Gale force winds can push large sections of snow around .

[Tim]

It’s pretty clear that this theory has to start by determining why they left their belongings..This logical approach Is usually dismissed  because any theory that has mentioned,a snow slide, has been contaminated. However no one has brought to light that gale force winds could easily have moved a section of snow gravity could not have on it's own. It stands to reason that this may have happened. After the first cave in they had to cut themselves out, once  they were out, the wind pushed the remaining section of snow wall  onto the tent burying the needed supplies to survive. Dressed only in tent clothes. THEY ARE NOW ON DEATHS CLOCK.  They can barely hear each other and their hands are starting to freeze trying to dig out there supplies. 10 minuets have gone by and they are feeling the effects of exposure.   Now a decision has to be made because they need heat immediately, not gloves or boots, They have matches, they are traveling as fast as they can against the wind, this is not a purposeful slow decent....After a few weeks the raised footprints emerge and the snow on the tent has been blown away......I know this may seem far fetched, but it is not as far fetched as other theories....This explains why they left without their gear...Note: This was a bad tent in always need of repair...they had to make sure the tent was protected from the high winds that were starting..and they were well dressed to do this, Someone even snapped a couple of photos of this....no worries...This is a logical theory and not an emotional theory...but it still could be wrong which would not surprise me...

[Monty]

It's a fair scenario. Given there are many alternative assumptions, can it fit in the missing tongue and the need to climb five metres up a rugged tree? I think there is merit in this scenario you describe. Would they really beat the life out of each other? Possible. But one of them must therefore survived the battle Royale and died of the cold.

[Star man]

Right when you leave off from your original theory a new one emerges causing you to go back to it as I just did with Holmgren's theory. I always have said that the Hikers built an additional snow wall for added protection and two of the hiker's went out to the bathroom and unintentionally dislodged it onto the tent, explaining the chunks of snow found on the tent. Retreat to the tree line ,build a fire, and asses the tent in the day time. Holmgren said" they put snow on the tent from keeping it from blowing away and return in the morning" Logical. Either they fought at the shelter because of a disagreement to leave at such a late hour or at the cedar tree to where they punched out Igor for putting them in this situation... The snowpack, water intrusion and gravity I have always said caused the crushing injuries, Holmgren nailed it by saying their snow wall collapsed onto them creating a snap shot of their deaths...It was hard to go against the reports, but I think this is a more likely ending to this mystery. The Holmgren documentary is amazing and plausible.

Why retreat to the tree line without your shoes and outer clothing? 

Regards

Star man

[Star man]

It's a fair scenario. Given there are many alternative assumptions, can it fit in the missing tongue and the need to climb five metres up a rugged tree? I think there is merit in this scenario you describe. Would they really beat the life out of each other? Possible. But one of them must therefore survived the battle Royale and died of the cold.

With respect to the possibility that their injuries were caused by the collapsing snow in the den you make a good point.  If they were crushed under the snow, how would scavengers be able to get at them to take eyes and tongue?

Regards
Star man

[Tim]

Excellent point,  Considering the human body is 96% water, and having a continuous supply of water flowing , plus , the time in the water, eyes ,tounge and skin ( Soft Tissues)don't stand a chance against the elements..I'm a termite inspector, we also list wood destroying organisms ,such as fungus, left unchecked will turn a 2x4 into mush until the water source is corrected...I believe the other bodies left exposed were picked at by critters.. It was an amazing revelation to me that ,Holmgren ,made the Incredible revelation that Luda was climbing back into the snow cave right when it collapsed...Then the bodies slid around with the snow pact and eventually into the stream..

[Tim]

Holmgrens theory about the wind lacks one important clue, Holmgren says  and I’m paraphrasing, the wind and the extreme temperature was destroying the tent. Then they would not of needed to of cut the tent. What I have always contended was there was a protective snow wall cave-in which would make one think of an avalanche.
When it collapsed it hurt and stunned them which makes sense, this is where the knives were taken out and the tent was cut...A interesting note that always gets over looked was the tent was modified to make it twice the size...This tent was never intended to be up on the mountain,exposed to Gale force winds...This was a substandard tent, “ Full of holes and tares that always needed amending....

[Tim]

Precisely, why leave anything of life saving value behind.? They panicked and  gambeled on making it to the trees.. Essentially they swam to far away from thier life boat..Referring back to the tent photo, there are chunks of snow  sitting on the tent that can be measured against other objects. The two photos of them digging out a place to set up the tent shows a difference in elevation.  Meaning the exterior snow pack is higher than the interior floor of the tent which  makes it a faulty grade. Which one needs to stay out of the gale force winds. Extra snow may have been added to the exterior snow pack for extra protection..This snow could of slipped off and onto the tent causing the bruising to Zinas side and minor head injuries.The bodies absorbed the brunt of this slide protecting any objects laying around from being crushed. This happened all in one split second,   they were covered and exposed to the deadly wind....sorry for the long winded answer...

[Nigel Evans]

We've been discussing this on the Gravity wind thread for several weeks? Granted it's gone off topic...

[MDGross]

Any number of theories have merit. None are perfect (then we wouldn't be having this discussion, right?). They all have important gaps. But I support the idea of a gale force wind (see the Gravity Wind thread) that was forceful enough to dislodge the tent (at least that's what the group believed). The tent was hardly secure, having been tied to skis and ski poles. The group needed more protection immediately, and so their ill-fated trek to the trees below. A snow wall in front of the tent is a new twist and maybe it was built. But if it collapsed onto the tent, wouldn't the base remain in place and be visible to those who came to look for the group? And if you're going to take the time and trouble to build a snow wall, why not just pack everything up and move down to the trees in the first place?

[Tim]

Absolutely correct about they needed protection immediately, Holmgren says “ they covered the tent with snow to secure it from blowing away, The photo shows chunks of snow on the tent, even Josh Gates pointed this out.  For sure it would not be a conventional snow wall...Observe the 2 photos of them digging out the tent, the exterior snow pack , where the skis and backpacks  are located are higher than the interior of the tent floor causing a natural wall.. What’s never been reported, to my knowledge, are the skis that have been stuck into the ground, may have inadvertently fractured a snow slab the tourists never realized was there that, eventually crashed down on top of them.. My eye is telling me that the photos of them digging out the area to set up Their tent, is not, the same area where they found the tent , Unless the tourist happened upon a false wall of snow that eventually slipped..then the gale force wind blew Most of that wall away....Even though this theory could be ridiculous, but I agree with you wholeheartedly on your theories.

[Nigel Evans]

Holmgren doesn't explain why they left the tent without dressing for the journey, particularly without their valenki = felt boots.


The first test of any DPI theory is that it has to explain why they fled the tent half dressed and felt unable to return to collect more clothing.


Any theory that can't is a non starter, a dud, nada.

[MDGross]

Some theories require so many steps to happen before the group even leaves the tent. For example, the exploded missile theory requires that a missile be fired on the night of Feb. 1 during a limited window of time. Then, in the vast expanse of Siberia, it has to fly nearly over the heads of the group. Then it has to explode at just the right time and height. Otherwise the missile fuel would be dispersed or fall harmlessly to the ground. If some sort of documentation can ever be found to at least confirm the launch and path of the missile, this explanation might very be what happened.
I like much simpler explanations such as something happened with the tent. A sudden movement of snow like Tim says may have panicked the group into believing that they were about to slide down the slope along with their tent. Or a sudden snow hurricane led them to think that their tent, coats, shoes, etc. were about to blow away. How rational can anyone be under such brutal weather? They're not thinking about coats, gloves and boots; they're thinking about surviving whatever sudden, potentially deadly occurrence they faced.

[Star man]

Precisely, why leave anything of life saving value behind.? They panicked and  gambeled on making it to the trees.. Essentially they swam to far away from thier life boat..Referring back to the tent photo, there are chunks of snow  sitting on the tent that can be measured against other objects. The two photos of them digging out a place to set up the tent shows a difference in elevation.  Meaning the exterior snow pack is higher than the interior floor of the tent which  makes it a faulty grade. Which one needs to stay out of the gale force winds. Extra snow may have been added to the exterior snow pack for extra protection..This snow could of slipped off and onto the tent causing the bruising to Zinas side and minor head injuries.The bodies absorbed the brunt of this slide protecting any objects laying around from being crushed. This happened all in one split second,   they were covered and exposed to the deadly wind....sorry for the long winded answer...

What about Rustem's boot.  This is a key clue.  He grabbed and put one boot on then dashed out of the tent leaving the other behind.  Why would he do this?  If he had time for one boot, why not put the other on too?

One other thing.  There are reports that a jacket was found about 10 metres from the tent.  What was it doing there?  If they took it from the tent why then drop it?

Just some further factors for you to think about.

Regards
Star man

[Star man]

Some theories require so many steps to happen before the group even leaves the tent. For example, the exploded missile theory requires that a missile be fired on the night of Feb. 1 during a limited window of time. Then, in the vast expanse of Siberia, it has to fly nearly over the heads of the group. Then it has to explode at just the right time and height. Otherwise the missile fuel would be dispersed or fall harmlessly to the ground. If some sort of documentation can ever be found to at least confirm the launch and path of the missile, this explanation might very be what happened.
I like much simpler explanations such as something happened with the tent. A sudden movement of snow like Tim says may have panicked the group into believing that they were about to slide down the slope along with their tent. Or a sudden snow hurricane led them to think that their tent, coats, shoes, etc. were about to blow away. How rational can anyone be under such brutal weather? They're not thinking about coats, gloves and boots; they're thinking about surviving whatever sudden, potentially deadly occurrence they faced.

The hikers were experienced and would know the risks of leaving the tent without shoes, boots or cold weather clothing.  They would know that leaving the way they did was suicide and would have not left without their gear if they thought there was any way they could retrieve it safely.  Whatever the reason they left they thought their lives were in immediate and significant danger.  Also see previous post about Rustem's one boot and the jacket found not far from the tent.

Regards

Star man

[Tim]

There is a remote possibility the  other boot could not be located in the chaos because, like other items, they were buried under snow that made its way into the tent. The rescuers made it sound like they were expecting guests for tea, The  lack of clothing on the hikers is the evidence snow had made its way into parts of the tent, covering their clothes. A choice had to be made immediately, stay at the tent, dig out the clothes, shake the snow off, put the articles back on, find the needle and thread, thread the needle, sew the tent ,then remove the snow from within the tent in gale force winds. Why were there not photos of the interior of the tent when first discovered.? Show me pictures of the chocolate, the boots that were just out in the open or placed neatly in a corner. We humans cannot equate gale force winds in deadly sub zero weather. It only takes minutes to die without adequate clothing.

[Star man]

There is a remote possibility the  other boot could not be located in the chaos because, like other items, they were buried under snow that made its way into the tent. The rescuers made it sound like they were expecting guests for tea, The  lack of clothing on the hikers is the evidence snow had made its way into parts of the tent, covering their clothes. A choice had to be made immediately, stay at the tent, dig out the clothes, shake the snow off, put the articles back on, find the needle and thread, thread the needle, sew the tent ,then remove the snow from within the tent in gale force winds. Why were there not photos of the interior of the tent when first discovered.? Show me pictures of the chocolate, the boots that were just out in the open or placed neatly in a corner. We humans cannot equate gale force winds in deadly sub zero weather. It only takes minutes to die without adequate clothing.

Sharavin states there was no snow in the tent when they looked inside.

You kind of make my point.  In a gale with freezing conditions you have little time.  Therefore leaving without your shoes and clothing is suicide.  Why would you do it?

Regards

Star man

[Tim]

Let me put it another way, is it possible for a tent with gaping holes, that a human can step through, left exposed for weeks in the mountains and not have any snow residuals accumulated on the inside of it? . We know that only a gale force wind can allow for the making of a raised footprint which means the winds did not die down anytime soon...On the face value of it, Sharavins statement is inconsistent given the condition the tent was left in. If I fill an ice tray half way and put it in the freezer and then ask someone to see if there are any ice cubes left in the tray and they only look in and not pull the tray out  they wont see that there are cubes but only half full. Bad example, but my line of thinking is why wouldn't Sharavin at least  say that there was a light dusting of snow because its impossible for there  not have been any snow which is misleading and conjures up images of them sitting around having, hot chocolate, which was impossible because the stove wasn't set up.. Best ,Tim

[Tim]

Some years back I did a very crude example showing the difference of height elevations. These photos do not match up to where the tent was found.






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truth poem
 I realize that the first photo was the wrong photo, it has been altered, my apologies. thanks

[Star man]

Let me put it another way, is it possible for a tent with gaping holes, that a human can step through, left exposed for weeks in the mountains and not have any snow residuals accumulated on the inside of it? . We know that only a gale force wind can allow for the making of a raised footprint which means the winds did not die down anytime soon...On the face value of it, Sharavins statement is inconsistent given the condition the tent was left in. If I fill an ice tray half way and put it in the freezer and then ask someone to see if there are any ice cubes left in the tray and they only look in and not pull the tray out  they wont see that there are cubes but only half full. Bad example, but my line of thinking is why wouldn't Sharavin at least  say that there was a light dusting of snow because its impossible for there  not have been any snow which is misleading and conjures up images of them sitting around having, hot chocolate, which was impossible because the stove wasn't set up.. Best ,Tim

Why would Sharavin lie about the snow in the tent?  I think he suggests that the damaged side of the tent was covered by the good side preventing snow getting in.

Regards
Star man

[Star man]

Another potential problem with the den collapse causing the injuries or slow compression due to the buildup of snow:  Kolevatov was found embracing Semyon.  Kolevatov did not have significant chest trauma.  How can this be explained?

Thibo’s head injury is a significant but localised injury.  I don’t think a snow collapse or snow pressure could explain such a localised injury?

Regards
Star man

[Tim]

Totally makes sense if it were under normal winter conditions, but I can see that if the Gale force winds forced the good side down it would stay down..good point.

[Tim]

In regards to the injuries to the 4 in the den. Much like a tornado which leaves the whole neighborhood destroyed and left a few houses untouched. Given where each person in the den was situated everyone sustained a different injury...In the one photo that was generated in blue by an outside company. The above photo looking down on the four shows the three men with Luda on the rocks, My very first impression was because there is that space in-between the men I originally thought that the men died first and Luda crawled over them because they were dead and served no more useful porpoise in conserving heat. But now after reading Holmgrens theory, it appears that Luda left the den to go to the bathroom and on her way back in it collapsed on half of her.,Like a melting glacier, it moves grinding up whatever lies in it's path.  It was this image alone when reading Holmgrens theory that got me away from the murder theory...again...What would say to, if he was trying to write in the diary, it would that mean that there was some day light in order to see what he was writing and the disaster struck.

[sarapuk]

We've been discussing this on the Gravity wind thread for several weeks? Granted it's gone off topic...

New Members should read up on ALL the older posts etc, otherwise its going to get very repetitive.

[Nigel Evans]

Another potential problem with the den collapse causing the injuries or slow compression due to the buildup of snow:  Kolevatov was found embracing Semyon.  Kolevatov did not have significant chest trauma.  How can this be explained?

Thibo’s head injury is a significant but localised injury.  I don’t think a snow collapse or snow pressure could explain such a localised injury?

Regards
Star man

It's explained on my ravine deaths thread?



 

[Tim]

Interesting theory, I'll need to absorb this.

[Monty]

I still struggle with the concept of a snow den. The tent was placed in an area that had been dug out in daylight by nine well dressed and equipped people working as a team with the prospect of dinner. Fast forward several hours and there are no longer nine, they are poorly dressed and have no equipment. It just isn't possible for them to dig bare handed deep enough to create an ice wall that could fall on them.
Also if they left the tent but not under armed guard, why not head for the cache as a starting point for initial assembly and situation assessment.
My apologies if I am in the wrong thread. I am new to this forum and forums generally. And i have a windows 10 phone.

[Tim]

Struggles are part of this process. Simply the Photos show they were setting up next to an elevated surface for protection and there is snow on that elevated surface. Because the tent was in poor condition and was two tents sewn together it was never meant for the slopes  and out in the open, they added more snow and compacted it because this is what you do. Mountaineering 101. See the two photos of them setting up the tent. No worries and someone is taking photos..Eventually to much snow accumulated on the wall, with the gale winds and gravity it  only one section of the wall dislodged . After they had cut themselves out, the other section of the wall collapsed cutting off access to the tent. The decision to go to the trees and start a fire was quick or they would of never made it to the forest if they spent to much time at the tent...This may be wrong but its the first logical answer that I have read to why they left the tent. But I have changed my mind before.

[Nigel Evans]

I still struggle with the concept of a snow den. The tent was placed in an area that had been dug out in daylight by nine well dressed and equipped people working as a team with the prospect of dinner. Fast forward several hours and there are no longer nine, they are poorly dressed and have no equipment. It just isn't possible for them to dig bare handed deep enough to create an ice wall that could fall on them.
Also if they left the tent but not under armed guard, why not head for the cache as a starting point for initial assembly and situation assessment.
My apologies if I am in the wrong thread. I am new to this forum and forums generally. And i have a windows 10 phone.

Not so, they cut the poles that formed the den bed with a knife, so they had a knife to cut blocks of snow, poles to dig with and cloth to carry away spoil. Some pieces were discarded on the top of the ravine snow as they would have been soaking wet after use and of no use as covers for seats.


The cache was further away and probably impossible to reach in the dark. Plus it offered no advantage. Just lots of food a pair of skis and a mandolin. In the missile theory they had a good plan, head for the forest, light a fire, leave a flashlight as a beacon on a ridge and hopefully return sooner rather than later. But something went wrong and three didn't make it (probably blinded) and Yuri k arrived burnt.  Yuri D stayed in the tree calling out to the lost three until hypothermia got him, Yuri k having already died of shock. Then they extinguished the fire (according to the rescue group there was no reason for it not to continue burning so the assumption is it was extinguished) and setup the den. Semyon was found holding his notebook and pen so it's plausible that they survived there until dawn until something crushed them presumed to be a tracked vehicle.

[Monty]

Some interesting food for thought. Am i right in saying you refer to ski poles that we're cut? Perhaps grabbed on the way out of the tent. I assumed from the"den" photo the four sitting areas were pine cones/branches on thicker branches. A bit like a small raft you would lash together.

[Monty]

I might add the image of a yeti chasing them only to be met with the sweet sounds of a mandolin would be fairly pythonesque.