Maslennikov Notebook Question on Search Camp

[KFinn]

Further to my last post #24, i almost forgot the best bit of the AET.
Atmospheric electricity may create microwaves. The theory being that all this mechanical energy in swirling winds could vibrate air molecules at high frequencies such as - https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/23418/is-there-an-upper-frequency-limit-to-ultrasound
So if the air molecues are vibrating at MHz aren't the many free electrons also?

If so then you could be creating electromagnetic energy at radar frequencies? (Like is seen in many UFO reports).

So if during Cold War paranoia a country detected a foreign "metal" object on top of a mountain from it's early warning radar it might lob a missile or two at the thing? Maybe using banned or top secret nuclear technology? Then you'd need a coverup ordered from the top?
Vladimir Askenadzi (who found Lyudmila) stated that they were told it was a missile....

Okay, before I wind up reading in the wrong direction on this path...  I am seeing crossover between ultrasound frequencies, atmospheric frequencies, kinetic and electromagnetic energy, temp and humidity and infrasound.  Where your specific post is focusing, does infrasound factor, as well?  I'm pulling up scholarly articles that relate but some of them seem to be focusing more on the infrasound aspect and I don't want to focus in the wrong direction on this specific topic.

Infrasound is sub audible frequencies, less than 20Hz. The microwave theory would need MHz.


http://aquarid.physics.uwo.ca/images/new/source of infrasound.jpg
But it's relevant to the dp - "airflow over mountains".

Perfect!!  Thank you!!

[Manti]

Where is it said that Tempalov believed he saw craters? This is potentially very important and I've never read it before.

As for a nuclear missile, a country will never nuke itself. If something is detected on radar they will send jets there but if it's not moving, I'd expect them to suspect a weather phenomena...

[Nigel Evans]

Where is it said that Tempalov believed he saw craters? This is potentially very important and I've never read it before.
It's in the very fascinating .epub from looo.ch well worth a read imo, partly because of the production quality, partly because he gets the ball lightning theory.

As for a nuclear missile, a country will never nuke itself.
What!? The US and USSR performed hundreds of nuclear tests over their territory?

If something is detected on radar they will send jets there but if it's not moving, I'd expect them to suspect a weather phenomena...
Apparently two Tupolev Bears flew down the Ural's that night.

[KFinn]

Where is it said that Tempalov believed he saw craters? This is potentially very important and I've never read it before.
It's in the very fascinating .epub from looo.ch well worth a read imo, partly because of the production quality, partly because he gets the ball lightning theory.

As for a nuclear missile, a country will never nuke itself.
What!? The US and USSR performed hundreds of nuclear tests over their territory?

If something is detected on radar they will send jets there but if it's not moving, I'd expect them to suspect a weather phenomena...
Apparently two Tupolev Bears flew down the Ural's that night.

Oh yes.  During the test ban treaty we discuss here often, the US continued testing nuclear weapons here on our soil.  We (well, the government,) had no problem with potentially putting its own people into danger for testing anything.  MKUltra, although it gets a bad rap as a conspiracy theory, actually encompassed a couple hundred programs and many of them were tested on US citizens.  I live in a very rural county; back in 1989-1992, our state government wanted to put a nuclear waste dump here (on land my family owns.)  We had a gentleman who had settled here after his retirement.  He was an integral part of the state discussions as, unlike most of the citizens here who were assumed to be less educated (erroneously, we have four colleges here,) this gent was a nuclear scientist who worked on the Manhattan Project.  He gave talks around the county about his work and such in order for our citizens to make informed decisions about which side of the issue they wanted to be on.  Sadly, he died some time ago, but he was rather outspoken against our federal government for how and where they tested weapons.  Of course now, much of it has been released to the public and declassified but yeah, our country had no problem nuking itself. 

[KFinn]

Regarding whether it was 0C or sub -10C snow, the weather even now at the end of February in Ivdel is -28C at night, -14C during the day...
I assume it is colder at the pass. Even if there was a warm front there in '59, I don't think it could have been 0C.


What mechanism are you considering that could have raised the temperature that much, Nigel?

It's the Atmospheric Electricity theory. Basically the snow laden winds crossing the peaks and ridges create horizontally what happens vertically in thunder clouds, i.e. lots of static electricity which then has to go somewhere so there is a discharge into the mountain. Electrical discharge results in heat which warms the ground. This discharge can be slow (heating) or rapid (lightning and ball lightning). The effect is temporary and then the temperatures revert back to normal. Digging the tent into the snow creates a point of discharge into the mountain through insulating snow so that heating effects are observed local to the tent area (sastrugi around and firn snow on tent, level of snow dropped by 1 meter?). Streams have a trickle of water (Rustem's ice bed). Footstep columns are extremely wide and a foot scoops out a long track  (wet snow). Lightning creates burns, ball lightning has mass (half destroyed cedar, Eagle photo and scorched treetops). Electrical discharge creates NO2 which poisons lungs (silo fillers disease). Meltwater causes a ravine slab slide. Curious lack of frostbite.

Basically over a few hours it's armageddon, then its back to normal. A big clue is the legend of the nine mansi hunters being found at the peak as if "boiled to death", history repeats. www.looo.ch talks about subsequent reports of fireballs coming down the mountain from military personnel stationed afterwards plus there's other reports of sustained cannon fire (thunder from cloud to cloud discharge). Also Tempalov thought he saw bomb craters at the bottom of the west side of Kholat during a helicopter ride which can be explained in the AET as ball lightning rolling down the other side.

Still reading and digesting on this.  I see that there is ongoing discussion now about what role microwaves/radio waves might play into global climate change, due to such an increase in satellites, cell phones, radar, etc with radiofrequencies.  Some of that research is helping me understand the ionization process and development of NO2 in natural causes (i.e. lightning.)  Not completely off topic but a little interesting tidbit I learned; in the late 40's, Russia had developed a method of spyware that utilized microwaves for bugging offices.  The actual listening device had no electrical components; it was placed inside an item in the office.  Then microwaves were aimed from another building which the device somehow used to transmit sound and it sent a signal to a receiver elsewhere.  It makes me wonder if microwaves could have been used in some of the military/KGB theories for Dyatlov.  If the microwaves did not have a natural cause, as in the AET you've mentioned, I would think whatever equipment was being tested or used would have had to be mobile, close and quickly evacuated.  But if they had microwave technology then, I'd be curious to research that possibility at some point.

[KFinn]

Got a little excited.  I was reading about decomposition discoloring and that nitrate poisoning can result in dark purple or blue skin and I was thinking about the strange skin colors of the victims (some said brick red, others said purple, others said yellow...)

....and then I realized that nitrates are NO3 not NO2....

I thought I was on to something in regards to adding more possible evidence to the AET above.

(This is why you don't study medicolegal texts after taking the night time meds.)

[Nigel Evans]

Googling suggests that electric discharge can create a broad family of nitrogen/oxygen combinations and different quantities depending on the discharge type, e.g. lightning vs corona discharge.
I'm fascinated by this clip, what if it's an electrical object spewing gases?

[ash73]

It's just black contrails

[Nigel Evans]

Here's a better video of it.
Look at the first 12 seconds, the key point is that the WHOLE trail rotates by (say) 90 degrees. That "smoke" is not being produced by an aircraft at a great distance travelling at hundreds of mph and changing course, but by something considerably closer and relatively stationery and the air currents are rotating the plume.

[Nigel Evans]

From memory there's an even better youtube vid, will try and find it.

[ash73]

It just parallax effect, in your clip the aircraft (at the top) is flying on a perpendicular course away from them, they are passing behind a relatively short trail which spreads out behind it. Various things can cause the black colouration - incomplete combustion, military aircraft fuels, shadow effects, etc.

[Nigel Evans]

It just parallax effect, in your clip the aircraft (at the top) is flying on a perpendicular course away from them, they are passing behind a relatively short trail which spreads out behind it. Various things can cause the black colouration - incomplete combustion, military aircraft fuels, shadow effects, etc.

The whole plume rotates 90 degrees in about 15 secs due to parallax? I don't think so.

[ash73]

The whole plume rotates 90 degrees in about 15 secs due to parallax? I don't think so.

It's not rotating, focus your eyes on the aircraft (little dot) at the top, it's just moving left to right (as they fly past it). She's not holding the camera steady but you see the distance to the top of the clouds is constant.

It's funny how easily the human brain can be deceived. People expect to see white contrails so when they see a black one it's... woah aliens!

[Nigel Evans]

The whole plume rotates 90 degrees in about 15 secs due to parallax? I don't think so.

It's not rotating, focus your eyes on the aircraft (little dot) at the top, it's just moving left to right (as they fly past it). She's not holding the camera steady but you see the distance to the top of the clouds is constant.

It's funny how easily the human brain can be deceived. People expect to see white contrails so when they see a black one it's... woah aliens!

If we can't agree that the plume rotates then don't think there's any point continuing this.

[KFinn]

It is bizarre!  It almost looked like a whale bursting through the clouds at first! 

[KFinn]

Googling suggests that electric discharge can create a broad family of nitrogen/oxygen combinations and different quantities depending on the discharge type, e.g. lightning vs corona discharge.
I'm fascinated by this clip, what if it's an electrical object spewing gases?

I will keep poking around on the nitrate/nitrite aspect.  I have some basic understanding from curing my own bacon (it will be currency during the apocalypse trust me, lol!) which is probably why it initially jumped out at me where I might otherwise have read over it.  I'm finishing up some decomposition texts regarding what variables can affect livor mortis and the decomposition process.  Obviously, certain poisons appear as differently colored livor, carbon monoxide-cherry red, phosphorus-yellow brown, primary or secondary methemoglobinemia-brown, etc.  (Cyanide, hypothermia and artifacts of mortuary refrigeration can all also appear bright red.)  While I don't personally see an intentional poisoning as on the strong side of my plausibility spectrum, atmospheric poisoning of some sort from a weird/unique phenomenon is highly intriguing.  The AET is very compelling.  We know that whatever happened, the particular set of circumstances were unique.  I'm not going to rule out theories just because we don't socially accept them (such as the menk; my only reservation is that the evidence puts it a little lower on my plausibility spectrum than say, a weather phenomena.  And to me, UFO is simply something not identified by the observer that is in the sky.  That encompasses a broad range of things including natural phenomena, man made things, etc.). Going back to unintentional poisoning, this includes the possibility of the stove, which I had wrote off for some time and should not have.  Again, the circumstances would have to be specifically unique; for example, they started the stove for heat, needed the vent for the photo taking and the stove was disassembled prematurely. 

Oddly enough, (I will spare the forum the details here so anyone who wants can look into it and everyone else is free to not read about the gory specifics,) I'm also now wondering about the blood reported by some on Zina's face and whether it could have been decomposition purge.  What we would have attributed decades ago to antemortem violence in many cases can now be identified as part if the decomposition process.  I am not saying that is definitely the case here, obviously.  I was not there for the autopsies and the pictures are not the easiest to glean details.  But, in some theories, if we are able to think of some of the injuries as natural to the decomposition process, we don't get stuck on needing outsider interaction to bolster those theories.  That is not to say we pick and chose the evidence, just that if we can explain some things in the context of certain theories, it does affect their plausibility. 

[Nigel Evans]

It is bizarre!  It almost looked like a whale bursting through the clouds at first!

Yes there's no easy way to explain it imo. There are other videos of white trails climbing upwards, strongly suggesting steam rising from a hot (invisible) object, i'll try and find some. This is another favourite -



But i'd ignore the audio, pity there are only still images, not video.

[Nigel Evans]

Googling suggests that electric discharge can create a broad family of nitrogen/oxygen combinations and different quantities depending on the discharge type, e.g. lightning vs corona discharge.
I'm fascinated by this clip, what if it's an electrical object spewing gases?

I will keep poking around on the nitrate/nitrite aspect.  I have some basic understanding from curing my own bacon (it will be currency during the apocalypse trust me, lol!) which is probably why it initially jumped out at me where I might otherwise have read over it.  I'm finishing up some decomposition texts regarding what variables can affect livor mortis and the decomposition process.  Obviously, certain poisons appear as differently colored livor, carbon monoxide-cherry red, phosphorus-yellow brown a good fit for Lyudmila's face where the scalp and chin are white., primary or secondary methemoglobinemia-brown, etc.  (Cyanide, hypothermia and artifacts of mortuary refrigeration can all also appear bright red.)  While I don't personally see an intentional poisoning as on the strong side of my plausibility spectrum, atmospheric poisoning of some sort from a weird/unique phenomenon is highly intriguing.  The AET is very compelling.  We know that whatever happened, the particular set of circumstances were unique.  I'm not going to rule out theories just because we don't socially accept them (such as the menk; my only reservation is that the evidence puts it a little lower on my plausibility spectrum than say, a weather phenomena we're of the same mindset.  And to me, UFO is simply something not identified by the observer that is in the sky.  That encompasses a broad range of things including natural phenomena, man made things, etc.). Going back to unintentional poisoning, this includes the possibility of the stove, which I had wrote off for some time and should not have.  Again, the circumstances would have to be specifically unique; for example, they started the stove for heat, needed the vent for the photo taking and the stove was disassembled prematurely.  Doubtful imo.

Oddly enough, (I will spare the forum the details here so anyone who wants can look into it and everyone else is free to not read about the gory specifics,) I'm also now wondering about the blood reported by some on Zina's face and whether it could have been decomposition purge.  What we would have attributed decades ago to antemortem violence in many cases can now be identified as part if the decomposition process.  I am not saying that is definitely the case here, obviously.  I was not there for the autopsies and the pictures are not the easiest to glean details.  But, in some theories, if we are able to think of some of the injuries as natural to the decomposition process, we don't get stuck on needing outsider interaction to bolster those theories.  That is not to say we pick and chose the evidence, just that if we can explain some things in the context of certain theories, it does affect their plausibility. Zinaida would have frozen shortly after death and was found face down so i'd say it was unlikely to be decomposition, unless the AET warmed the slope in the intervening three weeks?... This is anyway required to explain the disappearance of the snow around the tent, firn snow on it, sastrugi local to the tent, Rustem's ice bed and wet feet, lack of frostbite, unbuttoned clothing, not wearing gloves.

[KFinn]

It is bizarre!  It almost looked like a whale bursting through the clouds at first!

Yes there's no easy way to explain it imo. There are other videos of white trails climbing upwards, strongly suggesting steam rising from a hot (invisible) object, i'll try and find some. This is another favourite -



But i'd ignore the audio, pity there are only still images, not video.

The robotic voice *was* very unsettling, lol.

I didn't see a date on the satellite killer headline.  Do you know approximately when this was seen?  I will need to do some searching.  This is really cool!!! 

[KFinn]

Googling suggests that electric discharge can create a broad family of nitrogen/oxygen combinations and different quantities depending on the discharge type, e.g. lightning vs corona discharge.
I'm fascinated by this clip, what if it's an electrical object spewing gases?

I will keep poking around on the nitrate/nitrite aspect.  I have some basic understanding from curing my own bacon (it will be currency during the apocalypse trust me, lol!) which is probably why it initially jumped out at me where I might otherwise have read over it.  I'm finishing up some decomposition texts regarding what variables can affect livor mortis and the decomposition process.  Obviously, certain poisons appear as differently colored livor, carbon monoxide-cherry red, phosphorus-yellow brown a good fit for Lyudmila's face where the scalp and chin are white., primary or secondary methemoglobinemia-brown, etc.  (Cyanide, hypothermia and artifacts of mortuary refrigeration can all also appear bright red.)  While I don't personally see an intentional poisoning as on the strong side of my plausibility spectrum, atmospheric poisoning of some sort from a weird/unique phenomenon is highly intriguing.  The AET is very compelling.  We know that whatever happened, the particular set of circumstances were unique.  I'm not going to rule out theories just because we don't socially accept them (such as the menk; my only reservation is that the evidence puts it a little lower on my plausibility spectrum than say, a weather phenomena we're of the same mindset.  And to me, UFO is simply something not identified by the observer that is in the sky.  That encompasses a broad range of things including natural phenomena, man made things, etc.). Going back to unintentional poisoning, this includes the possibility of the stove, which I had wrote off for some time and should not have.  Again, the circumstances would have to be specifically unique; for example, they started the stove for heat, needed the vent for the photo taking and the stove was disassembled prematurely.  Doubtful imo.

Oddly enough, (I will spare the forum the details here so anyone who wants can look into it and everyone else is free to not read about the gory specifics,) I'm also now wondering about the blood reported by some on Zina's face and whether it could have been decomposition purge.  What we would have attributed decades ago to antemortem violence in many cases can now be identified as part if the decomposition process.  I am not saying that is definitely the case here, obviously.  I was not there for the autopsies and the pictures are not the easiest to glean details.  But, in some theories, if we are able to think of some of the injuries as natural to the decomposition process, we don't get stuck on needing outsider interaction to bolster those theories.  That is not to say we pick and chose the evidence, just that if we can explain some things in the context of certain theories, it does affect their plausibility. Zinaida would have frozen shortly after death and was found face down so i'd say it was unlikely to be decomposition, unless the AET warmed the slope in the intervening three weeks?... This is anyway required to explain the disappearance of the snow around the tent, firn snow on it, sastrugi local to the tent, Rustem's ice bed and wet feet, lack of frostbite, unbuttoned clothing, not wearing gloves.

Re Zina, if there were a good sunny day before she was snow covered or the AET affected temps, it could have impacted rates of of decomposition.  Livor mortis (and rigor and algor) is definitely slowed by freezing; both blanching and fixation of lividity is slower but still does occur.  If we'd had more autopsy info, Vrozdenny (I'm spelling it wrong, sadly,) could have checked fixation as the bodies warmed by pressing on livor areas.  But even frozen, it *should* have been fixed by then...of course, there are so many things that *should* be but just aren't or we just don't have enough info on :(  So many questions I wish I could go back in time to ask from the autopsies!!!  But as you mention, Rustem's ice bed...in warmer temps that possibly could have thawed and refrozen.  Although, if the AET did impact temperatures enough for some thawing and refreezing, if lividity was fixed, that could explain the perceived change in body position?  Also, any areas pressed against a hard surface will be white; the localised pressure prevents blood pooling (pictures of this are really weird because you can make out the shapes of what the body was pressed against, like chair spindles and such.  It is morbidly neat.)  I'm not certain where I'm going with this, my brain is just doing "brainstorming" of possibly variables here. 

[Nigel Evans]

http://rolabop.blogspot.com/2011/11/mystery-missile-in-conclusion.html

[Nigel Evans]

[ash73]

A380 surely has the best contrails... very cool.

[sarapuk]

So once again drifting off course. What started as a post about a Notebook and a question on the search camp, becomes lots of other totally unrelated things.

[Nigel Evans]

So once again drifting off course. What started as a post about a Notebook and a question on the search camp, becomes lots of other totally unrelated things.

You make a fair point.

[sarapuk]

So once again drifting off course. What started as a post about a Notebook and a question on the search camp, becomes lots of other totally unrelated things.

You make a fair point.

It wasnt difficult to make. I find the Dyatlov Case difficult enough without making it more difficult by continually drifting off course.

[KFinn]

So once again drifting off course. What started as a post about a Notebook and a question on the search camp, becomes lots of other totally unrelated things.

You make a fair point.

It wasnt difficult to make. I find the Dyatlov Case difficult enough without making it more difficult by continually drifting off course.

I do apologize.  I have a bad habit of doing that and I know it is hard to track.  (And its even worse inside my brain than here, lol!!!)

[Nigel Evans]

So once again drifting off course. What started as a post about a Notebook and a question on the search camp, becomes lots of other totally unrelated things.

You make a fair point.

It wasnt difficult to make. I find the Dyatlov Case difficult enough without making it more difficult by continually drifting off course.

I do apologize.  I have a bad habit of doing that and I know it is hard to track.  (And its even worse inside my brain than here, lol!!!)

No apology necessary, very intereting talking to you. See you in the Lightning / Ball Lightning section sometime.