Bears and Yeti

[KFinn]

Because Nigel piqued my curiosity earlier with the book overviews he posted, I was thinking.  As always, please bear with me.  Sometimes I don't find the right words, lol!!

What was the prevalence of bears near Otorten in the late fifties?  I'm not thinking we could be confusing yeti with bears, though.  The brain uses heuristic traits to fill in gaps when we are confronted with something unknown and there is danger.  If I'm in the woods and I am catching glimpses of something large and hairy and I am terrified, my brain uses the clues it has available and says "bear" because that fits what my brain thinks is most likely.  I was always taught to play dead if encountering a bear *or* to run downhill, because the physicality of a bear makes running down hill difficult for them.  Admittedly, I was taught this as a child in the late seventies and early eighties and many of the things we were taught were later proven to be the wrong course of action, lol.  We do get a few bears around here but they are mostly smaller brown bears who are relatively benign other than going through your garbage cans and making a huge mess.  Our bears are pretty shy and run at the first sign of trouble; I watched our local feral mama cat chase a bear out of my yard one night and it was running for its life!  But then, that cat is a mean ole biddy...  At any rate, my personal experience with bears is limited to what we have here and not what may be bigger and more dangerous elsewhere. If the group knew there were bear in the area, saw something close that seemed bear like, it would explain their sudden flight downhill...  Then again, were they taught to run downhill from bears?  It sounded like Yuri D at least was taught to run *at* them...I suppose that could really agitate a yeti and frighten a bunch of hikers crazy when it turned around and wasn't a bear.

Again, I'm trying to understand from a different point of view.  Our bears here are not dangerous but if I saw something big and hairy up in the Urals in winter when bears are supposed to sleep, I'd probably be thinking I was about to be dinner for a really unhappy bear and I'd do the only things I was taught; either play dead and really be dinner or head downhill and hope he doesn't want to work for his meal.

[Nigel Evans]

They left weapons at the tent, ice axe, wood axe and at least one knife? So not a great fit for a large animal threat. But it would explain the ravine injuries as crushed within the den.

[KFinn]

They left weapons at the tent, ice axe, wood axe and at least one knife? So not a great fit for a large animal threat. But it would explain the ravine injuries as crushed within the den.

That makes absolute sense.

I'm trying to go through each theory and understand how it fits into the incident, regardless of what I believe happened.  I'm still very new on the yeti theory.  I've been trying to catch up on the past threads posted but there is a lot to read and analyze.  It's a little more difficult for me than theories that revolve around weather or other more mundane accidents; I tend toward scientific method in my thinking (not that something must be proven using scientific method, just my brain looks at things with one set of logic that sometimes tunes out things that are gray areas.  I don't know if I'm wording this right :(  ). At one point in the past, I set out to try and "solve" this as many do.  I no longer have that goal; I want to understand, certainly, but I also understand that I lack many needed elements, such as what the culture of the time and environment were where this occurred (its very hard to set aside how you've been born and raised.  I'm an American born in the seventies and I have inherent assumptions about life because of that but I recognize that I can't look at an incident in 1959 Soviet Union through my American lens.)  I also lack the resources to really do any extensive research (here, I could send an email to my town secretary for a birth or death record and she'd hand me copies next time I see her out getting coffee, lol!  But again, that is a rural American procedure, much different than Russia.) I also know that I probably will never fully understand the terrain.  While I still hike and camp a lot, that is a hike my body couldn't handle and the expenses involved would be too much.  I'm disabled, sadly.  My one dream in life would be to go oay respects at the Pass, but I know realistically that will not happen.  This all limits me to being an armchair sleuth.  My education and career give me insights into crime and social psychology but otherwise, who am I, an American who has never been there, doesn't have access to anything more than the internet, who has a difficult enough time understanding my own culture let alone the way things worked in Russia in 1959, who am I to claim I have solved this?  That would be an affront to all of the people who have been boots to the ground, relentlessly pursuing justice for the hikers lost and their families.  So, I'm instead trying to understand each theory, understand why it *is* a theory, and to try and have a bigger worldview than I did before.  I'm not going to dismiss anything as fantasy because even though I am very scientific in thinking, there are things that I can not explain in life.  Many people on this forum are very intelligent and have proposed some intelligent possibilities that include things like yeti and UFO's (which do and do not encompass things not of this earth.)  So, I want to give every theory its due and give every theorist here the respect of listening and learning. 

I suppose a good start in understanding the culture differences would be for me to stop using the word yeti and instead use menk...

I apologize for the lengths of my posts.  I have left my house maybe four times in the last year due to the pandemic and normally I see large numbers of friends whereas now, I only see my family.  I'm a bit undersocialized, lol. 

[sarapuk]

Because Nigel piqued my curiosity earlier with the book overviews he posted, I was thinking.  As always, please bear with me.  Sometimes I don't find the right words, lol!!

What was the prevalence of bears near Otorten in the late fifties?  I'm not thinking we could be confusing yeti with bears, though.  The brain uses heuristic traits to fill in gaps when we are confronted with something unknown and there is danger.  If I'm in the woods and I am catching glimpses of something large and hairy and I am terrified, my brain uses the clues it has available and says "bear" because that fits what my brain thinks is most likely.  I was always taught to play dead if encountering a bear *or* to run downhill, because the physicality of a bear makes running down hill difficult for them.  Admittedly, I was taught this as a child in the late seventies and early eighties and many of the things we were taught were later proven to be the wrong course of action, lol.  We do get a few bears around here but they are mostly smaller brown bears who are relatively benign other than going through your garbage cans and making a huge mess.  Our bears are pretty shy and run at the first sign of trouble; I watched our local feral mama cat chase a bear out of my yard one night and it was running for its life!  But then, that cat is a mean ole biddy...  At any rate, my personal experience with bears is limited to what we have here and not what may be bigger and more dangerous elsewhere. If the group knew there were bear in the area, saw something close that seemed bear like, it would explain their sudden flight downhill...  Then again, were they taught to run downhill from bears?  It sounded like Yuri D at least was taught to run *at* them...I suppose that could really agitate a yeti and frighten a bunch of hikers crazy when it turned around and wasn't a bear.

Again, I'm trying to understand from a different point of view.  Our bears here are not dangerous but if I saw something big and hairy up in the Urals in winter when bears are supposed to sleep, I'd probably be thinking I was about to be dinner for a really unhappy bear and I'd do the only things I was taught; either play dead and really be dinner or head downhill and hope he doesn't want to work for his meal.

Well I spoke to my close Russian friend about this Bear business a year or two ago. He comes from Yekaterinburg formerly known as Sverdlovsk. His Brother went to the same College as the Dyatlov Group. My friend did go hiking but not as far as the Dyatlov Group went. I asked him if there were Bears and he said yes. When I asked him if it could have been a Bear that caused the Incident he categorically said no. He said there was no way it was a Bear attack.

[marieuk]

can't say I know much about bears,  living in the UK, but wouldn't there be bite or claw marks?

[KFinn]

I probably did not word this well.  My thought was the group saw menk and thought bear, so they responded as they would if it were a bear.  That would rely on them knowing bear were in the area, because if there are not bears there, they would not think bear, necessarily.  Its an attempt to explain going downhill in the context of the menk theory, if that makes sense? 

[sarapuk]

They left weapons at the tent, ice axe, wood axe and at least one knife? So not a great fit for a large animal threat. But it would explain the ravine injuries as crushed within the den.

That makes absolute sense.

I'm trying to go through each theory and understand how it fits into the incident, regardless of what I believe happened.  I'm still very new on the yeti theory.  I've been trying to catch up on the past threads posted but there is a lot to read and analyze.  It's a little more difficult for me than theories that revolve around weather or other more mundane accidents; I tend toward scientific method in my thinking (not that something must be proven using scientific method, just my brain looks at things with one set of logic that sometimes tunes out things that are gray areas.  I don't know if I'm wording this right :(  ). At one point in the past, I set out to try and "solve" this as many do.  I no longer have that goal; I want to understand, certainly, but I also understand that I lack many needed elements, such as what the culture of the time and environment were where this occurred (its very hard to set aside how you've been born and raised.  I'm an American born in the seventies and I have inherent assumptions about life because of that but I recognize that I can't look at an incident in 1959 Soviet Union through my American lens.)  I also lack the resources to really do any extensive research (here, I could send an email to my town secretary for a birth or death record and she'd hand me copies next time I see her out getting coffee, lol!  But again, that is a rural American procedure, much different than Russia.) I also know that I probably will never fully understand the terrain.  While I still hike and camp a lot, that is a hike my body couldn't handle and the expenses involved would be too much.  I'm disabled, sadly.  My one dream in life would be to go oay respects at the Pass, but I know realistically that will not happen.  This all limits me to being an armchair sleuth.  My education and career give me insights into crime and social psychology but otherwise, who am I, an American who has never been there, doesn't have access to anything more than the internet, who has a difficult enough time understanding my own culture let alone the way things worked in Russia in 1959, who am I to claim I have solved this?  That would be an affront to all of the people who have been boots to the ground, relentlessly pursuing justice for the hikers lost and their families.  So, I'm instead trying to understand each theory, understand why it *is* a theory, and to try and have a bigger worldview than I did before.  I'm not going to dismiss anything as fantasy because even though I am very scientific in thinking, there are things that I can not explain in life.  Many people on this forum are very intelligent and have proposed some intelligent possibilities that include things like yeti and UFO's (which do and do not encompass things not of this earth.)  So, I want to give every theory its due and give every theorist here the respect of listening and learning. 

I suppose a good start in understanding the culture differences would be for me to stop using the word yeti and instead use menk...

I apologize for the lengths of my posts.  I have left my house maybe four times in the last year due to the pandemic and normally I see large numbers of friends whereas now, I only see my family.  I'm a bit undersocialized, lol.

I think thats all most of us can do these days. Here in Britain its in and out of Lockdowns and Border closures. And the Internet has certainly changed the World, or rather should I say people using the Internet are changing the World. Ive always considered the Russians has having an untrustworthy view of the West. Since I got to know my friend Dmitry 10 years ago, my view hasnt really changed much. Its nothing personal, people are good and bad in any Nationality, its more to do with Authority. And that means that the Russian Authorities having viewed the West as untrustworthy for so long, it rubs off in to the National Psyche,  if thats the best way to put it.

[sarapuk]

I probably did not word this well.  My thought was the group saw menk and thought bear, so they responded as they would if it were a bear.  That would rely on them knowing bear were in the area, because if there are not bears there, they would not think bear, necessarily.  Its an attempt to explain going downhill in the context of the menk theory, if that makes sense?

Well Bear or Menk, I think if I saw either in that situation I would be scared and run away. No point trying to stay and reason with the creature that may see you as food or just a threat.

[marieuk]

I probably did not word this well.  My thought was the group saw menk and thought bear, so they responded as they would if it were a bear.  That would rely on them knowing bear were in the area, because if there are not bears there, they would not think bear, necessarily.  Its an attempt to explain going downhill in the context of the menk theory, if that makes sense? 

My apologies.  I'm sure you worded it fine.  It's been a long week and it's only Wednesday.

[KFinn]

I probably did not word this well.  My thought was the group saw menk and thought bear, so they responded as they would if it were a bear.  That would rely on them knowing bear were in the area, because if there are not bears there, they would not think bear, necessarily.  Its an attempt to explain going downhill in the context of the menk theory, if that makes sense? 

My apologies.  I'm sure you worded it fine.  It's been a long week and it's only Wednesday.

I hope your week gets better!!

I sometimes (okay, more often than not) stumble when trying to explain a thing, especially when I can't use my hands to gesture, lol.  Some of it is neurological so I often try to ascertain if I have actually said what I thought I said.  And I never take offense when rewording anything.  The typed word is not the best form of communication in many ways but we keep learning and evolving :) 

[KFinn]

They left weapons at the tent, ice axe, wood axe and at least one knife? So not a great fit for a large animal threat. But it would explain the ravine injuries as crushed within the den.

That makes absolute sense.

I'm trying to go through each theory and understand how it fits into the incident, regardless of what I believe happened.  I'm still very new on the yeti theory.  I've been trying to catch up on the past threads posted but there is a lot to read and analyze.  It's a little more difficult for me than theories that revolve around weather or other more mundane accidents; I tend toward scientific method in my thinking (not that something must be proven using scientific method, just my brain looks at things with one set of logic that sometimes tunes out things that are gray areas.  I don't know if I'm wording this right :(  ). At one point in the past, I set out to try and "solve" this as many do.  I no longer have that goal; I want to understand, certainly, but I also understand that I lack many needed elements, such as what the culture of the time and environment were where this occurred (its very hard to set aside how you've been born and raised.  I'm an American born in the seventies and I have inherent assumptions about life because of that but I recognize that I can't look at an incident in 1959 Soviet Union through my American lens.)  I also lack the resources to really do any extensive research (here, I could send an email to my town secretary for a birth or death record and she'd hand me copies next time I see her out getting coffee, lol!  But again, that is a rural American procedure, much different than Russia.) I also know that I probably will never fully understand the terrain.  While I still hike and camp a lot, that is a hike my body couldn't handle and the expenses involved would be too much.  I'm disabled, sadly.  My one dream in life would be to go oay respects at the Pass, but I know realistically that will not happen.  This all limits me to being an armchair sleuth.  My education and career give me insights into crime and social psychology but otherwise, who am I, an American who has never been there, doesn't have access to anything more than the internet, who has a difficult enough time understanding my own culture let alone the way things worked in Russia in 1959, who am I to claim I have solved this?  That would be an affront to all of the people who have been boots to the ground, relentlessly pursuing justice for the hikers lost and their families.  So, I'm instead trying to understand each theory, understand why it *is* a theory, and to try and have a bigger worldview than I did before.  I'm not going to dismiss anything as fantasy because even though I am very scientific in thinking, there are things that I can not explain in life.  Many people on this forum are very intelligent and have proposed some intelligent possibilities that include things like yeti and UFO's (which do and do not encompass things not of this earth.)  So, I want to give every theory its due and give every theorist here the respect of listening and learning. 

I suppose a good start in understanding the culture differences would be for me to stop using the word yeti and instead use menk...

I apologize for the lengths of my posts.  I have left my house maybe four times in the last year due to the pandemic and normally I see large numbers of friends whereas now, I only see my family.  I'm a bit undersocialized, lol.

I think thats all most of us can do these days. Here in Britain its in and out of Lockdowns and Border closures. And the Internet has certainly changed the World, or rather should I say people using the Internet are changing the World. Ive always considered the Russians has having an untrustworthy view of the West. Since I got to know my friend Dmitry 10 years ago, my view hasnt really changed much. Its nothing personal, people are good and bad in any Nationality, its more to do with Authority. And that means that the Russian Authorities having viewed the West as untrustworthy for so long, it rubs off in to the National Psyche,  if thats the best way to put it.

Absolutely!!  As a child, we were taught that the Soviet Union was bad and American democracy was good.  All of our movies and television shows and such supported that.  As an adult, I've never run a large country or union of countries.  I can't say either is good or bad just...different and too complex for me to label with a value.  Both of our governments have a history of cover-ups and corruption. 

But, I know I've led us far away from the original topic, lol. 

[marieuk]

I probably did not word this well.  My thought was the group saw menk and thought bear, so they responded as they would if it were a bear.  That would rely on them knowing bear were in the area, because if there are not bears there, they would not think bear, necessarily.  Its an attempt to explain going downhill in the context of the menk theory, if that makes sense? 

My apologies.  I'm sure you worded it fine.  It's been a long week and it's only Wednesday.

I hope your week gets better!!

I sometimes (okay, more often than not) stumble when trying to explain a thing, especially when I can't use my hands to gesture, lol.  Some of it is neurological so I often try to ascertain if I have actually said what I thought I said.  And I never take offense when rewording anything.  The typed word is not the best form of communication in many ways but we keep learning and evolving :) 

Thank you very much.  It's just been busy really, not anything to complain about. Finding justice/answers for what happened is important to me too, although I'm not sure why.  I'm slowly reading through Teddy's book so maybe that will help. 

[sarapuk]

I probably did not word this well.  My thought was the group saw menk and thought bear, so they responded as they would if it were a bear.  That would rely on them knowing bear were in the area, because if there are not bears there, they would not think bear, necessarily.  Its an attempt to explain going downhill in the context of the menk theory, if that makes sense? 

My apologies.  I'm sure you worded it fine.  It's been a long week and it's only Wednesday.

I hope your week gets better!!

I sometimes (okay, more often than not) stumble when trying to explain a thing, especially when I can't use my hands to gesture, lol.  Some of it is neurological so I often try to ascertain if I have actually said what I thought I said.  And I never take offense when rewording anything.  The typed word is not the best form of communication in many ways but we keep learning and evolving :) 

Thank you very much.  It's just been busy really, not anything to complain about. Finding justice/answers for what happened is important to me too, although I'm not sure why.  I'm slowly reading through Teddy's book so maybe that will help.

The more you delve into this mystery the more you get hooked.

[marieuk]

Yes, you're right.  I'm definitely hooked and the more I  read the more complicated it seems to get