September 28, 2020, 12:36:15 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Russian speakers: "Compelling unknown / overwhelming force" - mistranslated?  (Read 1492 times)

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October 16, 2019, 01:35:09 AM
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garybonds


In english language writing about the Dyatlov Pass Incident it is often stated that the official investigation concluded that the Dyatlov group succumbed to either a "compelling unknown force" or "overwhelming force".

But reading through the Resolution to close the case, from which I believe this originates, I wonder if something hasnt been lost in translation?

The original choice of words in Russian seems to be "стихийная сила".

I am not a Russian speaker so the following observations are from Google Translate and dictionaries online. In other words, I need help from Russian speakers to sort this out.

Google translate suggests two translations for"стихийная сила": "elemental force" or "force of nature". This search on The Russian Free Dictionary seems to imply that "стихийная" has implications of "nature" and is related to e.g. phrases like "natural disaster".

What I'm wondering is if the authors of the report were more or less trying to convey "death from exposure", but with an uncommon turn of phrase?

« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 03:11:23 AM by garybonds »

November 06, 2019, 12:47:16 PM
Reply #1
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
In english language writing about the Dyatlov Pass Incident it is often stated that the official investigation concluded that the Dyatlov group succumbed to either a "compelling unknown force" or "overwhelming force".

But reading through the Resolution to close the case, from which I believe this originates, I wonder if something hasnt been lost in translation?

The original choice of words in Russian seems to be "стихийная сила".

I am not a Russian speaker so the following observations are from Google Translate and dictionaries online. In other words, I need help from Russian speakers to sort this out.

Google translate suggests two translations for"стихийная сила": "elemental force" or "force of nature". This search on The Russian Free Dictionary seems to imply that "стихийная" has implications of "nature" and is related to e.g. phrases like "natural disaster".

What I'm wondering is if the authors of the report were more or less trying to convey "death from exposure", but with an uncommon turn of phrase?

This is a good point you raise. Iam surprised that it hasnt cropped up more often in this Forum. A lot can be lost in Translation. I know only to well after investigating and actually searching for a famous Pirates buried Treasure in England. One clue was in the form of a letter written in Dutch. And I deduced 2 possible outcomes. The Treasure has not been found, YET. 
DB

December 21, 2019, 06:41:02 PM
Reply #2
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mk


Good question!  Please help us, Russian speakers!  Online searches include the suggestions "act of God" and "spontaneous strength."

April 12, 2020, 04:13:05 PM
Reply #3
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vb64


Hi, All.

I think, Google translation as "elemental force" is correct.

'стихия' means the active and hostile actions of nature. For example, strong wind and rain, storm at the sea, big forest fire, etc. All of these can be called 'стихия'.

Also, the 'стихия' word can be used for unplanned human actions: 'стихия' of the love - unplanned, fired emotion.

It is also worth noting that the expression "elemental force, which tourists were not able to overcome" in this context is unclear and rarely used in official documents.

In the context of this document, it sounds incomprehensible and mysterious, including for Russian-speaking readers.
WBR, Vitaly

April 13, 2020, 03:31:56 AM
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neni_cesty_zpet


In the context of this document, it sounds incomprehensible and mysterious, including for Russian-speaking readers.

That pretty much fits this case, "incomprehensible and mysterious", doesn't it?

August 08, 2020, 08:09:49 AM
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Jean Daniel Reuss


....................
Also, the "стихийная" word can be used for unplanned human actions..........
It is also worth noting that the expression "elemental force, which tourists were not able to overcome" in this context is unclear and rarely used in official documents.
In the context of this document, it sounds incomprehensible and mysterious, including for Russian-speaking readers.

It is clear that the Russian word "стихийная"  is not clear even for Russians.

In supporting this statement the automatic translator DeepL.com offers 20 possible translations for  "стихийная сила".
I also read other Russian-French dictionaries in print.

There are alternative meanings that are indicated. For "стихийная сила" there are also:
 "manslaughter", "man-made force".....etc.

So, "overwhelming force" can be also loosely translated as "fierce and relentless attackers."

With "стихийная", Lev Ivanov, who can be considered as a fine and subtle jurist, has wisely found the right word, who does not annoy anyone, who does not mean much, but which is not a lie.

Per Inge Oestmoen, once again, has found the correct explanation :

"I strongly suspect that Lev Ivanov understood quite well what caused the Dyatlov pass tragedy, and that the perpetrators of the crime were human, not aliens. He did everything he could. It might be that, if he had disobeyed his orders and performed a full and serious examination of the bodies and the injuries, " --->

Per Inge Oestmoen goes on to add :  It might be that...
---> "...his life would soon be cut short by some form of "accident.""

But Per Inge Oestmoen may be a pessimist...to tell the truth I do not know, but personally I would have rather added: There would have been...
---> "...various kinds of bullying and inconveniences for him and his family" 

I did not get anything useful from my reading of Lev Ivanov's and Stanislav Bogomolov's unspecific articles :

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=473.0  ->  (Mystery of the fireballs, Lev Ivanov, "Leninskiy Put", Kustanay, 22 and 24 November 1990)
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=638.0  ->  (Mystery of the fireballs, Stanislav Bogomolov, "Uralskiy Rabochiy", 8, 10, 11, 12 July 1990)
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=642.0  ->  (Interview with Stanislav Bogomolov,  December 6, 2019)

However, I approve this final passage from Lev Ivanov's text :

"... I trace this direct connection: real people are formed in such extreme situations. Courage, valor, strenght, will, nobility - all this is the result of a long, from a young age, formation of character, nature....... After all, when in February we came to the big cedar tree, near which the hikers tried to make a fire and carefully examined and compared everything, we were struck by the courage and stamina of the young people who fought for their lives and the lives of their comrades..."

Yes, the hikers fought with great fists against relentless and ferocious attackers !

Note: I noticed a very mysterious phrase in Bogomolov that could perhaps make you think of an Suffocating Device.
 "I think they died from suffocation, but did not freeze."
 "Думаю, они погибли от удушья, а не замерзли."
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.