December 01, 2020, 06:21:48 AM
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Author Topic: A compass points at the strongest magnetic object  (Read 299 times)

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November 21, 2020, 10:58:09 AM
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Nigel Evans


So we have the autopsy report that Semyon was found with a compass in his (left) hand.
We also know that he died in great pain from a flail chest. Every breath would have flexed his broken rib cage defeating the action of his diaphragm. (that's why it's so named).
We know that ravine four must have died on top of the snow (falling / murder) or underneath the snow (crushed).
We know that the pathologist estimated that Semyon probably lived longer than Lyudmila who lived long enough for her internal bleeding estimated as 10 minutes. So a reasonable estimate for Semyon is 20 minutes perhaps.
 
So now for some conjecture which i'll pose as some questions and answers.
Q. Is it possible that he was using the compass at the event that resulted in these injuries?
A. Yes, he could have taking a bearing just before he fell for instance.
Q. But if he was then in great pain for 20 minutes is it reasonable that he would hold onto his compass?
A. Not really, 20 minutes is a long time to hold onto an object that is irrelevant to your immediate problem - high levels of pain.
Q. So ditto murder, if your chest just been smashed up you wouldn't hold onto a compass for 20 minutes?
A. Agreed it seems highly improbable that the falling or murder scenarios would result in Semyon holding onto a compass for 20minutes. He almost certainly would be using his hands to try and control his rib cage's unnatural movements. That would be anyone's instinct
Q. What if he immediately became unconscious or was unconscious before the chest trauma?
A. Well he still has to keep a grip firm enough that the compass will stay in place to reach the autopsy. That has to be improbable?
Q. So is there any other scenario to explain him dying holding a compass?
A. Ah, glad you asked. There is the crushed in the den theory. This is an excellent fit because the snow that transmits the crushing force would become extremely compressed and solid in order to do so. This compressed snow would then prevent any further movement of the body. Essentially the bodies were instantly set in concrete. So if he was crushed "in an instant" it would capture his grip around the compass and prevent it from changing whatever his instinctive response to pain.
Q. Ok sounds good except for one little thing. Why would he want to use a compass inside a den?
A. Ah, again glad you asked. Because if electro magnetic objects were flying around they would almost certainly deviate the compass from it's usual direction of north. Remember the pilot's observation who got close to one of the Ural lights stating that his instruments went haywire? Same thing. Semyon could have been using his compass to regularly assess the situation hence keeping it in his hand between checks.

 
 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2020, 02:18:44 PM by Nigel Evans »

November 21, 2020, 12:22:08 PM
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mk


I like this theory.

He would need a light to read the compass, especially inside the den.

If one of them did have a notebook after all, it would go with the idea that they were checking the events & maybe planning to jot down time, location, etc.

If it were a light meter rather than a compass, would that also fit with the scenario?


November 21, 2020, 02:22:25 PM
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Nigel Evans


I like this theory.

He would need a light to read the compass, especially inside the den.

If one of them did have a notebook after all, it would go with the idea that they were checking the events & maybe planning to jot down time, location, etc.

If it were a light meter rather than a compass, would that also fit with the scenario?
Not if the compass used luminescent paint?
Yes it could be that the notebook contained a log that read as gibberish.I'd suggest that a state qualified pathologist knows the difference between the two.

November 22, 2020, 11:42:51 AM
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Monty


Nice opening conjecture Nigel. My immediate thought would be to try and establish the notepad claim and whether the bodies were confused. Given the truly miserable condition they were found in, perhaps both the compass and notepad existed - just not in the possession of the same person. It can't have been easy to work out whose remains were whose in the first instance.
Could Semyon have died elsewhere and been moved still holding the compass? Or perhaps it was getting light enough to use it. Without a map, it doesn't make a lot of sense.
I will give this thread more thought as the potential explanations are complex.

November 23, 2020, 10:41:48 AM
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Monty


I noticed in a 2018 thread by the global admin LC that within the autopsy there was confusion over the context of left hand. It was considered to be left hand side, perhaps in the pocket of the lhs. As opposed to in his left hand. I don't read Russian so can only rely on the kind work of the site owner. I have to go with it being in his left hand, as that is what Teddy has written.
Plus, I'm no genius with translate software but my phone reckons it means wearing. So its a novelty compass watch? Confused am l.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 10:49:01 AM by Monty »

November 23, 2020, 12:12:17 PM
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eurocentric


Semyon's autopsy report, unlike Rustem, Tibo & Igor's, does not mention a watch.

Yet photo's of him appear to show something on either wrist, one of which you'd anticipate was a watch. Maybe one wrist had a compass, and there's been a mistranslation. Most right-sided men wear a watch on their left wrist. 





The strap around Semyon's right wrist from the recovery photo:


His left:


Examples of a vintage Soviet wrist compass:






From the autopsies:

Igor
On the lower third portion of the left forearm there is a Zvezda brand watch



Rustem
The left arm is drawn back and to the side and is straight at the elbow. On his wrist is a Zvezda brand watch








Tibo
 On the left forearm there are two watches: a Sportivnye watch showing the time 8 hours, 14 minutes, 24 seconds, and a Pobeda brand watch showing the time 8 hours, 39 minutes.








« Last Edit: November 23, 2020, 12:46:16 PM by eurocentric »

November 23, 2020, 12:40:02 PM
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Monty



November 23, 2020, 01:35:43 PM
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RidgeWatcher


I just read up about illumination on wrist watches since 1912 (I apologize for the adverts):


https://www.ablogtowatch.com/what-you-want-to-know-about-watch-luminant/2/

Out of all the wrist watches, one might have had night illumination they could see in the dark?

November 23, 2020, 05:22:28 PM
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sarapuk

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This is an interesting Topic by Nigel. Lets remember that Ivanov described the Geiger Counters as going crazy during the search for bodies. Maybe Compasses also were affected by something at the time of the Incident.
DB

November 24, 2020, 03:38:47 AM
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Nigel Evans


Checking the translation across my three references - Here, Svetlana Oss and "the website that cannot be named oh no no no...", the first two use "holding" the last "wearing". Given that the discovery photo clearly shows him wearing an object on his wrist and no mention of a watch in the autopsy report then i'm inclined to lean in favour of him wearing a compass, not holding one. This of course somewhat undermines the case made so far.
However there is the question about what is he holding in his left hand and what is that rod like object in his right hand? And of course how it relates to his death. E.g. if you're lying there with a flail chest can you write notes? Is that possible. Looking at the morgue photo the top half of his chest isn't just fractured, it's flattened?

November 24, 2020, 05:28:45 PM
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WAB


Lets remember that Ivanov described the Geiger Counters as going crazy during the search for bodies.

This is not Ivanov described, this is paraphrase through the fourth ears. None of those who were on the search for long time (almost continuously, if you count the whole chain of participants) did not remember it.
This is especially clear, because it is associated with Abram Kikoin. But at that time there were Professor (now) Peter Bartholomew and Sergey Sogrin. I asked them in detail. They all deny it.
And second: the level of maximum radiation that was determined in the laboratory on the clothes of the last travelers was no more than 135 Becquerels. This much gives, for example, 1.5 kg (3.3 lb) of bananas. Only they have a full area exists more.

Maybe Compasses also were affected by something at the time of the Incident.

Everything is much simpler here. Zolotarev had Andrianov`s compass - https://i.ibb.co/MMwmHxD/s-l300.jpg  . At that time, the top of the northern arrow was covered with mixture of phosphorus and radium, which gave relatively high radiation. This is explains increased background.
RidgeWatcher gave reference to the watch, there is exactly the same.

November 26, 2020, 12:41:55 PM
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sarapuk

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Lets remember that Ivanov described the Geiger Counters as going crazy during the search for bodies.

This is not Ivanov described, this is paraphrase through the fourth ears. None of those who were on the search for long time (almost continuously, if you count the whole chain of participants) did not remember it.
This is especially clear, because it is associated with Abram Kikoin. But at that time there were Professor (now) Peter Bartholomew and Sergey Sogrin. I asked them in detail. They all deny it.
And second: the level of maximum radiation that was determined in the laboratory on the clothes of the last travelers was no more than 135 Becquerels. This much gives, for example, 1.5 kg (3.3 lb) of bananas. Only they have a full area exists more.

Maybe Compasses also were affected by something at the time of the Incident.

Everything is much simpler here. Zolotarev had Andrianov`s compass - https://i.ibb.co/MMwmHxD/s-l300.jpg  . At that time, the top of the northern arrow was covered with mixture of phosphorus and radium, which gave relatively high radiation. This is explains increased background.
RidgeWatcher gave reference to the watch, there is exactly the same.

Thats interesting. Obviously we have to rely a lot on what members of the search parties said, including what is alleged to have been said. Geiger Counters were used but we have no records.
DB

November 27, 2020, 09:51:11 AM
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Manti


The use of Geiger counters by the search crew is intriguing in itself. It is not routine at all when searching for missing hikers, why would anyone think of checking for radiation?

And also, it doesn't help in locating them either, unless.... those searching were aware that the bodies of hikers would be contaminated with radiation...   nea1

November 27, 2020, 11:47:35 AM
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sarapuk

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The use of Geiger counters by the search crew is intriguing in itself. It is not routine at all when searching for missing hikers, why would anyone think of checking for radiation?

And also, it doesn't help in locating them either, unless.... those searching were aware that the bodies of hikers would be contaminated with radiation...   nea1

Yes thats a good point about the Searchers using Geiger Counters because they believed that the bodies may be contaminated with Radiation.  If you were going to be using Geiger Counters for whatever reason, you would want to keep a record of the readouts. But we have no record of readouts for the time that the Geiger Counters were used during the Search. Also they may have been using the Geiger Counters for other reasons . But no records.
DB

November 28, 2020, 05:50:00 AM
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Nigel Evans


What imo is very interesting wrt whole missile/military radiation/state coverup theory is that we only know about geiger counters etc because of the civilians who a) found the tent and first bodies, and b) were employed through the entire investigation as workers to probe a massive area of snow covered mountain etc etc.


Surely if this was a top secret operation using military technology civilians would never have been allowed near the place? One thing the Soviet military was not short of in 1959 was manpower. It's probably no exaggeration to say that half the population were working directly or indirectly for the military. So why use civilian labour?

November 28, 2020, 08:20:48 AM
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eurocentric


Maybe it was just Cold War paranoia, they discover bodies laid out on the pass and under the cedar, well away from the tent, nothing makes apparent sense, they have seemingly 'fled their tent in panic' only to inevitably die outside, and due to the effects of frostbite and the cold the bodies have a strange pallor, so to process something they could not immediately rationalise they automatically thought it was "the Americans".

Back then nobody would consider chemical or biological weapons, so any mysterious set of mass casualties out in the open 'had' to be the result of radioactivity, and rather than having to send out for a geiger counter they would likely have this equipment on board military helicopters so used them, and picked up the radiation from rocks (which can also, with magnetic anomalies, affect compass needles).

Another possibility is that if the level of radiation later found on 3 items of clothing belonging to 2 hikers had somehow contaminated the tent, through proximity, it may have been slightly visible to the recovery team as a faint glow in the dark, in the manner of a luminous watch face. There may have been other radioactive clothing in the tent, items which weren't tested.

That was actually my initial theory when I was new to the DPI, that the hikers saw a glow inside the tent, perhaps on an especially dark night, thought they were pitched in an irradiated zone, removed clothing, freaked out and ran off, not returning, and that 4 bodies found in a ravine, most of them the best dressed, had been trying to decontaminate themselves.

Once the rumour of radioactivity grew, in the months before the ravine 4 were found, and if the earlier findings regarding Yuri K's clothing was made public before then, this would then explain the helicopter recovery pilots refusal to take the ravine bodies unless they were in lead-lined coffins.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2020, 10:45:26 AM by eurocentric »

November 28, 2020, 04:10:35 PM
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sarapuk

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What imo is very interesting wrt whole missile/military radiation/state coverup theory is that we only know about geiger counters etc because of the civilians who a) found the tent and first bodies, and b) were employed through the entire investigation as workers to probe a massive area of snow covered mountain etc etc.


Surely if this was a top secret operation using military technology civilians would never have been allowed near the place? One thing the Soviet military was not short of in 1959 was manpower. It's probably no exaggeration to say that half the population were working directly or indirectly for the military. So why use civilian labour?

Difficult to say I suppose about the military working with civilians. It does happen. But what reason was there that brought in the Geiger Counters, we dont know, there are no records.
DB

November 29, 2020, 04:29:07 AM
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Nigel Evans


What imo is very interesting wrt whole missile/military radiation/state coverup theory is that we only know about geiger counters etc because of the civilians who a) found the tent and first bodies, and b) were employed through the entire investigation as workers to probe a massive area of snow covered mountain etc etc.


Surely if this was a top secret operation using military technology civilians would never have been allowed near the place? One thing the Soviet military was not short of in 1959 was manpower. It's probably no exaggeration to say that half the population were working directly or indirectly for the military. So why use civilian labour?

Difficult to say I suppose about the military working with civilians. It does happen. But what reason was there that brought in the Geiger Counters, we dont know, there are no records.


The involvement of civilians must strongly undermine all the military/coverup conspiracy theories.

November 30, 2020, 01:56:19 PM
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
What imo is very interesting wrt whole missile/military radiation/state coverup theory is that we only know about geiger counters etc because of the civilians who a) found the tent and first bodies, and b) were employed through the entire investigation as workers to probe a massive area of snow covered mountain etc etc.


Surely if this was a top secret operation using military technology civilians would never have been allowed near the place? One thing the Soviet military was not short of in 1959 was manpower. It's probably no exaggeration to say that half the population were working directly or indirectly for the military. So why use civilian labour?

Difficult to say I suppose about the military working with civilians. It does happen. But what reason was there that brought in the Geiger Counters, we dont know, there are no records.


The involvement of civilians must strongly undermine all the military/coverup conspiracy theories.

Yes thats correct I suppose. Ive never been one to think along the lines of military involvement. But after the civilian search parties left the area then its possible that the military moved in for some reason.
DB