How cold in the tent with no heat?

[tenne]

I was thinking about how they were dressed, when found, and wondering just how cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit? Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat? Do you think that 9 people would be sitting around the tent like that before whatever happened? If they were already in bed, I would assume they wouldn't have a really sharp knife handy and could easily grab their bedding as they ran

[Manti]

cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit?

Same as outside, max. +5C difference but even that is stretching it. It was a single-layer canvas tent with button/knob closure that leaves gaps, a hole for the stove chimney, possibly other tears, possibly no floor so there would be a gap...

Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat?

Doubtful, although some had multiple layers on. But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.

I would assume they ... could easily grab their bedding as they ran

Or their boots. Or their coats... Or the tools they had lying around

[cennetkusu]

I was thinking about how they were dressed, when found, and wondering just how cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit? Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat? Do you think that 9 people would be sitting around the tent like that before whatever happened? If they were already in bed, I would assume they wouldn't have a really sharp knife handy and could easily grab their bedding as they ran

The tent will be 10-20 degrees warm from the outside. They just take off their outermost clothes and shoes. If the stove is burned, they can stay in light clothing. In short, two Yurid were dressed because we know that the stove was not burning. But they should be the least dressed. I think the incident must have happened after a short while into the tent. Because Semyon and Tibo haven't taken off their shoes yet. And when the unknown coercive force was seen from a distance, everyone must have begun to look at it. And they must be trying to take pictures. They were not dressed. Because they did not anticipate that the "unknown coercive force" would attack them directly. During the attack, they had to leave the tent without getting dressed.

[Nigel Evans]

Google tells me that a properly constructed snow cave can have a temp inside of 0C when the outside temp is -40C. So if you pile enough snow on the tent you turn it into a cave, someone inside pushing out whilst others outside push in? The flashlight was sitting on top of 10cm of snow? Got to watch the ventilation though.

[tenne]

yes, snow forts are very warm, that is why they were used by the Inuit for centuries. this wasn't that warm as far I can tell. I don't think it would have been comfortable enough to sit around in the light clothing they were wearing. Which fits with my theory that the tent being set up there was part of the cover up.

IMO, to be dressed like that, they were in a warm building, or warmer than the tent for sure. the two men were dressed because they went outside for a smoke? talk? see something but I just can't see the rest of them comfortably sitting around with no stove in the tent, on a slope.

Which reminds me of another thing, the supposed last photo of the group pitching their tent on the mountain is supposed to show them digging a wall of snow to level the tent off. where is all that snow?

[RMK]

But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.

Manti, I used to disagree with you on that point, but now, I think you're right.  A plain canvas tent, pitched on an exposed hillside, in the Siberian winter, no sleeping bags, and no heat source?  I don't think so!  Having looked again at the photos from the 1958 expedition to the Subpolar Urals, I notice that they did deploy the stove even when camped above the treeline (you can see its chimney protruding from the tent).

So, yeah, if the Dyatlov group really did intentionally camp on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, then I now think they were planning to use the stove.  I think they'd try to do a "cold night" only if they had no other choice.

But, when the search party found the tent, the stove wasn't set up.  One possibility is that the Dyatlovites camped on the hillside, and for whatever reason abandoned their campsite before setting up the stove.  Another possibility is that the Dyatlov hikers never actually camped where their tent was found, and that the campsite on Kholat Syakhl, as found by the search party, was staged.

[KFinn]

But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.

Manti, I used to disagree with you on that point, but now, I think you're right.  A plain canvas tent, pitched on an exposed hillside, in the Siberian winter, no sleeping bags, and no heat source?  I don't think so!  Having looked again at the photos from the 1958 expedition to the Subpolar Urals, I notice that they did deploy the stove even when camped above the treeline (you can see its chimney protruding from the tent).

So, yeah, if the Dyatlov group really did intentionally camp on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, then I now think they were planning to use the stove.  I think they'd try to do a "cold night" only if they had no other choice.

But, when the search party found the tent, the stove wasn't set up.  One possibility is that the Dyatlovites camped on the hillside, and for whatever reason abandoned their campsite before setting up the stove.  Another possibility is that the Dyatlov hikers never actually camped where their tent was found, and that the campsite on Kholat Syakhl, as found by the search party, was staged.

Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?  I assume it had hooks to be hung after the tent was up but I don't think I've ever seen the process explained.  (With higher tents, you want to affix anything to the ridge before the ridge is in the air, but this tent did not stand so tall so I assume it didn't matter.  However, if for whatever reason there was no way to install the stove after the tent was up, that would indicate they either did not plan to use it or the tent was staged...)

[Nigel Evans]

We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).

So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.

• The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
• There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
• They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
• They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.

You couldn't make it a safer exercise?

[RMK]

Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?

Good question.  I don't know.

We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).

Nigel, what is the source of the information about the high-profile and low-profile configurations of the tent?  My understanding is that the high-profile setup is used when sheltered from the wind by trees, and allows for use of the stove, whereas the low-profile setup is necessary when exposed to the wind, and does not allow for use of the stove.  But, what is the source for that information?

So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.

• The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
• There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
• They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
• They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.

You couldn't make it a safer exercise?

Interesting idea, and consistent with what some of the searchers said about Dyatlov wanting to practice camping above the treeline.  However, as I already said upthread, I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest.  But, for the sake of discussion, let's suppose for a moment they did deliberately camp where the search party found their tent, and did so for the purpose of an endurance exercise as you describe.  Was their choice of campsite and choice to do a "cold night" a "but-for" cause of their deaths, or was it merely a contributing factor, or was it irrelevant to the DPI?

[sarapuk]

I was thinking about how they were dressed, when found, and wondering just how cold it would be in the tent, with no stove lit? Would they be sitting around in light clothing without a source of heat? Do you think that 9 people would be sitting around the tent like that before whatever happened? If they were already in bed, I would assume they wouldn't have a really sharp knife handy and could easily grab their bedding as they ran

Well we wont know exactly what the temperature was unless it was written down somewhere. But you can bet your bottom Dollar that it would have been colder in the Tent on the exposed Ridge than near the shelter of the Forest.

[Nigel Evans]

Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?

Good question.  I don't know.

We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).

Nigel, what is the source of the information about the high-profile and low-profile configurations of the tent?  My understanding is that the high-profile setup is used when sheltered from the wind by trees, and allows for use of the stove, whereas the low-profile setup is necessary when exposed to the wind, and does not allow for use of the stove.  But, what is the source for that information? Good question, don't know is the easy answer.

So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.

• The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
• There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
• They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
• They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.

You couldn't make it a safer exercise?

Interesting idea, and consistent with what some of the searchers said about Dyatlov wanting to practice camping above the treeline.  However, as I already said upthread, I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest.  I'd challenge that opinion, they mention in the diary how slow it was in the forest and to get to Ortorten they have to cross several tributaries (ravines) which could create other challenges, so you can see the attraction of quickly skiing across open ground scoured of deep snow by the wind. But, for the sake of discussion, let's suppose for a moment they did deliberately camp where the search party found their tent, and did so for the purpose of an endurance exercise as you describe.  Was their choice of campsite and choice to do a "cold night" a "but-for" cause of their deaths, or was it merely a contributing factor, or was it irrelevant to the DPI? Fleeing half dressed without shoes would have been a "big problem" if they had camped in the forest? Irrelevant imo.

[ash73]

I like Clark Wilkins' theory that the stove had been used, and was disassembled and still warm, sat on the floor at the front of the tent; and may even have been the cause of the tent evacuation. It doesn't make sense lugging it up the mountain and not using it.

However one thing I'm puzzled about it is the wood supply. How many nights would they be camping above the tree line, and how much would they need to bring with them? They might have been planning to save it for the next stop on Otorten, but the blizzard changed their minds.

We know there was no wood at the tent (apart from one log), but it could have been used already. They could have packed the stove with wood at the labaz. They could even have brought more wood, and taken it down the slope with them if the priority was to make a fire (dropping one log on the way out).

The stove being used fits with them only being lightly clothed, apart from Zolotaryov and Kolya who were probably outside. There was a cup of cocoa and some sliced meat nearby, they couldn't cook but maybe they could warm things up next to it. There's also the assembly record mentioned in Evening Otorten.

The small horizontal cuts at the top of the tent could have been made to ventilate fumes from the stove, the guy-lines were untied, and the tent was collapsed with snow possibly thrown on top. This may indicate the stove went out of control.

The question though is would they have been better off with multiple layers of clothing and sleeping bags? A home-made stove could be a dangerous liability in those winds. It's the most obvious thing in the tent to go wrong with lethal consequences.

[RMK]

Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?

Good question.  I don't know.

We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).

Nigel, what is the source of the information about the high-profile and low-profile configurations of the tent?  My understanding is that the high-profile setup is used when sheltered from the wind by trees, and allows for use of the stove, whereas the low-profile setup is necessary when exposed to the wind, and does not allow for use of the stove.  But, what is the source for that information? Good question, don't know is the easy answer.

So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.

• The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
• There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
• They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
• They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.

You couldn't make it a safer exercise?

Interesting idea, and consistent with what some of the searchers said about Dyatlov wanting to practice camping above the treeline.  However, as I already said upthread, I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest.  I'd challenge that opinion, they mention in the diary how slow it was in the forest and to get to Ortorten they have to cross several tributaries (ravines) which could create other challenges, so you can see the attraction of quickly skiing across open ground scoured of deep snow by the wind. But, for the sake of discussion, let's suppose for a moment they did deliberately camp where the search party found their tent, and did so for the purpose of an endurance exercise as you describe.  Was their choice of campsite and choice to do a "cold night" a "but-for" cause of their deaths, or was it merely a contributing factor, or was it irrelevant to the DPI? Fleeing half dressed without shoes would have been a "big problem" if they had camped in the forest? Irrelevant imo.

OK, I see your point about how they would make better time above the treeline.  Let me clarify my remark: I've grown quite skeptical that the Dyatlov hikers would deliberately camp on the hillside when they could have camped in the forest, if it is indeed true that camping on the hillside would necessarily preclude use of the stove due to the need to pitch the tent "low-profile".  Now, it seems you and I have the same understanding of the two "modes" of the tent, but neither of us can cite a reliable source for that information.  I'm beginning to question whether our understanding is accurate.  If the Dyatlov Nine actually could have used the stove when camped on the slope, then choosing to camp there makes more sense.

[Nigel Evans]

@RMK - my guess is that the low mode does not prevent using the stove, it prevents sleeping under the stove. So for this location the stove is a last resort. The camera on tripod is part of this question, it makes sense that the stove's vent through the tent was used by the camera yes? So photography and using the stove are exclusive, one or the other not both.

[RMK]

@RMK - my guess is that the low mode does not prevent using the stove, it prevents sleeping under the stove.

Aha!  Perhaps so.

[KFinn]

@RMK - my guess is that the low mode does not prevent using the stove, it prevents sleeping under the stove. So for this location the stove is a last resort. The camera on tripod is part of this question, it makes sense that the stove's vent through the tent was used by the camera yes? So photography and using the stove are exclusive, one or the other not both.

This absolutely makes sense and would explain why either the stove had not been set up (they may still have intended to,) or why it would be taken down if they did start using it.  I might even go so far as to wonder if they tried taking pictures through the cuts first but realized the vent would be the best option.  I suppose it depends on whether they intended to take pictures or some sudden event prompted it. 

[Investigator]

We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).

So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.

• The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
• There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
• They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
• They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.

You couldn't make it a safer exercise?

I thought of this perhaps a couple years ago, or that it was a kind of punishment for not sewing the tent properly (as we read in the diaries), but now I'm wondering if it was an experiment or punishment, and the idea was to get the stove going some time during the night.  The problem that they may not have predicted is that the tent would ice up, to the point that it looked like it would collapse into shreds and everything would get blown all over the mountainside.  So, in this scenario, Igor may have been waiting to wake them (if any could get to sleep being so cold), in order to help out with the stove, but then they saw how bad the tent was and had to focus on that.  Perhaps the idea was to have some work on the tent while others worked on the stove, but it soon became clear they couldn't deal with the tent under the conditions that existed, and believed that securing the tent was the priority.  Still, if this is accurate, they had to believe that they could survive the night away from the tent, even though they were unfamiliar with the area, which is of course not a good idea.  To me the most interesting thing now is the hope that someone will try to do a realistic recreation/reconstruction of that night.

[Tony]

Here are a bunch of videos of people spending the night in very cold weather in a tent without a stove:











And, of course,



This video shows that it is absolutely possible to survive a night on Kholat Syakhl in a tent without a stove. 9 People in a canvas tent would be warm enough without a stove.

Whenever this case is brought up there's this misconception that everyone was sleeping in underwear which isn't true. All of them (minus Yuri D. and Yurk K. who had clothing removed after death) had on multiple layers of clothing - Zina, for example, had on 5 bottom layers. Rustem had on 4 upper layers. This is normally what would be worn. The only thing that you could argue was odd was not wearing their valenki. Most of them had on multiple socks which, more than likely, kept them warm enough. It's possible that they had them off to dry and planned on putting them on later.

Here is what they were wearing (note that Yuri K. and Yuri D. had clothing removed so, we'll never know exactly what they were wearing in the tent) https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?lid=1

There is nothing odd about the way they were dressed in the tent. There is nothing odd about them not using the stove. They all probably thought that it would be a cold windy night, but that it would be warm enough.

A few years back my son went on a winter overnighter with the scouts. Nylon tent, no stove, he slept in socks. The temp outside got down to -5 F. He stayed warm other than his feet, which he said got really cold.

[KFinn]

Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!

I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous.  That is mostly owing to health and preference.  I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!! 

There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps.  In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade.  With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days.  We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees.  We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable.  I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside.  I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them? 

I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions. 

[Investigator]

Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!

I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous.  That is mostly owing to health and preference.  I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!! 

There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps.  In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade.  With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days.  We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees.  We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable.  I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside.  I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them? 

I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.

Right, you have to try and recreate the exact conditions, which also includes two old army tents of that same type, sewn together, and coming apart at the seams during much better weather conditions.  Here are two quotes from the book, "Off the Wall" (which may have relevance to the DPI):

Late during that Tuesday morning Ranger James Holcomb, still alone, finally found the elusive tent. It had collapsed and had been partly snowed under. This explains his difficulty in finding it. As Holcomb neared it, he next saw that the door of the flattened tent lay open. Klingenberg, hatless, lay sprawled within this opening. Eclipsing any hope that Holcomb had arrived in the nick of time, snow now covered the prone man’s lower body. The autopsy revealed Klingenberg had died of “cold and exposure” a day earlier, on Monday morning.

Because of Lyman’s decision to travel light, he had left himself vulnerable to the mind-sapping effects of hypothermia on that ledge where he had dumped his clothing in a wet, soon-to-be-frozen, heap.

[KFinn]

Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!

I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous.  That is mostly owing to health and preference.  I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!! 

There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps.  In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade.  With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days.  We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees.  We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable.  I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside.  I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them? 

I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.

Right, you have to try and recreate the exact conditions, which also includes two old army tents of that same type, sewn together, and coming apart at the seams during much better weather conditions.  Here are two quotes from the book, "Off the Wall" (which may have relevance to the DPI):

Late during that Tuesday morning Ranger James Holcomb, still alone, finally found the elusive tent. It had collapsed and had been partly snowed under. This explains his difficulty in finding it. As Holcomb neared it, he next saw that the door of the flattened tent lay open. Klingenberg, hatless, lay sprawled within this opening. Eclipsing any hope that Holcomb had arrived in the nick of time, snow now covered the prone man’s lower body. The autopsy revealed Klingenberg had died of “cold and exposure” a day earlier, on Monday morning.

Because of Lyman’s decision to travel light, he had left himself vulnerable to the mind-sapping effects of hypothermia on that ledge where he had dumped his clothing in a wet, soon-to-be-frozen, heap.

This quote seems familiar to me.  Have you posted about it before?  Sometimes I forget what I've read where, lol. 

[Tony]

Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!

I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous.  That is mostly owing to health and preference.  I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!! 

There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps.  In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade.  With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days.  We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees.  We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable.  I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside.  I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them? 

I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.

I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.

I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.

One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.

[KFinn]

Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!

I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous.  That is mostly owing to health and preference.  I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!! 

There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps.  In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade.  With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days.  We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees.  We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable.  I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside.  I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them? 

I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.

I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.

I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.

One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.

I get the impression that dating things was not as precise as it is say for us, now.  I can readily admit that on a trail like that, it can be easy to lose track of what date it is.  But judging by the number of inconsistent dates all over this incident, I wonder if it just wasn't something they worried so much about being exact?  (If that makes sense?).

[tenne]

While those videos are very entertaining, they do not address them camping in a 1959 tent, with 1959 clothing and no fire. We can't compare the modern materials we wear in the winter and the materials that the tents are made of now.

I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.

I have no personal experience in old tents with winter wear from that time and no fire

As for starting the fire, he said that back then they used much larger matches, we call them fireplace matches now and they were so big that they could be used as tinder for the fire so that was a possiblity

[Nigel Evans]

I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.

Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?

[ash73]

I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.

I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.

One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.

Remember they had another 30-40km to Otorten, I don't know yet precisely what their route was but they must have been planning to camp several nights above the tree line. If the tent wasn't up to it then the expedition was doomed from the start.

I think they were unlucky with the weather, you can see the blizzard in the photos. They probably tried to compensate with the stove and it caused a problem. Watching those videos (which are fun, btw) it's fairly straightforward in normal weather, but the moment it turns you can be in real trouble.

The Evening Otorten makes sense if they used the stove for a while and disassembled it, the tent would be fairly warm.

[tenne]

I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.

Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?

I showed him the photos and he couldn’t see any evidence of them digging a snow cave and he isn’t the only one to say that. There is no evidence of it

[sarapuk]

Tony, thank you for all of those videos!!

I admit that I've camped less in colder weather in the last decade and a half than previous.  That is mostly owing to health and preference.  I did it in my twenties and loved it but in my forties, I can chose not to, lol!! 

There are always tips and tricks to help with camping in extreme temps.  In the middle of summer at our biggest reenactment, we have thousands of people crammed into a large open field where there is no shade.  With the heat index, it can be over 100F on the worst of days.  We use heavy fabrics under the roof canvas to help block the direct sun, which diminishes the temps in the tent by more than 10 degrees.  We've done this in cold, as well, to help add an insulating factor and again, the difference can be noticeable.  I know the Dyatlov group used "sheets" inside.  I wish I knew more about those; when I first saw that, I was thinking of the thin cotton bed sheets but like many translations, I think they would be somewhat more substantial than that, else why bother bringing them? 

I still do not think that camping on that very ridge in that spot was a good choice as so few people have ever actually done it in winter conditions.

I agree, I'm not entirely sure why they took such a risk by camping there. My only thought is that Igor looked at it as a challenge and the group went a long with it.

I'm in my 40s as well and I'm not too eager to go camping in the snow and cold - lol. It seems like I've also read that there was an sheet lining in the tent that they used as insulation.

One thing I think is odd is that they would have written the 'Evening Otorten' that night with it being so cold, windy, and noisy. Is it possible they wrote it a different night and wrote the date wrong? - I know on a couple of diary entries by some of the group members the date is written down wrong. I figured they could have written it the night before and whoever dated it accidentally wrote down the 1st instead of 31st.

Very informative videos. Obviously 9 people well dressed huddled together in a Tent would provide a good amount of heat. The most interesting thing which is overlooked regarding the 'Evening Otorten' is that it was pinned or lets just say fixed to the Tent near the entrance. 

[tenne]

How were they well dressed in the tent? Not what I would call well dressed for those temps in a tent that had holes in it. a coat? was plugging one hole from what I've read.

[sarapuk]

I just had a talk with an old trapper who trapped in Northern Ontario for years. He said NO WAY! not in those materials and with no fire. I showed him the photos and he just laughed at the thought that they would be dressed like that in the tent under those conditions.

Did you explain that they seem to have dug down one metre and probably created a snow cave (flashlight on 10cm of firn snow) which could raise the temperature from -40C to 0C?

I showed him the photos and he couldn’t see any evidence of them digging a snow cave and he isn’t the only one to say that. There is no evidence of it

i agree. And this is an important fact, again overlooked, like so many important facts that are overlooked for some reason, on this Forum. It appears that they set the Tent up quickly not having the time or strength to dig any foundations.