Why didn't any of the group leave a message

[Ian Jones]

I am new to your site, but I have spent days reading everything there is, and I am still in the dark.  One thing that did occur to me was, why didn't any of the group leave a message, a goodbye note to their families, an explanation of what befell them?
They had paper and pen, I believe.
If I was in their position I would have wanted to tell my mother that I love her, and ask forgiveness.  Unless of course, I had brought it on myself in some way  (other than just being there)
I read your explanation of events, and it sounds the most likely to me.

Thanks for all of your efforts, this really is a great resource, even if I have managed to haunt myself.

Kind regards,

Ian Jones.  1959

[Teddy]

There should be two factors in place when I believe you consider writing a note - you don't believe you will make it, and you have a prolonged time of agony where you don't have anything better to do.
We believe they flee the tent. Why would they carry paper and pen with them? It is true that Askinadzi recollects Zolotaryov holding a notebook and a pen. Nobody but Colonel Ortyukov has seen what was inside, and nobody has seen the pen and the notebook after that. It was dark. And seems that they had plenty of work to do, or to hide, to the very end. And it was dark, cold, fingers frozen. Maybe Zolotaryov tried if Askinadzi can be trusted. maybe Ortyukov hid what Zolotaryov wrote as part of the cover up. Who knows.

I have been in an avalanche, rockfall, car accident, mugging at a knife point, lost at night in winter in the mountain... not once I felt like I should leave a note. The only time I have heard people leaving messages are suicide notes, writing in your own blood when bleeding out, or airplane lost control and you have some time to kill before you crash.

In my opinion, this case is weird, but not leaving a note is not the weirdest aspect of it. After all they were not huddled in the tent under an avalanche waiting to slowly die in control of all their faculties.

This message was initially sent as PM and I asked Ian to post it in the general discussion for other members to comment as well.

[Nigel Evans]

It's a sign of abrupt deaths. Incidentally you can't make notes in the dark. Maybe it was dawn.

[cennetkusu]

Semyon was the most intelligent and mature in age. And I believe you wrote something. But the colonel and the Soviet government of that time concealed it as hiding some photographs and diaries. And so far it has been hidden. Others may not have thought of writing because of the horrors of the event. However, Semyon knew he would die while writing and taking photographs. And he thought that people would find themselves before the snow melted. But people were so clumsy that they couldn't find four bodies just 75 meters from the cedar tree in time !!! Of course, that's why he didn't get a chance to examine the bodies better. And the photos and text taken unfortunately became unusable !!!

[Ian Jones]

Teddy.
A message doesn’t have to be an epistle.  If they had been the victims of some form of injustice, a one word clue would have sufficed, and could be written with sticks or stones.
I think that the events that led to their demise were probably banal in the context of a mixed group of young adults, competitiveness and sexual tension.
I know they are portrayed by themselves and Yuri Yudin, as the ‘Famous Five’, or ‘Swallows and Amazons’, but from my own experience at a similar age, and in similar social circumstances, relationships and people- dynamics are rarely simple.

[Teddy]

Perhaps, but it's not my cup of tea.

[Ian Jones]

It's only intended as, 'perhaps'.  I have an open mind, I'm just putting it out there. 

[Teddy]

I meant that the dynamics in group seem fine.

[Tim]

Frost bitten hands, however the last word in Zina's diary was a hunters name "Remple", who Igor was chatting with at one time. Logically were this name is placed in her diary would seem to mean he showed up while she was writing and just put down his name and would add to it afterword's...But there is no logic that can be associated
 with this case.

[sarapuk]

I am new to your site, but I have spent days reading everything there is, and I am still in the dark.  One thing that did occur to me was, why didn't any of the group leave a message, a goodbye note to their families, an explanation of what befell them?
They had paper and pen, I believe.
If I was in their position I would have wanted to tell my mother that I love her, and ask forgiveness.  Unless of course, I had brought it on myself in some way  (other than just being there)
I read your explanation of events, and it sounds the most likely to me.

Thanks for all of your efforts, this really is a great resource, even if I have managed to haunt myself.

Kind regards,

Ian Jones.  1959

We may be missing information  !  ?  Most of the information we have that shines light on this mystery comes after the downfall of the USSR. So maybe something was written down but went missing  !  ?  Maybe only titbits of information have been fed to us  !  ? 

[Star man]

At what point during a desperate action to survive should you give up and  stop to write your last words?

Regards

Star man

[Teddy]

Exactly. I consider unnatural to stop fighting whatever is attacking you, or completely loosing hope for survival.
Again, the only example that I can think of is being stuck in a out of control airplane.
There was a movie after real events, Into the Wild, I recommend watching it. The protagonist wrote goodby notes.
To get to this stage ones needs to have time and nothing better to do.

[Nigel Evans]

Exactly. I consider unnatural to stop fighting whatever is attacking you, or completely loosing hope for survival.
Again, the only example that I can think of is being stuck in a out of control airplane.
There was a movie after real events, Into the Wild, I recommend watching it. The protagonist wrote goodby notes.
To get to this stage ones needs to have time and nothing better to do. Like if you're in a den and dawn has arrived?

[Monika]

Zolotarev was the only one to have notes and the pencil. Of course is possible to write in the dark, if I want to leave a message to others about what happened to me, I scratch it even on the paper in the dark.
But, Zolotarev had a pencil and not a pen. Is there a question, can the pencil be functional when exposed in open space to under - 20ºC for a long time? I think not. This logically explains why he left no message.

What is strange to me is why they left no record in the diary of their last day, because they wrote it every day during beginning of their expedition. It seems that what forced them to escape from the tent happened just after dinner and not at night, and they haven't managed to write a record yet. This would also explain that they had not yet switched on the stove.

[Ian Jones]

Just to clarify.  From autopsy information available on this site, Kolevatov had paper, and Slobodin had pencil and pen.
This in in addition to the reported, but not substantiated, notebook and pencil in the hands of Zolotaryov.

And the point at which I might consider my imminent death, would have been just after I had stripped the clothes off of my two dead friends.

[Nigel Evans]

Zolotarev was the only one to have notes and the pencil. Of course is possible to write in the dark, if I want to leave a message to others about what happened to me, I scratch it even on the paper in the dark.
But, Zolotarev had a pencil and not a pen. Is there a question, can the pencil be functional when exposed in open space to under - 20ºC for a long time? I think not. This logically explains why he left no message. Not really, the pencil was in his clothing and warmed by his body heat.

What is strange to me is why they left no record in the diary of their last day, because they wrote it every day during beginning of their expedition. It seems that what forced them to escape from the tent happened just after dinner and not at night, and they haven't managed to write a record yet. This would also explain that they had not yet switched on the stove.

[Nigel Evans]

Remember there are missing diaries which it is assumed were confiscated. So arguments that assume we have a complete understanding of what was written and what wasn't are false arguments.

[Star man]

Exactly. I consider unnatural to stop fighting whatever is attacking you, or completely loosing hope for survival.
Again, the only example that I can think of is being stuck in a out of control airplane.
There was a movie after real events, Into the Wild, I recommend watching it. The protagonist wrote goodby notes.
To get to this stage ones needs to have time and nothing better to do.

Yeah anyone trained in survival will know that the moment you admit defeat is the point at which you seal your fate.  When time is against it is better to put your efforts in securing your survival rather than writing your memoirs.  The dyatlov group would know this.

Regards
Star man

[cennetkusu]

Exactly. I consider unnatural to stop fighting whatever is attacking you, or completely loosing hope for survival.
Again, the only example that I can think of is being stuck in a out of control airplane.
There was a movie after real events, Into the Wild, I recommend watching it. The protagonist wrote goodby notes.
To get to this stage ones needs to have time and nothing better to do.

Yeah anyone trained in survival will know that the moment you admit defeat is the point at which you seal your fate.  When time is against it is better to put your efforts in securing your survival rather than writing your memoirs.  The dyatlov group would know this.

Regards
Star man

If you don't have a chance to survive, you want to write something about danger. Especially if you've seen something extraordinary. You want to inform people to tell you that. Because you probably know you're gonna die.

[jarrfan]

We will never know if Zolotaryov wrote anything on that notepad held in his hand because the inspector Ortyukov just said, "he wrote nothing," and it was never documented, never found in case files.

[Zorah]

First of all, as has been pointed out, the first instincts of the 9 would have been geared towards surviving their desperate situation. 

Secondly, perhaps they had an experience that they did not understand or would not have been able to convey in a few scribbled words.

Thirdly. Any "free time" to write would have meant that any of them were at rest, so, either a. succumbing to severe and no doubt extremely painful traumatic injuries, or b. in at least the moderate to severe stages of hypothermia, which are characterized by severe incoordination and confusion (people who have been rescued from near-hypothermic-death usually report hallucinations and disconnection from reality).

[Zorah]

Another point. These are the current temperatures where I live. I can tell you with complete certainty that after 60 seconds of having a glove off, I can barely use my hand to pick something up, let alone write legibly. I forget if any of the hikers were found with mittens or any hand protection?

[Star man]

Another point. These are the current temperatures where I live. I can tell you with complete certainty that after 60 seconds of having a glove off, I can barely use my hand to pick something up, let alone write legibly. I forget if any of the hikers were found with mittens or any hand protection?

Don’t think it was quite that cold in the mountain but it is a valid point.  Are you sure your home temperatures are correct?  Those are the sort of temperatures you could expect on the surface of Mars?  I definitely would not go outside my tent for a pee in those temperatures.

Some did have gloves in their pockets.

Regards
Star man

[Zorah]

[quote author=Zorah link=topic=558.msg8129#msg8129

Don’t think it was quite that cold in the mountain but it is a valid point.  Are you sure your home temperatures are correct?  Those are the sort of temperatures you could expect on the surface of Mars?  I definitely would not go outside my tent for a pee in those temperatures.

Some did have gloves in their pockets.

Regards
Star man

Star man: I did laugh out loud at the "surface of Mars" observation. Welcome to the Canadian prairies. 
Those temperatures are very accurate, unfortunately.  I just had to go run my car for 5 minutes, because the hood (bonnet) is frozen shut, and I therefore can't access the plug-in for the block heater. And I need it to start in the morning which it won't do if I allow it to drop to the surrounding temperatures.  I do love camping, but I might wait until it warms up a bit to head to the Rockies...

Very true that the 9 would not have been enduring similar temps.  I think about them every time I go outside , this past week, though. I imagine with the possible wind speeds that night at the Pass, exposed skin would likely have frozen in less than 10 minutes. Funny that gloves would have been found in their pockets....and not on their hands. I don't remember reading that detail before. How very odd! Why would that be, I wonder?

[Nigel Evans]

[quote author=Zorah link=topic=558.msg8129#msg8129

Don’t think it was quite that cold in the mountain but it is a valid point.  Are you sure your home temperatures are correct?  Those are the sort of temperatures you could expect on the surface of Mars?  I definitely would not go outside my tent for a pee in those temperatures.

Some did have gloves in their pockets.

Regards
Star man

Star man: I did laugh out loud at the "surface of Mars" observation. Welcome to the Canadian prairies. 
Those temperatures are very accurate, unfortunately.  I just had to go run my car for 5 minutes, because the hood (bonnet) is frozen shut, and I therefore can't access the plug-in for the block heater. And I need it to start in the morning which it won't do if I allow it to drop to the surrounding temperatures.  I do love camping, but I might wait until it warms up a bit to head to the Rockies...

Very true that the 9 would not have been enduring similar temps.  I think about them every time I go outside , this past week, though. I imagine with the possible wind speeds that night at the Pass, exposed skin would likely have frozen in less than 10 minutes. Funny that gloves would have been found in their pockets....and not on their hands. I don't remember reading that detail before. How very odd! Why would that be, I wonder? Because Semyon was a WW2 veteran and knew how to build a snow den. They were warm in the den. There's very little frostbite recorded for the ravine 4. However how they avoided frostbite on the descent in those winds is a different question. Ditto how did powder retain the footprints for three weeks? The answer has to be that something was warming things up.... Maybe electrical discharge, maybe rocket fuel, but something had to be doing it.

[Star man]

Thibo has gloves in his pocket.

I am interested in the foot prints too, especially the fact that there was no forensic analysis.  Also am interested in how the foot prints formed and aspects about weight of person vs the amount of snow erosion.  Example:  the wind will erode so many centimetres of snow away exposing only the foot prints that were less deep than this.

Regards
Star man

[Nigel Evans]

To outline the argument for the footprints being natural - the weight and heat of the foot compresses and warms the snow so that it becomes much more compact and solid and able to resist the erosion of the wind.

Just look at the ringed footprint. Not only has the snow underneath the foot compressed, but the snow surrounding the foot (perhaps a border upto 2 inches wide?) has also solidified??? Like the snow was squeezed out by the foot's pressure, like they were walking in soft mud????
Definitely weird, definitely is not explained by the first sentence above.



 

[Zorah]

Difficult to see, but is the circled footprint a booted print? It looks like a bare or snow-covered foot to me. Could it be that with more heat (even a rapidly cooling bare or sock foot would exude significantly more heat than a foot covered by a boot), there is an area around the foot where the snow briefly melted then refroze (therefore esisting being blown away later)?

I am new to this particular topic. I am very curious to know if there is any science on raised footprints, i.e. at what temperatures are they known to form.

If I could find a windswept area on a hill where no one else would walk, I could do my own experiments.  A pity I'm a city dweller now and no longer in the country.

[Zorah]

Another thought. The mountainside had no doubt experienced more than one snowfall by that point in the winter. It's true that the snow when the hikers arrived did look to be fine and powdery. But we know from the searches that the snow was very deep in many places. Earlier snowfalls at warmer temps (as in autumn) would mean wetter, "stickier" snow in the deeper layers (which I hypothesize would be more likely to retain tracks).

Oh my goodness. Get a Canadian talking about snow. We're going to be here all winter while I blather on....

[Zorah]

Also...how was a den dug with no shovels and only one person with gloves? Even in a comparatively "warm" den, it would be madness to keep your gloves in your pocket and not put them on. Like, "yeah our friends at the cedar tree just died but I think we got this" ....to be fair, Tibo was very likely unconscious and his friends may not have realized he had gloves in his pockets. (Which makes Semyon's den construction feat even more amazing, if he constructed it with bare hands in -25Cish weather.)

I remember seeing a Borzenkov post where he hypothesized that the "den" was never really a "den" at all; that it was just a platform of branches on top of the snow, that much later got completely covered in snow (if I'm remembering correctly).