September 26, 2020, 12:33:55 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Ravine Injuries  (Read 662 times)

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April 07, 2020, 08:23:52 AM
Read 662 times
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neni_cesty_zpet


Hello,
according to photo of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) I'd say that Kolevatov body was the cause of Zolotaryov's nasty chest deformity (5 broken ribs).

If I admit murder, then this injury was not caused by weapon but by some kind of either "jumping" on his chest by attacker(s) or more probably to me,
by throwing dead bodies down the pit, body onto body. Like throwing victims into mass murder.

The body of Ms Dubinina probably obtained it's fatal injuries in similar way.

Accidentally falling person would try to protect chest area with arms.

I'd say that these people were dead already (stiff) or almost dead in case of violent act.

Or something else happened: Thibeaux-Brignolles (or less probably Ms. Dubinina because they would probably not allow girl wandering alone in dark) was returning to "den" cause accidentally caused snow collapse and possibly fell onto them.

Such unfortunate event would cause deaths of people in "den" who would otherwise survive the whole accident and was able to return to ten in daylight.

For me, the whole Dyatlov pass incident was just a chain of unfortunate minor bad luck episodes which resulted in tragedy. Caused by low visibility, harsch environment, cold and something else (cuts in tent).


Any feedback welcomed.

April 07, 2020, 02:48:24 PM
Reply #1
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Jean Daniel Reuss


* 1° All-wooden bar
To break bones without leaving bloody marks it is simpler and more efficient to hit with a wooden bar (weight about 3 kilograms, length about 1 meter).
Something similar to this old method:



* 2°) Leaded bludgeon
The blunt objects mentioned by Eduard Tumanov could also be leaded bludgeons that could easily break a human skull. Length: about 80 centimetres, weight: about 2 kilograms.
See
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0

According to my scenario N°2 that I have started to propose here...
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=484.0
Reply #19

The attackers came from special settlement 41 and could equip themselves with what was left available in the houses of North 2.
The abandoned village North2 had been home to geologists prospecting in this area of the Urals.


Yuri Yudin wrote in his diary
..the 2nd Northern settlement. There so much - many houses, warehouses, premises, forgotten old vehicles, machine tools. Everything was abandoned since 1952...»


There was probably some lead pipe left there. It was then easy to make a leaded bludgeon by fitting a cut branch onto a piece of lead pipe.

A leaded bludgeon is better balanced than a simple solid wooden club. It is therefore even more effective for breaking bones (ribs like skulls) without leaving very visible marks on the skin.



Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

April 08, 2020, 07:50:54 AM
Reply #2
Online

Nigel Evans



April 09, 2020, 09:24:54 AM
Reply #3
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Jean Daniel Reuss



A counter argument - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.90

I am sorry, but I did not understand what you call your counter argument.
I did read the 114 Reply of the topic :
  Theories Discussion  --->  General Discussion   --->  The ravine deaths - a theory
    https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.90

  sarapuk 
March 28, 2019, 02:33:44 PM   Reply #15
 
"No Military vehicles caused their demise. What would such vehicles be doing in a Ravine where they can get stuck badly."

March 29, 2019, 03:17:58 PM      Reply #43
 "And of course such big vehicles would leave TRACKS and probably plenty of OIL traces."

And also with the same considerations
Reply #46,  Reply #47,  Reply #67  ................etc.


March 29, 2019, 03:29:18 PM  Reply #45
About : "Basics of slow movements in the snowpack  by
Peter Höller, BFW, Department Natural Hazards Rennweg 1 6020 Innsbruck"

"Another link to a scientific paper that most people wont get their head around or have time to learn. And I notice it uses a massive area of Mountain slope to do the analysis, nothing like the Ravine that we are concerned with  !  ? "

      WAB
April 01, 2019, 10:43:55 AM     Reply #66

" I will tell about vehicle: no wheel or caterpillar transport technics can reach in the winter to place where Dyatlov group because there depth of snow around makes 1 metre and more was lost. In 1959 there at all was not roads on distance more than 90 km (or 55 miles), and even now there is no constant clearing is expensive more close than the same distance. Even now there it is possible get only by snowmobile or on skis. But even the snowmobile in January and the beginning of February very often cannot pass many places to lifting, because there is abrupt slope and friable snow. In 1959 snowmobile yet was not."

I am adding that a light vehicle that might look like this one :



It is too light to fracture a human skull as it passes over it :

A heavier tracked vehicle like this:


It is much too wide to pass between the trees without leaving behind a large amount of broken branches that are highly visible and impossible to conceal.

 Widths of some Soviet battle tanks
T-34 :  3,00 mètres
T-54 :  3,27 mètres
T-55 :  3,84 mètres


 ***  Not visible :
https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/us-expert-on-russian-former-press-minister-death-i-ve-never-seen-a-fractured-hyoid-bone-on-someone-w/
     Because :
 Error 522 Ray ID: 5813a402f8facd9b • 2020-04-09 10:45:48 UTC
Connection timed out  -  Host error

 *** See also
Jean Daniel Reuss
March 07, 2020, 03:15:13 PM     Reply #17 
Re: Simplest Explanation is Often the Best
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=589.0
It is not very easy to run over people with a vehicle travelling on snow.
  In the case of DPI.
The vehicle must be able to pass between the trees.
The den is a depression where a vehicle is forced to maneuver slowly and carefully.

For Zorah.
It is too summarized to be understood.

I agree with Per Inge Ostermoen when he write :
Yeti / Snowman / Re: Exploring The Yeti Theory
« on: February 11, 2020, 09:45:07 AM »
 "These people (the nine hikers) were all murdered, and they were murdered by another group of humans who took great care to make it look like an accident."  Except that... NOT : "great care", simply : "care".

      cennetkusu
March 28, 2019, 09:16:59 PM  Reply #22
Re: The ravine deaths - a theory
" In other words, an attack was carried out in the cave like in a tent ... But this attack was intended to kill. That's why they ran away. But they were all caught in a very short time. "

      Eduard Tumanov
 https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0
    Theories Discussion -->  Altercation on the pass  --->  Altercation on the pass
 " Well known pathologist involved with Dyatlov case, Eduard Tumanov, who is participant in the current expedition with the prosecutor's office, is pushing a theory that hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders. He is not partial to any of the two versions. His observations are purely based on the autopsy reports and mainly what is missing from them..."

   I might add:
It is possible that Dubinina's tongue was cut out as a symbolic revenge by the aggressors because they had not supported her professions of faith as a good Soviet communist, which she made on 26 and 27 February 1959.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

April 09, 2020, 12:40:30 PM
Reply #4
Online

Nigel Evans


Hi Jean.
Just to clarify, you don't understand the proposition that the position of the bodies and their injuries fits with a narrative of something heavy rolling over the top of the den, or you don't agree?
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 02:25:17 AM by Nigel Evans »

April 10, 2020, 03:53:35 AM
Reply #5
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neni_cesty_zpet


Hello,

I just want to write few ideas about rav4 deaths. They either died outside den, probably near fire because i cannot believe they could be transported with such terrible
wounds from near tent. Or (less probable to me), they died in den but was then dragged %u0430 bit out of den (or to the den edge) because the den was supposed for someone else - last survivors and there was not enough space in den.
And noone really wants to rest with corpses around him.

from memories of Vladimir Askindazi:
"When we saw an empty den, it became very painful. Where are they? And they were close to the den, literally at arms length. Although for some reason it is publicized that they were a few meters away. This is not true. I remember well that the bodies lay nearby."

In both cases, it makes sense to drag them to one place nearby because they can provide valuable clothes/equipment and it's kind of burrying ritual as well. It's hard to strip when
corpses are stiff and spread in random places.

I am not sure if it was den or fire place that served as place of last agreement on return plan (Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin).

I personally lack any motive for murder by anyone.
Conserning military: No motive, no tracks of vehicles, no footsteps, no signs of weapon use.

I dont really get why so many people consider KGB as culprit. I dont believe this was their modus of operandi.
I can understand arrest by special agents and interrogation in warm office. To get as much informations as possible. And then jail them.
You can learn something about their methods from the book 'The Gulag Archipelago'.
It was not era of Stalin's madness anymore.

I am considering the possibility that they saw tornado approaching and hitting them later,
here's also source of wind directions in Ural which I' going to study: https://www.meteoblue.com/en/weather/historyclimate/climatemodelled/ural_russia_1488458
According to maps, their descent was in direction with common Ural winds, blowing from WSW to ENE. It was possibly impossible to them to walk towards 'Labaz' due to strong wind.




Note about den: When I write den, i mean 'den' - place with four seats. Probably a shallow snow hole because it's impossible to dig something larger without tool as WAB
already showed somewhere in this forum, he visited the place several times.

Feedback welcomed.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 10:03:21 AM by neni_cesty_zpet »

April 10, 2020, 03:14:20 PM
Reply #6
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hello,
according to photo of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) I'd say that Kolevatov body was the cause of Zolotaryov's nasty chest deformity (5 broken ribs).

If I admit murder, then this injury was not caused by weapon but by some kind of either "jumping" on his chest by attacker(s) or more probably to me,
by throwing dead bodies down the pit, body onto body. Like throwing victims into mass murder.

The body of Ms Dubinina probably obtained it's fatal injuries in similar way.

Accidentally falling person would try to protect chest area with arms.

I'd say that these people were dead already (stiff) or almost dead in case of violent act.

Or something else happened: Thibeaux-Brignolles (or less probably Ms. Dubinina because they would probably not allow girl wandering alone in dark) was returning to "den" cause accidentally caused snow collapse and possibly fell onto them.

Such unfortunate event would cause deaths of people in "den" who would otherwise survive the whole accident and was able to return to ten in daylight.

For me, the whole Dyatlov pass incident was just a chain of unfortunate minor bad luck episodes which resulted in tragedy. Caused by low visibility, harsch environment, cold and something else (cuts in tent).


Any feedback welcomed.

I would hardly describe the evacuation of The Tent as a minor bad luck episode. In fact all the Events were far from minor. More like a sequence of extraordinary events.
DB

April 10, 2020, 03:42:40 PM
Reply #7
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neni_cesty_zpet


What do you mean by evacuation of the tent?

Are you writing about deliberate movement of tent as part of making up of false 'evidence' by attackers?

But. There is photo of the group setting up their tent of slope. Or do you think it's something else?
There are footprints down from tent. Made by attackers?

I can hypothetically admit some coverup but not deliberate murdering.

But coverup of what?
Why not just say something like: "We are deeply sorry to all families, those students were on wrong place, we didn't know it and tragic happened." ?

I cannot undestand any possible motive neither for murdering nor for coverup  dunno1

April 10, 2020, 03:46:22 PM
Reply #8
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hello,
according to photo of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) I'd say that Kolevatov body was the cause of Zolotaryov's nasty chest deformity (5 broken ribs).

If I admit murder, then this injury was not caused by weapon but by some kind of either "jumping" on his chest by attacker(s) or more probably to me,
by throwing dead bodies down the pit, body onto body. Like throwing victims into mass murder.

The body of Ms Dubinina probably obtained it's fatal injuries in similar way.

Accidentally falling person would try to protect chest area with arms.

I'd say that these people were dead already (stiff) or almost dead in case of violent act.

Or something else happened: Thibeaux-Brignolles (or less probably Ms. Dubinina because they would probably not allow girl wandering alone in dark) was returning to "den" cause accidentally caused snow collapse and possibly fell onto them.

Such unfortunate event would cause deaths of people in "den" who would otherwise survive the whole accident and was able to return to ten in daylight.

For me, the whole Dyatlov pass incident was just a chain of unfortunate minor bad luck episodes which resulted in tragedy. Caused by low visibility, harsch environment, cold and something else (cuts in tent).


Any feedback welcomed.

Regarding the serious Injuries. This is a topic that crops up a lot throughout this Forum. The Autopsy Reports do not state what actually caused the serious Injuries. We get some vague statements ie FREEZING CONDITIONS and FALLS etc but nothing conclusive.
DB

April 10, 2020, 03:51:09 PM
Reply #9
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
What do you mean by evacuation of the tent?

Are you writing about deliberate movement of tent as part of making up of false 'evidence' by attackers?

But. There is photo of the group setting up their tent of slope. Or do you think it's something else?
There are footprints down from tent. Made by attackers?

I can hypothetically admit some coverup but not deliberate murdering.

But coverup of what?
Why not just say something like: "We are deeply sorry to all families, those students were on wrong place, we didn't know it and tragic happened." ?

I cannot undestand any possible motive neither for murdering nor for coverup  dunno1


The indications are that all of The Dyatlov Group left The Tent at the same time and that they did so in various stages of undress. Suggesting some kind of dramatic event causing them to do so.
DB