Who here on the forum has real life experience?

[Nigel Evans]

@Investigator - i don't agree it was foolhardy to camp there if a watch was maintained. Their problem wasn't the ridge or the wind.

[ash73]

There would be no reason to maintain a watch/sentry in such an isolated area, they would be tired the next day and hold the group up. And they were all exhausted from the climb.

[Nigel Evans]

There would be no reason to maintain a watch/sentry in such an isolated area, they would be tired the next day and hold the group up. And they were all exhausted from the climb.

No they'd spent that day resting and left circa 3pm. By watch i mean someone staying awake inside to monitor the tent's flapping. Less than one hour per person.
The expected worst case would be to collapse the tent, cover it with snow and head for the forest fully dressed and light a fire. There could no expectation of a good nights sleep up there. Most of them wouldn't get much sleep anyway, watch or not.

[tenne]

I built a snow shelter during the winter in Alaska with my husband, but we did it intentionally and had good bags and pads. It was on a large prairie surrounded by trees but only about 1 mile/1.6km from our house and about 150 yards from a good trail. We had two dogs, an Alaskan Husky and our half Lab/half Wolf to help us keep warm. Looking back on it I think we were crazy.

That sounds like fun. I bet your dogs loved it if nothing else. the excuse to snuggle with their humans without "go away you blasted fur heater under the covers'(I sleep with three pugs and they hear that on a reg basis. they don't seem to care :(

[tenne]

There would be no reason to maintain a watch/sentry in such an isolated area, they would be tired the next day and hold the group up. And they were all exhausted from the climb.

Those old stoves need constant tending and I think that is why the diaries had entries about shifts. if you don't wake up at least once or twice to put wood in them, they burn out and it gets really cold and then you have to try to start a fire in the cold. it sucks. I grew up with wood heat and when the wood was too dry and burnt out too quickly, I was glad my parents had to get out of bed and get the fire going,not me

[ash73]

No they'd spent that day resting and left circa 3pm.

That's not possible, they'd be setting the tent up in darkness.

I think they set off before noon, after spending 2 hours building the labaz, got to the midpoint between 805 and 1079 an hour later, and then faced a tough side-stepping climb up the slope of 1079 in a blizzard. They probably set up camp around 4pm; Rakitin calculated the sun would already be setting below the peak by then. They'd be exhausted by the time they climbed into the tent.

Give Clark Wilkins book a try, it contains by far the best description of their route navigation that I've read so far.

He suggests Kolya and Zolotaryov were dressed, and outside the tent, because they were trying to get a bearing on a landmark to confirm the position on their compass bearing. They would have to do this before sunset.

[Nigel Evans]

No they'd spent that day resting and left circa 3pm.

That's not possible, they'd be setting the tent up in darkness.

I think they set off before noon, after spending 2 hours building the labaz, got to the midpoint between 805 and 1079 an hour later, and then faced a tough side-stepping climb up the slope of 1079 in a blizzard. They probably set up camp around 4pm; Rakitin calculated the sun would already be setting below the peak by then. They'd be exhausted by the time they climbed into the tent.

Give Clark Wilkins book a try, it contains by far the best description of their route navigation that I've read so far.

He suggests Kolya and Zolotaryov were dressed, and outside the tent, because they were trying to get a bearing on a landmark to confirm the position on their compass bearing. They would have to do this before sunset.

Ivanov's view :-
On 31.I.59 going back in the valley of Auspiya river and knowing about the difficult conditions of the relief of the height "1079", where the ascent was supposed to be, Dyatlov, as the leader of the group, made a gross mistake allowing the group to begin the ascent on 1.II.59, only at 15-00.

Later, on the ski trail, which was preserved at the time of the search, it was possible to establish that the hikers, moving to the valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River, were 500-600 m to the left and instead of the pass formed by the peaks "1079" and "880" they went up on the eastern slope of height "1079".
This was Dyatlov's second mistake.
Using light day time to rise to the top of the "1079", in conditions of strong wind that is usual in this area, and a low temperature of the order of 25-30°C, Dyatlov group found themselves at unprofitable conditions for spending the night and decided to pitch the tent on a slope of height "1079" so that in the morning of the next day, without losing altitude, go to the Mt. Otorten, to which the distance in straight line remained about 10 km.
In one of the cameras the last frame shows the moment of excavation of snow for the installation of the tent. Considering that this frame was shot with an exposure of I/25 seconds, with a diaphragm of 5.6 at a film sensitivity of 65 Un. GOST, and taking into account the density of the frame, we can assume that the hikers started the installation of the tent around 5 pm 1.II.59. A similar picture was taken with another camera.


Three points :-

• there can be no evidence for the 3pm set off other than the (well qualified) rescue team's opinion that they only needed 2 hours for that journey.
• the diary, the camera on a tripod and photos that are still debated (n.b. everyone accepts that Eagle is a genuine photo and if so then what is the status of the others particularly Plane2?)  all point to a deliberate purpose - to photograph the lights.
• You don't wear a camera around your neck to take a bearing. You do that to take quick shots of something transient in challenging conditions.

[ash73]

Three points :-

• there can be no evidence for the 3pm set off other than the (well qualified) rescue team's opinion that they only needed 2 hours for that journey.
• the diary, the camera on a tripod and photos that are still debated (n.b. everyone accepts that Eagle is a genuine photo and if so then what is the status of the others particularly Plane2?)  all point to a deliberate purpose - to photograph the lights.
• You don't wear a camera around your neck to take a bearing. You do that to take quick shots of something transient in challenging conditions.

I think 3pm is way off the mark, they were trying to make up lost time, the climb would take too long so they'd arrive in darkness (the team was estimating in good weather), and if they were sitting around relaxing they would have updated their personal diaries - they were flat-out busy, and exhausted.

I don't think those photos are from the camera found around Zolotaryov's neck, and therefore were not taken that night. I read somewhere the film from that camera was ruined in the water, but I could be mistaken.

They weren't taking pictures of anything in the sky in that weather, perhaps he hoped to, more likely he just wore it all the time or was taking a picture of them standing in a blizzard beside the tent.

[Nigel Evans]

Three points :-

• there can be no evidence for the 3pm set off other than the (well qualified) rescue team's opinion that they only needed 2 hours for that journey.
• the diary, the camera on a tripod and photos that are still debated (n.b. everyone accepts that Eagle is a genuine photo and if so then what is the status of the others particularly Plane2?)  all point to a deliberate purpose - to photograph the lights.
• You don't wear a camera around your neck to take a bearing. You do that to take quick shots of something transient in challenging conditions.

I think 3pm is way off the mark, they were trying to make up lost time, the climb would take too long so they'd arrive in darkness (the team was estimating in good weather), and if they were sitting around relaxing they would have updated their personal diaries - they were flat-out busy, and exhausted. It's in the diary that they were exhausted from the previous day, so it fits that they rested and set off late for a 2 hour ascent.

I don't think those photos are from the camera found around Zolotaryov's neck, and therefore were not taken that night. I read somewhere the film from that camera was ruined in the water, but I could be mistaken. I'm not aware of anything in the casefiles concerning these photos being water damaged although it's reasonable conjecture of course.

They weren't taking pictures of anything in the sky in that weather, perhaps he hoped to, more likely he just wore it all the time or was taking a picture of them standing in a blizzard beside the tent. We don't know what the weather was like later on.

[Manti]

Ivanov's view :-
On 31.I.59 going back in the valley of Auspiya river and knowing about the difficult conditions of the relief of the height "1079", where the ascent was supposed to be, Dyatlov, as the leader of the group, made a gross mistake allowing the group to begin the ascent on 1.II.59, only at 15-00.

Later, on the ski trail, which was preserved at the time of the search, it was possible to establish that the hikers, moving to the valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River, were 500-600 m to the left and instead of the pass formed by the peaks "1079" and "880" they went up on the eastern slope of height "1079".
This was Dyatlov's second mistake.

Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?

[Manti]

Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?

[KFinn]

Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?

This was my understanding; that it has never been verified if there was anything in the case he wore.

[ash73]

Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?

This is Clark Wilkins summary, planned route in red, actual in green.



Igor tried to cut a corner, bypassing 663 and heading straight to 805. Wilkins suggests they were trying to navigate East of 805 (where the climb is steeper) towards 611, I think they were planning to rejoin their original route West of 805, on the East side of the pass. Either way they couldn't get up the slope of 805 so they headed South to 663 and made camp, too tired to dig the labaz or even a fire pit.

Now they were behind schedule. They sited the labaz 300m west of 663 in the morning, then Igor tried to cut another corner, setting a compass bearing of 320 degrees directly between 1079 and 805, which put them on the East slope of 1079, i.e. on the West (higher) slope of the pass instead of the East. They would have rejoined their original route on the downslope, Northeast of 1079.

They maintained a compass bearing because they were in a blizzard and couldn't see any landmarks. If they could spot 611 (where they ended up walking) they could have conceded altitude and rejoined their route, but they wouldn't want to do that, the climb had been a big effort. That's why the tent was on the slope, and why the search team were confused it was 500-600m "left" of where it should be.

Igor knew what he was doing but underestimated the climbs, they probably wanted to get to the Northeast side of 1079 but ran out of daylight. Wilkins points out they weren't recording certain details in the group diary because it was the official log which would be assessed for the grade III certification; and the personal diaries weren't being updated because they were exhausted.

Perhaps they found time to build a snowman before they set off from 663, and recorded it in the Evening Otorten

[Nigel Evans]

Ivanov's view :-
On 31.I.59 going back in the valley of Auspiya river and knowing about the difficult conditions of the relief of the height "1079", where the ascent was supposed to be, Dyatlov, as the leader of the group, made a gross mistake allowing the group to begin the ascent on 1.II.59, only at 15-00.

Later, on the ski trail, which was preserved at the time of the search, it was possible to establish that the hikers, moving to the valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River, were 500-600 m to the left and instead of the pass formed by the peaks "1079" and "880" they went up on the eastern slope of height "1079".
This was Dyatlov's second mistake.

Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?

You seem to reading "valley of the fourth tributary of the Lozva River" as "Lozva River"?

[Nigel Evans]

Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?

I don't think it was a fashion statement. i guess either you want to embrace these photos or you don't, if you don't then there's plenty of opportunities to deny them. Ivanov's personal effects included these photos etched with Semyon's surname. The person who developed that film added those letters for a reason.

[Nigel Evans]

Wait what? They were moving from the Auspiya valley to Lozva. Then why would be their ski tracks in the Lozva's valley? Or is this a mistake or am I misinterpreting it?

This is Clark Wilkins summary, planned route in red, actual in green.



Igor tried to cut a corner, bypassing 663 and heading straight to 805. Wilkins suggests they were trying to navigate East of 805 (where the climb is steeper) towards 611, I think they were planning to rejoin their original route West of 805, on the East side of the pass. Either way they couldn't get up the slope of 805 so they headed South to 663 and made camp, too tired to dig the labaz or even a fire pit.
Yes they were poorly equipped to ascend in those conditions it seems

Now they were behind schedule. They sited the labaz 300m west of 663 in the morning, then Igor tried to cut another corner, setting a compass bearing of 320 degrees directly between 1079 and 805, which put them on the East slope of 1079, i.e. on the West (higher) slope of the pass instead of the East. They would have rejoined their original route on the downslope, Northeast of 1079.

They maintained a compass bearing because they were in a blizzard and couldn't see any landmarks. If they could spot 611 (where they ended up walking) they could have conceded altitude and rejoined their route, but they wouldn't want to do that, the climb had been a big effort. That's why the tent was on the slope, and why the search team were confused it was 500-600m "left" of where it should be.You don't need a compass or line of sight in that situation to know that "down" takes you to the tree line and "up" doesn't.

Igor knew what he was doing but underestimated the climbs, they probably wanted to get to the Northeast side of 1079 but ran out of daylight. Wilkins points out they weren't recording certain details in the group diary because it was the official log which would be assessed for the grade III certification; and the personal diaries weren't being updated because they were exhausted.Igor recorded the decision to camp on the ridge?

Perhaps they found time to build a snowman before they set off from 663, and recorded it in the Evening Otorten

[ash73]

You can't leave a compass bearing in those conditions because you don't know how far along the line you are (other than estimating average speed), so you will be lost. Down might take you anywhere, wood, wasteland or river, frozen or not... and if the weather doesn't clear you'll never find your way back.

[Nigel Evans]

In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

On skis they could probably reach the treeline in 10 minutes from the tent in any wind conditions. For most of the ascent probably 5 minutes. You're overcooking the importance of the compass imo.

He said they were going to camp on the ridge and that's what they did, in a wind shadow full of loose snow to assist protecting the tent, the tent being properly setup according to expert witnesses.

[KFinn]

Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?

I don't think it was a fashion statement. i guess either you want to embrace these photos or you don't, if you don't then there's plenty of opportunities to deny them. Ivanov's personal effects included these photos etched with Semyon's surname. The person who developed that film added those letters for a reason.

I don't necessarily deny that the pictures are genuinely from Zolotaryev.  I just wonder if the film came from a camera in the case around Zolotaryev's neck or if the film came from the tent.  I wish there was better chain of command for various evidence. 

[ash73]

He said they were going to camp on the ridge and that's what they did

But he doesn't say where, or when, or on which side of the pass, so it can fit the plan.

Whereas he said S to 663, when it was actually SW (SSW at a push). Recording SW would show they were off course.

[ash73]

In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

You can get vertigo in a severe whiteout and lose your sense of up and down, dead reckoning is the only way to keep track of where you are; otherwise you're lost and gambling on the weather clearing to get your bearings.

Getting away with it is not the same as "best"

[Nigel Evans]

Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?

I don't think it was a fashion statement. i guess either you want to embrace these photos or you don't, if you don't then there's plenty of opportunities to deny them. Ivanov's personal effects included these photos etched with Semyon's surname. The person who developed that film added those letters for a reason.

I don't necessarily deny that the pictures are genuinely from Zolotaryev.  I just wonder if the film came from a camera in the case around Zolotaryev's neck or if the film came from the tent.  I wish there was better chain of command for various evidence.

None of the evidence is beyond question, all original materials confiscated, Okishev asserts that Ivanov would have doctored the case files under direction from Moscow, even the final casebook shows evidence of being restitched.

[Nigel Evans]

In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

You can get vertigo in a severe whiteout and lose your sense of up and down, dead reckoning is the only way to keep track of where you are; otherwise you're lost and gambling on the weather clearing to get your bearings.

Getting away with it is not the same as "best"

Being lost isn't a problem if the shelter of the forest is a few minutes away downhill. The only caveat would be if the map showed dangerously steep ground nearby which was not the case here.