St. Elmo's fire

[PJ]

So something new to the atmospheric phenomenons ;)

I am not into the Lightning strike / Ball lightning theory at all, from my point of view this atmospheric phenomenons last too short to force people to run away from the tent, and if there will be thunderstorm they will dress up properly before leaving.

But there is another atmospheric phenomenon called: St. Elmo's fire ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire )
It do not need thunderstorm to happened and it is not very unusual phenomenon, but could scared people and could last for some time ( in this meteo station it was observed few times: https://atoptics.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/extremely-st-elmos-fire-on-mt-hoher-sonnblick/ ).

From the last normal photo where they set up the camp looks like that they are in clouds so one of the conditions that usually happens with St. Elmo's fire. It is possible that it happen there, but do you think that if the sparks start going from tent and skies around it will scared them enough to decided to not touch the tent, and after waiting around for a bit and the sparks still going just go down to forest for shelter?

[Monika]

Hello,I was fascinated by this theory.

If the tent was struck by an electric current and the circuit closed, they did not get back into the tent for a long time. This theory is one that would explain:
1. Why didn't they leave the tent through the buttoned entrance
2. Why couldn't they pick things from the tent later
3. Their organized and normal transport into the forest and their other “cold-blooded” activity as build of the fire, the den.
Whether this phenomenon could have moved later into the forest (to the fire and the den where it caused a blast wave, which caused severe injuries to Ljuda nand Zolotarev) or whether other phenomena joined this phenomenon near the den - these are only theoretical possibilities. Unfortunately, st.Elmo or plasmoids phenomena in nature have not yet been explored but it is well-known that in Ural mountains took place  and killed/injured in the past.

[Nigel Evans]

 I think it's unlikely that SEF on it's own could scare them out of the tent not to return. Some members of the group were highly technical and would have just been interested rather than scared. It would have to have been more than just "a glowing".

[PJ]

As I said, I am not big fan of the atmospheric phenomenons theory, I just write about the St. Elmo's fires as it is something that I am familiar with.

I think that St. Elmo's fires could scared them out of tent, even to cut it for quick escape as the sparks could be very frightening but after leaving the tent they will figure it out that it is not that dangerous - they were inside the tent with the St. Elmo's fires on it and nobody got hurt so it mean that at last we could touch the tent and take some gear before going down to forest.

Each of the atmospheric phenomenons has some weak points that make them not frightening enough to leave the tent immediately or not return to it for a long time. It is very unlikely that two or three of them happens in one time.

[sarapuk]

So something new to the atmospheric phenomenons ;)

I am not into the Lightning strike / Ball lightning theory at all, from my point of view this atmospheric phenomenons last too short to force people to run away from the tent, and if there will be thunderstorm they will dress up properly before leaving.

But there is another atmospheric phenomenon called: St. Elmo's fire ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire )
It do not need thunderstorm to happened and it is not very unusual phenomenon, but could scared people and could last for some time ( in this meteo station it was observed few times: https://atoptics.wordpress.com/2013/10/11/extremely-st-elmos-fire-on-mt-hoher-sonnblick/ ).

From the last normal photo where they set up the camp looks like that they are in clouds so one of the conditions that usually happens with St. Elmo's fire. It is possible that it happen there, but do you think that if the sparks start going from tent and skies around it will scared them enough to decided to not touch the tent, and after waiting around for a bit and the sparks still going just go down to forest for shelter?

You hit the nail on the head straight away when you intimated that people would not be easily scared and would have the time and inclination to dress properly. And that would probably apply to both short or longer atmospheric phenomena.

[PJ]

You hit the nail on the head straight away when you intimated that people would not be easily scared and would have the time and inclination to dress properly. And that would probably apply to both short or longer atmospheric phenomena.

The atmospheric phenomenons could scared easily but it is not enough in this case. This is how I see it:
Lightning strike - scared, could force to leave tent for long time but people are familiar with it so they will dress up and prepare before going to forest. And it usually not happens in winter
Ball lightning - scared, could force to leave tent immediately, even by cutting it out, but not last for long so the tent will be accessible shortly after. Even if followed by lightnings they will take some stuff from tent.
St. Elmo's fires - scared, could force to leave tent immediately, even by cutting it out, last long but they should figure it out that it is not as bad as looks like so they will take some stuff from tent.

Not sure if it is possible to have it all together, only in this case they will abandon the tent immediately, without returning for long time.
As well in winter all the atmospheric electrical phenomenons are very rare except St. Elmo's fires.

[sarapuk]

You hit the nail on the head straight away when you intimated that people would not be easily scared and would have the time and inclination to dress properly. And that would probably apply to both short or longer atmospheric phenomena.

The atmospheric phenomenons could scared easily but it is not enough in this case. This is how I see it:
Lightning strike - scared, could force to leave tent for long time but people are familiar with it so they will dress up and prepare before going to forest. And it usually not happens in winter
Ball lightning - scared, could force to leave tent immediately, even by cutting it out, but not last for long so the tent will be accessible shortly after. Even if followed by lightnings they will take some stuff from tent.
St. Elmo's fires - scared, could force to leave tent immediately, even by cutting it out, last long but they should figure it out that it is not as bad as looks like so they will take some stuff from tent.

Not sure if it is possible to have it all together, only in this case they will abandon the tent immediately, without returning for long time.
As well in winter all the atmospheric electrical phenomenons are very rare except St. Elmo's fires.

Well done for putting it this way.  Its good to have as many different perspectives as possible, especially ones that make sense.

[firefox]

As I said, I am not big fan of the atmospheric phenomenons theory, I just write about the St. Elmo's fires as it is something that I am familiar with.

I think that St. Elmo's fires could scared them out of tent, even to cut it for quick escape as the sparks could be very frightening but after leaving the tent they will figure it out that it is not that dangerous - they were inside the tent with the St. Elmo's fires on it and nobody got hurt so it mean that at last we could touch the tent and take some gear before going down to forest.

Each of the atmospheric phenomenons has some weak points that make them not frightening enough to leave the tent immediately or not return to it for a long time. It is very unlikely that two or three of them happens in one time.

I feel that ball iightning, (and the injuries it can leave) is indeed frightening enough to force them to leave the tent...there are corroborating stories for this...

[Paf]

St Elmo fire wouldn't have made then leave the tent, or they would have lay down every and each ski and ski pole around the tent (as it mean risk of lightening).
This phenomen is currant in high mountains (in the alpes, high climbers were talking about "the bees", as the first thing they got from it was the sound of it... And it mean a lot for them as lots of climber got hit by a lightening right after.), I doubt they never heard of it before.

But what about sprites ?


I don't think it would have made then leave the tent, since they had to be far enough to see it. But it matches pretty much exactly the description of of the Mansi. (though there are differents sprites, but they still CAN look that way !)

[Nigel Evans]

Superb photo.

[sarapuk]

St Elmo fire wouldn't have made then leave the tent, or they would have lay down every and each ski and ski pole around the tent (as it mean risk of lightening).
This phenomen is currant in high mountains (in the alpes, high climbers were talking about "the bees", as the first thing they got from it was the sound of it... And it mean a lot for them as lots of climber got hit by a lightening right after.), I doubt they never heard of it before.

But what about sprites ?


I don't think it would have made then leave the tent, since they had to be far enough to see it. But it matches pretty much exactly the description of of the Mansi. (though there are differents sprites, but they still CAN look that way !)

Can you provide the reference that it matches the description of the Mansi  !  ? 

[Paf]

I had hard time finding it again, but I have it !
It's not on this site, and I don't have russian version. But here's in english (with the link) :

“We were coming back from the forest and we could see the village ahead of us,” she says. “This bright, burning object appeared. It was wider at the front, and narrower at the back, with a tail, and there were sparks flying off it.”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/extra/SoLiOdJyCK/mystery_of_dyatlov_pass

(The red part of the sprite is usually appearing before the blue one -when they're both there-, allowing the blue part to be described as "the tail")

and there is paragraph here talking about the lights as "flash of light".
https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2013

Why was the military involved in the search?
This was on our request. And there were reasons for that. Shortly before that we met with a worker of one of the prison camps in the North Urals. He described strange flashes of light which he and his wife saw late that evening on their way home from the cinema. The light came from the direction of the supposed accident with the hikers. We also received evidence from other local residents, and all of them spoke about a similar phenomenon, all testimonies were entered on our records of interrogation. We got a suspicion of existence of a military test field somewhere around, could that be true? Could flashes be caused by a failed rocket launch that had killed the hikers?

I don't know any Russian, but when other are talking about the light lasting for 20 minutes, could it be several flashs instead of just one light ? Sprite can also take a ring form (elves) when they are even higher and stronger, but those one are lasting even less.

(And just : I don't think it would have had any real impact on what's happened. Maybe that was the reason they all got out undressed -a spectacular sight. But they would have seen it from far, so it would not have panic them to the point they would have cut the tent.
But it could be a natural explanation for the lights sights.  )