Gale force winds can push large sections of snow around .

[Nigel Evans]

Some interesting food for thought. Am i right in saying you refer to ski poles that we're cut? Perhaps grabbed on the way out of the tent. I assumed from the"den" photo the four sitting areas were pine cones/branches on thicker branches. A bit like a small raft you would lash together.

No the "poles" were cut from saplings near the den (so they had a knife). The remnants being clearly visible to the rescuers. The poles formed the base of the raft on which the seats were built from twigs finished with scraps of cloth. N.B. the construction of the raft is to some extent conjecture because it was found in a wrecked condition due to the snow in the ravine having "travelled" (obeying gravity like a glacier does). The case files state that the bodies were found 6 metres downstream from the den but some rescuers (Askenadzi) dispute this stating it was 1metre.

[Nigel Evans]

I might add the image of a yeti chasing them only to be met with the sweet sounds of a mandolin would be fairly pythonesque.

Essential expedition equipment - "Music to serenade a killer yeti, Vol 1 - 10" .

[Monty]

Thanks. That's a helpful description and explanation. Therefore with enough time and determined effort a den could have been fashioned to act as a shelter /hide

[Monty]

If only they had chosen a double bass instead.
In all seriousness though, is there much truth in the finding of the military puttee or has this been explained? The den/gulley report contained reference to at least one. Would this be something a group member would wear as part of their gear?

[Nigel Evans]

Thanks. That's a helpful description and explanation. Therefore with enough time and determined effort a den could have been fashioned to act as a shelter /hide

They had an expert at hand in Semyon and Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket suggesting he was warm enough, suggesting they were in the den.

[Nigel Evans]

If only they had chosen a double bass instead.
In all seriousness though, is there much truth in the finding of the military puttee or has this been explained? The den/gulley report contained reference to at least one. Would this be something a group member would wear as part of their gear?

It did exist but hasn't been explained. Could be a perfectly innocent piece of kit of course that one of the group carried. Yudin couldn't have known about every item carried by every member.

[Monty]

So a collapsed den could be a scenario. Two by the tree die of cold, and two of the three found on the slope also die of cold. That leaves one on the slope with the unexplained head injury, Rustem. Was he going up or down.

[Nigel Evans]

So a collapsed den could be a scenario. Two by the tree die of cold, and two of the three found on the slope also die of cold. That leaves one on the slope with the unexplained head injury, Rustem. Was he going up or down.

Lets take Rustem first. He suffered head injuries and internal bleeding. Whatever the cause of this, it implies some very rough activity. Maybe he fell, maybe he was attacked. Whatever it was it doesn't fit with (imo) with his cap being perfectly in place on his head! Surely someone put it there as a kindness after his trauma forced him to lie down? Also whether Rustem died of cold or internal bleeding is an open question imo.


Yuri D died of cold but whether Yuri K did is imo open. Hypothermia is slow shutting down and i don't see that fitting with holding skin in your mouth for many minutes.


Igor clearly died of cold (full bladder) but Zinaida is less certain imo.


It's a good fit with the missile theory that Zinaida, Igor and Rustem had lost vision to some extent.

[Monty]

Assuming they weren't at gun point during the tent exit - perhaps a missile explosion or even ice wall collapse. Had they gone to the cache, they would have had a mandolin to burn, spare valenki boots size 41, and spare skis to wear with the boots. As well as what ever materials were covering the goods. Someone could have gone for help at first light. If they pooled all their Remaing stuff, someone could have survived till morning and skied out. They may have died trying. Yes they had nothing to gain by going to the cache but everything to lose.
The cache was the only place for many miles in any direction that had any familiarity, and hope.

[Nigel Evans]

Assuming they weren't at gun point during the tent exit - perhaps a missile explosion or even ice wall collapse. Had they gone to the cache, they would have had a mandolin to burn, spare valenki boots size 41, and spare skis to wear with the boots. As well as what ever materials were covering the goods. Someone could have gone for help at first light. If they pooled all their Remaing stuff, someone could have survived till morning and skied out. They may have died trying. Yes they had nothing to gain by going to the cache but everything to lose.
The cache was the only place for many miles in any direction that had any familiarity, and hope.

You definitely do not leave your valenki behind because of an ice wall collapse.
They were quite familiar with the forest and it was much nearer. So it was the best plan get down there and build a big fire. There is no wind in the shelter of the forest so no windchill. Lots of fuel for the fire (although much of it green sapling wood, hence the preference for the cedar).

[Monty]

The main website also refers to fire wood (chopped), medical supplies and a torch being located in the labaz or cache. Surely a better start than nothing. Perhaps they were disorientated and went in search of the cache but entered the wrong tree line. Some diagrams show the cedar equidistant from the tent as potential cache locations. This, climb the cedar and look for your stuff. Also socks logged in the cache as items.

[Nigel Evans]

Maybe a map like this is part of the problem :-

 


The location of the tent is incorrect. It's actually close to the white cross on the left hand side of "Kolmogorova". That white cross is approx 1 mile to the cedar.

Look how near the tree line is and the shelter of the forest from wind chill.

[MDGross]

I'm not sure the plan was to build a fire large enough to keep everyone warm. Seems like it was built in some haste in an effort to keep Yuri D and Yuri K alive. The wound to Slobodin's head is hard to understand. Could he have fallen going down or back up the slope and struck his head on a rock just under the snow?
And I've always been confused about why Dyatlov's coat was found outside the tent? Was he forced to remove it? In the chaos of leaving the tent, did one of the others get it inadvertently wrapped around his or her foot or leg? Did Dyatlov remove it himself because of some type of contamination or danger?

[Star man]

I'm not sure the plan was to build a fire large enough to keep everyone warm. Seems like it was built in some haste in an effort to keep Yuri D and Yuri K alive. The wound to Slobodin's head is hard to understand. Could he have fallen going down or back up the slope and struck his head on a rock just under the snow?
And I've always been confused about why Dyatlov's coat was found outside the tent? Was he forced to remove it? In the chaos of leaving the tent, did one of the others get it inadvertently wrapped around his or her foot or leg? Did Dyatlov remove it himself because of some type of contamination or danger?

It’s unlikely that Rustem’s head Injury was caused by a fall.  He has two directly opposite injuries in the temple region.  One is more significant than the other.  It is more likely that they were caused by some kind of confrontation.  If he had fallen it is more likely that an injury would appear on the back or front of the skull.  Two directly opposite is very unlikely.

Dyatlov’s jacket.  Did he grab it while leaving the tent and then drop it again for some reason?  It’s unlikely he took it off of his own free will.  Strangely Rustem only had time to put on a single boot too.  Question :  is there a pattern there and what does it tell us?

I think you may be correct about the purpose of the fire.  That would explain why the fire was hot enough to burn them, but not enough to keep them alive.

Interestingly, the shape of Thibo’s depressed fracture is identical to the shape of the ball of a thumb.  A large apes thumb.  Also Lyuda and Semyon’s injuries are consistent with being attacked by a large ape.  Am not saying there are not other explanations but it is interesting.

Regards

Star man

[Monty]

Thoughts on torches? One in the cache, the spare. One near the tent switched off but batteries had juice remaining & one half way down the slope switched on but flat batteries. Were there any other light sources other than flames/fire? If not, does anyone have any experience or suggestions how they could achieve what they did outside of the tent, cold and confused? Small cedar tree fire to light sticks with sections of ripped clothes ignited and wrapped on stick end perhaps.

[cennetkusu]

Thoughts on torches? One in the cache, the spare. One near the tent switched off but batteries had juice remaining & one half way down the slope switched on but flat batteries. Were there any other light sources other than flames/fire? If not, does anyone have any experience or suggestions how they could achieve what they did outside of the tent, cold and confused? Small cedar tree fire to light sticks with sections of ripped clothes ignited and wrapped on stick end perhaps.

It is full of snow. In other words, the snow provides some kind of light. But they still had to get the flashlights. Because it is only two reasons not to get the flashlights in the dark. 1. Either they could not think of taking the horror of the event. 2. There was an unnatural glow around. If the incident occurred during the day, lanterns should be bought considering the night. Or, according to a third option, it is normal for young people not to get the lanterns as they cannot even take their shoes from the tent. But they wore Semyon and Tibo shoes, and they also wore their outerwear. Why did they not take the flashlights (?) Because the lanterns are so vital and important as shoes in a cold dark night. I think there was an artificial light source that illuminated the surroundings.

[Monty]

As much as I remain unconvinced about that, it would explain quite alot. There are vast numbers of "how did they" questions during this incident but the more thought you lend to this, you really start to wonder just how they managed to do anything constructive in total near darkness.

[Eve24]

I want to think they fell in a ravine/den but isn’t it one of the oddities that it was dug and they weren’t in it?

[Star man]

Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster.  After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air.  Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape.  The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger.

Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow  while in a blizzard with no outer clothing  or shoes, gloves etc. They had two choices and neither of them were good.  Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed.  Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands)  would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment. 

During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured.  The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope.  But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong.

It's not a bad theory.  Simple and credible.

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster.  After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air.  Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape.  The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger. So when did they cut the slits along the whole length of the apex of the tent? If it was before why? If it was after then if they had enough space to cut those slits they must have had enough space to collect clothing/footwear?

Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow  like digging out a den? while in a blizzard with no outer clothing  or shoes, gloves etc. but plenty of ski poles? They had two choices and neither of them were good.  Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed.  Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands)  would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment. 

During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured.  The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope.  But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong. There is little wind in the forest. Contrast the snow covering the two Yuris (1-3cm) with the snow covering Rustem and Zinaida (60-80cm?)

It's not a bad theory.  Simple and credible.

Regards

Star man

[Tim]

Monty, very good questions about the tongue,
Lets start at the labaz, The decision to leave so late in the day was no doubt met with some heated resistance from other members of the party.  On the journey up the side of the mountain they are not making good time at all. The other members are even getting angrier, but no sense in shouting the wind will drowned them out.
After the accident at the tent the two Yuri's run ahead to start a fire. When they find how close they actually are to the forest they are now even angrier for Igor to even put them in harms way when they could of waited till first light.
When they finally are all together, fists are thrown directed at Igor for this putting everyone in this situation. In a matter of minuets the girls now screaming get the situation under control. 
No one knows what training the medical examiner has in frozen body burning and pooling of blood. easily to see on a hot day in July but maybe not so much in a frozen thawed out body. False positive.
The tongue, The human body is 96% water, and when it has blood and oxygen pumping through it ,though still fragile, can endure a lot. When it is not functioning and is dead it starts to disintegrate.
Luda even though very strong woman, her tongue was very delicate, no match from pressure and continuous water flowing basically through her body now. The tongue is carved out neatly by the water and skin and eyes break down and get removed by the flowing water.  Water and wind over century's have carved out the grand canyons and have smoothed out solid rock formations.
 The examiner doing his best read the evidence correctly as he saw it but it was incorrect in many ways.   A 2020 examination would contradict many of the original findings.   Flesh and bone when soft and under pressure will easily break and disappear. The way all suffering the effects of hypothermia. On a normal winter day this would be easily survivable and would make for a good story around the campfires to come.

[Nigel Evans]

Monty, very good questions about the tongue,
Lets start at the labaz, The decision to leave so late in the day was no doubt met with some heated resistance from other members of the party.  On the journey up the side of the mountain they are not making good time at all. The other members are even getting angrier, but no sense in shouting the wind will drowned them out. Not so, from the group diary, the decision to camp on the ridge was made the day before on the 31st Jan. - https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-diary
After the accident at the tent the two Yuri's run ahead to start a fire. When they find how close they actually are to the forest they are now even angrier for Igor to even put them in harms way when they could of waited till first light.
When they finally are all together, fists are thrown directed at Igor for this putting everyone in this situation. In a matter of minuets the girls now screaming get the situation under control. 
No one knows what training the medical examiner has in frozen body burning and pooling of blood. easily to see on a hot day in July but maybe not so much in a frozen thawed out body. False positive.
The tongue, The human body is 96% water, and when it has blood and oxygen pumping through it ,though still fragile, can endure a lot. When it is not functioning and is dead it starts to disintegrate.
Luda even though very strong woman, her tongue was very delicate, no match from pressure and continuous water flowing basically through her body now. The tongue is carved out neatly by the water and skin and eyes break down and get removed by the flowing water.  Water and wind over century's have carved out the grand canyons and have smoothed out solid rock formations.
 The examiner doing his best read the evidence correctly as he saw it but it was incorrect in many ways.   A 2020 examination would contradict many of the original findings.   Flesh and bone when soft and under pressure will easily break and disappear. The way all suffering the effects of hypothermia. On a normal winter day this would be easily survivable and would make for a good story around the campfires to come.

[Star man]

Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster.  After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air.  Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape.  The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger. So when did they cut the slits along the whole length of the apex of the tent? If it was before why? If it was after then if they had enough space to cut those slits they must have had enough space to collect clothing/footwear?

Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow  like digging out a den? while in a blizzard with no outer clothing  or shoes, gloves etc. but plenty of ski poles? They had two choices and neither of them were good.  Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed.  Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands)  would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment. 

During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured.  The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope.  But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong. There is little wind in the forest. Contrast the snow covering the two Yuris (1-3cm) with the snow covering Rustem and Zinaida (60-80cm?)

It's not a bad theory.  Simple and credible.

Regards

Star man

There were only three cuts in the case filed that indicate they were made from inside.  It's possible the other cuts at the top were made by the search party.  Even with ski poles it's unlikely they would be able to remove enough snow before they would lose ability to use their hands.

There is no evidence that a proper den was made.  It's unlikely it was a proper den.

Although the wind in the forest would be reduced, it is likely that there would be a fair breeze and significant wind chill.

I'm not ruling out other theories, I'm just saying that Tim's theory is credible.  Yes the injuries are strange, but not impossible to explain by natural events.

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

Tim's scenario would only require about 2 to 3 cubic metres of snow to slide onto the tent in the right place to cause the disaster.  After thinking there had been an avalanche the group would panic and try to escape from the tent to get to fresh air.  Under these conditions it is not a great stretch to think that one or more would use their knives to try and cut the tent to escape.  The cuts themselves appear to first have been made with a knife and then hands were used to tear at the holes to make them bigger. So when did they cut the slits along the whole length of the apex of the tent? If it was before why? If it was after then if they had enough space to cut those slits they must have had enough space to collect clothing/footwear?

Once they had got everyone outside they would be faced with the task of removing over a tonne of snow  like digging out a den? while in a blizzard with no outer clothing  or shoes, gloves etc. but plenty of ski poles? They had two choices and neither of them were good.  Attempt to dig out the tent and their equipment or go to the forest seek shelter and build a fire until the storm passed.  Maybe they did try to dig initially, but soon realised that without a spade or better equipment it was useless and their only means of survival (their hands)  would be useless by the time they removed enough snow to get at their equipment. 

During the descent one or more fell at a ridge and were injured.  The group decide to split so that some can go on faster and prepare an area and a fire, while the others help the injured down the to slope.  But even with a fire it is hopeless because the wind and cold is too strong. There is little wind in the forest. Contrast the snow covering the two Yuris (1-3cm) with the snow covering Rustem and Zinaida (60-80cm?)

It's not a bad theory.  Simple and credible.

Regards

Star man

There were only three cuts in the case filed that indicate they were made from inside.  It's possible the other cuts at the top were made by the search party.  Even with ski poles it's unlikely they would be able to remove enough snow before they would lose ability to use their hands.

There is no evidence that a proper den was made.  It's unlikely it was a proper den.

Although the wind in the forest would be reduced, it is likely that there would be a fair breeze and significant wind chill.

I'm not ruling out other theories, I'm just saying that Tim's theory is credible.  Yes the injuries are strange, but not impossible to explain by natural events.

Regards

Star man

Greetings, good fencing with you. The basis for the theory is that Semyon and Nicolai are outside to relieve themselves and push over a snow wall? So we have two well dressed fit men (Nicolai had gloves) with lots of old fashioned ski poles made of bamboo, metal rings attached with straps and a gale force wind which means that to move snow you just have to throw it up into the air and the wind will do the rest. And this "credible" theory is that these two fit well dressed young men cannot move enough snow to allow someone to get back into the tent and retrieve clothing/footwear? How high was this snow wall, 10metres?

There is every evidence that someone made a snow den. The poles were cut nearby, there are fragments of clothing dropped in the snow near the site presumably to be used as seats. There is the clothing associated with the four seat positions that Yudin never challenged as not belonging to the group. They had the expert in Semyon. The rescue party believe that the fire indicated it had been extinguished. There is every indication that they put out the fire and moved to the den, probably built by just Semyon and Nicolai.

1-3cm of snow in 3 weeks is not an indicator of a "fair breeze" imo. More like no breeze. They were ok by the fire and imo the decision to abandon the fire and go underground hints at the same reason that forced them from the tent and prevented a return and singed the young trees at the treeline - noxious chemical vapours.

[Star man]

Things can get quickly out of control in the conditions they were camping.  I don’t necessarily think that it was caused by a snow wall collapse, but possibly a very localised snow slide resulting from destabilising the snow by digging an area for the tent.  If there was a snow slide that partially buried the tent with over a tonne of snow then after getting everyone out they would have had minutes to make a decision.  While the two well dressed people attempted to dig out the tent the others would quickly become cold and have less chance of survival.

I’m not sure everyone understands how precarious a situation they were in.  They were totally dependent on their tent for survival and they pitched in a very risky area.

Even if they had dug out the tent it is likely that those with poor clothing would be suffering the effects of hypothermia and they would still not have a whole tent because they had damaged it when trying to get out.  Their hands would become useless very quickly as made clear from Krivo’s frustration in biting his own finger.

Saying that the theory like most others is not without its flaws and questions.  Such as why was there a jacket and sneakers not far from the tent.

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

Things can get quickly out of control in the conditions they were camping.  I don’t necessarily think that it was caused by a snow wall collapse, but possibly a very localised snow slide resulting from destabilising the snow by digging an area for the tent.  This snow slide didn't disturb the signs of urination? The alpine experts that inspected the tent so no signs of a slide? If there was a snow slide that partially buried the tent with over a tonne of snow then after getting everyone out they would have had minutes to make a decision.  While the two well dressed people attempted to dig out the tent the others would quickly become cold and have less chance of survival. So why not leave the well dressed pair up there to dig out the snow and bring everything down when achieved? Why couldn't they return.
WHY DID THEY FLEE THE TENT AREA AND NOT GO BACK EVEN IF WELL DRESSED?
I’m not sure everyone understands how precarious a situation they were in.  They were totally dependent on their tent for survival and they pitched in a very risky area.

Even if they had dug out the tent it is likely that those with poor clothing would be suffering the effects of hypothermia and they would still not have a whole tent because they had damaged it when trying to get out.  Their hands would become useless very quickly as made clear from Krivo’s frustration in biting his own finger.

Saying that the theory like most others is not without its flaws and questions. Is there a more flawed theory? It's simply the least credible imo. Such as why was there a jacket and sneakers not far from the tent.

Regards

Star man

[Star man]

Things can get quickly out of control in the conditions they were camping.  I don’t necessarily think that it was caused by a snow wall collapse, but possibly a very localised snow slide resulting from destabilising the snow by digging an area for the tent.  This snow slide didn't disturb the signs of urination? The alpine experts that inspected the tent so no signs of a slide? If there was a snow slide that partially buried the tent with over a tonne of snow then after getting everyone out they would have had minutes to make a decision.  While the two well dressed people attempted to dig out the tent the others would quickly become cold and have less chance of survival. So why not leave the well dressed pair up there to dig out the snow and bring everything down when achieved? Why couldn't they return.
WHY DID THEY FLEE THE TENT AREA AND NOT GO BACK EVEN IF WELL DRESSED?
I’m not sure everyone understands how precarious a situation they were in.  They were totally dependent on their tent for survival and they pitched in a very risky area.

Even if they had dug out the tent it is likely that those with poor clothing would be suffering the effects of hypothermia and they would still not have a whole tent because they had damaged it when trying to get out.  Their hands would become useless very quickly as made clear from Krivo’s frustration in biting his own finger.

Saying that the theory like most others is not without its flaws and questions. Is there a more flawed theory? It's simply the least credible imo. Such as why was there a jacket and sneakers not far from the tent.

Regards

Star man

Much of the snow was scoured away by the wind, hence the raised foot prints.  The traces of urine may have been further away from the stent than the slide.

The tent was covered in snow when found so there must have been localised drifting that could have masked any traces of a slide.

They probably did intend to return in the morning when it was light and the weather had improved, but they didn't long enough to complete their plan and the injuries added complexity to their plight.

The theory would explain the cuts in the tent and how they were made - cutting through the seemed would take time.  You would not do this if you were looking for a quick escape.

I think it's a simple and credible theory.

Regards  Star man

[Nigel Evans]

If seven people can get out and a tent pole stays erect then one well dressed person with gloves and a ski pole can get back in. You don't walk a mile in -15C/-20C plus huge windchill in your socks instead.

Regards.

[Monty]

Fair point. Perhaps the two well dressed hikers had already left the scene?

[Star man]

If seven people can get out and a tent pole stays erect then one well dressed person with gloves and a ski pole can get back in. You don't walk a mile in -15C/-20C plus huge windchill in your socks instead.

Regards.

Ok that is a good challenge to the theory.  If the front of the tent was still standing and accessible then they should have been able to retrieve more gear.  The shoes/boots were piled up toward the front of the tent they should have been able to retrieve more of them. 

Regards
Star man