December 03, 2021, 07:55:04 AM
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Author Topic: <Book Spoiler Alert> The reason the hikers pitched their tent on the ridge?  (Read 2937 times)

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February 05, 2021, 08:06:49 AM
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eurocentric

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SPOILER ALERT do not read this thread if you would prefer to read the new book first. Scroll down if you don't mind reading a potential spoiler.























Previously I thought the fear of encountering escapees or an angry deerhunter had driven them up there, but now there's a new and more understandable potential reason revealed in the book. Geologists busily conducting a magnetic anomaly survey using helicopters, and the use of explosives to clear any areas of interest for subsequent core-hole drilling in the search for uranium.

The two previous investigative reasons for pitching the tent on the ridge seemed illogical. Igor would not take his group up the pass at 3pm if hoping to crest the ridge and drop down the other side to camp in a forest there (and then he has to fall back due to high winds). It was sundown at 4:29pm and he would choose to do this in the morning. And you wouldn't attain/retain altitude on the Ural ridge en route to Otorten unless you went prepared with 2 day's worth of firewood, or you'd have to descend to get some. This significant amount of wood would then be referenced in the case files and used as evidence of their plan.

The book suggests the hikers died in the forest, and then 4 reenactors travelled up and down slope using a sled to carry the tent, contents, 18+ pairs of skis and poles, to stage the tent on the ridge, expanding the trench of what had been a labaz made there by the hikers into a tent trench, doing so under cover of darkness.

It seems inconceivable that the rescue team, including people who followed animal tracks for a livelihood, would be fooled by the directionality of 4 sets of bare-footed footprints heading up and down a mountain and assume they were the '8 or 9' sets of hiker prints all heading down slope. Or that reenactors, as they are called, would survive frostbite to their toes on any night through the duplication of the hikers 1 mile transit, and survive in subzero temperatures from the exhaustion of expanding a labaz trench into just inside of a 12x6 tent trench, and removing the original contents to take them back down slope. And after all, why wouldn't they deploy the geologists' helicopter for the task.

But now there is a more obvious explanation for why the hikers may have chosen to 'head for the hills' - they arrived at that pass mid afternoon, looking to find somewhere to pitch their tent, in a forest, it was still daylight, and all this activity and its dangers was there. They would also hesitate to search for adequate firewood with this going on. So, late in the day, unplanned and unprepared, they headed to higher ground, somewhere up safe, away from the danger zone, and also where they could be seen.

And having camped on the ridge and the wind picking up, stated in the book to be up to 35 metres-per-second (that's 78mph), and temperatures producing an arctic -63C wind chill, it seems obvious what happens thereafter, and they end up in the forest later that evening when the activity is safely over, minus their tent, tools and clothes.


« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:19:04 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 09:39:04 AM
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Nigel Evans


« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:19:17 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 10:09:11 AM
Reply #2

eurocentric

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The inevitable effects of hypothermia of course, in a tent exposed up on a mountain ridge, with high winds picking up so that it must be dropped/becomes damaged, and out of that no stove is operational.

The self same reason the reenactors, if that is what happened, would walk away in their bare feet, because even in 1959 they would know how people can behave when subjected to extreme cold.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:19:27 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 10:23:14 AM
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Nigel Evans


So Semyon and Nicolai are outside having a stroll, six in the tent are in an advanced state of hypothermia except for Rustem who chooses to wear one boot but not the other.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:19:35 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 10:27:15 AM
Reply #4

eurocentric

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Why would Semyon and Tibo be having a stroll outside in a meterologically estimated 78mph winds and -63C wind chill?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:19:41 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 11:17:21 AM
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ash73



But now there is a more obvious explanation for why the hikers may have chosen to 'head for the hills' - they arrived at that pass mid afternoon, looking to find somewhere to pitch their tent, in a forest, it was still daylight, and all this activity and its dangers was there. They would also hesitate to search for adequate firewood with this going on. So, late in the day, unplanned and unprepared, they headed to higher ground, somewhere up safe, away from the danger zone, and also where they could be seen.

And having camped on the ridge and the wind picking up, stated in the book to be up to 35 metres-per-second (that's 78mph), and temperatures producing an arctic -63C wind chill, it seems obvious what happens thereafter, and they end up in the forest later that evening when the activity is safely over, minus their tent, tools and clothes.

Wouldn't it be safer just to camp outside the test area in the forest? The risk assessment of camping on an exposed hillside would still be the same. I guess I can imagine them wanting to push on.

But if they did camp on the hill and walk barefoot and unequipped to the forest, having lost their senses due to hyperthermia, they wouldn't have been in a state to do much work. And their injuries suggest they'd been in a fight.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:19:49 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 12:03:33 PM
Reply #6
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Nigel Evans


Why would Semyon and Tibo be having a stroll outside in a meterologically estimated 78mph winds and -63C wind chill?


It's a fact that they were outside (dressed and footsteps). The temperature is conjecture.




Electric discharge generates heat.....
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:19:55 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 12:05:15 PM
Reply #7
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Nigel Evans


As Ash points out they were capable of tasks at the cedar.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:02 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 12:28:44 PM
Reply #8

eurocentric

Guest

But now there is a more obvious explanation for why the hikers may have chosen to 'head for the hills' - they arrived at that pass mid afternoon, looking to find somewhere to pitch their tent, in a forest, it was still daylight, and all this activity and its dangers was there. They would also hesitate to search for adequate firewood with this going on. So, late in the day, unplanned and unprepared, they headed to higher ground, somewhere up safe, away from the danger zone, and also where they could be seen.

And having camped on the ridge and the wind picking up, stated in the book to be up to 35 metres-per-second (that's 78mph), and temperatures producing an arctic -63C wind chill, it seems obvious what happens thereafter, and they end up in the forest later that evening when the activity is safely over, minus their tent, tools and clothes.

Wouldn't it be safer just to camp outside the test area in the forest? The risk assessment of camping on an exposed hillside would still be the same. I guess I can imagine them wanting to push on.

But if they did camp on the hill and walk barefoot and unequipped to the forest, having lost their senses due to hyperthermia, they wouldn't have been in a state to do much work. And their injuries suggest they'd been in a fight.

I'd say not, not when at lower elevation and as the day set in, in deteriorating weather, and with little way of communicating with these men, especially if they were actually dropping dynamite from the helicopter. The risk of being injured still applies, so heading to higher ground, above the treeline, becomes your best defence.

The book inadvertently provides the first logical reason for the hikers pitching up there, ironically so given it was trying to suggest 4 part-moonwalking men did it, and this fooled the rescue team, who had even felt able to determine the tallest hiker walked at the back, which would be from shoe size and snow depression.

Once they're up there people can work out numerous ideas of what happens next, as this forum always has, but in those estimated weather conditions surely hypothermia has to be an element, even if not the whole explanation, for why they left. Once in the shelter of the forest, and because they wouldn't all be equally affected, and from the warmth of a fire estimated to have burned 1.5hrs (log thickness) they are able to do things, but the end result is always going to be the same through exhaustion, different stamina levels and physiologies, and varying degrees of clothing insulation, which they desperately supplement where possible.

As regards the suggestion they had been fighting, something I've read here since I first visited this forum, and accepted and even reproduced in my posts, I'm doubtful that was ever the case. The autopsies did not suggest these knuckle injuries were indicative of a fight, it's this site in the autopsy section, where it states "metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone."
 
I think it will be tastefully okay for me to reproduce a cropped colourised image of Igor's hands as example. He was right-sided and his hand was found sticking above the snow. There are unbroken contusions, erythema there, but when people fight they typically break the skin of the knuckles and there's some bleeding. Yet not a single knuckle is affected and his leading knuckle isn't as bad as the others. Only one hand is affected, yet it's commonly suggested he'd been fighting with both hands, as if for his life.


« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:10 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 12:33:48 PM
Reply #9

eurocentric

Guest
Why would Semyon and Tibo be having a stroll outside in a meterologically estimated 78mph winds and -63C wind chill?


It's a fact that they were outside (dressed and footsteps). The temperature is conjecture.




Electric discharge generates heat.....

A fact? Where is the case-file evidence they were outside? That can only be an assumption made because they were better dressed, but so was Zina  and she'd be inside. They should all have been fully dressed inside an unheated tent in those conditions, the fact they weren't, and dressed to varying levels, introduces the risk of hypothermia in the least insulated.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:19 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 01:11:23 PM
Reply #10
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Nigel Evans


Why would Semyon and Tibo be having a stroll outside in a meterologically estimated 78mph winds and -63C wind chill?


It's a fact that they were outside (dressed and footsteps). The temperature is conjecture.




Electric discharge generates heat.....

A fact? Where is the case-file evidence they were outside? That can only be an assumption made because they were better dressed, but so was Zina  and she'd be inside. They should all have been fully dressed inside an unheated tent in those conditions, the fact they weren't, and dressed to varying levels, introduces the risk of hypothermia in the least insulated.


The case files state that two pairs of footsteps joined the main group down the slope.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:26 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 02:09:21 PM
Reply #11
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ash73


I think it will be tastefully okay for me to reproduce a cropped colourised image of Igor's hands as example. He was right-sided and his hand was found sticking above the snow. There are unbroken contusions, erythema there, but when people fight they typically break the skin of the knuckles and there's some bleeding. Yet not a single knuckle is affected and his leading knuckle isn't as bad as the others. Only one hand is affected, yet it's commonly suggested he'd been fighting with both hands, as if for his life.

How would they injure their knuckles though? Any theory needs to explain that, imo.

I expect it's common for people who aren't experienced fighters to only throw punches with their dominant hand. Yuri's knuckles on his right hand were injured, was he right handed too? Rustem had bruised knuckles on both hands, Zinaida had a large bruise from a baton shaped object, Igor's ankle injuries suggest he'd been tied up, several of them had injuries to their faces consistent with being punched. I'm a bit surprised Zinaida had injuries on her knuckles though, without meaning to be sexist I doubt a girl could punch that hard.

None of the victims found near the den had injured knuckles, if anything I'd expect them to have more injured hands from digging out the den, if there wasn't a fight.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:34 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 03:14:01 PM
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sarapuk

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Wouldnt it be better to have a separate section in this Forum to discuss Igor and Teddys new book  ! ?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:40 PM by Teddy »
DB
 

February 05, 2021, 04:10:11 PM
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Whatever happened it is unlikely that it happened on the ridge.  The forest makes much more sense.  The major traumas of the rav 4 probably happened at the same time from the Same event.  They probably died before the others.   Hence the lower number of superficial injuries and frost bite.   Those who lived longer attained their superficial injuries and frost bite in their struggle to survive following the event?.

I haven't read the book yet so am puzzled as to why geologists would be dropping dynamite from a helicopter to look for magnetic anomalies or clear the way to drill core samples, but will try to understand when I read the book.

Regards

Star man
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:46 PM by Teddy »
 

February 05, 2021, 11:59:02 PM
Reply #14
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Nigel Evans


Whatever happened it is unlikely that it happened on the ridge.  The forest makes much more sense.  The major traumas of the rav 4 probably happened at the same time from the Same event.  They probably died before the others.   Hence the lower number of superficial injuries and frost bite.   Those who lived longer attained their superficial injuries and frost bite in their struggle to survive following the event?.

I haven't read the book yet so am puzzled as to why geologists would be dropping dynamite from a helicopter to look for magnetic anomalies or clear the way to drill core samples, but will try to understand when I read the book.

Regards

Star man


The book doesn't state helicopters were used. This is eurocentric's desperate attempt to explain the eagle photo.  kewl1



« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:20:53 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 12:00:38 AM
Reply #15
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Nigel Evans


Wouldnt it be better to have a separate section in this Forum to discuss Igor and Teddys new book  ! ?


It should be in a separate section.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:00 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 12:17:23 AM
Reply #16
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Nigel Evans


I think it will be tastefully okay for me to reproduce a cropped colourised image of Igor's hands as example. He was right-sided and his hand was found sticking above the snow. There are unbroken contusions, erythema there, but when people fight they typically break the skin of the knuckles and there's some bleeding. Yet not a single knuckle is affected and his leading knuckle isn't as bad as the others. Only one hand is affected, yet it's commonly suggested he'd been fighting with both hands, as if for his life.

How would they injure their knuckles though? Any theory needs to explain that, imo.

I expect it's common for people who aren't experienced fighters to only throw punches with their dominant hand. Yuri's knuckles on his right hand were injured, was he right handed too? Rustem had bruised knuckles on both hands, Zinaida had a large bruise from a baton shaped object, Igor's ankle injuries suggest he'd been tied up, several of them had injuries to their faces consistent with being punched. I'm a bit surprised Zinaida had injuries on her knuckles though, without meaning to be sexist I doubt a girl could punch that hard.

None of the victims found near the den had injured knuckles, if anything I'd expect them to have more injured hands from digging out the den, if there wasn't a fight.


Yes i'd agree, there's asymmetry wrt the hand and face injuries between the ravine four and the others. Zinaida had a nasty gash on her hand and a face half covered in bleeding "abrasions". I've posited before that if an exploding missile was involved then a cloud of hypergolic fuel and lightweight fragments of metal travelling at speed could explain a lot of the injuries including the burns. They would raise their hands to protect their faces but Igor and Zinaida were too slow. YuriK has marks on his left thigh of a similar pattern to Igor's face.


Igor's ankles can be explained as stumbling through bracken type undergrowth hidden by snow. His raised arms posture is classic rigor mortis,  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis captured by freezing.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:07 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 01:45:17 AM
Reply #17

eurocentric

Guest
Wouldnt it be better to have a separate section in this Forum to discuss Igor and Teddys new book  ! ?

I agree, but I am not able to do that?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:14 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 01:54:42 AM
Reply #18

eurocentric

Guest
I think it will be tastefully okay for me to reproduce a cropped colourised image of Igor's hands as example. He was right-sided and his hand was found sticking above the snow. There are unbroken contusions, erythema there, but when people fight they typically break the skin of the knuckles and there's some bleeding. Yet not a single knuckle is affected and his leading knuckle isn't as bad as the others. Only one hand is affected, yet it's commonly suggested he'd been fighting with both hands, as if for his life.

How would they injure their knuckles though? Any theory needs to explain that, imo.

I expect it's common for people who aren't experienced fighters to only throw punches with their dominant hand. Yuri's knuckles on his right hand were injured, was he right handed too? Rustem had bruised knuckles on both hands, Zinaida had a large bruise from a baton shaped object, Igor's ankle injuries suggest he'd been tied up, several of them had injuries to their faces consistent with being punched. I'm a bit surprised Zinaida had injuries on her knuckles though, without meaning to be sexist I doubt a girl could punch that hard.

None of the victims found near the den had injured knuckles, if anything I'd expect them to have more injured hands from digging out the den, if there wasn't a fight.

How they came by their injuries is largely irrelevant. What matters most is why they pitched where they did and why they left, and without taking what they needed to survive when facing near certain death otherwise, and, with the risk of explosives in forests, I'm suggesting we now have a logical starting point for why they pitched up there.

It's only to be expected that when 9 people, instead of being able to huddle together to conserve their energy and get through the night in freezing temperatures and high winds, are instead forced to expend all their energy until completely exhausted, that they will collect a series of injuries along the way as opposed to being found frozen to death without a mark on them.

The nature of the injuries tends to throw up wild interpretations, which the pathologist did not suggest or make part of his conclusion. For example mention of a deformed neck is often taken to mean broken. Deformed is not the same as fracture. It could, for example, be due to a history of malnutrition, or a previous problem with vertebrae and healing. Aleksander's younger ID photo's appear to show a potential problem with his jaw too.

People also suggest a loose hyoid bone must indicate foul play, but every bone is held in position by tissues, the skeleton is not one contiguous array of self-supporting framework, so when the connective tissues, tendons, muscles, all attaching to bone has rotted away, as happened with Lyuda's oral cavity, the lingual bone will have little support left. The pathologist does not suggest this indicated murder, he does not even mention it in his conclusions, and he does not state it was fractured, as with the case of Jeffrey Epstein.

Typical resus fractures are focused on exactly the same ribs as two hikers had broken. The problem is a pathologist only sees the ones where open fractures penetrate the heart or lungs, whereas an orthopaedic will see thousands more examples of people who survive with the same injuries, and out of that be aware of a greater variety of ways they come by such injuries.

Igor using his legs to grip trees during climbing and reaching to cut branches would cause marks around his ankles. Elderly people who are bedridden get the same from crossing their ankles in bed. Had he been restrained by his ankles then surely his wrists would need restraint too and show similar marks.

Igor's knuckles could either be from a brief skirmish, perhaps with Yuri K, or a consequence of that hand being most exposed to the elements for several weeks above snow. There are medical conditions which can affect the knuckles without breaking the skin, particularly herpes-related, which can flare up when someone's immune system is under stress in a cold environment, in the same way holiday skiiers go down with cold sores. I myself get flare-ups of a condition called erythema multiforme which affects my knuckles, making it appear I've been in a fight, though both hands are affected.

The other two were found face/side down and appear to have been crawling. I can't see Rustem fighting like a UFC pro anymore than I can Zina to be honest. They may have adopted a technique of using their fists, in order to save their fingers from frostbite, and drawn their hands either to the side, or down their chest to their navel, while pushing up the snow with their feet, where the lower half of their body takes the greatest weight due to the slope, because that is how people sometimes crawl.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2021, 03:07:36 AM by eurocentric »
 

February 06, 2021, 01:55:57 AM
Reply #19

eurocentric

Guest
Why would Semyon and Tibo be having a stroll outside in a meterologically estimated 78mph winds and -63C wind chill?


It's a fact that they were outside (dressed and footsteps). The temperature is conjecture.




Electric discharge generates heat.....

A fact? Where is the case-file evidence they were outside? That can only be an assumption made because they were better dressed, but so was Zina  and she'd be inside. They should all have been fully dressed inside an unheated tent in those conditions, the fact they weren't, and dressed to varying levels, introduces the risk of hypothermia in the least insulated.


The case files state that two pairs of footsteps joined the main group down the slope.

I read the case files. It did not confirm two peoples' tracks walked away from the tent, but that two separate groups did so, before these two parties converged into one single file. It also did not attribute any footprints outside the tent, of which there were many from the trench digging and tent erection, of factually being those of Semyon and Tibo.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:23 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 02:00:10 AM
Reply #20

eurocentric

Guest
Whatever happened it is unlikely that it happened on the ridge.  The forest makes much more sense.  The major traumas of the rav 4 probably happened at the same time from the Same event.  They probably died before the others.   Hence the lower number of superficial injuries and frost bite.   Those who lived longer attained their superficial injuries and frost bite in their struggle to survive following the event?.

I haven't read the book yet so am puzzled as to why geologists would be dropping dynamite from a helicopter to look for magnetic anomalies or clear the way to drill core samples, but will try to understand when I read the book.

Regards

Star man

The book does not make that particular point.

The book does suggest geologists used explosives, and references an example where someone almost died after straying into an area where tree stumps had been loaded with explosives. They need to clear areas for prospecting, after detected anomalies indicate mineral deposits are beneath the ground. The technology is used for all manner of things, including finding UXB's.

And in answer to the million dollar question about the book made by a new poster the other day, who wanted clarification on the connection between the stated cause of death (what insurers would call an act of God) and the motive for a locally organised cover-up, Teddy replied that there'd be craters (in the forest).


« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:29 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 02:03:55 AM
Reply #21

eurocentric

Guest
Whatever happened it is unlikely that it happened on the ridge.  The forest makes much more sense.  The major traumas of the rav 4 probably happened at the same time from the Same event.  They probably died before the others.   Hence the lower number of superficial injuries and frost bite.   Those who lived longer attained their superficial injuries and frost bite in their struggle to survive following the event?.

I haven't read the book yet so am puzzled as to why geologists would be dropping dynamite from a helicopter to look for magnetic anomalies or clear the way to drill core samples, but will try to understand when I read the book.

Regards

Star man


The book doesn't state helicopters were used. This is eurocentric's desperate attempt to explain the eagle photo.  kewl1

You must have missed the bits about the sky being so observedly busy with the things that it's suggested the last 3 hikers tried to get to the crest of 1079 to raise the alarm over their trapped comrades, or how geologists transported the bodies in sample crates to be washed at the local morgue, using helicopters, etc. When I asked Teddy in her teaser thread ahead of publication if the whirlies were used she confirmed "they played a key role too".

« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:36 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 06:29:45 AM
Reply #22
Offline

Nigel Evans


Why would Semyon and Tibo be having a stroll outside in a meterologically estimated 78mph winds and -63C wind chill?


It's a fact that they were outside (dressed and footsteps). The temperature is conjecture.




Electric discharge generates heat.....

A fact? Where is the case-file evidence they were outside? That can only be an assumption made because they were better dressed, but so was Zina  and she'd be inside. They should all have been fully dressed inside an unheated tent in those conditions, the fact they weren't, and dressed to varying levels, introduces the risk of hypothermia in the least insulated.


The case files state that two pairs of footsteps joined the main group down the slope.

I read the case files. It did not confirm two peoples' tracks walked away from the tent, but that two separate groups did so, before these two parties converged into one single file. It also did not attribute any footprints outside the tent, of which there were many from the trench digging and tent erection, of factually being those of Semyon and Tibo.
I'm fairly sure there's an observation of footsteps converging on the main group having not originally at the tent. And i think we can safely assume they weren't strolling in their socks. So identifying them as S+T is extremely reasonable.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:43 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 06:33:34 AM
Reply #23
Offline

Nigel Evans


Whatever happened it is unlikely that it happened on the ridge.  The forest makes much more sense.  The major traumas of the rav 4 probably happened at the same time from the Same event.  They probably died before the others.   Hence the lower number of superficial injuries and frost bite.   Those who lived longer attained their superficial injuries and frost bite in their struggle to survive following the event?.

I haven't read the book yet so am puzzled as to why geologists would be dropping dynamite from a helicopter to look for magnetic anomalies or clear the way to drill core samples, but will try to understand when I read the book.

Regards

Star man


The book doesn't state helicopters were used. This is eurocentric's desperate attempt to explain the eagle photo.  kewl1

You must have missed the bits about the sky being so observedly busy with the things that it's suggested the last 3 hikers tried to get to the crest of 1079 to raise the alarm over their trapped comrades, or how geologists transported the bodies in sample crates to be washed at the local morgue, using helicopters, etc. When I asked Teddy in her teaser thread ahead of publication if the whirlies were used she confirmed "they played a key role too".
Oh i didn't know that helicopters were used to transport the bodies. I thought they put them on the train at the local train station. Discussing the case with you is an education....
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:51 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 11:26:26 AM
Reply #24
Offline

KFinn



But now there is a more obvious explanation for why the hikers may have chosen to 'head for the hills' - they arrived at that pass mid afternoon, looking to find somewhere to pitch their tent, in a forest, it was still daylight, and all this activity and its dangers was there. They would also hesitate to search for adequate firewood with this going on. So, late in the day, unplanned and unprepared, they headed to higher ground, somewhere up safe, away from the danger zone, and also where they could be seen.

And having camped on the ridge and the wind picking up, stated in the book to be up to 35 metres-per-second (that's 78mph), and temperatures producing an arctic -63C wind chill, it seems obvious what happens thereafter, and they end up in the forest later that evening when the activity is safely over, minus their tent, tools and clothes.

Wouldn't it be safer just to camp outside the test area in the forest? The risk assessment of camping on an exposed hillside would still be the same. I guess I can imagine them wanting to push on.

But if they did camp on the hill and walk barefoot and unequipped to the forest, having lost their senses due to hyperthermia, they wouldn't have been in a state to do much work. And their injuries suggest they'd been in a fight.

I'd say not, not when at lower elevation and as the day set in, in deteriorating weather, and with little way of communicating with these men, especially if they were actually dropping dynamite from the helicopter. The risk of being injured still applies, so heading to higher ground, above the treeline, becomes your best defence.

The book inadvertently provides the first logical reason for the hikers pitching up there, ironically so given it was trying to suggest 4 part-moonwalking men did it, and this fooled the rescue team, who had even felt able to determine the tallest hiker walked at the back, which would be from shoe size and snow depression.

Once they're up there people can work out numerous ideas of what happens next, as this forum always has, but in those estimated weather conditions surely hypothermia has to be an element, even if not the whole explanation, for why they left. Once in the shelter of the forest, and because they wouldn't all be equally affected, and from the warmth of a fire estimated to have burned 1.5hrs (log thickness) they are able to do things, but the end result is always going to be the same through exhaustion, different stamina levels and physiologies, and varying degrees of clothing insulation, which they desperately supplement where possible.

As regards the suggestion they had been fighting, something I've read here since I first visited this forum, and accepted and even reproduced in my posts, I'm doubtful that was ever the case. The autopsies did not suggest these knuckle injuries were indicative of a fight, it's this site in the autopsy section, where it states "metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone."
 
I think it will be tastefully okay for me to reproduce a cropped colourised image of Igor's hands as example. He was right-sided and his hand was found sticking above the snow. There are unbroken contusions, erythema there, but when people fight they typically break the skin of the knuckles and there's some bleeding. Yet not a single knuckle is affected and his leading knuckle isn't as bad as the others. Only one hand is affected, yet it's commonly suggested he'd been fighting with both hands, as if for his life.



I completely agree, regarding the injuries.  As someone who camps and hikes, a lot, and as someone who is disabled and falls on these camping and hiking trips, a lot, I've come home sometimes looking like I went three rounds with Mike Tyson.  If they were already suffering from the fatigue and exhaustion of the hike, compiled by the lack of coordination and other cold related physical issues, they were falling and crawling at times.  When you are desperately cold, your extremities pull in closer to your body.  You fall, you land on your knuckles and faces. 
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:21:58 PM by Teddy »
-Ren
 

February 06, 2021, 03:10:56 PM
Reply #25
Offline

ash73


If they camped on the ridge to avoid the risk of explosives, why would they go to the same area later on, in the dark? If they were suffering from hyperthermia, why leave their clothes behind? If they planned to make a fire, why leave cutting tools behind?

It's possible they camped there to avoid some danger, but it doesn't explain anything other than they got cold which makes their actions even more inexplicable - if they lost their minds due to hyperthermia how did they do so much work in the trees?

Their injuries are among the few trustworthy facts and must be explained. Crawling on fists doesn't explain face injuries. If they fell, they'd injure their palms. If Rustem died first, why were his hands injured? Why were those in the den different?

I find it interesting the pathologist said the bruising happened 1-2 days before they died, and there were no more diary entries during that period... I think this was a lot more drawn out than just reacting to what they saw while hiking that afternoon.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:22:06 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 05:08:06 PM
Reply #26
Offline

Manti


If geologists were surveying for uranium deposits, they would use radiation detectors (scintillation chambers) in a helicopter or plane. This method was used from the '40s. Then they would drill cores into the ground to get more precise data but this is dangerous because radon gas and/or contaminated groundwater can come up... and needs equipment like a drill, trucks to transport it there and take the cores for analysis, so there would be vehicle tracks.
They would not be dropping explosives from a helicopter or putting them on tree trunks, how does that achieve anything? Is this in the book?
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:22:14 PM by Teddy »
 

February 06, 2021, 05:21:26 PM
Reply #27
Offline

Mark II


« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:22:20 PM by Teddy »
 

February 07, 2021, 03:52:34 AM
Reply #28
Offline

Nigel Evans


If geologists were surveying for uranium deposits, they would use radiation detectors (scintillation chambers) in a helicopter or plane. This method was used from the '40s. Then they would drill cores into the ground to get more precise data but this is dangerous because radon gas and/or contaminated groundwater can come up... and needs equipment like a drill, trucks to transport it there and take the cores for analysis, so there would be vehicle tracks.
They would not be dropping explosives from a helicopter or putting them on tree trunks, how does that achieve anything? Is this in the book?


Attaching explosives to trees is in the book.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:22:31 PM by Teddy »
 

February 07, 2021, 04:37:16 AM
Reply #29

eurocentric

Guest
If they camped on the ridge to avoid the risk of explosives, why would they go to the same area later on, in the dark? If they were suffering from hyperthermia, why leave their clothes behind? If they planned to make a fire, why leave cutting tools behind?

It's possible they camped there to avoid some danger, but it doesn't explain anything other than they got cold which makes their actions even more inexplicable - if they lost their minds due to hyperthermia how did they do so much work in the trees?

Their injuries are among the few trustworthy facts and must be explained. Crawling on fists doesn't explain face injuries. If they fell, they'd injure their palms. If Rustem died first, why were his hands injured? Why were those in the den different?

I find it interesting the pathologist said the bruising happened 1-2 days before they died, and there were no more diary entries during that period... I think this was a lot more drawn out than just reacting to what they saw while hiking that afternoon.

I've illustrated how there can be alternative explanations for some of their injuries, even though that to me is not what is most important unless the injuries were truly suspicious. To use the injuries as a starting point and then work backwards is a fundamental mistake IMO. I think it requires resolving the starting point.

If an old lady lived alone and didn't normally use the stairs but was found dead at the foot of them, she'd banged her head, gashed her brittle skin and broken her wrist and had a lot of bruising, a couple of bannister rails broken, her death would be described at autopsy as 'violent'. It was not a natural death. People would not then focus on her injuries, unless suspicious or there were signs of a third party being present, they would instead wonder what she was doing up there, and why she was dressed only in her underwear with the central heating off and with only one slipper on. Accepting that she was up there and dressed like that makes the injuries almost inevitable.

Hypothermia has a number of mental not just physical effects. It affects cognition and it renders people amnesiac. And physically it can make them either remove clothing or remain underdressed if that was their pre-existing situation. The tent on the ridge, with wind chill rising, would be an extremely exposed place, but the group would not all be affected to the same level.

Once the hikers recognise some have hypothermia they needed to be brought down off the ridge if the tent/stove is not usable or they would die inside the tent. The whole purpose of descending to the forest would be to recover, to seek shelter within trees, to light a fire with the fuel there, and later on the perceived danger may have gone or by then they had no choice but to take the risk.

The least affected would initiate this evacuation and recovery attempt, and the core temperatures of others may have recovered slightly while there, but there is a price to pay for all this activity, once blood sugar energy has gone exhaustion will kill because the body can no longer fuel its own furnace and regulate itself to normal temperature so they end up immobile on the ground to freeze or collapse from heart failure.

« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:22:57 PM by Teddy »