August 09, 2020, 03:53:57 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: We may never really know what happened  (Read 2246 times)

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May 29, 2020, 08:29:32 PM
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Offline

hoosiergose


It has been over 60 years -
Too much time has passed.
It is interesting that the Soviet Goverment shut down the investigation before it was thoroughly completed.
Also interesting they also declared the Dyatlov pass area strictly off limits for at least 3 years. WHY? Apparently, for what ever reason  this event was being covered up and hushed up by Soviet authorities. I think it has KGB written all over it.
I bet Vladimir Putin has a pretty good idea what happened to those hikers - him being former KGB and all. No doubt Nikita Kruschev knew.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2020, 10:17:25 PM by hoosiergose »

May 29, 2020, 11:30:31 PM
Reply #1
Online

sparrow


Hoosiergose, somewhere on this forum, I read that the pass was not closed for three years.  It would really be nice to know the truth.

May 29, 2020, 11:46:34 PM
Reply #2
Online

sparrow


I know that there are people on this forum that have been on it for awhile.  But, for those who don't know, there is a tremendous amount of information in discussions from two to three years ago. 

May 30, 2020, 03:30:22 PM
Reply #3
Offline

hoosiergose


@ Sparrow- Yes - and I have read many of the post and there are countless Theories on this forum suggesting what caused their demise. No single theory seems to fit.
And..... just because you read something on this Forum does not necessarily mean it is factual or has any substance. My point being- anyone on here can say anything. I am just stating that it has been so long and multiple possible scenarios that I really doubt we will ever really know what actually happened to the Dyatlov nine back in February 1959.
Unless - the Russian Government decides to release everything they know. Very unlikely to happen-
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 11:53:06 PM by hoosiergose »

May 30, 2020, 03:40:54 PM
Reply #4
Offline

hoosiergose


Hoosiergose, somewhere on this forum, I read that the pass was not closed for three years.  It would really be nice to know the truth.

Yes Sparrow- good point- was the Dyatlov Pass area off limits for 3 years? Is this a myth? Can this be substantiated or debunked?

There is one FACT you cannot ignore - people were persuaded by the Soviet Govt. to keep quiet about this event and the Govt, prematurely shut down the investigation- this is supported by statements made by the hikers family members & the Chief Investigator Ivanov later revealed this later in the early nineties when he felt free and safe enough to speak about it. The Soviet Authorities put a lid on this event for a reason. The Dyatlov Pass incident has cover up written all over it. KGB
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 06:22:28 PM by hoosiergose »

May 31, 2020, 10:43:30 AM
Reply #5
Offline

RidgeWatcher


It may have been Donnie Eicher's book or Svetlanan Oss' book where I read the Dyatlov Pass was closed down due to possible radiation endangerment to other ski tourists and hikers for 3 years.

May 31, 2020, 02:30:30 PM
Reply #6
Offline

WAB


It may have been Donnie Eicher's book or Svetlanan Oss' book where I read the Dyatlov Pass was closed down due to possible radiation endangerment to other ski tourists and hikers for 3 years.

Dear RidgeWatcher !

Let's take this information in detail and without any superfluous entities?
The fact that the terrain was "closed" is very big convention. It was common decision of the bureaucrats from the University of UPI and the sports club Sverdlovsk city, that travelers groups did not go to this place. It had nothing to do with the radiation. They (bureaucrats) were afraid that there would be no repetition of these events and no one would die there later. However, this only concerned those who lived in Sverdlovsk. Groups from other cities travelled there in March and summer of that year. It is common practice of officials to forbid anything to happen.
The danger of radiation in this case is greatly overestimated.
Let's look into it in detail, shall we?
The highest radiation measured on their clothes is 9,900 decays per minute in an area of 150 square centimetres. And that's beta radiation, or ordinary electrons, like in electronic lamps. It's weak penetration power.
If you count this in Becquerel (modern units of radioactivity), you get 165 Bq. Approximately the same amount of natural radioactivity gives 2 kilogramm /KG/- (4.5 lb) bananas or 1.5 kG (3.3 lb) potatoes (but these are larger substances). This is only slightly (2 or 3 times) above the natural radioactivity of the earth. In order get health damage over long period of time, it is necessary exceed this background by 1000 or several thousand times.
For example, with such exposure (at 165 Bq, which is 3 times more than the natural background) one person weighing 70 kg (155 lb) will percevoir lethal dose (in 50% of cases) for time equal to 750 million hours or 85 thousand 616 years.
This mutely exceeds the average age of homme.  grin1
The origin of this radiation can be double and equal in probability:
1. Or it was brought by Georgy Krivonishchenko on his clothes, as he worked in the territory where 2 years before there had been accident connected with radiation (factory "Mayak" or "Chelyabinsk-40" in 1957).
2. Or it is radioactive fallout from the Novaya Zemlya nuclear test site, where lot nuclear explosions took place in 1958. From the pass to this site is relatively close - 1400 km (870 mi). Radioactive dust was carried by the wind and settled on the surface of the ground on large area. Then water (rain or snow that melted) carried it to the brook in this place. Then the stream water would wash this (weak) radioactive dirt to the clothes people in the stream.
Here are all the "terrible tales" about radiation and the atomic cause of death of Dyatlov's group.

Many authors, especially if they write it from other people's words and are not experts in the field themselves, write not very correct text. Actually, with Donnie Eichar we discussed with Yuri Yudin many details of his book. If my sclerosis doesn't change me  bang1, he wrote there about what I wrote few lines above.
Svetlana Osadchuk (or Oss, as her abbreviated name is in English) is ordinary journalist, with the peculiarity that she writes in English. She has very little knowledge information and lot factual errors in his text and ideas.

May 31, 2020, 11:26:56 PM
Reply #7
Online

sparrow


Would this also take into account the rate of decay of the radioactivity on the clothes  over (about) the two weeks some think they would have lain in the water? bow7
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 11:33:30 PM by sparrow »

June 01, 2020, 07:19:43 AM
Reply #8
Offline

WAB


Would this also take into account the rate of decay of the radioactivity on the clothes  over (about) the two weeks some think they would have lain in the water? bow7

It is not the decay rate that must be taken into account, but the current radioactivity level. The speed and prediction will be determined by mathematical methods. The point at which the measurements were made is recorded in the examination, and the changes will be determined by the physics process.
The trends of such changes are understandable, but uncertain because one needs know exactly how they lay, how the water flows went, and the intensity of the flows, where the pieces of tissue that were investigated were located.
In general, this dirt could both be washed more and more, and washed away. It could only be washed away when it was superimposed before it entered the stream. Otherwise, after certain amount washed up dirt, there must be stabilization its quantity. This will work if the body and the clothes are not turned in the stream.
But these are all very small changes that have little effect on the maximum measured levels.
Even these (maximum data measured) levels are very small compared to the natural background.
In our case, it is impossible obtain changes several times, and even more so in tens and hundreds of times.
From this, we can conclude that radioactivity has not affected the course and results of the incident in any way. This is a concomitant factor that must be understood and taken into account only in the way that it is available.

June 02, 2020, 12:41:02 AM
Reply #9
Offline

hoosiergose


Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.
I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

June 02, 2020, 01:07:36 AM
Reply #10
Online

sparrow


WAB, I would also.  I get the impression you work a lot with physics.  I personally would love to see the different sciences come together to (maybe) solve this mystery

June 02, 2020, 09:17:23 AM
Reply #11
Offline

MDGross


The crucial question is, of course, why did the hikers exit their tent the way they did. How many things had to occur to lead to this final, fatal result? For example, one of the simplest explanations would be that the unity of the group unraveled. Maybe Zolotaryov and the others found with him in the ravine had become critical of Dyatlov. A serious fight ensued and one group, out of fear, fled the tent followed by the other group. Only one thing needs to be proven: did the nine split into two hostile groups?
On the other end of the spectrum is, for example, involvement by the KGB. What was the motive? Why confront the hikers on that particular night? Why make them march down to the trees below? These and other questions would need believable answers. So the complexity of finding a final answer increases greatly. The more questions that need to be answered, the less likely that the mystery will ever be solved.
There are lots of theories, 76 I think, ranging from the simple to the complex, but no indisputable proof. Will we really know what happened? In my opinion the answer is no, unless by some miracle, "official" documentation is found.
That's not to say that there aren't plausible theories. But they remain theories, and the "truth" remains as elusive as ever.

June 02, 2020, 12:21:31 PM
Reply #12
Offline

WAB


Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.

It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.

June 02, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
Reply #13
Offline

WAB


WAB, I would also.  I get the impression you work a lot with physics.  I personally would love to see the different sciences come together to (maybe) solve this mystery

You're absolutely right. I think the same thing. As far as my knowledge allows me, I'm trying to do it. I want turn your (and all other forum readers) that this is the only way come to the truth. In addition, I would like say that there is very bad tendency - constant and growing use of inaccurate and false information. If we do not check the information for authenticity, we can come to dead end. What happens all the time on different small and large issues.
Every event has events logic and its actual conditions. If both of these conditions are neglected, nothing can be achieved.
I call on everyone who has real interest in solving this case make full these rules use. This is nothing more than " Ockham's razor. "
However, there are so many different fantasists who achieve any goal, not the truthful disclosure of this mystery. They seem to want to write a script for Hollywood in the style of " Horror Movies " and self-affirm, and the truth they are not interested at all. In life, there is simpler result than fiction, but come to understanding what happened you need apply lot knowledge, time and labor. And without any extra fantasies, which only worsen understanding.
So I think that the most important thing is have reliable source information. It is enough in different sources, you just need be able intelligently analyze it.

June 02, 2020, 06:04:54 PM
Reply #14
Online

sparrow


WAB, do you think the English translations of the Russian records, reports, etc. are correct?  Do you think there is one translation that is more accurate than another?

June 02, 2020, 09:48:43 PM
Reply #15
Offline

hoosiergose


The crucial question is, of course, why did the hikers exit their tent the way they did. How many things had to occur to lead to this final, fatal result? For example, one of the simplest explanations would be that the unity of the group unraveled. Maybe Zolotaryov and the others found with him in the ravine had become critical of Dyatlov. A serious fight ensued and one group, out of fear, fled the tent followed by the other group. Only one thing needs to be proven: did the nine split into two hostile groups?
On the other end of the spectrum is, for example, involvement by the KGB. What was the motive? Why confront the hikers on that particular night? Why make them march down to the trees below? These and other questions would need believable answers. So the complexity of finding a final answer increases greatly. The more questions that need to be answered, the less likely that the mystery will ever be solved.
There are lots of theories, 76 I think, ranging from the simple to the complex, but no indisputable proof. Will we really know what happened? In my opinion the answer is no, unless by some miracle, "official" documentation is found.
That's not to say that there aren't plausible theories. But they remain theories, and the "truth" remains as elusive as ever.

Thanks MD Gross - well said

June 03, 2020, 09:17:36 AM
Reply #16
Offline

WAB


WAB, do you think the English translations of the Russian records, reports, etc. are correct?  Do you think there is one translation that is more accurate than another?

Unfortunately, I find there are many translation errors and terms misinterpretations due to differences in understanding between countries. These are professional features of such activities.
I don't know about all translations, so I can't say exactly where there are more correct ones.  I've tried to comment on the differences in some files, but it's such big job that I don't even know if I should do it systematically.
Of course, if I come across such fragments during the discussion, I will give comment, but I am not able to do that for all fragments.
The problem is that even the same words can be understood differently both in different languages and in different professional communities. For example, in the legal community. Especially if the principles of the law are different in different countries. There are also peculiarities national psychology and culture.

June 03, 2020, 02:52:22 PM
Reply #17
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It has been over 60 years -
Too much time has passed.
It is interesting that the Soviet Goverment shut down the investigation before it was thoroughly completed.
Also interesting they also declared the Dyatlov pass area strictly off limits for at least 3 years. WHY? Apparently, for what ever reason  this event was being covered up and hushed up by Soviet authorities. I think it has KGB written all over it.
I bet Vladimir Putin has a pretty good idea what happened to those hikers - him being former KGB and all. No doubt Nikita Kruschev knew.

Archaeologists are finding things from thousands of years ago.   60 years is nothing in the history of things.  Because of this Forum and the Web Site created by Teddy more and more information slowly but surely comes to light.
DB

June 03, 2020, 09:57:10 PM
Reply #18
Offline

hoosiergose


@ Sarapuk -I serious doubt it - unless there is a document hidden away by the Soviet Govt that suddenly comes to light - this enigma will probably never be solved. There are well over 70 so called theories and counting. And honestly how can we expect archeology solve this mystery? Hmmmm?
If they do a dig there, what could they really possibly hope to find? What ? A note saying - Help- the mansi got us - Please give me a break Sir. SMH
I enjoy reading the comments on this blog and find some of the comments very amusing  - but I honestly see mostly bizarre & confounding statements & misleading conjecture and very little in the way of a viable plausible solution to what really happened to the Dyatlov Hikers.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 11:57:11 PM by hoosiergose »

June 03, 2020, 10:16:03 PM
Reply #19
Offline

hoosiergose


Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.
Sir - your response was a long winded, rambling dissertation-that said nothing-
I merely asked you one direct simple question-
What do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers? You can go back & re-read your response & see the answer I got from you.
A long rambling rant of little value-
My question went totally un-answered
I won’t ask you anymore questions Sir


It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.

June 03, 2020, 10:24:49 PM
Reply #20
Offline

hoosiergose


Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.


It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.

@ WAB- Sir- I asked you a very direct simple question- what do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2020, 11:51:56 PM by hoosiergose »

June 03, 2020, 10:35:20 PM
Reply #21
Offline

Monika


Dear Wab
You seem to be very articulate and very knowledgeable concerning this incident.

It's just coincidence. I have had information about this case for long time (since 1978). Since then, it has been constantly coming back through the appeals of various friends and acquaintances of mine. So I want tell them something honestly and without any fantasy about the real conditions of the incident.
There is lot of talk about the fact that this case is constantly discussed at different levels for 60 years. That's not true. In Sverdlovsk (now Ekaterinburg) friends of Dyatlov and his friends in the group knew and talked about it for 60 years. It is true. But it was only inside the travelers club of their university. In other parts of the USSR there was practically no information about this case. More precisely, it was only very limited, very rare and only for some random reason.
I learned about it only because I, as a volunteer, was chosen as a vice-president of the Federation of Travelers among Students of the USSR (Central Council of the Sports Society "Burevestnik" in the USSR) in 1978. Since my comrade Heinrich Stukov was then the head of the Travel technique Security Department of the Main Travel Council from the USSR Trade Unions, I went to him and wrote down in his notebook all the accidents of the students that were known at that time. There were lists, which in the criminal case were numbered from 36 to 39 ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-36-39?rbid=17743 ).
That's what I had as background information. It was clear to me that nothing specific was written there. There were separate ideas and assumptions, but all of them were nothing more than private opinions of those involved in the search, but nothing more than opinions. Then there was no information or ideas about what I might not have. Suddenly, there was idea in 1984. We had seminar about aeronautical and space ergonomics at our university and in our department (at that time I was partly engaged enseigner this science, together with applied biomechanics and the development of flight crew rescue equipment at our university), which was attended by Professor Pinkus Schlaen from the Centre for the développement Ergonomics section for Aviation. He was major scientist in this science. In private conversation, I told to him (and Associate Professor /lecturer in the American system/ our department Alexander Donov) this story and all the problems in understanding the course of events in the Dyatlov group. He said that all this is very similar to the infrasound effect to the human body and subsequent events. Since then, I have started study it purposefully.
Among the travelers to the USSR until 1999 (probably except for Sverdlovsk itself) there was no talk about it (the very case with the Dyatlov group). In the press and TV, after 1990 something appeared but only in some regions and it was not in the discussions among large number of travelers and rescuers.
The Sverdlovsk regional press and one newspaper in the Pavlograd region (this was written by investigator, and then by the retired Prosecutor of this region, who at the time was attorney Lev Ivanov - yes, the one who handled the case of the Dyatlov group) in 1990, there were separate publications. The most competent and reliable articles were written by journalist Rimma Pechurkina. Unfortunately, they drowned in mass of others who "chewed" various speculative details.
When in 1999, the local magazine of the Sverdlovsk region published hotel excerpts from Anna Matveeva's women's story "The Dyatlov Pass" and the local press began promote the topic and in what preceded the emergence of the Internet - the electronic network FIDO - the first discussions among travelers appeared. I pay attention to this, because these are people who have the necessary training to intelligently and with knowledge of the details of the case to discuss what happened. This is very different from the idle conversations of ordinary people, even if they are very angry at me for this remark. This is the main thing - it is necessary have real and practical knowledge base, so that it would be possible judge what any person talks about. This is one of the signs of reliability of the information offered.
Then, in 2005 and (mainly) in 2006, there was a broad discussion of this topic on the Internet. Originally it was on the site of TAU (Ural TV Agency), the general producer of which was Anna Matveeva's mari Innokenty Sheremet. Everything that I now say at this forum, I began say back there. During this time there have been practically no changes in my main statements. The only thing that has increased is that I have made 5 winter and 2 summer (the very first and basic for this study) expeditions to the pass. And the fact that before that I had already had experience in winter and summer travel (total of more than 100), since 1959, and more than 20 search and rescue expeditions, similar to that of the Dyatlov group, from 1971 to 1991. But I am not professional rescuer, I deal with other problems in my main field. They are related to rocket and aviation equipment and concern rescue (partly and various other components of items) sections of these branches, for example, issues of life support of aircraft crews, including on the ground, after the accident. This, too, makes it possible judge what happened because there is the necessary knowledge about the applied problems of the components of these sciences.

I honestly would like to hear your thoughts or ideas on what you honestly think happened to the Dyatlov hikers back in February 1959?

In 2010 and 2012 the American writer Donnie Eichar came to Ekaterinburg collect materials for his book ( https://www.amazon.com/Dead-Mountain-Untold-Dyatlov-Incident/dp/1452140030 ). Yuri Kuntsevich, the president of the "Dyatlov Group Memorial Foundation", recommended me as the main consultant and guide in his journey to the mountain pass, because he was exploring the same hypothesis that I followed and at that time there was no one who knew better than me the details of the place and the events taking place there directly.
So you can read the main parts of this hypothesis yourself. However, I couldn't explain everything to him in more detail (or he didn't understand because he's film producer and writer, not  physicist), so some details were left out of his description in the book.
I have already written about the difference in description by Donnie Eichar and what is observed on the spot and is the defining detail of this phenomenon. This is also the case in this forum.
There is some feature of discussing this hypothesis - I do not discuss it with those who do not have sufficient knowledge of the physics of this very phenomenon. Because almost everybody speaks with words from the Internet, the meaning of which they do not understand, or with their inventions, which do not correspond to this phenomenon in any way. There are very few people all over the world doing this - literally few dozen people, so there is very little scientific information. What journalists are writing is as relevant to the description of this phenomenon as the famous puff cake for the Waterloo Battle.  grin1 The letters there are the same, and they make no sense.
So far, all real discussions have been with only 2 or 3 specialists with the qualification of Doctor of Science and Professor at leading university.

Hello, Mr. WAB

I am willing to believe that infrasound has developed in the place and that it may have influenced the behavior of tourists. They cut the tent in panic and left it. However, why did they go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way. Footprints in the snow show that when they descended, they stood on their feet, no trace of the outline of the body or hand, etc., but only their footprint appeared in the snow. This means that in a dark, extreme cold and high snow, they went upright. If they were hit / affected by infrasound, they would not be able to behave so “cold-blooded” and logical. Even when a person is in good mental condition, in the wind and in high snow it is strenuous to maintain balance and not to stumble. Their cold-bloodedness also manifested itself in the forest, where they were able to build a campfire and a den.

This theory would apply only if the infrasound maintained only at the tents and in close proximity. But the footprints of the tourists appear relative near the tent. The infrasound would have to act on a very small discrete area, and the tent would be on directly inside. That would have to be an incredible coincidence.

But yes, I am also a supporter of the theory that the whole event was triggered by some natural phenomenon, perhaps very rare and not yet explored by humans.

What I miss in Eichar's book are serious surveys from doctors about the effect of infrasound on people, Eichar did not take their opinions into account at all, he did not address any doctor. He focused only on the physical side of things. For this reason, his book, and therefore his theory, is only speculation, just like other theories.

June 05, 2020, 03:56:16 PM
Reply #22
Offline

WAB



@ WAB- Sir- I asked you a very direct simple question- what do you think happened to the Dyatlov Hikers?

The question is not as simple as you think, if you think so. It's only about psychology that you need to be well versed, and there's also physics, physiology, meteorology, local conditions and such traveler`s training.
Very briefly, it will be as follows: they were affected by rare natural phenomenon, which resulted in altered state of consciousness (ASC), because of which they cut their tent and ran away from it. Then (after a while) they under the action of relaxation (switching of consciousness) as result of extreme environmental conditions began return to normal perception and how they could fight for their own survival. Their strength and means (clothes, equipment) were limited, so they died from hypothermia at different times and in different places. In some cases, the death was associated with injuries of varying severity. The cold accelerated and complicated the death. The main cause of their deaths was cold.
The most important thing understand at the first stage of this study is that their accident has two different components:
1. Escape from the tent (this is the first factor),
2. All the following that was determined by the conditions of the natural environment.
After #1, it was possible to do nothing, nature finished everything else on its own.
So #1 is the point of no return to life in their conditions.
Everybody, who asks a question: why they didn't survive, should think on question: how much time can live man in insufficient clothes, if his heat consumption in environment (in those conditions) is 300...500 Watt, and metabolic heat (heat emission as result of normal processes in organism) at rest is 50...80 Watt. Accompanying factors I will not consider any more. They would have had enough of this alone.

June 05, 2020, 04:15:40 PM
Reply #23
Offline

WAB


Hello, Mr.

Dear Monika !
Perhaps you are trying to confirm my fears that you should not discuss complex and little studied phenomena with people who have very little information about it.
However, I will try explain something to you personally by at least pointing out where you are wrong even in the assumptions and basic physical properties of infrasound (IS).
I have already written about it on this forum. Alas, I have repeat myself, but I understand that it's difficult look through everything because there's lot of written information here.
I'm not sure I'll do the same thing again for someone else unless they have the knowledge of the one I mentioned in my previous article and the phrase I left above.
At first, I wanted talk about the method of building our conversation. You have everything built like the majority: you've all fallen into one pile, you've mixed up facts and concepts and you don't understand small transitions (like halftones in photo).
I'll try to explain it to you on the model. When you make soup, it's not like you put uncut (or washed) food in pot, or try to eat it raw... just like here: You should arrange everything on the shelves (separate from the peel, cut into pieces, put each vegetable in its own time and in certain sequence) without rushing to think and gain knowledge as it is already customary in science (boil, but not digest...), add spices (practical knowledge) and get ready (and delicious) product.
But let us consider everything in order of your questions.

I am willing to believe that infrasound has developed in the place and that it may have influenced the behavior of tourists. They cut the tent in panic and left it. However, why did they go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way.

You're confusing cause and effect. They only went there because they had nowhere else to go and had the strength and ability reach the places where they were found.
Speaking of which, they "go 1.5 km on their foot to the forest in an organized and "quiet" way." (c) no such information. There is only talk of it and persistent myths. The error of this you will read below. Unfortunately, I do not fully understand your term "quietly", but I will leave it alone for now.

Footprints in the snow show that when they descended, they stood on their feet, no trace of the outline of the body or hand, etc., but only their footprint appeared in the snow. This means that in a dark, extreme cold and high snow, they went upright.

“upright" - what does that apply to? Is it straight line from tent to cedar? No, it's a very mistaken opinion.
1. It's impossible walk in straight line there. If you don't believe me, come to the slope in winter and try it. Anyway, it didn't work out for anyone who was there.
2. They were found in different places not on one straight line, the angle of scattering from the straight line is very large there. Someone has long said about the "straight line", not thinking very well about what it is, and everyone has been repeating it ever since, without thinking or checking it on the spot and on the points. I checked, and it didn't work out...
3. I've talked about footprints, too, and I've talked about them repeatedly. It's such meme, too. The traces were found at relatively long length (I will not go through who and how I said), but the maximum length that could be, it is 380 ... 400 meters. Further on, the zone of snow deposition began (a difference after the third stone ridge) and there the traces could not be found. Next, the tracks had no continuous path, where there were all traces, and even there were relatively long areas where there were no traces. All the photos you saw were 10...20 m and no more. Even if there were 10 of them, it wasn't continuous chain. And even they weren't on the same line. Look at the picture that Mikhail Sharavin drew when he was interviewed about it. There are traces that go at an angle of about 30 degrees towards the cedar. Do you know what the deviation would be if "they were walking in straight line"? Approximately 700 meters. with only two bodies found near the cedar. The others were found elsewhere, on the other side of the straight "tent - cedar".  And you say "organized"...
4. The footprints didn't appear right behind the tent. The minimum distance where they could appear was -25...30 meters. Because right behind the tent there is inflection of the slope and there is much more snow than nearby, so they could not form there - the snow must be well squeezed, and it depends on the thickness. If you don't press the trail on the surface fix snow, the trail won't stay there for long time, even under the conditions that others will stay on better surface.
5. The total number of traces they have calculated only "integrally" - having traced the whole chain (in different places) throughout where the traces were at all. This is possible if there is experienced tracker. Alexey Chernyshov could have done it, he had lot of experience in it.
Do you have enough objections and justification for this in this question?

If they were hit / affected by infrasound, they would not be able to behave so “cold-blooded” and logical. Even when a person is in good mental condition, in the wind and in high snow it is strenuous to maintain balance and not to stumble.

What do you mean by "acting so 'cold-blooded' and logical" (c) ? Who could have determined that? I don't know someone who was there, saw everything and then (survived) told it all? If there is no such person, then do not use other people's fictions...
And about the balance and tripping, you're obviously overreacting with these assumptions. Zina has large abrasion on the lower back, Nicholas Thibault habened through wound of the skull and could not go on his own, almost everyone has skin abrasions and damage to clothing, which can be obtained only on the stones of the third stone ridge or slightly higher. The tailwind and darkness contributed greatly to this. There were only very small number of places where you could get abrasions, but not as much injury as Thibault. Maybe you know place like this and you can tell me where it is.

Their cold-bloodedness also manifested itself in the forest, where they were able to build a campfire and a den.
This theory would apply only if the infrasound maintained only at the tents and in close proximity.

You have very vague ideas about infrasound and its properties. Why do you think it was only in the tent? It's very large area where the sound wave exists and can't "break" and fade from distance. For example, it can be changed by reflection or diffraction from other small objects that it envelops. I do not know where you get these properties from, but they have nothing to do with the real IS properties. At sea, this kind of sound wave extends over many hundreds of kilometres. But to do that, you have have many almost identical sea wave troughs. Here it does not exist, but the wave propagation in forestless zone (or above the trees) may well be many tens of kilometers with gradual and small fading.

But the footprints of the tourists appear relative near the tent.

No, it's not, but I wrote little higher about it.

The infrasound would have to act on a very small discrete area, and the tent would be on directly inside. That would have to be an incredible coincidence.

Once again, this is false idea of such waves. The attenuation depends on the length of the sound wave, according to the principle: the longer the wave, the smaller the attenuation value. I do not understand, where did you get the information about IS properties?

But yes, I am also a supporter of the theory that the whole event was triggered by some natural phenomenon, perhaps very rare and not yet explored by humans.

Your position is clear and I can support it, but, unfortunately, your knowledge level about IS properties and it characteristics is very low. Perhaps this is the reason why you do not want accept this phenomenon as the cause of events.
Would you like to cite something as an alternative to this phenomenon?

What I miss in Eichar's book are serious surveys from doctors about the effect of infrasound on people, Eichar did not take their opinions into account at all, he did not address any doctor. He focused only on the physical side of things. For this reason, his book, and therefore his theory, is only speculation, just like other theories.

You want lot of things... He almost accidentally found Dr. Bernard at NOAA. I thought that when he was coming back to America from Ekaterinburg, and was in Moscow only one day, I would be able introduce him and get good consultation from Professor Valery Gordienko from Moscow State Lomonosov University. But Gordienko was not in Moscow in that day and he could not get it.
So let's count how many people in the world deal with such acoustic problems. The very physics of this phenomenon is engaged in: 2 people in Russia, 3 people in the USA (one in them is from Russia), let's say 10 more countries (this is when they were engaged in development of non-lethal weapon) + 15...20. Practically that's all. I take only the right level of researchers and those who are engaged in aeronautics of ultra-low frequencies. There are many others who deal with ultra-low-frequency waves in the sea (here the needs are much greater from military sailors), but these are specialists of different profile. Around as if someone were doing conductors, against semiconductors or dielectrics. Do you understand my comparison?
Specialists of different profile are not suitable for us.
We got about 30 people in total. All over the world!
There are even fewer physicians and physiologists. There's no systematic or in-depth research. Do you know why? Because you won't get a commercial product as result.
I don't take those who write safety instructions that say IS exists, it can be dangerous and you should avoid frequencies below 16 Hertz. This is more about vibrations, but they know something about aeroacoustics, if anything, it's just the name itself.
That's why he didn't give these opinions. That he just hasn't found someone who knows something about it well.
By the way, I was deeply impressed by one objection to me after the publication of article in the newspaper "Komsomolskaya Pravda" from medical doctor with scientific degree. The article with my interview was organized by the newspaper itself. He said that all this is possible, but it's not infrasound, but change in pressure. "Wonderful" medical doctors know physics... :))) A sound wave is what? Is it not pressure change (fluctuation)? They teach it even in usual school.

Now I say resume: in order speak on this subject you need know the subject of the conversation well. It is not your fault, it is the trouble of everyone who thinks that simple methods can solve complex and poorly studied issues.
Much, on which you have built questions, arose only on the basis of outside conversations, which does not stand even small check on the validity. That is, again, there is construction of conclusions on the unreliable information. It turns out that you can not only get reliable conclusions, but also understand what should follow.

June 05, 2020, 11:13:18 PM
Reply #24
Offline

hoosiergose


WAGS - can you explain what you think caused the extremely serious injuries to some of the hikers? Especially the crushing flail chest (rib cage) injuries suffered by Seymon & Lyudmilla? Those injuries cannot be attributable to infrasound.

June 06, 2020, 12:49:11 AM
Reply #25
Online

sparrow


Thanks a lot for your explanation WAB. good-posting   I do so love math and science.  Even with the information we have, I am sure that there are theories that we can (and maybe should) put to bed.  The human imagination can give us an infinite number of theories and I would hope that that would not be our goal. cry2  Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2020, 01:16:56 AM by sparrow »

June 06, 2020, 01:44:50 AM
Reply #26
Offline

hoosiergose


Sparrow- unfortunately, WAG’S long winded explanation is seriously flawed. Infrasound does NOT explain the skull fractures & crushed ribs inflicted upon several of the hikers. The facts simply do not support that theory.
I have noticed that WAGS likes to dispel a lot of verbiage without really saying anything. We must look elsewhere for the reason the hikers died. The facts do not really support the infrasound hypothesis. IMHO - whatever caused the hikers to flee the tent in the first place also caused those severe injuries inflicted upon the hikers. Simple basic logic should be your guide on solving any mystery. I am a licensed Private Investigator- and I earn my living solving things. That’s what I do. It all comes down to the - Who, What, How, Why, Where and When. You take all the facts and they will lead you to the truth.

June 06, 2020, 03:24:53 AM
Reply #27
Online

sparrow


Hi hoosiergose.  I definitely agree with you on "all the facts".  My husband was a police officer and he would often go on about people making assumptions in miscellaneous cases.  You collect all the facts and you make no assumptions (no matter how much you may want to).  I think that if you had to go to court with any of these theories now, you would probably get laughed out of court. lol2

June 06, 2020, 05:29:29 AM
Reply #28
Offline

WAB


Sparrow- unfortunately, WAG’S long winded explanation is seriously flawed. Infrasound does NOT explain the skull fractures & crushed ribs inflicted upon several of the hikers.

You constantly make the same mistakes, which are made by almost everyone who tries judge this case without having enough knowledge - constantly throw everything into one pile and then you are unable understand it yourself. I don't think you can't read, but the fact that you don't understand what you've been told is sad fact.
I wrote in last message especially for you:


The most important thing understand at the first stage of this study is that their accident has two different components:
1. Escape from the tent (this is the first factor),
2. All the following that was determined by the conditions of the natural environment.
After #1, it was possible to do nothing, nature finished everything else on its own.
So #1 is the point of no return to life in their conditions.


If you don't understand that, the best thing to do is ask around. You're throwing meaningless accusations instead of raising your literacy and awareness.
The injuries are the result of other processes that took place after they fled the tent and infrasound has nothing to do with it. From what you write, you either cannot understand such simple things or you do not want to do them on purpose.
I have a big article about all the injuries, their causes, and where they occurred. This article is written in Russian. Here's her address: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Ey2F7ROB6ZXNJkp49tKPJE24iPP0nKRG/view?usp=sharing  . If you really want understand what happened (and not shout something against what they say), pls translate it and begreifen it out. Nobody has give you everything ready if you have interest in something.

The facts simply do not support that theory.

Please show which "Facts just don't support this theory"?

I have noticed that WAGS likes to dispel a lot of verbiage without really saying anything. We must look elsewhere for the reason the hikers died.

I get the impression that you stubbornly do not want to understand something, but want to push your understanding at any cost, or unreasonably discredit what others offer. It is especially important that you are against what is based on a large and thorough study of the case. Although your argument against it has almost no basis. It is based on ignorance of the basis of events and other details.

The facts do not really support the infrasound hypothesis.

Please show which "Facts do not support the infrasound hypothesis." ?
If you are unable to do so, then your words are the empty sound.

IMHO - whatever caused the hikers to flee the tent in the first place also caused those severe injuries inflicted upon the hikers.

Naturally. Only it is necessary understand that running away from tent is the cause of the beginning of events, and getting injured is its continuation and is the result of the natural environment dangers, which were higher than human capabilities.

Simple basic logic should be your guide on solving any mystery.

So, be guided by facts, knowledge of specific local conditions, and logic, not fictional and ridiculous considerations. Here are the questions that should dot ander “i”:
1. What do you know about the conditions in that place (please see details)?  The weather, the terrain, the availability of dangerous places, the possibility of movement, etc.
2. What do you know about the psychophysiology of people's behavior in the frost and in the cold.
3. Please let me know what you call logic and how you intend to use it in this case.

I am a licensed Private Investigator- and I earn my living solving things.

So you're very bad detective if you're based on your own fictions and gossip, not on knowing the reality, given that you haven't seen what you're talking about at all and don't even know the basics of what you're investigating.  The detailed answers (if any) to the questions above are the criteria for what I am telling you.

That’s what I do. It all comes down to the - Who, What, How, Why, Where and When. You take all the facts and they will lead you to the truth.

If you say the right words, it turns out that after that you do the exact opposite.
All the facts are set out in the criminal case (there will be no others and can't be others in principle), and specification on the injuries (you consider them the main reason of what happened?) is given in my article. It is very easy check it - you need go to the place yourself and check everything. Otherwise, you will discuss and judge not the facts, but your own speculations. Which is what we see in your messages.

**************************

PS. I am very interested find out, it is all private detectives have this method of investigation: first they decide what is right and what does not exist (even if it exists), and then the criminal and the charges are selected for it. They start looking in the wrong place - it's dark (lack of knowledge), and, conventionally speaking - "under street lamp - it's lighter (they all understand)”©.
Or it is only for some detectives?

June 06, 2020, 05:32:14 AM
Reply #29
Offline

WAB


Thanks a lot for your explanation WAB. good-posting   I do so love math and science.  Even with the information we have, I am sure that there are theories that we can (and maybe should) put to bed.  The human imagination can give us an infinite number of theories and I would hope that that would not be our goal. cry2  Just my opinion.

I agree with your opinion with great pleasure... thumb1
Take look at the article that I already gave you here. It says all about injuries and "with math..."  grin1
All of this has been investigated directly on site under different conditions.