July 14, 2020, 05:21:09 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Photographs  (Read 783 times)

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May 28, 2020, 08:59:13 AM
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Marley



There are a number of photographs that may shed a light on what happened to the Dyatlov group.

The first, and easiest is Zolotaryov’s “Three heads” picture. It is the last proper photograph he took. Unfortunately we only have a low quality image. It comes across as a scan of a photocopy of a print, so we may be missing a lot of detail. But it’s unmistakably a photo of a bright object in the upper left corner. It doesn’t look like a technical failure because of its very recognizable round shape. Light leaks usually appear as streaks or bursts, sometimes as a fog covering the whole picture. They don’t take on a circular shape. One look at the negative can decide this question once and for all. If the edge (with the sprocket holes) is exposed, it’s a leak. If not, it’s a photograph. Personally I’m quite certain it is an actual photo.




But I’m not convinced that the three thingies at the bottom are heads. Actually, they don’t look like human heads at all. So I took it upon myself to enhance this part of the photograph to see if I could find some better explanation. And look:



They’re shrub heads!  tongue2


This is obviously a cut out from a Dyatlov Pass photo on this site:




The resemblance is uncanny. If these thingies are indeed backlit shrubs Zolotaryov must have taken this picture uphill. That would be to the Northwest to West of the tent, if I’m not mistaken.
This makes me wonder. All Dyatlov treks I’ve read about stay on the east side of the Otorten-Kholat Syakhl range. Do people sometimes visit the western slopes/valleys, oblast Komi? Because if this really is a picture of a missile/warhead/detonation it’s possible that the answer/debris is on the other side of the mountain. Hm.




Oh wow, I thought this one was going to be a walk in the park. I’ll save my musings on the other photographs for later.



May 28, 2020, 09:13:35 AM
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alecsandros


Question: do we know approximately when was this picture taken ? Because if it's the first of the pictures from Zorotalyov's camera, it may come from a different day...

May 28, 2020, 09:30:57 AM
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Teddy

Administrator
No we don't.

May 28, 2020, 09:31:45 AM
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alecsandros


But it is the first picture from his camera, i.e. first shoot ?

May 28, 2020, 09:41:36 AM
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Teddy

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None of this is a full shot or in order. These are very small fragments of a film roll that is horribly damaged. Maybe only the "three heads" is a little closer to a full shot but nobody knows if it is first in the roll.
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#zolotaryovcamera
Scroll to the point where it says:
"Please note that the images above, besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6."

May 28, 2020, 09:59:54 AM
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Nigel Evans


Excellent thread. I've always considered the Plane2 photo (if real) to be pointing west or north west.
But do these shrubs grow so high there?

May 28, 2020, 10:32:16 AM
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alecsandros


None of this is a full shot or in order. These are very small fragments of a film roll that is horribly damaged. Maybe only the "three heads" is a little closer to a full shot but nobody knows if it is first in the roll.
https://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#zolotaryovcamera
Scroll to the point where it says:
"Please note that the images above, besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6."
Who has the original film then ?

May 28, 2020, 11:07:28 AM
Reply #7
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Teddy

Administrator
Who has the original film then ?

There is no chain of custody for the films of Dyatlov group in general. On this page when you click on the links in the bullets, you will see the films that are available.
https://dyatlovpass.com/cameras
I am more interested in where did these come from. No one has seen the negatives.
https://dyatlovpass.com/loose-photos

As for the Zolotaryov's camera: Valentin Yakimenko, who was a fellow student to the Dyatlov group and a member of the rescue team, presented the scans of Zolotaryov camera, no negatives, for first time in 2015 at the annual Dyatlov Conference in UPI now Ural Federal University .

May 29, 2020, 02:38:29 AM
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sparrow


I have wondered if the photo of Simon was staged.  If the bodies had thawed out pretty much by the time that they were pulled out of the creek,then Simon could not have been holding a pen(cil) and notebook. They certainly would have fallen away upon removal. I have heard some say that they were thawed out because how could rodents, etc. have eaten away so much of the faces if they were frozen solid.  Also, how could Simon have held a pen(cil) to write, when his hands were surely (almost) frozen?  If they died in the den and were  washed to where they were found, how is it Simon didn't lose it at that time?

I have been outside for 30 minutes or a little less with bare hands, when it was well below zero, and within that time my hands would get so cold I couldn't use them to even open a door.  Someone else had to do it for me.  So how could Simon have held a pen(cil), and maybe wrote with it? afraid7 afraid7

May 29, 2020, 05:12:00 AM
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Nigel Evans


That's what the den (a snow cave) was for. It's purpose is to trap body heat and remove co2. Nicolai was found with his gloves in his pocket.

May 29, 2020, 10:54:24 PM
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sparrow


Hi Nigel.  I (for the most part), along with others, believe the coat he was wearing belonged to Lyuda. That explains why he didn't put the gloves on; he didn't know they were there. 

As for Simon, since he was found in the water and he was maybe somewhat thawed, the running water would surely have washed ( at least the pen(cil)) out of his hand.

If they were still frozen solid, how did their skin get eaten off?   
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 11:11:58 PM by sparrow »

May 29, 2020, 11:42:33 PM
Reply #11
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Teddy

Administrator
If they were still frozen solid, how did their skin get eaten off?   

They were in the water for at least 2 weeks so they couldn't be frozen solid all over. At least some parts were thawed. I remember something WAB said:
https://dyatlovpass.com/chivruay-incident-2#9

Parts of the bodies that were washed by the water could have been thawed and eaten away.

May 30, 2020, 06:12:18 AM
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alecsandros


As for the Zolotaryov's camera: Valentin Yakimenko, who was a fellow student to the Dyatlov group and a member of the rescue team, presented the scans of Zolotaryov camera, no negatives, for first time in 2015 at the annual Dyatlov Conference in UPI now Ural Federal University .
Did he explain about the missing 9 (10) photographs from the "Zolotaryov" 's film ?
Also, from Yuri Kuntsevich's interview given in 2016 ( available here: https://tass.com/society/889813 ), I understand there were more rolls of film existing with the skiers, a total of 10 rolls. Does anyone know more about them ? What happened to them, etc ?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 06:28:13 AM by alecsandros »

May 30, 2020, 07:02:51 AM
Reply #13
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Teddy

Administrator
Look in the case files, page 5 back and then page 6: https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-3-6#5back
The 10 rolls are only the ones outside the cameras. Some of them are blank. We know nothing in the sense how many were shot of these 10.

May 30, 2020, 07:19:12 AM
Reply #14
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alecsandros


Look in the case files, page 5 back and then page 6: https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-3-6#5back
The 10 rolls are only the ones outside the cameras. Some of them are blank. We know nothing in the sense how many were shot of these 10.
Thanks.
What's more mysterious is that Yuri Yudin said that "almost all of them were carrying a camera". And still we have only four found...

May 30, 2020, 07:34:14 AM
Reply #15
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Teddy

Administrator
And still we have only four found...

You are absolutely right. Many researchers like Rakitin count more cameras.
https://dyatlovpass.com/cameras
Read the last but one bullet:
With all said above we think there are at least two unaccounted cameras in addition to the 4 cameras from the crime inventory and the camera found on Zolotaryov's body.

May 30, 2020, 07:41:29 AM
Reply #16
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alecsandros


With all said above we think there are at least two unaccounted cameras in addition to the 4 cameras from the crime inventory and the camera found on Zolotaryov's body.
That further strengthens the case that somebody else knew about the unfortunate turn of events, before Fev 26th/27th...

Does anyone still have such cameras in working conditions ? It would be very usefull to attempt night photography with them in the same general lighting conditions as those existent during the night of Fev 1st/2nd 1959... 

May 31, 2020, 11:30:07 AM
Reply #17
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Marley


Question: do we know approximately when was this picture taken ? Because if it's the first of the pictures from Zorotalyov's camera, it may come from a different day...

I was wrong. This picture is not taken with Zolotaryov's camera. According to Keith McCloskey's description it was the first frame of a 12 frame long strip of negatives found at the Dyatlov Foundation. The next 10 frames showed (DPI) bodies in the morgue. The last one was blank. It wasn't Zolotaryov, but it was the last picture someone took.


May 31, 2020, 11:47:02 AM
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Marley


Excellent thread. I've always considered the Plane2 photo (if real) to be pointing west or north west.
But do these shrubs grow so high there?

Nige,
Tiny, tiny spots on on old photographic film are not a convincing mark of anything, are they ?
According to trek accounts these shrubs were there, at that altitude. But what do I know?  whist1

« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 12:06:32 PM by Marley »

June 23, 2020, 07:20:52 AM
Reply #19
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Nigel Evans


As said here https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=658.0 the three shrubs observation is a landmark.  loco1

Well done. But I feel it's wise to suggest caution with these photos, no one seems to have seen the negatives except for the displayed two frames that are clearly not exposed? (Woven mesh, Mushroom with face).
But again to my untrained eye Plane 2 and the three somethings seem to be actual photos.

Imo the solution to the DPI mystery could hinge on seeing those negatives.

June 23, 2020, 08:39:39 AM
Reply #20
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MDGross


Yes, analyzing the negatives would answer some questions. But you still need to consider how well a 1950's era camera works in the dark of night. In the case of the DPI photos, what was the f-stop and shutter speed set to? How sensitive was the film to light? Was a tripod used? These would greatly affect the photographs.

June 23, 2020, 01:40:16 PM
Reply #21
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Nigel Evans


A further question is why only one shot? Semyon survived the descent and got into the forest so why not get a another one or two frames of this thing adjusting the settings across a range of values? But perhaps he did and they were confiscated. From memory there are 9 missing frames on this roll. It is said that Semyon boasted to friends that he would be famous on the return from the trip. From the diary Igor had reservations of camping on the ridge, perhaps Semyon knew a lot about night photography....

June 25, 2020, 12:15:09 PM
Reply #22
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hoosiergose


Nigel - I like the way you think - you possess deductive reasoning and a very analytical mind. I thoroughly enjoy reading your post.
They inspire much thought

June 26, 2020, 12:00:40 AM
Reply #23
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Nigel Evans


Nigel - I like the way you think - you possess deductive reasoning and a very analytical mind. I thoroughly enjoy reading your post.
They inspire much thought
Many thanks.

June 27, 2020, 10:10:54 AM
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RidgeWatcher


Mr. Evans, I am curious if anyone has ever taken the camera/cameras type and film type, up to the the tent site at night, or the surrounding areas to see if they can simulate any of the photos. I know that the photograph with the two odd light has be discussed and debated but I was wondering if that photo could ever be replicated with the cameras and film of the era.



June 28, 2020, 05:56:57 AM
Reply #25
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Nigel Evans


I've just realised that i'm in error with attributing the three heads photo to Semyon. I have been busy recently. The photo does not belong to him but is attributed to Yuri K. It's the last frame in this roll :-

 



Also there is refutation of the meaning of the image - https://dyatlovpass.com/frame-34


My opinion is that an argument that a frame is redundant because it's been exposed to light is a tad weak... The interpretation of the "heads" as "shrubs" tips the balance in favour of it being genuine imo. Also if the horizontal lines that exist on the RHS and the LHS were due to mechanical damage why are they not present to some extent on the previous frame?
There's a good exchange on this in this thread - https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=270.120

June 28, 2020, 06:31:10 AM
Reply #26
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Nigel Evans


Mr. Evans, I am curious if anyone has ever taken the camera/cameras type and film type, up to the the tent site at night, or the surrounding areas to see if they can simulate any of the photos. I know that the photograph with the two odd light has be discussed and debated but I was wondering if that photo could ever be replicated with the cameras and film of the era.
Mr Evans? Why the formality? Dunno is the answer to the question.

There's this photo of "a light" apparently taken at the DP in 2012


 


It's from this website which is good reading for fireorb fans - https://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm

June 29, 2020, 10:46:34 AM
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WAB


Mr. Evans, I am curious if anyone has ever taken the camera/cameras type and film type, up to the the tent site at night, or the surrounding areas to see if they can simulate any of the photos. I know that the photograph with the two odd light has be discussed and debated but I was wondering if that photo could ever be replicated with the cameras and film of the era.

Mr. RidgeWatcher, it seems to me that you are asking a rhetorical question with preknown answer. This is the universal "disease" of modern digital photography slaves - they know absolutely nothing about the features of "chemical" photography (or photography on film).
On this site https://dyatlovpass.com/  I have already analyzed in detail the features of the so-called "mysterious photo 34 frames" - https://dyatlovpass.com/frame-34?rbid=18461  .many of this can be applied to the analysis of any photo from the same case.
About what Mr. Evans objects to you, I will write to him in the next message.
There have been numerous attempts take a similar photo on digital camera. But this requires many specific conditions. I suggested taking one on television because they have all the necessary conditions, but they refused for far-fetched reasons. In natural conditions, it requires lot of conditions and it's very difficult to do. Mainly because it's very unlikely that you can collect the right amount of equipment from those times and get the right weather at the same time. In addition, it requires certain and high financial costs. I have all the necessary developments, but nobody is interested in this yet

June 29, 2020, 10:48:41 AM
Reply #28
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WAB


Mr. Evans, I am curious if anyone has ever taken the camera/cameras type and film type, up to the the tent site at night, or the surrounding areas to see if they can simulate any of the photos. I know that the photograph with the two odd light has be discussed and debated but I was wondering if that photo could ever be replicated with the cameras and film of the era.
Mr Evans? Why the formality? Dunno is the answer to the question.

There's this photo of "a light" apparently taken at the DP in 2012


 


It's from this website which is good reading for fireorb fans - https://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm

Mr. Evans, you gave wonderful example of speculation on this subject. I am fully aware of where, how, and under what circumstances this photo was taken, and what sort of analysis it was made directly on the spot and further on in the Russian segments of the Internet.
This photo was taken in August 2012 by Alexander Koshkin (KAN) in presence the writer Oleg Arkhipov and Valentin Yakimenko, -  member search Dyatlov group.
At night Koshkin took picture as moon shines, through the branches of trees and "very scared". At the same time Valentin Yakimenko got out of the tent (where they slept) and immediately explained to the cat that it was the moonlight through the branches of trees. But then in the forums Koshkin "inflated" this story very much (intentionally without mentioning what he had been told before) and a lot of people who wanted to speculate on this photo started doing it immediately. Natalia Diakonova (author of the article on the Brazilian site) also took part in it completely thoughtlessly.
If you want to make sensations on such events, you are very much pushing back the time to solve this story about the Dyatlov group.
Once again I suggest you use only verified and reliable information...

PS. I read the article on Brazilian site carefully, but I did not find anything new or original there. All this is  retelling of long known information. By the way, there is a very large number of errors and twisting of known facts. If you want, I will give you a review of this article after some time with a specific indication of errors and fictions. I know where (from which sites and forums) most of the information was taken. There is a complete borrowing of my information from the forum that appeared then. Of course, it is without reference to the original source.
I have not found competent reasoning about the reasons there, if only because they describe the terrain and the course of events that depends on it completely wrong. There's retelling old myths and fiction.
The only advantage of this article can be considered that it was almost the very first information in Brazil about the Dyatlov incident.

June 30, 2020, 03:17:51 AM
Reply #29
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Nigel Evans


Dear Mr WAB sir!
Well i think i'm on the side of Mr Koshkin, that object seems to be glowing with more than moonlight and if so you would expect it to be hot and heating the surrounding air with the water vapour contained within condensing at the object's thermal boundary and drifting away as steam.


 


Although he should have reported Yakimenko's observation to maintain balance.


On a separate question. Keith McCloskey's book "Journey to Dyatlov Pass" states that the film strip marked "Zolotaryov" has a "Plane3" photo. Two questions :-
  • Do you know about a Plane3 photo?
  • Do you know if the negatives of this strip are available to be shared, online etc? I think that the Plane2 photo is highly significant to the fireorb theory but inspection of the negative is important.
Best Regards.