June 04, 2020, 09:00:09 PM
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Author Topic: Tent was their lifeboat  (Read 687 times)

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April 08, 2020, 09:07:36 AM
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MDGross


In the ocean of such brutal weather, why would the Dyatlov group move very far from the tent that was their lifeboat? They most surely knew that to walk almost a mile to the forest as poorly dressed as they were meant almost certain death. If the tent was filled with toxic fumes, why not just step outside and wait for the fumes to dissipate? If a snow wall had fallen on their tent, why couldn't nine people quickly remove the snow and get the tent back in good order? Their only chance to survive was to stay with the tent. Why would you jump from a lifeboat into a freezing ocean when in 15 minutes you will have frozen to death?
Which begs the question, were they forced at gunpoint to walk to the woods? If your choice is to start walking or get shot where you stand, who wouldn't take the chance of walking to the woods and trying to survive? 

April 08, 2020, 04:20:41 PM
Reply #1
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Jean Daniel Reuss


One of the enigmas raised by the DPI is: "Why did they come out of the tent underdressed? »
One possible answer that is very satisfying is: "Because the atmosphere inside the tent had suddenly become unbreathable. »

This answer had already been found, see:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=447.0
Liyla79 General Discussion > I have figured it out
June 20, 2019, 02:15:20 AM    The group were deliberately GASSED out of the tent.

This is what I am developing in a more complete way in my scenario N°2 which I think extends the arguments of Per Inge Ostermoen... and others .
See ;
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=484.0
April 07, 2020, 12:44:33 PM Reply #19
   There was an attack by some ex-zeks from settlement 41.

The question changes to: "How to quickly make the inside of a 5 m³ enclosed space unbreathable? »

One possible answer is very simple. In fact, at the age of 13, I had learned in college exactly how to do it with 1 or 2 kg of inexpensive products.
And moreover I was doing small demonstrations but OUTSIDE with only 1 g of product.

This is the reaction :
 
2.KNO³ + 4.S -->   3.SO² + N² + K²S

202 g of potassium nitrate mixed with 128 g of sulphur provide 67.2 litres of sulphur dioxide (measured at 0°C)
The (high) speed of combustion (rather deflagration) depends on the fineness of the 2 powders and the humidity.

Note:
Of course other suffocating gases are conceivable but KNO³ and S are (or were) particularly easy to acquire without attracting attention in the USSR as elsewhere.   
With potassium chlorate it is almost the same:
2.KClO³ + 3.S ---> 3.SO² + 2.KCl

Cl² is better than SO² but sodium hypochlorite and hydrochloric acid are in liquid form difficult to use in surprise attack.
 
HOCl + HCl ---> Cl² + H²O

Also, from 9 p.m. the head attacker lights the wick and by spreading one side of the tent opening introduces 3.3 kg of the ignited mixture 2 KNO³ + 4 S.
Within 30 seconds 672 litres of SO² are released in the 4 m³ of the tent interior.

I can guarantee you that all 9 hikers came out of the tent in terrible coughing fits.
The 9 hikers had a burning sensation in their eyes and could hardly see anything.
This also explains the knife lacerations made, without much effectiveness, from inside the tent.

Note that 10 minutes later the effects of the SO² had (almost?) disappeared and on this point they could have been considered almost healed.



..... If the tent was filled with toxic fumes, why not just step outside and wait for the fumes to dissipate? ................................

But what is important is that the moment they left the tent in a state of inferiority the attackers immediately started hitting them with blunt objects. (cf. Tumanov)

They try to channel them in one direction by hitting them continuously.
The number of ex-zek attackers is hard to determine.
I imagine there are three strikers, but that is debatable. One leading them down the slope; the other two are on either side of the line that is forming.

In complete darkness the 12 staggering black figures are barely visible against the white background of the snow. The ground is slippery and uneven. Violent and imprecise blows are made on both sides almost at random. But blunt objects are more effective than bare fists...

 • Around 10 p.m. first Kolmogorova, then Slobodin and finally Dyatlov, despite a desperate defence, lie unconscious on the slope. They are badly banged up and have bloody fists from hitting. The cold will soon finish them off.

The contact is broken. The 3 ex-zeks go back up to the empty tent and wait while they regain some of their strength from the punches they have received. They know that the six remaining hikers will not be able to reach settlement 41 without skis.

 • midnight. A light in the night: it is the fire under the cedar. Doroshenko is attacked when krivonishenko is at the top of the cedar cutting green branches to maintain the fire. He is burned at the legs with a burning branch from the fire.
 • 2 February around 1 p.m...  Doroshenko and Krinonishenko lie unconscious at the foot of the cedar and the cold will soon finish them off.

As there are still 4 hikers to find and kill, a tactic of the Mongolian army will be able to serve.
      Disappear temporarily to make the survivors believe it is over, then return to the scene and finish the job.
 • 2 February around 5 p.m...  The job of the ex-zeks is over, it has been hard !
to be continued...
Jean Daniel Reuss
Guidance for finding a rational scenario to explain a cold case
 • The solution takes in consideration all the physical clues.
 • Think about : Who ? Why ? How ?
 • The plausible explanations are consistent with the historical, military, political and psychological contexts.
 • The truth is often far from fantasy scenarios.

April 08, 2020, 11:55:10 PM
Reply #2
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mishka




Hello,  MDGross

it's exactly the same reason I thought why leave the tent?
in my version
 "a personal version of the events of the year 1959 February "  which you can read in my post. I give a pretty interesting idea why maybe they left the tent

April 09, 2020, 08:07:32 AM
Reply #3
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MDGross


Hello Mishka, My thought that they were forced out of the tent at gunpoint is purely speculation. But the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm interested in what others like yourself think. It seems to me that Russian citizens are more likely than others to consider murder/execution a real possibility. I don't think Americans, for example, know what's it like to live under a repressive political system.
The Soviet military could have been involved as you write in your original post. I tend to think it was the KGB.

Jean Daniel: As always, a very detailed post. It's not clear what the motive of the ex-zeks was. And why beat the hikers so severely? They posed no threat.

April 09, 2020, 08:59:41 AM
Reply #4
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Nigel Evans


Imo the Yeti theory has more legs than the murder theory. I can't see men with guns planning to ascend a mountain carrying lead piping...  lol4

If they didn't have guns then there would have been signs of a fight, instead we have the footsteps of two people wearing valenki (presumed to be Semyon and Nicolai) being away from the tent and their footsteps converging with the main group further downhill.

No they walked down the mountain on their own, lit a fire and built a den to leave and stay away from the tent area. @Jean Daniel - i'd agree with noxious vapour forcing them out but would prefer missile fuel, ideally hydrazine and nitric acid.

April 09, 2020, 10:17:48 AM
Reply #5
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MDGross


Yes, toxic missile fumes is quite possible. Excluding human intervention by the KGB, Soviet military, ex-zeks, Yeti (I guess that counts as human), I think the toxic fumes scenario is the most plausible (excluding the track vehicle part, which I just can't envision!). But I always come back to the same questions: Wouldn't toxic fumes cover a large area, including the woods? And wouldn't the toxic fumes clear out of the tent in 15 minutes or so? Best to stay near the tent instead of walking to almost certain death.

April 09, 2020, 10:40:56 AM
Reply #6
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Jean Daniel Reuss


..........
.......... It's not clear what the motive of the ex-zeks was. And why beat the hikers so severely? They posed no threat.

The motives of these ex-zeks are unfortunately obvious when we know a little about the history of European countries...
( I see I have to work on the beginning of the writing of my scenario N°2 which is not finished.)

In the waiting, I leave you a hint to study this subject, which is still delicate at the present time. It only takes one word :
Katyn
Jean Daniel Reuss
Guidance for finding a rational scenario to explain a cold case
 • The solution takes in consideration all the physical clues.
 • Think about : Who ? Why ? How ?
 • The plausible explanations are consistent with the historical, military, political and psychological contexts.
 • The truth is often far from fantasy scenarios.

April 10, 2020, 02:17:31 PM
Reply #7
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
In the ocean of such brutal weather, why would the Dyatlov group move very far from the tent that was their lifeboat? They most surely knew that to walk almost a mile to the forest as poorly dressed as they were meant almost certain death. If the tent was filled with toxic fumes, why not just step outside and wait for the fumes to dissipate? If a snow wall had fallen on their tent, why couldn't nine people quickly remove the snow and get the tent back in good order? Their only chance to survive was to stay with the tent. Why would you jump from a lifeboat into a freezing ocean when in 15 minutes you will have frozen to death?
Which begs the question, were they forced at gunpoint to walk to the woods? If your choice is to start walking or get shot where you stand, who wouldn't take the chance of walking to the woods and trying to survive?

The Tent is obviously a major factor in this Dyatlov Mystery. Many times in this Forum we broach upon the subject of The Tent. And many times has it been suggested that the Dyatlov Group were led away at gunpoint.  But doesnt it seem a bit strange that if they were led away at gunpoint then how come all the other subsequent events take place  !  ?  What is going on at The Cedar Tree for instance  !  ?  Where are the gunmen or gunman and what are they doing  !  ?  It doesnt make sense.
DB

April 10, 2020, 02:29:51 PM
Reply #8
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hello Mishka, My thought that they were forced out of the tent at gunpoint is purely speculation. But the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm interested in what others like yourself think. It seems to me that Russian citizens are more likely than others to consider murder/execution a real possibility. I don't think Americans, for example, know what's it like to live under a repressive political system.
The Soviet military could have been involved as you write in your original post. I tend to think it was the KGB.

Jean Daniel: As always, a very detailed post. It's not clear what the motive of the ex-zeks was. And why beat the hikers so severely? They posed no threat.


Are you sure about your statement about Americans not knowing what its like to live in a repressive political system  !  ?  Seems like not long ago you had a serious RACISM problem and may still have one albeit more discreet these days. Not to mention the banning of the Communist Party.  Hardly democratic.  In fact life in Soviet Russia was not as bad as often portrayed in certain western countries.  Its unfortunate that the KGB still gets a bad press by certain western countries.  Are we to believe that the CIA and other such like organisations are bunches of Saints  !  ?  Surely its time to bury the myth about the KGB being responsible for the demise of The Dyatlov Group.
DB

April 11, 2020, 10:38:04 AM
Reply #9
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MDGross


I didn't mean to imply that America doesn't face a multitude of problems, including racism. And although the communist party was outlawed in 1954, no administration has ever tried to enforce it. It remains an active organization: www.cpusa.org. No where have I written that life in the Soviet Union in 1959 was terribly bad of harsh. Russians who were alive in 1959 will have to answer what it was like.
Espionage can often be a gruesome endeavor. That certainly includes the CIA, the KGB and, oh yeah, the SIS/MI6. That's as true today as in 1959. I'm only raising the question: Was the KGB involved with the DPI? Or for that matter, the CIA? Or MI6 working in conjunction with the CIA? When state secrets are at risk, it's pretty clear what often happens.

April 11, 2020, 03:08:14 PM
Reply #10
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Jean Daniel Reuss


..................  Surely its time to bury the myth about the KGB being responsible for the demise of The Dyatlov Group.

........ I'm only raising the question: Was the KGB involved with the DPI?..............................


IMHO, i.e. according to my hypothesis N° 2 the KGB was fooled and deceived. It proved unable to protect the lives of the 9 hikers, good Soviet citizens, although this was clearly part of its missions.
The KGB turned out to be inefficient and incompetent and even made a complete laughing stock of itself.

This is one of the reasons, among others more important, why the Soviet authorities with Khushchev, and then the Russian authorities with Putin, imposed state secrecy.

 The KGB probably understood nothing before March 17, 1959 when "Vladimir Korotaev was fired and Lev Ivanov was assigned as a lead investigator".


  • Note. There is still some doubt as the date of 6 February 1959 appears twice in the DPI archives.
However the argument of WAB seems convincing to me: WAB explains that the replacement of "6 March" by "6 February" is the result of a simple clerical error.

    mishka      March 26, 2020, 02:29:23
a personal version of the events of the year 1959 February
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=611.msg8785#msg8785
 "DATE CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION
The date of the criminal investigation is given as the 6th of February indicating that the authorities opened the case even before it was officially known that the hikers were missing !!!
at this point no more doubt is possible army and the kgb are involved the reason and that when the report was written and was put away at first , and then forgot to be destroyed !!!
and therefore another document was written once the bodies were found, and why ?? simply if army or kgb had discovered the bodies of hikers first means on February 6 ..it could have been suspicious"

       Per Inge Oestmoen on May 07, 2018, 08:04:47 AM     Reply #26
Re: First results from Zolotaryov's exhumation - Komsomolskaya Pravda
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=156.0
1. "...The fact that the official papers state that the first steps of the investigation were taken on February 6 is worth noting. If this date is not mistaken, it means that the authorities were aware of what had happened and prepared for an investigation long before anyone else knew that the nine students were missing."

      WAB May 07, 2018, 12:54:46 PM   [/b]                   Reply #27             
Re: First results from Zolotaryov's exhumation - Komsomolskaya Pravda
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=156.0
2.   "....Date on February, 6th, is specified in case it is double error occurring from requirements of carrying out of criminal cases and archival documents. In criminal case all papers are attached in the order of their receipt in case. The report where this date is specified is between date March, 7th 1959 (sheet #46) and date February, 7th 1959 (sheet #49) inside the middle of them. The report with date  is on February, 6th 1959 on sheet # 48 and the sheet #49 has been attached after sheet #46, but earlier because it has been written by other official who has brought it from other (more remote) point, but simultaneously with the others with similar dates.
At transferring of structure of criminal case to archive, the clerk of archive has place dated in the beginning of case which is most the first. So it is required under the instruction.
From here all incorrect judgements about the case beginning follow.
The official who made it the report was mistaken and has written instead of March, 6th 1959, erroneous date February, 6th 1959. Month March only has begun also it wrote by inertia erroneous date.
Jean Daniel Reuss
Guidance for finding a rational scenario to explain a cold case
 • The solution takes in consideration all the physical clues.
 • Think about : Who ? Why ? How ?
 • The plausible explanations are consistent with the historical, military, political and psychological contexts.
 • The truth is often far from fantasy scenarios.

April 12, 2020, 04:07:05 AM
Reply #11
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Nigel Evans


Hello Mishka, My thought that they were forced out of the tent at gunpoint is purely speculation. But the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm interested in what others like yourself think. It seems to me that Russian citizens are more likely than others to consider murder/execution a real possibility. I don't think Americans, for example, know what's it like to live under a repressive political system.
The Soviet military could have been involved as you write in your original post. I tend to think it was the KGB.

Jean Daniel: As always, a very detailed post. It's not clear what the motive of the ex-zeks was. And why beat the hikers so severely? They posed no threat.


Are you sure about your statement about Americans not knowing what its like to live in a repressive political system  !  ?  Seems like not long ago you had a serious RACISM problem and may still have one albeit more discreet these days. Not to mention the banning of the Communist Party.  Hardly democratic.  In fact life in Soviet Russia was not as bad as often portrayed in certain western countries.  Its unfortunate that the KGB still gets a bad press by certain western countries.  Are we to believe that the CIA and other such like organisations are bunches of Saints  !  ?  Surely its time to bury the myth about the KGB being responsible for the demise of The Dyatlov Group.
Anyone defending Stalin's Russia should checkout the movie "Mr Jones", i didn't realise his story was the inspiration for "Animal Farm" by George Orwell.

April 12, 2020, 09:42:40 AM
Reply #12
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Jean Daniel Reuss


   Anyone defending Stalin's Russia should checkout the movie "Mr Jones"................

 Mr Jones is a  film which loosely tells the story of Gareth Jones, a journalist who uncovers the truth about the Holodomor, the manmade famine in Ukraine.

I presume that everyone interested in DPI has some vague knowledge of the history of the USSR.

So everyone here can understand that, pretty much, the DPI is the exact opposite of the assassination of Gareth Jones by the
NKVD, the ancestor of the KGB. It is very likely that:

 1- Gareth Jones(13 August 1905 - 12 August 1935), was murdered, on 12 August 1935, by the Soviet NKVD, as revenge for the embarrassment he had caused the Soviet regime.


 2- The KGB failed to protect the nine hikers who died on February 2, 1959, in revenge for Stalin's crimes, killed by combatants of an unfinished war; they were ex-zeks who had many good reason to hate the Russian oppressors, the communism and the Soviet Union.

I obtained theses background informations by reading the following web site articles:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gareth_Jones_(journalist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr_Jones_(2019_film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnieszka_Holland

In the same spirit, if you like movies, you can also check out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katy%C5%84_(film)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrzej_Wajda

============================

I would like to take this opportunity to note a few remarks that may be useful to consolidate my scenario N° 2.

  ••• Author : Keith Mc Closey Mountain of the Dead : The Dyatlov Pass Incident; 2013
https://www.amazon.com/Mountain-Dead-Dyatlov-Pass-Incident-ebook/dp/B01M97NSI4

 • On the ex-zeks, who in 1959 were living in Ivdel, Vizhay and in the numerous special settlements in the surroundings.

"Many prisoners who were released from the nearby camps decided to stay in the town as they were nowhere else to go.
The result was that by 1959, a large segment of Ivdel's population was a strange mixture of former guards and the formerly guarded."

 • On Dubinina's unbearable words for an anti-communist, enemy to the Soviet Union.

"She was also a very forthright and outspoken girl who held strong opinions. Her enthusiasm could be summed in a phrase she used from time to time : "for the Motherland  For Stalin ! It was said to her that she would not hesitate to tell someone staight to their face if she thought they were wrong in any way.

  ••• :    Aleks Kandr   and Sabine Lechtenfeld
https://dyatlovpass.com/dubininas-premonition?lid=1&flp=1#sabine

"...This is in complete agreement with the opinion of O. Arhipov: "Well, it is known that Lyudmila Aleksandrovna was sharp on the tongue and principled. She would not keep her mouth shut.".

"...the fact that her tongue was missing may have been due to her forthrightness and outspokenness..
...It also could be a symbol that the mutilated victim will never again be able to talk...
The reason that her injuries were more horrific than the injuries of the others could simply be due to the fact that she may have been more resilient, and therefore she enraged the killers."
Jean Daniel Reuss
Guidance for finding a rational scenario to explain a cold case
 • The solution takes in consideration all the physical clues.
 • Think about : Who ? Why ? How ?
 • The plausible explanations are consistent with the historical, military, political and psychological contexts.
 • The truth is often far from fantasy scenarios.

April 14, 2020, 10:37:07 AM
Reply #13
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Hello Mishka, My thought that they were forced out of the tent at gunpoint is purely speculation. But the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm interested in what others like yourself think. It seems to me that Russian citizens are more likely than others to consider murder/execution a real possibility. I don't think Americans, for example, know what's it like to live under a repressive political system.
The Soviet military could have been involved as you write in your original post. I tend to think it was the KGB.

Jean Daniel: As always, a very detailed post. It's not clear what the motive of the ex-zeks was. And why beat the hikers so severely? They posed no threat.


Are you sure about your statement about Americans not knowing what its like to live in a repressive political system  !  ?  Seems like not long ago you had a serious RACISM problem and may still have one albeit more discreet these days. Not to mention the banning of the Communist Party.  Hardly democratic.  In fact life in Soviet Russia was not as bad as often portrayed in certain western countries.  Its unfortunate that the KGB still gets a bad press by certain western countries.  Are we to believe that the CIA and other such like organisations are bunches of Saints  !  ?  Surely its time to bury the myth about the KGB being responsible for the demise of The Dyatlov Group.
Anyone defending Stalin's Russia should checkout the movie "Mr Jones", i didn't realise his story was the inspiration for "Animal Farm" by George Orwell.

Just for the record, I do not defend any political system. The World has been a mixing pot of ideas since time immemorial. Iam stating facts.
DB

April 14, 2020, 10:41:28 AM
Reply #14
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I didn't mean to imply that America doesn't face a multitude of problems, including racism. And although the communist party was outlawed in 1954, no administration has ever tried to enforce it. It remains an active organization: www.cpusa.org. No where have I written that life in the Soviet Union in 1959 was terribly bad of harsh. Russians who were alive in 1959 will have to answer what it was like.
Espionage can often be a gruesome endeavor. That certainly includes the CIA, the KGB and, oh yeah, the SIS/MI6. That's as true today as in 1959. I'm only raising the question: Was the KGB involved with the DPI? Or for that matter, the CIA? Or MI6 working in conjunction with the CIA? When state secrets are at risk, it's pretty clear what often happens.

Yes thats correct what you say. But for any secret service to be involved there would have needed to have been a good reason and that is something I personally cant find in this Dyatlov Saga.  Obviously information has been trickling through since the fall of the USSR and Teddy has been one of the leaders to bring that information to us.
DB

April 18, 2020, 11:49:21 PM
Reply #15
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mishka


by the way , I would like to know where the tent has been stored ? is anyone know


April 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
Reply #16
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Rtael


by the way , I would like to know where the tent has been stored ? is anyone know

I read somewhere it was stored in evidence for a while, then when the 'time' was up for how long they had to keep it for evidence, someone took it - can't remember one of the investigators or family members/friends? Then it was later lost/destroyed....a fire I think?

May 06, 2020, 02:15:24 AM
Reply #17
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Monika


One explanation:

The tent was hit by an electric current from plasmoid ball and a closed circuit was formed. It could have happened on the front side of the tent at the entrance. The ski poles serve like a lightning rod.
They may have waited outside for a while to waiting it disappears, but over time they find it won't end that soon. So they left to the wood. The detailed theory can be see at: https://sites.google.com/site/mezoelectric/dyatlov-pass-incident-1
This would explain why they could not return to the tent all the time.
This natural, albeit unexplored phenomenon could have lasted for hours and later moved to the forest, it could have been attracted by a fire - as indicated by the occurrence of slightly burned cedar ends near the fire, which Ivanov noticed.

I have no doubt that there are a number of phenomena unknown to us on Earth that we cannot explain even today.

May 06, 2020, 06:34:54 AM
Reply #18
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Marley


The ski poles serve like a lightning rod.

Unfortunately, the ski poles were made from bamboo. Not really lightning rod material.

May 06, 2020, 09:29:17 AM
Reply #19
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Nigel Evans



It wouldn't matter. Google St Elmo's fire.


May 13, 2020, 08:16:00 PM
Reply #20
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brad112


New here...tried to read as much as I can and to find this answer, but my question:

Is there any evidence that any part of the tent was burned or even burn marks? Any evidence of a possible fire in the tent?

Thanks.
Brad

May 13, 2020, 11:23:38 PM
Reply #21
Online

sparrow


Brad, I haven't read anywhere about there being burn marks on the tent.  But in this case, who knows? bang1

May 16, 2020, 02:28:31 PM
Reply #22
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
New here...tried to read as much as I can and to find this answer, but my question:

Is there any evidence that any part of the tent was burned or even burn marks? Any evidence of a possible fire in the tent?

Thanks.
Brad

Unfortunately because the Tent went missing we cant examine it. I dont recall any mention of Burns to the Tent.
DB