September 24, 2020, 02:58:33 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Back to the Rav4  (Read 4179 times)

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July 20, 2020, 02:09:21 PM
Reply #120
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.
DB

July 20, 2020, 04:31:42 PM
Reply #121
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Frankie


Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.


Well she was missing soft tissue above her eyes, revealing bone, and also around her lips. This is indicative of decomp.

July 21, 2020, 02:45:17 AM
Reply #122
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Morski


Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.

Pushing the theory? Decomposition or scavengers (or probably both) is the most realistic and natural explanation for a months old corpse in the wilderness, so if they are "pushing" anything, that is the common sense.

Although it is hard to establish feeding patterns, it is known that most scavengers (especially birds or small rodents) will go for the soft tissue, face, lips, nose, tongue and eyes first, not just any part, especially if it is hard get access to, or presumably solid frozen. On the other hand, low temps do slow down decomposition and bacterial activity, but cannot stop the overall process, which is obvious from the photos and the coroner report, no matter how clumsy it is.
By the way, interesting thing for the “color-of-the-skin” fans - cold temperatures can prevent decomposition, except for the change in coloration of the skin from its natural color to orange or black (Byers, 2017; Dix & Graham, 2000; Mann et al. 1990; Vass, 2001). (https://ir.library.illinoisstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2059&context=etd)

Plus, Lyuda was not just in the stream, she was exposed to running water pouring through her open mouth for who knows how long. Nothing so extraordinary about the tongue and eyes, unless you want it to be like that. 
In the end, the only thing that I find odd, is that Lyuda was known for her harsh talking sometimes, her “edgy” tongue… In a twisted way, it is ironical, that she ends up without her tongue eventually.

Interesting readings:
1.   Byers, S. N. (2017). Introduction of forensic anthropology. New York: Taylor & Francis;
2.   Dix, J., & Graham M. (2000). Time of death, decomposition, and identification: An atlas. New York: CRC Press;
3.   Mann, R. W., Bass, W. M., & Meadows, L. (1990). Time since death and decomposition of the human body: variables and observations in case and experimental field studies. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 35, 103-111., 1990;
4.   Vass, A. A. (2001). Beyond the grave-understanding human decomposition. Microbial Today, 28, 190-193.

July 21, 2020, 04:27:16 AM
Reply #123
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WAB


Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.

Pushing the theory? Decomposition or scavengers (or probably both) is the most realistic and natural explanation for a months old corpse in the wilderness, so if they are "pushing" anything, that is the common sense.

Although it is hard to establish feeding patterns, it is known that most scavengers (especially birds or small rodents) will go for the soft tissue, face, lips, nose, tongue and eyes first, not just any part, especially if it is hard get access to, or presumably solid frozen. On the other hand, low temps do slow down decomposition and bacterial activity, but cannot stop the overall process, which is obvious from the photos and the coroner report, no matter how clumsy it is.
By the way, interesting thing for the “color-of-the-skin” fans - cold temperatures can prevent decomposition, except for the change in coloration of the skin from its natural color to orange or black (Byers, 2017; Dix & Graham, 2000; Mann et al. 1990; Vass, 2001). (https://ir.library.illinoisstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2059&context=etd)

Plus, Lyuda was not just in the stream, she was exposed to running water pouring through her open mouth for who knows how long. Nothing so extraordinary about the tongue and eyes, unless you want it to be like that. 
In the end, the only thing that I find odd, is that Lyuda was known for her harsh talking sometimes, her “edgy” tongue… In a twisted way, it is ironical, that she ends up without her tongue eventually.

Dear Morski !
One. I want congratulate you on your jubilee (100th) post on this forum!  grin1
The second. You are absolutely right in all the details that are set out here, only I would like to clarify a bit. The rodents probably had nothing to do with this. They leave traces of teeth that are not marked in the protocol. It could also be the result of decomposition of biological tissue, so I can't insist on it. However, I have very bad idea of how they can live and eat in very narrow channels in the snow that the water has drilled. By the way, the water should have been running tightly through them when the snow melted heavily.
Third. I was talking about microfauna - very small (visible only through microscope) "animals". They are abundant in melting water because there is lot oxygen. Much more than in normal water. Oxygen is additional chemical factor that affects decomposition.
The fourth. Thank you very much for your message, it's (as usual) literate, balanced and concrete. Unfortunately, there are very few people here who can write like this.

Interesting readings:
1.   Byers, S. N. (2017). Introduction of forensic anthropology. New York: Taylor & Francis;
2.   Dix, J., & Graham M. (2000). Time of death, decomposition, and identification: An atlas. New York: CRC Press;
3.   Mann, R. W., Bass, W. M., & Meadows, L. (1990). Time since death and decomposition of the human body: variables and observations in case and experimental field studies. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 35, 103-111., 1990;
4.   Vass, A. A. (2001). Beyond the grave-understanding human decomposition. Microbial Today, 28, 190-193.

That's interesting. We'll have look at it in more detail. Too bad I have very little time for the Dyatlov incident...

July 21, 2020, 02:11:34 PM
Reply #124
Offline

Morski


Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.

Pushing the theory? Decomposition or scavengers (or probably both) is the most realistic and natural explanation for a months old corpse in the wilderness, so if they are "pushing" anything, that is the common sense.

Although it is hard to establish feeding patterns, it is known that most scavengers (especially birds or small rodents) will go for the soft tissue, face, lips, nose, tongue and eyes first, not just any part, especially if it is hard get access to, or presumably solid frozen. On the other hand, low temps do slow down decomposition and bacterial activity, but cannot stop the overall process, which is obvious from the photos and the coroner report, no matter how clumsy it is.
By the way, interesting thing for the “color-of-the-skin” fans - cold temperatures can prevent decomposition, except for the change in coloration of the skin from its natural color to orange or black (Byers, 2017; Dix & Graham, 2000; Mann et al. 1990; Vass, 2001). (https://ir.library.illinoisstate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2059&context=etd)

Plus, Lyuda was not just in the stream, she was exposed to running water pouring through her open mouth for who knows how long. Nothing so extraordinary about the tongue and eyes, unless you want it to be like that. 
In the end, the only thing that I find odd, is that Lyuda was known for her harsh talking sometimes, her “edgy” tongue… In a twisted way, it is ironical, that she ends up without her tongue eventually.

Dear Morski !
One. I want congratulate you on your jubilee (100th) post on this forum!  grin1
The second. You are absolutely right in all the details that are set out here, only I would like to clarify a bit. The rodents probably had nothing to do with this. They leave traces of teeth that are not marked in the protocol. It could also be the result of decomposition of biological tissue, so I can't insist on it. However, I have very bad idea of how they can live and eat in very narrow channels in the snow that the water has drilled. By the way, the water should have been running tightly through them when the snow melted heavily.
Third. I was talking about microfauna - very small (visible only through microscope) "animals". They are abundant in melting water because there is lot oxygen. Much more than in normal water. Oxygen is additional chemical factor that affects decomposition.
The fourth. Thank you very much for your message, it's (as usual) literate, balanced and concrete. Unfortunately, there are very few people here who can write like this.

Interesting readings:
1.   Byers, S. N. (2017). Introduction of forensic anthropology. New York: Taylor & Francis;
2.   Dix, J., & Graham M. (2000). Time of death, decomposition, and identification: An atlas. New York: CRC Press;
3.   Mann, R. W., Bass, W. M., & Meadows, L. (1990). Time since death and decomposition of the human body: variables and observations in case and experimental field studies. Journal of Forensic Sciences, 35, 103-111., 1990;
4.   Vass, A. A. (2001). Beyond the grave-understanding human decomposition. Microbial Today, 28, 190-193.

That's interesting. We'll have look at it in more detail. Too bad I have very little time for the Dyatlov incident...

Hello, dear WAB, and thank you for the kind words in your comment!

It took me only 2 years to get to 100  grin1

About your second point – now that you said it, I realize the actual limitation of possibilities for small rodents and bigger scavengers in those circumstances, and I absolutely agree about the microfauna organism-scavengers and de-composers. It makes way more sense.
To be honest, I still haven’t studied thoroughly the sources I`ve listed, but the more I read from them, the more I understand the natural preconditions. As long as we can reasonably explain certain problematic points, there is definitely no need for extraterrestrial or other unnatural or unreal explanations.

Better stick with simplicity and reason, I think.

Time is precious as they say, so we need to have priorities when distributing it. 

That being said, I appreciate the time you spend in this wonderful forum.  okey1

July 21, 2020, 03:18:19 PM
Reply #125
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well I am reading with interest the various possibilities. The Event at the Ravine is obviously critical to ever being able to solve the Dyatlov Mystery. However, just a reminder about the position of Dubinina. Her final resting place is in a stream. The Authorities, who we can not really trust to have given all of the information or evidence, push the DECOMPOSITION THEORY and PREDATOR THEORY to explain the missing Eyes and Tongue and Facial Tissue. Low temperature slows the rate of decomposition.  Predators would eat away any body parts not just the parts that we see. Therefore the body of Dubinina should be very putrified and well eaten.  But that is not what we see with the body of Dubinina. In fact we dont see it with any of the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. What we do see is very unusual injuries not caused by decomposition or putrefaction.


Well she was missing soft tissue above her eyes, revealing bone, and also around her lips. This is indicative of decomp.

Indicative indeed. But only indicative and not PROOF.  There is no proof of serious DECOMPOSITION or PUTREFACTION of any of the bodies.  Look at the photos and then have a look at photos of people who have been found in the wild after a few weeks. And that includes water. And low temperatures. And no mention of finding any flesh eating bacteria or predators during the Autopsy Investigation.  You can read as many reports as possible and I have read many but you will find that there is no simple be all and end all explanation regarding how bodies decompose. All cases are unique. And with Dubinina, very unique. Extraordinary. The closest I have seen to those photos of her body are of the phenomenon of CATTLE MUTILATIONS.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 03:35:36 PM by sarapuk »
DB