The "Window" in the cedar tree

[Ziljoe]

[/quote]

I didn't noticed that fact until now, from Slobtsov's testimony:

From the tent in the direction of the wind, i.e. in the direction where there were traces of people's feet, at a distance of about 0.5-1 m, we found several slippers from different pairs, and ski caps and other small objects were scattered.

Charles

Yep, that's the whole point and has been part of the mystery for years. I'll need to find the links but if memory serves me right , there are reports of bare feet outside the tent , standing and meeting together, there was no sign of a rush. There seemed to be some activity before they chose to , or were forced to go to the Ceder.  Zolotaryov has odd socks under his felt boots and there are some sneakers etc and jackets lying about. ( But some reports differ) . One of the jackets was reported to be in a hole of the tent. This has been suggested to be block the hole for the unused stove.

So the Wolverine spray is the suggestion for discarding the items.

A snow slip or slide escalating making them decide to move faster and just move from that area.

Or some people with a gun telling them to go down the slope . ( Although I would have thought they would of told them all to undress .)


Re: The footprints, the footprints ...

Charles ,There are a number of contradictions between Boris and Sharavin in this link below and I believe they reference they guy you talked about that had control of the search. Also Sharavin says he takes a diary but Boris says they took nothing.  Let me know what you think.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=922.msg18381#msg18381

[Manti]

Just some scattered thoughts.... they did lose the flashlight on the way down. Either lost it or intentionally discarded it, but I think it's unlikely it would fail exactly during this short trip. So it's not the case they only lost things near the tent and cedar.


Plus, those things near the tent might have been blown out of it by the wind.



Regarding the skis that leave no trace, here is a demonstration



I call these broad ski as opposed to the modern narrow "Alpine" ski. They are in use to this day by native people in Siberia. However, it does look like they leave a trace.



Also wanted to make a related point... If we suppose the attackers had these broad skis, they were probably natives. For many reasons they have been ruled out during the investigation, but here's an additional one. They wouldn't leave the corpses lying out there like that. It's really bad, because when spring comes, the bears will find them. And the last thing you want is your local bears  getting a taste for human meat.

[Charles]

nothing here

[GlennM]

.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Interesting as always Charles.

I don't think you can write falling as a cause of death in this case. The bruises , marks on hands and legs are superficial. Some these injuries could of happened during their previous day's , setting up camp, cutting logs and so on.

The injuries on the limbs are consistent with falling, and given the information and items found at the scene I don't think anything else could be written. I'm no expert but if these are injuries from a fight for your life , I would expect to see a lot more broken bones on the skull and damage to the hands.

I don't think we can exclude the fact that the ravine 4 were found under hard snow of several feet. The injuries to the ravine 4 are consistent with a snow collapse. If you take into consideration the damage to the heads, they are on the right side as you point out. Given the broken ribs and the non damage to their left side,it would suggest a blow from above. IE, a large weight of snow.

The marks on the others are similar to other hyperthermia cases, especially when fighting to survive in the last moments. Tunneling against the snow and falling on knuckles. Limbs are freezing up, there may have been crawling on hands(closed fists) and knees unable to stand.

I'm not disagreeing but there is little supporting evidence for them to conclude anything other than accident. There's no knife wounds, no bullets, broken jaws/eye sockets, broken fingers ,wrists or knuckles . There's nothing to suggest there was a fight to the death. It could be argued that there was a gun , to stop them fighting back, but at some point I would have expected them to fight back. Using teeth and breaking their own bones in the process.

So with the evidence of the autopsy, I can't see what else could be concluded by the examiner.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Slobodin's skull had a fracture. This may have been caused by the freezing of the fluid in the exposed neck whilst the hat insulated the top part of the skull . There is some evidence that this happens in medical research.

The injuries are minor with regards to the falls or blunt instrumen. The only injures suggesting cause of death are the ribs and the two skull fractures. One in slobodin's and the other in Brigionol.

3 of which were in the ravine.

Why did they not just cut their necks or strangle them?

And yes , you were informed by Igor b that the violent death meant murder, suicide and accident.

If there was some cover up or pressure why did they even bother to expose so much detail in the autopsy?

[Ziljoe]

Charles
PS, hold my beer, I'm off to Google "see Afanasiev's works on Russian fairytales"

[Ziljoe]

Charles,

I can't see anything about snow caves/holes with regards to , "see Afanasiev's works on Russian fairytales"

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Hi Charles,

I might be communicating poorly. There is a possibility that they found a natural snow hole/ cave , it's how snow drifts in undulating land Scape . I don't understand your links , it does not mean anything I say is fact or correct . But it would be prudent to.reflect , perhaps?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Charles,

It's not a competition , you're quoting an old fairytale book as evidence? Whether you like it or not, snow caves/holes exist in real life, they can form naturally or be man made. I'm not sure if you are visualising something that is completely different .

You also re edit your posts when you get things wrong, almost like the case files and diaries perhaps ?

There's no blunt objects , they are in your imagination ? Anyway ,give us the explanation to the injuries....

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Charles,

There is evidence for it, there's broken ribs and fractures, 4 people found under 2 meters of hard snow. Snow that was different to the surrounding snow. This would indicate that the snow went through a process . The injuries are consistent with a land slip/collapse. This could be earth , sand, snow . In this instance it looks like snow.

  There is mention in the DPI of it being a possibility. I won't say where as it was already available to you. You even select what you read and ignore other people's ideas and then plagiarize others when it suits you. You didn't even know what accidental meant in the autopsy.

As of yet ,you haven't come up with an explanation for the injuries , you have also criticised every other persons suggestions whilst changing your own hypothesis.

So, I put it to you to explain the injuries, how were they done ? Why were the bodies found in these locations? Why did they leave the tent? What instrument caused the injuries? What broke the ribs? Why were the ravine four under so much snow? Just facts Charles , let's see them.

[GlennM]

Such rumblings! Here is a bit of a diversion.  Nurse Solter claimed to receive and wash the deceased. What I am unclear on is what happened next. Were they transported out for burial, or were they returned to the forest for rediscovery? If the latter is true, that is telling.

[Ehtnisba]

Hello Manti

I think it's quite possible that they were "lost" for the last days.

They climbed up to the pass, then descended back down to Auspiya instead of continuing on to Lozva. This means losing a day.

Yes but they descended back to leave a part of the charge at the storage. It was a rational decision. And progression was easier after loosing weight to carry. It was a very legit decision. It was not being lost in terms of geography.  Maybe lost in terms of strength and stamina, but not lost as they could no longer orient themselves.

And they had no idea where they were.

No, they knew their position. Perfectly. They set up the storage at the correct position to easily find it after the loop when walking back from Otorten.

And then they went to the Lozva valley while their storage was in the Auspiya valley.

Hard to believe it was by mistake. They were above the pass. When facing the slope, the storage was on their right, and they left tracks of a nine hikers group, fresh tracks from the previous day. And even if a storm erased the tracks, the direction was easy: to the right. Reaching the storage was not a complex maneuver, it was easy.

And if they were in a storm with low visibility why walk to the unknown? The partial footprints went straight to the cedar, no curve as if they deviated, straight path.

I think this was either a mistake, or they couldn't go to Auspiya for some reason.

But the storage was at the same distance and downslope as well. If they split, two groups would have arrived at the same time at the cedar and at the storage. The one at the storage finding fire wood, sausages, shoes, torches... The storage was not miles away, not on the other side of high mountains, not at walking days of distance, it was just nearby. And at the location of their previous camp.



The only "action" needed to reach the storage was walking down the slope "to the right". Because the tent was at an higher altitude than the pass, they couldn't miss the Auspiya valley and the storage, it was the easiest task to perform. They face down the slope, they walk to the right, they get to the storage in a few minutes. Because, actually, we talk about missing the Auspiya valley... indeed! They walked in the opposite direction... they missed a valley!

So we have again to destroy them as human beings... to deprive them of all qualities, to the level of forgetting the right and the left or even of loosing memory of their equipment left at the nearby storage. And suddenly giving these qualities back to light fire in a storm, to build a den, to cooperate, work, etc.

Because they were not on flat ground, they had the slope as a help to guide them: coming back on their steps was at right hand when facing down the slope. With the slope as a guide, they could make it by night, in a whiteout, even blindfolded...

We understand better if we rotate the maps:





And the question is why were the hikers allegedly climbing in the cedar to find fire wood and dying of hypothermia in the Lozva valley while their storage was waiting in the Auspiya valley ? Supposing that Nature didn't want them to stay or to come back at their tent: why choose left and not right ?

The rotated map helps a lot. Even in fog is to the right. I am a skier and in fog this what I need to remember being at higher bald place - left right or straight. It works and have been to say so lost. Following this logic never failed me. Once in tree zone the visibility rises and you bump into so so initial location and familiar terrain.
Not to sound harsh but you must be braindead to not go from where u have come. With all 9 braindeaders the picture of "let go towards there in the unknown cause we love Darwin award" does not fit reality. This is insult to be called "their own decision".

[ilahiyol]

They may have used some of the branches for fire wood, but overall the evidence seems to point to them climbing the tree to find safety IMO.

So if this is the case then what would climbing a tree provide safety from?  Humans or animals , possibly fear of avalanche?

Regards
Star man

Especially if people are in the woods when it's dark and cold and they're running from something. They either climb trees or look for a place to hide under the snow or soil. The two Yuri were naked and needed a fire to keep warm. That's why they tried to start a fire. Then they realized that unknown coercive force was coming upon them. I think they both wanted to hide by climbing a tree. Their fingers froze because they were partially naked. A naked person gets hypothermia in a much shorter time at -20 degrees. Their body temperature drops a lot, and this is most evident in the toes and fingers. I think the two Yuri were attacked while they were sleeping in the tent.

[Tony]

The "window" is weird because a few of the investigators stated that none of the branches broken from the cedar were used in the fire. Instead, the hikers relied on smaller fir branches they had collected in and around the area of the cedar. It's possible that they meant to use them but never had the chance. It is also stated that the broken branches came from the windward side of the cedar and not the side that one would expect to collect branches (leeward side). One of the theories is that the hiker that climbed the cedar did so to clear a "window" to see back to the tent or get a birdseye view of the area. There are photos on this site that show that it is possible to see back to the tent from the cedar "window." But because the moon that night would not have been visible until 2:00 a.m. it is hard to believe that any of the hikers would have been able to see anymore that a few feet (or even inches) in front of them. I don't think they climbed the cedar to see back to the tent but also don't believe they climbed the cedar for wood (doesn't make sense to climb and collect wood from the windward side). It is another odd event in a string of odd occurences that happened that night.

[Ziljoe]

The "window" is weird because a few of the investigators stated that none of the branches broken from the cedar were used in the fire. Instead, the hikers relied on smaller fir branches they had collected in and around the area of the cedar. It's possible that they meant to use them but never had the chance. It is also stated that the broken branches came from the windward side of the cedar and not the side that one would expect to collect branches (leeward side). One of the theories is that the hiker that climbed the cedar did so to clear a "window" to see back to the tent or get a birdseye view of the area. There are photos on this site that show that it is possible to see back to the tent from the cedar "window." But because the moon that night would not have been visible until 2:00 a.m. it is hard to believe that any of the hikers would have been able to see anymore that a few feet (or even inches) in front of them. I don't think they climbed the cedar to see back to the tent but also don't believe they climbed the cedar for wood (doesn't make sense to climb and collect wood from the windward side). It is another odd event in a string of odd occurences that happened that night.

My recollection of reading about the branches is different. I thought they said there was branches/ wood on the ground that could have been used. There were some branches broken but not used and hanging on lower branches , those with needles . The hikers reported the day before, in their diaries that the wood was poor for burning.

To break off 80mm branches would be the easiest option to find dryer wood, especially without an axe . Like wise, the windward branches would be dryer from the wind? Maybe, perhaps ?

It seems logical to break the wood and ceder would be the best wood. Would it not? So many woulds / woods....

[ilahiyol]

The "window" is weird because a few of the investigators stated that none of the branches broken from the cedar were used in the fire. Instead, the hikers relied on smaller fir branches they had collected in and around the area of the cedar. It's possible that they meant to use them but never had the chance. It is also stated that the broken branches came from the windward side of the cedar and not the side that one would expect to collect branches (leeward side). One of the theories is that the hiker that climbed the cedar did so to clear a "window" to see back to the tent or get a birdseye view of the area. There are photos on this site that show that it is possible to see back to the tent from the cedar "window." But because the moon that night would not have been visible until 2:00 a.m. it is hard to believe that any of the hikers would have been able to see anymore that a few feet (or even inches) in front of them. I don't think they climbed the cedar to see back to the tent but also don't believe they climbed the cedar for wood (doesn't make sense to climb and collect wood from the windward side). It is another odd event in a string of odd occurences that happened that night.

I said that the unknown coercive force gives light and it is very easy to see in the dark. So the dark weather does not prevent him from seeing it... It can even be seen more clearly in the dark... So Yuri climbed up the tree and searched for him. He made a window in it. When they couldn't see it, they thought he was gone and wanted to go back to the tent. You said you didn't want to go back to the tent! But they had to return to the tent. His vital clothing and food and tools were there. And in that they wanted to know if it was safe around the tent. And in this they had to climb to the cedar.

[Missi]

If your unknown force was giving  so much light, that it was possible to see clearly, why wasn't it possible to see said light without climbing a tree?
A light in the dark is visible over great distances. Especially when there's nothing in the way, which there isn't it's a flat area, no trees, no big boulders. And the fact, that it's a slope doesn't change much in that aspect.

[ilahiyol]

If your unknown force was giving  so much light, that it was possible to see clearly, why wasn't it possible to see said light without climbing a tree?
A light in the dark is visible over great distances. Especially when there's nothing in the way, which there isn't it's a flat area, no trees, no big boulders. And the fact, that it's a slope doesn't change much in that aspect.

It is not possible to see every part of the slope through the forest. And the light of unknown power does not illuminate the surroundings, it only illuminates itself. Not like a Sun. Like a firefly... After all, they knew that the unknown Force was very dangerous and deadly. That's why they took a good look around. Maybe the two Yurides went out together and spied on. And it was imperative for them to return to the tent. The weather was getting colder. The weather, which was -10 degrees in the evening, would become -20 or even colder in the following hours. And the night was very long. The sun rises around 9:20 am. So after warming up a little on the Cedar, the two Yurides couldn't see anything, so they decided to turn around. In any case, the two Yuri and Dubininas did not have their tops. their condition was serious. But halfway back, the unknown Force attacked. And they all died unfortunately. May Allah forgive them all and put them in Paradise. Amine

[Missi]

If your unknown force was giving  so much light, that it was possible to see clearly, why wasn't it possible to see said light without climbing a tree?
A light in the dark is visible over great distances. Especially when there's nothing in the way, which there isn't it's a flat area, no trees, no big boulders. And the fact, that it's a slope doesn't change much in that aspect.

It is not possible to see every part of the slope through the forest. And the light of unknown power does not illuminate the surroundings, it only illuminates itself. Not like a Sun. Like a firefly... After all, they knew that the unknown Force was very dangerous and deadly. That's why they took a good look around. Maybe the two Yurides went out together and spied on. And it was imperative for them to return to the tent. The weather was getting colder. The weather, which was -10 degrees in the evening, would become -20 or even colder in the following hours. And the night was very long. The sun rises around 9:20 am. So after warming up a little on the Cedar, the two Yurides couldn't see anything, so they decided to turn around. In any case, the two Yuri and Dubininas did not have their tops. their condition was serious. But halfway back, the unknown Force attacked. And they all died unfortunately. May Allah forgive them all and put them in Paradise. Amine

Okay, I try to break this into parts:

1. "It is not possible to see every part of the slope through the forest. "
Agreed, that's why you postulate, they went to the cedar. Sounds logical to me.

2. "And the light of unknown power does not illuminate the surroundings, it only illuminates itself. Not like a Sun. Like a firefly... "
I'd like to ask, what that might be, but I imagine you're as much at a loss there as I am. Nevertheless it is enough for it to illuminate itself. You can see fireflies from some distance. And I'd say, a force that was able to destroy the bones of people, as you postulate, must be much bigger than a firefly. Therefore it should be visible from further afar than a firefly.

3. "After all, they knew that the unknown Force was very dangerous and deadly. That's why they took a good look around. Maybe the two Yurides went out together and spied on."
Sounds kinda logical, though I disagree with your premises. That's another story, though.

4. "And it was imperative for them to return to the tent. The weather was getting colder. The weather, which was -10 degrees in the evening, would become -20 or even colder in the following hours."
Agreed. The whether analysis suggests temperatures around -30°C. and felt temperatures of around -50°C.

5. "And the night was very long. The sun rises around 9:20 am."
Check.

6. "So after warming up a little on the Cedar, the two Yurides couldn't see anything, so they decided to turn around."
I am not sure, if I understand you correctly there. They turned around? So they went back into the woods to where the others were waiting?

All in all: If one believes in your unknown force, your theory is pretty consistent. So now let's speculate as to what that force could have been. What do you believe killed them?

[ilahiyol]

2. The unknown power is not the size of a firefly....The size of a human...But its light is like it...4. I don't believe it's too cold. If it were, they would all be frozen. But none of them froze, except for two. Both had partial freezing.6. They were all in the Cedar tree anyway....They went to the Cedar to warm up a little and observe the unknown power. Why would they leave? There must be a compelling reason to leave. In all kinds of mass loss events, if there is separation, there must be an important reason for it!!! In dangerous situations, people do not leave each other out of the blue. Even hostile people unite. They were together by the cedar tree. Then they made a plan. They will either stay in the forest and die of the cold. Or they would dare to go back to the tent. They chose to return to the tent. Three people were selected for this. The two Yuri would stay in the tree and near the fire. The other 4 would build a small shelter in the snow nearby. I think 4 people have never dug a cave in the snow. Because they were waiting for the trio who went to the tent. But they scratched the snow a little and made a small place for themselves there. This protected them from the wind.