Dyatlov fallout radiation hypothesis

[Dr. Curious]

Hi everyone!

I recently became interested in the Dyatlov incident and I looked into the radiation aspect today. I tried finding similar arguments to mine online and in the forum but couldn’t find any. In case my hypothesis was already mentioned before, feel free to delete this thread. Otherwise I’m interested in what you guys think about it and I would be thrilled if this could contribute to solving the radiation mystery:

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According to the official radiology lab report ( https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-371-377 ) high levels of “beta-only” radiation were detected in the clothes of the four hikers found in May 1959 lying in a snowmelt creek. The source of the radiation is considered a mystery and due to lying in running water for weeks it is widely assumed that the radiation levels were much higher at the time of death.

I want to present the following contradictory hypothesis:
The radiation levels at the time of death were probably normal and lying in from fallout contaminated snowmelt for weeks is likely to be the reason for the detected radiation.

“Beta-only” radiation is quite rare and (given the lab did its job right) points to a few very specific isotopes called “Beta Emitters”. Those are typically found in long-term fallout particles from nuclear fission explosions. One of them is Strontium-90.
According to the following study Strontium-90 was found in significant amounts in rivers around the Dyatlov Pass and all over Russia at that time as a result of continuing nuclear test detonations.

“SR-90 discharge with main rivers of Russia into the Arctic Ocean during  1961-1990”
https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/28/041/28041362.pdf
by V.B. Chumichev, Federal Environmental Emergency Response Centre SPA “Typhoon”, Obninsk,  Russia.

36 nuclear test detonations were conducted in Russia in 1958 alone before the Test Ban Treaty was signed in late October. The radionuclides from these detonations spread in the atmosphere and precipitated through rain and snow in a slow, gradual process, resulting in Strontium-90 contamination (among other beta emitters). The snow at the Dyatlov pass probably collected contaminated particles for five or six months before it melted in May.

Fabric in clothing or the fine mesh they are comprised of can act like a filter in running water. As a matter of fact, fabric is used in various filters for that reason. Given particles containing the Strontium-90 (and other beta emitters) were bound in the snow and running through the snowmelt creek the four hikers were lying in (which seems very likely), I find the idea more than compelling that those particles were filtered, collected and concentrated over weeks in the hikers clothes, resulting in the high levels of "beta-only" radiation later detected in the lab. The random distribution of the contamination being a result of the random exposure to the water (and other factors like: time, type of fabric, mesh density, position in the current, position of the fabric mesh in relation to the current, etc.etc.).

I think this hypothesis could explain:
-why only beta radiation was found
-why the distribution of the contamination seemed random
-why the radiation (particles containing it) could be washed out
-why Dubininas sweater showed the highest levels of contamination (having the largest surface area in contact with the water plus her upright angle forcing more water through the fabric due to gravity.)   
-why only the clothes of the four hikers found in the water showed contamination (Only those four were tested. Possibly because only their Geiger readouts justified further lab-testing.)

-> In conclusion: The detected radiation in the four hikers' clothes is likely to be the result of collected fallout dust rendering the radiation aspect completely irrelevant to the hikers’ deaths.

This hypothesis could easily be tested in order to prove it right or wrong, running fallout particle contaminated water through fabric, replicating the circumstances from 1959.

To further strengthen this hypothesis I quickly ran some numbers:
-Could an amount of fallout dust be collected in the hikers clothes that would explain the radiation levels later measured in the lab?

Radiation levels actually measured in the clothes:
Lets make it tough and take the highest measured level of
9900cpm/150cm² = 165 Bq/150cm² = 1.1 Bq/cm²

Let’s say the complete front of Dubininas sweater has to have the highest radiation level:
1.1Bq/cm² x 2000cm² = 2200Bq

Due to the lack of better data (for now), lets make it tough as well and take only the SR-90 levels measured by SPA Typhoon in the closest river to Dyatlov (Ob’) in 1961: 30 Bq/m³

Let’s say only 5% of the water passing by Dubinina actually went through her sweater.
Looking at the waterflow on the photo with her body: 20l/sec over 14 days is 24.192m³. ( https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-2.jpg )
24.192m³ / 20 = 1209,6m³ (5%)

Let’s say of those 5% of water passing through her sweater, 5% of the dust in it was actually filtered and remained in her sweater:

1209,6m³@30 Bq/m³ = 36.288Bq / 20 = 1814,4 Bq !!!

That’s pretty close to the 2200Bq we wanted and all of that under pretty tough circumstances:
-highest lab-measured radiation level on the complete front of her sweater!
-only going by SR-90 even though that is just one under several beta-only fallout isotopes!
-assuming 5% water passing through her sweater at 5% filtration!

This is still UNSCIENTIFIC AF and any scientist worth a grain of salt would beat me to death seeing it.
But given the fact that only a test could determine the dozens of relevant factors – I think those numbers are an interesting indicator.

->If the water running through the hikers’ clothes was contaminated with radioactive dust which evidently was present all over Russia at that time through regular nuclear testing fallout alone,
IT COULD RESULT IN THE RADIATION LEVELS MEASURED IN THE LAB!!! 

 

I should mention that I’m not a scientist and neither did I back up my findings with one, but to me and my limited knowledge this hypothesis seems to be the best explanation so far for the radiation mystery. In fact it seems so obvious and logical that I doubt I’m the first one coming up with it. ; )
But I thought: Let’s give it a shot anyway!

Let me know what you guys think!

Greetings from Berlin!
Felix

PS: I updated this post due to further research. It said SR-90 Radiation Hypothesis before which was unnecessarily specific. The rough calculation was not part of the original posting.
PPS: If you want to publish or quote my hypothesis or parts of it publicly, contact me first. I’m in contact with the Joint Research Center working on validation and publication of my findings.

[sarapuk]

Welcome to the Forum at an interesting time. Some other Members seem to have some good ideas at the Radiation explanation. But on the face of it it looks like as you say, that particular type of Radiation could be due to all those Soviet Tests.

[ash73]

Ideas like this are great for eliminating a whole raft of theories. I'm sure the answer can be determined.

The levels were only 3 times more than background iirc, about the same as the exposure from taking a long haul flight.

[Star man]

Welcome.  Your theory is possible.  Strontium behaves similarly to calcium, which is not greatly soluble so could be captured as particles in water.

Regards

Star man

[Missi]

Hi Felix,
what are the odds... Greetings from Berlin to Berlin. ;)

Now to the facts.

It surely is possible that your theory is right. I'm no scientist either, but here are my thoughts that might ruin it:

As far as I know there's no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested.
The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think.
It was established elsewhere in this forum, that the nuclear tests didn't only release strontium into nature but also other radioactive elements. The study you quoted reflects on strontium only, probably because it's soluble in water and therefore can be carried to the sea, which is the intention of the study to view upon. It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water and especially that close to the top of the mountain aka the beginning of the current. Wouldn't there have been traces of other radioactive sources than beta? Then again maybe there wouldn't because only strontium might have been distributed so far across the land. I don't know, just trying to point to things that should be considered.
And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated...

[Dr. Curious]

Hi Missi!

Don't worry, I don't think your remarks ruin my hypothesis. ; )

"no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested."

-That seems to be correct. I crossed this paragraph, thank you for bringing it up! One reason for not testing them could be that initial Geiger counter tests showed no significant contamination to justify further lab testing. Does anyone have info regarding this point in general (on why only those four were tested)?

"The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think."

-I think the picture taken of Dubinina lying in the creek shows a waterflow of at least 20l/sec. If you run the numbers according to the assumed minimum of two weeks lying in the creek you end up with 26 Million liters of molten contaminated snow rushing past them. Even if it only was 1/10 of that in reality - probably still enough. I'm not qualified to compare the measurements of the SPA to the findings in the clothes, but a sample size of 20l(!) of water was enough for the SPA to detect the SR-90 sufficiently. I guess only an expert could determine if the circumstances allowed for the detection of the radiation levels later found in the lab. 

"It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water (...)"
-True. And I didn't say it does. ; )

"And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated..."

-As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) zinc doesn't protect particularly well against radiation and was never meant to do so, but it was the standard material used for coffins that required to be air- or watertight for various reasons, for example slowing down decomposition or leaking. 

Thanks and best regards!
Felix

[Missi]

"no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested."

-That seems to be correct. I crossed this paragraph, thank you for bringing it up! One reason for not testing them could be that initial Geiger counter tests showed no significant contamination to justify further lab testing. Does anyone have info regarding this point in general (on why only those four were tested)?

As far as I know, there was no geiger counter present, when they found the first five victims. It was brought there later with someone who came there for the finding of the other four victims in May.
So there's no evidence for the present but as well none for the absence of radiation. It's just unclear.

"The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think."

-I think the picture taken of Dubinina lying in the creek shows a waterflow of at least 20l/sec. If you run the numbers according to the assumed minimum of two weeks lying in the creek you end up with 26 Million liters of molten contaminated snow rushing past them. Even if it only was 1/10 of that in reality - probably still enough. I'm not qualified to compare the measurements of the SPA to the findings in the clothes, but a sample size of 20l(!) of water was enough for the SPA to detect the SR-90 sufficiently. I guess only an expert could determine if the circumstances allowed for the detection of the radiation levels later found in the lab. 

It's not the amount of water I'm suspicious about but rather why the snow should be contaminated. Snow is rather pure. If it's contaminated, that'd be by nuclear tests after or during snowfall (which we can rule out, as far as I know, because of the moratorium starting with November) or because the land it covers is contaminated. But there's not so much land the snow that's caught in the current there on the hill can originate from. Would that really ad up to that much radiation?

"It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water (...)"
-True. And I didn't say it does. ; )

But if there was other radiation sources in the water and later in the clothes, the tests would have shown other than beta radiation.

"And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated..."

-As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) zinc doesn't protect particularly well against radiation and was never meant to do so, but it was the standard material used for coffins that required to be air- or watertight for various reasons, for example slowing down decomposition or leaking. 

You are right. They did use zinc coffins for other reasons than radiation. But they also put the victims of Chernobyl in zinc coffins (although it was just one layer and they also put cement around the coffins).
There's still the question: Why put one in a zinc coffin and not the others? What was different about him?

[eurocentric]

One thing which struck me as odd was the investigators don't appear to have visited the homes of Yuri K and Aleksander to positively confirm their clothing was the source of radiation by scanning the rest of their clothing and where it was stored. Find other traces there and you would firmly establish if they took radiation to the pass, otherwise it's just an assumption.

And for the sake of the health of their families it needed to be determined if there was any other potential radiological danger in their homes.

Without any record of this test (that I'm aware) it might suggest they already knew the source was the mountain, or that area, and would determine the scope of this contamination from geiger counter tests at distances from 1079.

After this tragedy locals were told to avoid using the wells and not to hunt for 4 years (according to the BBC article). That all seems like overkill if two men had merely travelled through the district wearing 3 pieces of radioactive clothing, with one ending up in a ravine.

[Dr. Curious]

@Missi
Hey, being white doesn’t automatically make things pure! ; )  (random pc-joke)
I’m not a meteorologist, but isn’t snow just frozen atmospheric water? Like eh, you know, rain, but colder? All jokes aside, I think if anything the six months of snow collected and then released way more fallout at once than normally would through rain. 

Here is an interesting document about the fallout and SR-90 concentrations in the rain in the late 1950s and 60s: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/j.2153-3490.1964.tb00154.x
(Netherlands, but hence the fallout originated in Russia you’ll get the idea.)
Fallout is a complex topic, takes various forms and time frames. I’d suggest you come forward with specific evidence contradicting my hypothesis- otherwise you and I will write novels here. ; )

Zinc coffin: As you correctly pointed out before, we don’t know anything about the contamination of the remaining five hikers. That makes the zinc coffin pure, white speculation. (Sorry, I’m just kidding, no front! ; )
 
@eurocentric
Yeah, hard to comprehend all of these things, I think partly because the hierarchies, policies and habits from late 50s USSR are quite alien to us nowadays. They pretty much classified everything, swept it under the rug or silenced those who talked. The constant threat of being punished yourself manifested itself in a collective mentality of avoiding anything out of the necessary. That of course is a vast and unfair generalization, but you know what I mean. ; )
The following made things easier for me regarding Dyatlov (and is a good rule of thumb in scientific work): Stick to what is known or can be known and draw conclusions from that. Everything else will drive you crazy.  ; )

Best regards!
Felix

[RMK]

Hi, Felix.

For a while, I've thought, similarly to you, that the radioactive clothes might be a "red herring" and not relevant to the case.  However, instead of nuclear weapon tests, perhaps the Kyshtym Disaster of 1957 might be the source of the water's radioactive contamination?  The front page of dyatlovpass.com has an article about the Disaster, BTW.

[Missi]

Thanks Felix, I'll read the text. It looks interesting.

And yes, you're right. I made a mistake. I was thinking about rain and snow being pure in the sense of distilled water. But of course, since there's such a thing as acid rain, that doesn't apply here. Indeed, you might be on to something.

For the topic of the zinc coffin: I didn't intend anything but to keep in mind that there's some things we don't know that are strange. And the zinc coffins are one of those things. We don't know much about the reasons and I do believe there's only two possible reasons. One is just simply coincidence and randomness into which we interpret just too much. The other is there was someone who knew more than we know even today and it was logical to use a zinc coffin.


There was a nice thread about the possibility of someone bringing radiation on his clothes from Mayak. The argumentation was along the lines that the kyshtym disaster had produced more than just beta radiation and that those must have been detectable on the clothes as well, if it was brought from there. Not my argumentation, just a short summery of what I read in the subforum of the radiation theory.

[Dr. Curious]

I just did a little more research. Even though I wasn’t able to find it yesterday:
It seems like most isotopes from long-term fallout are beta-only emitters!? Like Strontium-90, Iodine-131, Caesium-137, Tritium, etc. So beta-only is not so special at all as long as you’re looking within long-term fission fallout products? xD

Then I have to find a new name for my hypothesis. ; ) Any experts here who could confirm the statement above? I hate radio chemistry.

So then the only questions remaining are:

-Is clothing capable of collecting fallout dust when immersed in a stream of running water containing the dust? (I think the answer is almost certainly: yes).

-Could an amount be collected that would explain the radiation levels measured in the lab?

Radiation levels actually measured in the clothes:
Lets make it tough and take the highest measured level of
9900cpm/150cm² = 165 Bq/150cm² = 1.1 Bq/cm²

Let’s say the complete front of Dubininas sweater has to have the highest radiation level:
1.1Bq/cm² x 2000cm² = 2200Bq

Due to the lack of better data (for now), lets make it tough as well and take only the SR-90 levels measured by SPA Typhoon in the closest river to Dyatlow (Ob’) in 1961: 30 Bq/m³

Let’s say only 5% of the water passing by Dubinina actually went through her sweater.
Looking at the waterflow on the photo with her body: 20l/sec over 14 days is 24.192m³.
24.192m³ / 20 = 1209,6m³ (5%)

Let’s say of those 5% of water passing through her sweater, 5% of the dust in it was actually filtered and remained in her sweater:

1209,6m³@30 Bq/m³ = 36.288Bq / 20 = 1814,4 Bq !!!

That’s pretty close to the 2200Bq we wanted and all of that under pretty tough circumstances:
-highest lab-measured radiation level on the complete front of her sweater!
-only going by SR-90 even though that is just one under several beta-only fallout isotopes!
-assuming only 5% water passing through her sweater at only 5% filtration!

This is still UNSCIENTIFIC AF and any scientist worth a grain of salt would beat me to death seeing it.
But given the fact that only a test could determine the dozens of realevant factors – I think this further strengthens my hypothesis!

->If the water running through the hikers’ clothes was contaminated with radioactive dust which evidently was present all over Russia at that time through regular nuclear testing fallout alone, IT COULD RESULT IN THE RADIATION LEVELS MEASURED IN THE LAB!!! 

 

[sarapuk]

"no evidence that the other five victims did not show traces of radiation. It just wasn't tested."

-That seems to be correct. I crossed this paragraph, thank you for bringing it up! One reason for not testing them could be that initial Geiger counter tests showed no significant contamination to justify further lab testing. Does anyone have info regarding this point in general (on why only those four were tested)?

As far as I know, there was no geiger counter present, when they found the first five victims. It was brought there later with someone who came there for the finding of the other four victims in May.
So there's no evidence for the present but as well none for the absence of radiation. It's just unclear.

"The creek, the four were found in, was not a creek as such, but the way thawed water found its way underneath the blanket of snow down the hill. Meaning the distance it had traveled was kinda short and it must have picked up a lot of radioactive dust on those several 100m, I think."

-I think the picture taken of Dubinina lying in the creek shows a waterflow of at least 20l/sec. If you run the numbers according to the assumed minimum of two weeks lying in the creek you end up with 26 Million liters of molten contaminated snow rushing past them. Even if it only was 1/10 of that in reality - probably still enough. I'm not qualified to compare the measurements of the SPA to the findings in the clothes, but a sample size of 20l(!) of water was enough for the SPA to detect the SR-90 sufficiently. I guess only an expert could determine if the circumstances allowed for the detection of the radiation levels later found in the lab. 

It's not the amount of water I'm suspicious about but rather why the snow should be contaminated. Snow is rather pure. If it's contaminated, that'd be by nuclear tests after or during snowfall (which we can rule out, as far as I know, because of the moratorium starting with November) or because the land it covers is contaminated. But there's not so much land the snow that's caught in the current there on the hill can originate from. Would that really ad up to that much radiation?

"It doesn't mean that there only is strontium traces in the water (...)"
-True. And I didn't say it does. ; )

But if there was other radiation sources in the water and later in the clothes, the tests would have shown other than beta radiation.

"And then there's the mystery of one of the first five victims (I forgot who it was) being buried in a zinc coffin and not being shown to the public as if he as well was radioactive contaminated..."

-As far as I know (and correct me if I'm wrong) zinc doesn't protect particularly well against radiation and was never meant to do so, but it was the standard material used for coffins that required to be air- or watertight for various reasons, for example slowing down decomposition or leaking. 

You are right. They did use zinc coffins for other reasons than radiation. But they also put the victims of Chernobyl in zinc coffins (although it was just one layer and they also put cement around the coffins).
There's still the question: Why put one in a zinc coffin and not the others? What was different about him?

Apparently Ivanov used a Geiger Counter at the site of the Tent and noticed that the Readouts were off the scale. Thats very unusual. Unfortunatley Ivanov was not allowed to divulge this Information along with other Information because the Authorities told him to wrap up the Case ASAP.

[Dr. Curious]

sarapuk: “Apparently Ivanov used a Geiger Counter at the site of the Tent and noticed that the Readouts were off the scale”
-Source?

Here is what I found (sources below):
In July of 1990, Ivanov, the lead investigator(!), said in an interview he himself had to carry a large, wooden box to the scene which was clicking. He didn’t find out what it was but ASSUMES it was a Geiger counter, being SURE there was radiation. Alright…

Four months later in November 1990 he publishes his own article saying:
“When the investigation was underway (…) we did not know about radiation”

What is it then? You didn’t know about radiation or you were sure about it?
(OK, it is possible he only found out later what the clicking sound was, but still...)

Geiger counters of that time drew a lot of power and only gave live(!) readouts.
So why would anyone switch on the Geiger counter on its way to the scene inside a wooden box where nobody could even read the levels? Increasing the chance of being run out of power when the counter is actually needed? Why would anyone make the lead investigator carry a boxed Geiger counter that is swichted on but not read by anyone? 

Sorry but none of this makes any sense to me and Ivanov even contradicts himself.

And even if it was like he said: the clicking sound does not automatically mean “high radiation”. The clicks are single particles detected. So for example 9900cmp are 165 per second!

I get the feeling people are enjoying the mystery so much that they want to keep it as mysterious as possible instead of ruling out things to contribute to solving the case?

I laughed when I read this from Bogomolov:
“I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing.”
Yes, the lawyer of a lawyers’ lawyer told his sisters lawyer that…

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https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2

Bogomolov Interview with Lev Ivanov (July 1990)
"I did not work out the version about the light balls. I only managed to conduct a radiation examination. Even had to carry on location a device in a large wooden box.
- Geiger counter?
- Yes, it looks like it. It was clicking a lot... I am sure there was radiation. But nobody told me how much, and I didn't found out."

https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov

Ivanov himself (November 1990)
“The fact is that when the investigation was underway, (…) At that time, we still knew very little about unidentified flying objects, we did not know about radiation either.”
“Having conspired with scientists of the UFAN (Ural branch of the USSR Academy of Sciences), I conducted very extensive research on clothes and individual organs of the deceased for "radiation".the brown sweater of one of the hikers who had bodily injuries - gave 9900 decays per minute, and after washing the sample - 5200 decays, that is, these data indicate the presence of radioactive "dust" which was washed away.“
---

Ok so the last paragraph indicates that they had reasons to only lab-test the four hikers, maybe because only those bodies showed high contamination. But again: that’s all speculation and not really worth anything. What do you guys think? (And please - don't feel offended by what I'm writing, I'm just interested in getting closer to the truth. : )

[Missi]

I've also read that there was noticeable radiation around the tent area. I believe it was said by one interviewee and not part of the official file. I don't trust those things only said by one person of the search team that much. It might be correct, but he might also have been mistaken. If I remember correct, that is...

Concerning Ivanov: I understand those quotes that he is now sure there was radiation but they didn't know then. The clicking box is a mystery though, especially taking into account the part with the live readings I didn't know about.

As for the lawyer story: It's pretty impossible anything was glowing. But maybe the story was used to get someone do something. Speculation, that is. And highly not-verifiable.

I like your calculation, Felix. (The last equality hurts my mathematicians heart, though.  )
Did you also try to calculate the amount of radiation for the other two pieces of cloth? This one only fits to the sweater Ljuda was wearing, for you explicitly reference to the amount of water flowing through it. The other pieces probably filtered less water. Does it fit there as well?

As for the fallout emitters you mentioned:
Strontium 90 is a pure beta-emitter that as a half life of 28 years. This is a possibility to be around at the time in question in sufficient amounts. The product of decay is yttrium 90 which is a beta-emitter as well and has a half life of only about 3 days (a little less) and its product of decay is zirconium 90, which is stable. Given the times of half life, there's probably not much the yttrium does compared to strontium...
Iodine 131 is also a beta-emitter but its half life is only about 8 days. Given an amount of 100% at the time the moratorium began (which I believe was the end of November 1958, but could also have been the beginning of November and I'm just too lazy to find out right now), there came and went 8 times the half life of Iodine 131, leaving only 1/2⁸ of the amount in the beginning. I don't think that amount would be important, taking into account that this was not a site of a direct testing. Also the product of decay is xenon 131, which is stable.
Caesium 137 is decaying into barium 137 while emitting beta-radiation. Its half life is about 30 years. The barium is stable. So this would also be a viable candidate.
Tritium is not very plausible. It's gaseous, but I don't know if it's lighter or heavier than our normal air. It can be a byproduct of fission bombs but then there should have been something as uranium or plutonium, I guess. The stuff being gaseous just doesn't add up.

The question always is: Where does it come from? It obviously has to be a pure beta-emitter and it has to be a possible candidate of fallout occurring from a distance.

[itWasTheCIA]

Sorry for jumping in with such a short remark, but: Without remembering the details, I found the radiation levels to be way too inconsistent to have been picked up during the hike.

[Missi]

You're probably right with that point. But the thread of argument was that the radiation caused by some test or maybe accident was distributed via fallout in the area and the thawing snow that made up the current, the ravine 4 were lying in, had those contaminated dust particles filtered through their clothes, in which those particles stuck, causing the radiation level measured in the radiation test during the case.

On the other hand: Wouldn't they have picked up radioactive dust with their shoes as well, when moving around the area? Was that just not enough?

[Monty]

Hats off to some fairly geeky analysis. No harm intended. But perhaps the question should be asked. Why bring a geiger counter out to the middle of nowhere?

[Manti]

Welcome Dr. Curious, I think your analysis makes sense. This radiation could be from the stream.

I wanted to mention that we don't know for sure that the contamination was only a beta emitter. It might be that the "lab" where the clothes were tested had no means to measure other types of radiation, or that the other types were simply off scale (way too strong). I also wanted to say that this radiation could even be from elsewhere like the floor of the helicopter that transported the bodies, for example.

But one thing that is almost certain in any case is the radiation had nothing to do with their deaths, because internal tissues were also tested and came out negative, so it was only something on their clothes.


The mystery, then, is why radiation testing was ordered in the first place? And why were the results then removed from the case files? Because Ivanov's story about the glowing sweater is clearly nonsense.

[sarapuk]

sarapuk: “Apparently Ivanov used a Geiger Counter at the site of the Tent and noticed that the Readouts were off the scale”
-Source?

Here is what I found (sources below):
In July of 1990, Ivanov, the lead investigator(!), said in an interview he himself had to carry a large, wooden box to the scene which was clicking. He didn’t find out what it was but ASSUMES it was a Geiger counter, being SURE there was radiation. Alright…

Four months later in November 1990 he publishes his own article saying:
“When the investigation was underway (…) we did not know about radiation”

What is it then? You didn’t know about radiation or you were sure about it?
(OK, it is possible he only found out later what the clicking sound was, but still...)

Geiger counters of that time drew a lot of power and only gave live(!) readouts.
So why would anyone switch on the Geiger counter on its way to the scene inside a wooden box where nobody could even read the levels? Increasing the chance of being run out of power when the counter is actually needed? Why would anyone make the lead investigator carry a boxed Geiger counter that is swichted on but not read by anyone? 

Sorry but none of this makes any sense to me and Ivanov even contradicts himself.

And even if it was like he said: the clicking sound does not automatically mean “high radiation”. The clicks are single particles detected. So for example 9900cmp are 165 per second!

I get the feeling people are enjoying the mystery so much that they want to keep it as mysterious as possible instead of ruling out things to contribute to solving the case?

I laughed when I read this from Bogomolov:
“I learned from a lawyer, that another lawyer told him that Ivanov ordered this examination because he noticed how the hikers' clothes which lay on his floor in his office were glowing.”
Yes, the lawyer of a lawyers’ lawyer told his sisters lawyer that…

----

https://dyatlovpass.com/stanislav-bogomolov-2

Bogomolov Interview with Lev Ivanov (July 1990)
"I did not work out the version about the light balls. I only managed to conduct a radiation examination. Even had to carry on location a device in a large wooden box.
- Geiger counter?
- Yes, it looks like it. It was clicking a lot... I am sure there was radiation. But nobody told me how much, and I didn't found out."

https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov

Ivanov himself (November 1990)
“The fact is that when the investigation was underway, (…) At that time, we still knew very little about unidentified flying objects, we did not know about radiation either.”
“Having conspired with scientists of the UFAN (Ural branch of the USSR Academy of Sciences), I conducted very extensive research on clothes and individual organs of the deceased for "radiation".the brown sweater of one of the hikers who had bodily injuries - gave 9900 decays per minute, and after washing the sample - 5200 decays, that is, these data indicate the presence of radioactive "dust" which was washed away.“
---

Ok so the last paragraph indicates that they had reasons to only lab-test the four hikers, maybe because only those bodies showed high contamination. But again: that’s all speculation and not really worth anything. What do you guys think? (And please - don't feel offended by what I'm writing, I'm just interested in getting closer to the truth. : )

Well like I have said many times in this Forum, the Authorities told Ivanov to wrap up the matter as quickly as possible. It wasnt until the end of the USSR that Ivanov decided to go public. So it may appear at first sight that there are contradictions but there are not. It was merely Ivanov having to close the Case ASAP. And he did say that the Geiger Counter went crazy or words to that effect.

[sarapuk]

Hats off to some fairly geeky analysis. No harm intended. But perhaps the question should be asked. Why bring a geiger counter out to the middle of nowhere?

Thats one way of putting it. Well I think we can safely assume that the Metal Detectors where for searching for the bodies of the Dyatlov Group. But the Geiger Counter is an interesting one. And that could put paid to any of the Theories of a Nuclear Event, because if there was a Nuclear Event then the Authorities would already know about it and wouldnt need Geiger Counters. So what indeed was the reason for a Geiger Counter ! ?

[Manti]

If a satellite with potentially sensitive data or technology on it crashed, and it had a radioactive power source, then I could see the authorities combing the area for months with Geiger counters.

Doesn't even have to be a Russian satellite, finding an American one would be even more valuable. And given the reports of fireballs in the sky, maybe they considered this a possibility?
For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954

[Dr. Curious]

Hi everyone!

In general I like to stick to things that are somewhat credible, like test results from an official lab or observations made by independent sources. Everything else is entertaining but ends up in very “thin” conclusions at best which can easily be ripped apart.

Now don’t get me wrong: I started to look into the radiation in the first place hoping to find indicators for this whole Fireball/E.T. thing – but if logic then points to a boring but sensible conclusion, then that’s the way to go. 

Geiger counter: As far as I know this is a dead-end. Nobody knows for sure if there was a Geiger counter and even if so: nobody knows if significant radiation was detected. End of story.

@Missi
Thanks for your fallout remarks! You seem to be way better at this chemistry stuff than I am. Would be interesting to know what percentage of the beta-only fallout in snow/rain was SR-90. I am sure there are more studies on fallout measured in rain/snow at that time in Russia. We only have to find them! : )

I didn’t calculate anything else because this whole calculation is somewhat BS given the many “Let’s say” assumptions in it. But you could make the argument that the other clothes showed less  contamination because they had less contact with the water (among a million other possible factors like fabric filtration capabilities etcetc.). Only a test replicating the circumstances would really help. Probably a good idea for the next investigation or film documentary.

Shoe soles: I think neglectable compared to fabric filtering thousands of liters.

@itwasthecia
My hypothesis covers the aspect of inconsistent contamination. 
 
@Monty
Thanks, bro! I consider “geeky” a compliment. : )
Again – for me the Geiger counter is a dead-end, there could be good explanations for bringing one, still it wouldn’t help us.

@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).

Helicopter etc: Yes, yes, all of that is possible, but there is no indication for it.

Internal tissues: That is another sh*t show which has to be looked into: They didn’t come out negative, they just concluded that 8000cpm is normal in a heart due to a comparison sample? Either everybody in Russia at that time was radioactive or Wodka was involved conducting the test? ; )

@sarapuk
Alright. I just wanted to point out that I couldn’t find sources for your statement that Geiger counter levels were measured and “off the scale”. Correct me if I’m wrong. As I’ve said before, I like information that has a source or is at least somewhat credible. : )

@Manti (2nd)
If Santa Clause sniffed radioactive Cocaine and peed over the bodies – that would explain the radiation!!! Yeah, but again, its pure speculation. Look: We have evidence for fallout contamination and a logical explanation for how it may ended up in the clothes. Why looking for further explanations that are pure speculation? : )

Greetingz!!!

[Missi]

@Monty:
I think, that's a beautiful compliment. Although I'm not sure, what's so geeky about the analysis...

I currently am reading Die Toten vom Djatlow-Pass: Eines der letzten Geheimnisse des Kalten Krieges by Alexej Rakitin (whoever he might really be... or she?) So many of the things I say are based on what I read there during the last few days.

Geiger counter: As far as I know this is a dead-end. Nobody knows for sure if there was a Geiger counter and even if so: nobody knows if significant radiation was detected. End of story.

@Missi
Thanks for your fallout remarks! You seem to be way better at this chemistry stuff than I am. Would be interesting to know what percentage of the beta-only fallout in snow/rain was SR-90. I am sure there are more studies on fallout measured in rain/snow at that time in Russia. We only have to find them! : )

I didn’t calculate anything else because this whole calculation is somewhat BS given the many “Let’s say” assumptions in it. But you could make the argument that the other clothes showed less  contamination because they had less contact with the water (among a million other possible factors like fabric filtration capabilities etcetc.). Only a test replicating the circumstances would really help. Probably a good idea for the next investigation or film documentary.

Shoe soles: I think neglectable compared to fabric filtering thousands of liters.

I don't know whether I'm better than you. Basically I just recall a few things from school and verify via Wikipedia. But yes, there should be studies and it'd be very interesting to read them or at least filter the relevant information according our case.
Yes, of course the calculation is somewhat unreliable. But it's an estimate. If under somewhat plausible circumstances the numbers won't show it's probably the wrong way to go. If they do, it's worth looking into it further. That's how I see it.
But indeed, only a true experiment could show resilient results.
My experiences with leather let me think that it's not a good filter material. I'd rather say, the water was flowing around it.

Reading the above mentioned book, I came across the reminder, that also a ground sample from the creek was taken. That was tested negative for radiation. Shouldn't there be radioactive dust in that sample if the radiation was a result of the area being contaminated?

@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).

Helicopter etc: Yes, yes, all of that is possible, but there is no indication for it.

Internal tissues: That is another sh*t show which has to be looked into: They didn’t come out negative, they just concluded that 8000cpm is normal in a heart due to a comparison sample? Either everybody in Russia at that time was radioactive or Wodka was involved conducting the test? ; )

I believe that in the subforum about radiation there's a good explanation, why the conclusion that there being no other than beta-emitters is viable. It was connected to hard and soft radiation and the energy of the respective radiation. Maybe it was also a part of the above-mentioned book. I can't recollect it completely but might try, if it was only in the book and not in the forum.

There is the possibility that the clothes were contaminated post-finding. But what are the odds of only clothes belonging to one of them but being worn by different people collecting the dust?

As for the irrelevance concerning their death: I do think they didn't die of radiation. I also do think that the fact of radiation being present is uncommon enough it might be connected to their demise as in "the reason why they somehow died of other causes than radiation".

[Monty]

The analysis is complex and beyond me sadly. But still think it is odd first search no Geiger counter, second search pack the thing.. Does anyone have any thoughts - if the Geiger counter operator had stood above the bodies of the four in the ravine but on top of several metres of snow and turned it on would it register the contamination on the clothes?

[KFinn]

A few thoughts that may or may not be applicable.

Ivanov was an odd duck.  He did seem fixated on the balls of light in the sky, but I believe it was stated previously on the forum that he had also just recently finished a training that had to do with radiation.  Whether he did bring the Geiger counter on his own or not, there are too many conflicting reports.  And we know Krivonischenko worked at the Chelyabinsk  nuclear plant and was part of their clean up after the Kyshtym disaster in 1957.  One of the other hikers had worked there at some point.  Kolevetov had previously worked in a nuclear lab in Moscow.  Kolmogorova lived in a contaminated zone.  And we know that this area of the region still tests high for radiation (I.e. Josh Gates testing at the site in 2018.). Gates did tree core samples around the ridge and they did not show any higher than usual radiation for the 1959 year.  Does that indicate that there wasn't a singular catastrophic nuclear event on Kholat Syakl that year?  I don't know enough about radiation, myself. 

It is a mystery with so many variables.  I am enjoying this discussion unfold.  Thank you for sharing your info and such!!

[Missi]

Unfortunately there are contradictions.

I've read once that the area around the tent was highly radioactive.
I've read this once in one single interview said by one single person. Well, I might have read it a few times, but always quoting that interview. It's somewhere on the front site, I believe.

As mentioned before, there's the fact that only one of the first five was buried in a zinc coffin. On the other hand zinc is not really a protection against radiation, rather against leakage.

If I remember correctly, it was Ivanov himself who said in a recent interview, that he believes the site was contaminated and that he was given a wooden box which he believes to have been a geiger counter. And that he did observe the box to have clicked wildly.
There was the argument, that at that time there was only the possibility of live readings, as in once the number on the display disappeared, it was gone and nothing was gained by the measuring.

Whatever was released in Chelyabinsk was a mixture of various emitters. The first years it seems to have been largely gamma-emitters polluting the area, nowadays the most part seems to be indeed beta-emitters to be left. According to the book I mentioned above Krivonischenko was part of the teams that checked the area for highly contaminated parts and for radioactive objects, which then where evacuated, cleaned, destroyed or whatever could be done about them. That he of all people would bring contaminated objects out of the city seems improbable. Plus the rules seem to have been really strict. Appearently it was not only forbidden to take (or keep, for that matter) contaminated objects out of the closed zones, it was also considered treason.
I don't know about Kolmogorova, but I'd suspect that the argument that most of the radiation around the time was gamma, is also valid for her.
I don't know much about Kolevatov as of now.

@KFinn:
Do you refer to the Exploration Unknown episodes when mentioning the tree cores? I was also wondering about that. I know only about one core sample. So this one might be off for some reason. Yet I do believe, they would have taken and tested more than just one. I don't know. Gotta think about that, still.

[sarapuk]

If a satellite with potentially sensitive data or technology on it crashed, and it had a radioactive power source, then I could see the authorities combing the area for months with Geiger counters.

Doesn't even have to be a Russian satellite, finding an American one would be even more valuable. And given the reports of fireballs in the sky, maybe they considered this a possibility?
For example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosmos_954

But the Searchers were not looking for crashed Satellites, they were looking for the Dyatlov Group.

[sarapuk]

Hi everyone!

In general I like to stick to things that are somewhat credible, like test results from an official lab or observations made by independent sources. Everything else is entertaining but ends up in very “thin” conclusions at best which can easily be ripped apart.

Now don’t get me wrong: I started to look into the radiation in the first place hoping to find indicators for this whole Fireball/E.T. thing – but if logic then points to a boring but sensible conclusion, then that’s the way to go. 

Geiger counter: As far as I know this is a dead-end. Nobody knows for sure if there was a Geiger counter and even if so: nobody knows if significant radiation was detected. End of story.

@Missi
Thanks for your fallout remarks! You seem to be way better at this chemistry stuff than I am. Would be interesting to know what percentage of the beta-only fallout in snow/rain was SR-90. I am sure there are more studies on fallout measured in rain/snow at that time in Russia. We only have to find them! : )

I didn’t calculate anything else because this whole calculation is somewhat BS given the many “Let’s say” assumptions in it. But you could make the argument that the other clothes showed less  contamination because they had less contact with the water (among a million other possible factors like fabric filtration capabilities etcetc.). Only a test replicating the circumstances would really help. Probably a good idea for the next investigation or film documentary.

Shoe soles: I think neglectable compared to fabric filtering thousands of liters.

@itwasthecia
My hypothesis covers the aspect of inconsistent contamination. 
 
@Monty
Thanks, bro! I consider “geeky” a compliment. : )
Again – for me the Geiger counter is a dead-end, there could be good explanations for bringing one, still it wouldn’t help us.

@Manti
In the lab report it says: “When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.“
I think if the lab didn’t look for alpha or gamma or had no means of detecting it, they would have stated it clearly (this was a scientific lab after all).

Helicopter etc: Yes, yes, all of that is possible, but there is no indication for it.

Internal tissues: That is another sh*t show which has to be looked into: They didn’t come out negative, they just concluded that 8000cpm is normal in a heart due to a comparison sample? Either everybody in Russia at that time was radioactive or Wodka was involved conducting the test? ; )

@sarapuk
Alright. I just wanted to point out that I couldn’t find sources for your statement that Geiger counter levels were measured and “off the scale”. Correct me if I’m wrong. As I’ve said before, I like information that has a source or is at least somewhat credible. : )

@Manti (2nd)
If Santa Clause sniffed radioactive Cocaine and peed over the bodies – that would explain the radiation!!! Yeah, but again, its pure speculation. Look: We have evidence for fallout contamination and a logical explanation for how it may ended up in the clothes. Why looking for further explanations that are pure speculation? : )

Greetingz!!!

Well Ivanov said that he used a Geiger Counter. Ivanov was the Leading Investigator.

[sarapuk]

The analysis is complex and beyond me sadly. But still think it is odd first search no Geiger counter, second search pack the thing.. Does anyone have any thoughts - if the Geiger counter operator had stood above the bodies of the four in the ravine but on top of several metres of snow and turned it on would it register the contamination on the clothes?

The Geiger Counters used in the USSR in 1959 were fairly heavy duty types not the sensitive instruments we can have these days. I have a modern Digital Geiger Counter of the type that is used in the Chernobyl area. Its very sensitive. If there was only faint Radiation Levels then the old USSR type would be unlikely to Detect to any great depth. Probes were the preferred search tools.