Poison mutant schrooms

[jarrfan]

I have come to the conclusion as many of you have that the incident occurred at the tent site and the mangling of the hikers bodies was at that point. My question is: What is the possibility that the "Schrooms" seeds were carried by the wind and ingested per nasal, causing severe allergic reaction on say only half of the hikers, the other hikers not being affected by the allergens, were attempting to calm the affected hikers and the injuries sustained were the result of powerful fighting by hikers in an allergic prism of severe anxiety, thinking the other hikers were trying to kill them?

I could say the say the same for the 1993 event, if they were "dusted" with the schrooms allergens, some beating their heads on the rocks, running around, etc. It sounds like  the Valentina girl was not affected. The first death by the gentleman may have been severe reaction, the rest reaction to this on a smaller scale.

Just throwing it out there for digestion or rejection. Jarrfan PS: If this is not feasible, I must concur with the firey ball theory....

I have watched several videos of reindeer eating mushrooms and digging them out of the snow, so they seem to be available in winter also.

Another aspect after reading the effects of the mushrooms on humans gives them "super human strength." The schrooms article herein details that gave them an adrenaline rush which could have led to the freak incident.

The article about schrooms in the  theory section also says the seeds or spores adhere to pine needles. If the wind came up fiercely and gathered then deposited the spores on the hiker's, how would they know until after breathing them in they would begin the hysteria? There would be nothing left in their bodies to determine this.

Jarrfan

[Loose}{Cannon]

It's more likely in my opinion that the rye risks they had gave them ergot poisoning.

[Star man]

I have come to the conclusion as many of you have that the incident occurred at the tent site and the mangling of the hikers bodies was at that point. My question is: What is the possibility that the "Schrooms" seeds were carried by the wind and ingested per nasal, causing severe allergic reaction on say only half of the hikers, the other hikers not being affected by the allergens, were attempting to calm the affected hikers and the injuries sustained were the result of powerful fighting by hikers in an allergic prism of severe anxiety, thinking the other hikers were trying to kill them?

I could say the say the same for the 1993 event, if they were "dusted" with the schrooms allergens, some beating their heads on the rocks, running around, etc. It sounds like  the Valentina girl was not affected. The first death by the gentleman may have been severe reaction, the rest reaction to this on a smaller scale.

Just throwing it out there for digestion or rejection. Jarrfan PS: If this is not feasible, I must concur with the firey ball theory....

I have watched several videos of reindeer eating mushrooms and digging them out of the snow, so they seem to be available in winter also.

Another aspect after reading the effects of the mushrooms on humans gives them "super human strength." The schrooms article herein details that gave them an adrenaline rush which could have led to the freak incident.

The article about schrooms in the  theory section also says the seeds or spores adhere to pine needles. If the wind came up fiercely and gathered then deposited the spores on the hiker's, how would they know until after breathing them in they would begin the hysteria? There would be nothing left in their bodies to determine this.

Jarrfan

The problem that I have with this sort of theory is the fact that the group made clear and logical attempts to survive.  Why would there be clear logical behaviour mixed with the effects of shrooms or other pathological substances?

Regards

Star man

[Loose}{Cannon]

Their actions dont seems rational at all to me.   

[jarrfan]

I would have to guess only 3 or 4 of them were actually affected by the spores, The rest were not and in attempting to calm of the affected ones, the affected ones turned on the unaffected in a hysterical panic thinking they were trying to kill them by holding them down, and with their adrenaline rush, they managed to cause significant bodily harm. Once this had happened and they all were forced out of the tent, then perhaps the effects diminished and they realized what they had done and tried to build fire, get back to the tent, etc. The ones down in the stream were there to get away from the others for fear they were still under the influence and were in terrible shape, but managed to get to the 2 under the tree and take their clothing knowing they had died hoping against hope the 4 in the ravine might have a chance.

Perhaps the spores only affected the three that had gone outside the tent when they were clothed and the wind carried the spores only to them.

If it were a reaction to the mushrooms such as an allergic reaction, it may not have affected all of the group if they were in separate parts of the area when the wind blew the spores over.


I just read the 1993 account and the one fellow with bleeding ears  and nose may have had a fatal reaction to spores, the others panicked but were also affected with the hallinogen effects and as Valentia said, "banging her head on rocks," and others hiding behind  rocks from everyone. It is from this scenario that I would consider the mushroom spores in the 1959 mystery.

[Star man]

I think the scene at the tent for sure is chaotic.  There is no clear pattern to it.  This could be associated with the effects of spores or ergot poisoning.  But the level of chaos and disorder can also be explained by fear and panic and the presence of a significant threat. 

Several aspects in particular are of interest with respect to the spores or poisoning:

Firstly it is unlikely that all members of the group would have been affected by poisoning/spores, yet all but two of the group left without shoes.  Also, if it was poisoning why were they not affected sooner in the trip?  If it was spores when would these spores likely be released and carried on the wind - are they linked to seasonal processes?  Wouldn't they have been significantly diluted?

How long do effects of ergot poisoning or spores last?

Ivanov reported that one person left the tent in socks only, urinated and then the foot prints proceeded down the slope.  Why would someone go for a pee in their socks and then never return to the tent.

At the cedar considerable efforts were made to survive. climbing the tree, clearing branches to look back toward the tent. Building the fire.  Cutting down fir tree branches 20m around the cedar. 

The rav 4 cutting the clothes from their dead friends to re-use and enhance their own chances of survival.  Using the clothes and tree branches to insulate themselves from the cold ground.

The injuries of three of the rav 4 are significant and could not have been done by other humans. 

If they fought each other under a drug induced rage why were none of them stabbed with the knives they had, or the axes?  The knives were certainly pulled from their sheaths and in three instances used to cut the tent.  Why did they not stab each other?

The way the dead bodies were treated respectfully indicates logical conscious action.

The above are some of the reasons that I think the poisoning scenario is unlikely.

Regards

Star man

[jarrfan]

The spores I am not certain how long they would affect someone or how long after contact or nasal air contact it would take to have an effect. The treeline spoken of I believe there were some pines? It is not clear what kind of trees they were but pines are what the spores attach themselves to. So if they were pine trees they might have had spores. When the wind came up they could have been blown to the hiker's tent and breathed in by several members making them disoriented. This as all of the theories is just a theory from looking at the schrooms theory about the super human strength by partakers of the mushrooms.

The other consideration is that if there were some king of ball lightening stroke on these people or a rocket force energy blast, there should be evidence of that in the entire area like melting of snow or burning of the people's clothing where they were hurt.

I will keep on reading and gathering information.

[Loose}{Cannon]

I think the scene at the tent for sure is chaotic.  There is no clear pattern to it.  This could be associated with the effects of spores or ergot poisoning.  But the level of chaos and disorder can also be explained by fear and panic and the presence of a significant threat. 

Several aspects in particular are of interest with respect to the spores or poisoning:

Firstly it is unlikely that all members of the group would have been affected by poisoning/spores, yet all but two of the group left without shoes.  Also, if it was poisoning why were they not affected sooner in the trip?  If it was spores when would these spores likely be released and carried on the wind - are they linked to seasonal processes?  Wouldn't they have been significantly diluted?

How long do effects of ergot poisoning or spores last?

Ivanov reported that one person left the tent in socks only, urinated and then the foot prints proceeded down the slope.  Why would someone go for a pee in their socks and then never return to the tent.

At the cedar considerable efforts were made to survive. climbing the tree, clearing branches to look back toward the tent. Building the fire.  Cutting down fir tree branches 20m around the cedar. 

The rav 4 cutting the clothes from their dead friends to re-use and enhance their own chances of survival.  Using the clothes and tree branches to insulate themselves from the cold ground.

The injuries of three of the rav 4 are significant and could not have been done by other humans. 

If they fought each other under a drug induced rage why were none of them stabbed with the knives they had, or the axes?  The knives were certainly pulled from their sheaths and in three instances used to cut the tent.  Why did they not stab each other?

The way the dead bodies were treated respectfully indicates logical conscious action.

The above are some of the reasons that I think the poisoning scenario is unlikely.

Regards

Star man

But they did have shoes....  Wool velenki boots.   Much warmer then their water logged and frozen leather boots.   

I find it hard to believe that the 'urin tracks' didn't get mixed in with the rest of the tracks around the tent made by 9 people trampling around.  They counted 8 sets and assumed 9.......  Just how much faith can we actually put on a whole mess of tracks there is little to no information about?   

In these days in back woods Russia, it wasn't uncommon for ergot tanted bread to be made from grain that was improperly stored etc.  They bought (I think 2) large sacks of rye rusks, and not all of them may have been contaminated.  All it would take is for one bad rusk to be share among a few.  This would have been completely unintentional, and even the seller of said grain and the baker would not have known.

Interestingly enough, several reports of the tent state the rusks were tossed all over the tent.  In other words, they were no longer stored within the sack they came in, and nor were they eaten by animals over the course of a month before the tent was found.   I believe if an animal had found it, they would have ate it. Since it was not eaten, one can only assume they were scattered all over the tent by the DP group.   

[Morski]

Yep, I also think there is a good probability, that whatever triggered the whole ordeal, might have been caused by food contamination of some sort, as Loose Cannon also is pointing.

Jarrfan, you might be interested - one of the real cases of ergot poisoning discussed briefly here:

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=438.0

[Star man]

The spores I am not certain how long they would affect someone or how long after contact or nasal air contact it would take to have an effect. The treeline spoken of I believe there were some pines? It is not clear what kind of trees they were but pines are what the spores attach themselves to. So if they were pine trees they might have had spores. When the wind came up they could have been blown to the hiker's tent and breathed in by several members making them disoriented. This as all of the theories is just a theory from looking at the schrooms theory about the super human strength by partakers of the mushrooms.

The other consideration is that if there were some king of ball lightening stroke on these people or a rocket force energy blast, there should be evidence of that in the entire area like melting of snow or burning of the people's clothing where they were hurt.

I will keep on reading and gathering information.

I think it is worth further research.  The more information you can gather the better.  Would be interested in your findings.

Regards
Star man

[Star man]

I think the scene at the tent for sure is chaotic.  There is no clear pattern to it.  This could be associated with the effects of spores or ergot poisoning.  But the level of chaos and disorder can also be explained by fear and panic and the presence of a significant threat. 

Several aspects in particular are of interest with respect to the spores or poisoning:

Firstly it is unlikely that all members of the group would have been affected by poisoning/spores, yet all but two of the group left without shoes.  Also, if it was poisoning why were they not affected sooner in the trip?  If it was spores when would these spores likely be released and carried on the wind - are they linked to seasonal processes?  Wouldn't they have been significantly diluted?

How long do effects of ergot poisoning or spores last?

Ivanov reported that one person left the tent in socks only, urinated and then the foot prints proceeded down the slope.  Why would someone go for a pee in their socks and then never return to the tent.

At the cedar considerable efforts were made to survive. climbing the tree, clearing branches to look back toward the tent. Building the fire.  Cutting down fir tree branches 20m around the cedar. 

The rav 4 cutting the clothes from their dead friends to re-use and enhance their own chances of survival.  Using the clothes and tree branches to insulate themselves from the cold ground.

The injuries of three of the rav 4 are significant and could not have been done by other humans. 

If they fought each other under a drug induced rage why were none of them stabbed with the knives they had, or the axes?  The knives were certainly pulled from their sheaths and in three instances used to cut the tent.  Why did they not stab each other?

The way the dead bodies were treated respectfully indicates logical conscious action.

The above are some of the reasons that I think the poisoning scenario is unlikely.

Regards

Star man

But they did have shoes....  Wool velenki boots.   Much warmer then their water logged and frozen leather boots.   

I find it hard to believe that the 'urin tracks' didn't get mixed in with the rest of the tracks around the tent made by 9 people trampling around.  They counted 8 sets and assumed 9.......  Just how much faith can we actually put on a whole mess of tracks there is little to no information about?   

In these days in back woods Russia, it wasn't uncommon for ergot tanted bread to be made from grain that was improperly stored etc.  They bought (I think 2) large sacks of rye rusks, and not all of them may have been contaminated.  All it would take is for one bad rusk to be share among a few.  This would have been completely unintentional, and even the seller of said grain and the baker would not have known.

Interestingly enough, several reports of the tent state the rusks were tossed all over the tent.  In other words, they were no longer stored within the sack they came in, and nor were they eaten by animals over the course of a month before the tent was found.   I believe if an animal had found it, they would have ate it. Since it was not eaten, one can only assume they were scattered all over the tent by the DP group.

Yes some had boots on but not many.

The foot prints at the tent are pretty messed up I agree.

Also I suppose it is possible that one or more of the rusks could have been tainted. I still think the pattern of events at the tent fits better with panic rather than poison.  Just my opinion but there is a large range of possibilities.

Are there examples of the effects of ergot poisoning that could be used for comparison?

The rusks scattered around the tent is interesting.  Why?  This probably needs further thought.

Regards
Star man

[Loose}{Cannon]

. I still think the pattern of events at the tent fits better with panic rather than poison. 

Nobody on LSD has ever panicked?   

[Loose}{Cannon]

Not many had velenki boot?   

Pretty sure it was 6 or 7 of them. 

[Star man]

Not many had velenki boot?   

Pretty sure it was 6 or 7 of them.

Ah yes. I was meaning not many were wearing their boots when they were found.  Didn’t Semyon have shoes, Thibo had boots, Rustem had one Boot and the others were bare foot or had socks?

Regards
Star man

[Loose}{Cannon]

Sure they were

[Star man]

. I still think the pattern of events at the tent fits better with panic rather than poison. 

Nobody on LSD has ever panicked?   

I think that if they had been affected by ergot poisoning then it would certainly affect their behaviour and could lead to paranoia or panic.  The question is could poisoning explain the context of all of the events at the tent, the slope, the cedar, the ravine and in particular the significant injuries of the rav four? 

How does ergot poisoning connect all of the events?  For example there is clear evidence that those at the cedar and those at the ravine worked together as a team in order to survive.  So how did the significant injuries happen?

Regards

Star man

[Loose}{Cannon]

Poisoning doesn't have to be the specific reason for everything....  Perhaps just the catalyst. 

But if I took a quick stab at it.....   The three without velenki, Igor and the two yuries are effected. They fall increasingly more delusional and paranoid from low infrasonic and sonic frequencies. Convinced they will die in a rock/snow slide unlesss they get off that slope immediately, they flee towards the treeline.  Igor falls first and never makes it to the cedar, while the two Yuries do and build the fire cutting themselves up in the process of getting the dry wood, and unintentionally burning themselves unable to feel pain due to borderline frostbite, and eventually die. In an attempt to find them, the remaining 6 that were dressed better leave the tent. Rustem cracks his head by falling on the third Rocky step on the way down, 3 of the RAV4 fall into a boulder filled ravine, 1 stayed with the injured while Zina attempts to return to the tent for supplies or to save herself.  Zina falls, and subsequently the RAV4 do also. 

How's that? 

[Loose}{Cannon]

[Star man]

Poisoning doesn't have to be the specific reason for everything....  Perhaps just the catalyst. 

But if I took a quick stab at it.....   The three without velenki, Igor and the two yuries are effected. They fall increasingly more delusional and paranoid from low infrasonic and sonic frequencies. Convinced they will die in a rock/snow slide unlesss they get off that slope immediately, they flee towards the treeline.  Igor falls first and never makes it to the cedar, while the two Yuries do and build the fire cutting themselves up in the process of getting the dry wood, and unintentionally burning themselves unable to feel pain due to borderline frostbite, and eventually die. In an attempt to find them, the remaining 6 that were dressed better leave the tent. Rustem cracks his head by falling on the third Rocky step on the way down, 3 of the RAV4 fall into a boulder filled ravine, 1 stayed with the injured while Zina attempts to return to the tent for supplies or to save herself.  Zina falls, and subsequently the RAV4 do also. 

How's that?

Interesting - but I would ask why the 6 would have left Rustem on the slope?  Also, how Rustem managed to sustain diffuse bleeding in both temporal muscles from the fall?  Also why they appear to have sustained injuries to knuckles consistent with fist fighting and then another question would be what is the likelihood of the rav four all falling together and sustaining their injuries with no injuries to limbs, wrists or ankles.  In particular look at Thibo’s head injury- could he have fallen and sustained that injury with no other significant bodily injuries? 

Regards

Star man

[Loose}{Cannon]

They could have planned to retrieve him on the way back to the tent after locating the others.  It's entirely possible Zina stayed with him only attempting to return to the tent after he died.

There are dozens of ways to fill in the blanks, but I wouldn't get too lost in the weeds on them. 

[Star man]

They could have planned to retrieve him on the way back to the tent after locating the others.  It's entirely possible Zina stayed with him only attempting to return to the tent after he died.

There are dozens of ways to fill in the blanks, but I wouldn't get too lost in the weeds on them.

The difficult thing to explain though are the injuries?

Regards
Star man

[Loose}{Cannon]

I don't think it would be the first time someone fell and broke something, especially if into a boulder filled ravine at a height where WAB suggests it happened.

[Star man]

I don't think it would be the first time someone fell and broke something, especially if into a boulder filled ravine at a height where WAB suggests it happened.

This is where it gets interesting though.  Not that long ago I would have been making the same argument.  However if you look at the details of Thibo’s injuries for instance there is only his crush skull injury and a bruise on his arm.  No other significant injuries.  If he had simply fell he would needed to have landed such that he smashed the side of his head with great force whilst not sustaining any other significant injuries?  On the same measure the impact of the fall caused massive chest injuries to Lyuda and Semyon but again no other injuries.  It just doesn’t add up.

Regards
Star man

[jarrfan]

As far as mushroom allergy or poisoning, it says clearly in the theory section that the mushroom effects are delusion AND superhuman strength, even the reindeer who enjoy them leap into the air thinking they can fly. The superhuman strength is why I  would consider 3 of them being under the influence and injuring the rest. The Rye does not say anything about superhuman strength although delusion and hallucinations are part of it. The effects can come on as early as 20 minutes  and last up to 8 hours depending.

I still wonder about what the digging before the trip began was all about and if the guys were keeping secrets from the girls, thus one of the reasons they were arguing among the guys. I am not clear if there was going to be a New Year celebration by Russian students....

Thank you for responding... Jarrfan.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Welp, they had to dig out the area where they pitched the tent..... This is normally when they started writing in the diaries.  They also had to dig around for mineral rock specimens for the University.   

[Loose}{Cannon]

I don't think it would be the first time someone fell and broke something, especially if into a boulder filled ravine at a height where WAB suggests it happened.

This is where it gets interesting though.  Not that long ago I would have been making the same argument.  However if you look at the details of Thibo’s injuries for instance there is only his crush skull injury and a bruise on his arm.  No other significant injuries.  If he had simply fell he would needed to have landed such that he smashed the side of his head with great force whilst not sustaining any other significant injuries?  On the same measure the impact of the fall caused massive chest injuries to Lyuda and Semyon but again no other injuries.  It just doesn’t add up.

Regards
Star man

I don't agree with the philosophy that all injuries should be similar or the same.  Why didn't the other two have head injuries?  I'm sure there are plenty of people throughout history that have fallen on rocks and only broke their head. 

Another story....   A kid I knew in 9th grade was screwing around up in a tree near the bus stop waiting for the morning bus to take us to school.  Yeah, he fell......  No broken bones from a significant height, but a branch cought his testicles and ripped one out.  Hell of a way to get a nickname 'one nut'. 

Maybe he slid down the embankment head first into a boulder?  In my opinion, your body is a free falling ragdoll and how you land be what injuries you sustain are intimately related and 100% luck of the draw.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Another kid (I didn't know) in highschool dove into an old water filled rock quarry and died.... If I recall correctly, he didn't clear the protruding rocks in the cliff face and broke his head and neck..... No arms, legs, or ribs.

[Star man]

I don't think it would be the first time someone fell and broke something, especially if into a boulder filled ravine at a height where WAB suggests it happened.

This is where it gets interesting though.  Not that long ago I would have been making the same argument.  However if you look at the details of Thibo’s injuries for instance there is only his crush skull injury and a bruise on his arm.  No other significant injuries.  If he had simply fell he would needed to have landed such that he smashed the side of his head with great force whilst not sustaining any other significant injuries?  On the same measure the impact of the fall caused massive chest injuries to Lyuda and Semyon but again no other injuries.  It just doesn’t add up.

Regards
Star man

I don't agree with the philosophy that all injuries should be similar or the same.  Why didn't the other two have head injuries?  I'm sure there are plenty of people throughout history that have fallen on rocks and only broke their head. 

Another story....   A kid I knew in 9th grade was screwing around up in a tree near the bus stop waiting for the morning bus to take us to school.  Yeah, he fell......  No broken bones from a significant height, but a branch cought his testicles and ripped one out.  Hell of a way to get a nickname 'one nut'. 

Maybe he slid down the embankment head first into a boulder?  In my opinion, your body is a free falling ragdoll and how you land be what injuries you sustain are intimately related and 100% luck of the draw.

It still sounds like the guy who fell had multiple injuries- broken bones and lacerations at least to his scrotum.  Ouch!!!

Regards
Star man

[Star man]

Another kid (I didn't know) in highschool dove into an old water filled rock quarry and died.... If I recall correctly, he didn't clear the protruding rocks in the cliff face and broke his head and neck..... No arms, legs, or ribs.

.

In this instance did the boy hit his head on the rocky outcrops and then hit the water?  The water would prevented further bodily injuries?

Regards
Star man

[Star man]

As far as mushroom allergy or poisoning, it says clearly in the theory section that the mushroom effects are delusion AND superhuman strength, even the reindeer who enjoy them leap into the air thinking they can fly. The superhuman strength is why I  would consider 3 of them being under the influence and injuring the rest. The Rye does not say anything about superhuman strength although delusion and hallucinations are part of it. The effects can come on as early as 20 minutes  and last up to 8 hours depending.

I still wonder about what the digging before the trip began was all about and if the guys were keeping secrets from the girls, thus one of the reasons they were arguing among the guys. I am not clear if there was going to be a New Year celebration by Russian students....

Thank you for responding... Jarrfan.

I doubt that when they say super human strength they meant able to lift over 800kg?  Because that is the minimum amount of strength that would be needed to inflict Lyuda flail chest.

Regards
Star man