October 18, 2021, 04:37:01 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Location of 2nd Northern (2-й Северный?)  (Read 622 times)

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April 17, 2021, 11:54:06 AM
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Manti


Google maps has a marker at 61.60378, 60.01951 that says "2-Y Severnyy Rudnik".

This is on an island in the Lozva river, but is this the actual location of 2nd Northern? Nearby at 61.62515, 60.03453 is where I can actually see some houses. Is the marker on the island just slightly misplaced?


Also, is there a mention of Ushma settlement anywhere in the diaries? Mustn't have they travelled through Ushma on the way to 2nd Northern?
 

April 17, 2021, 01:25:34 PM
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WAB


Google maps has a marker at 61.60378, 60.01951 that says "2-Y Severnyy Rudnik".

No, this is mistake by unknown (to me personally) author. This is just an island on the Lozva River and there was nothing there. Perhaps only there were blockages of wood, when it was rafted down the river.
The real coordinates of the settlement "2nd Severny" are N 61.63244 ; E 59.98389 . The word "mine" for this object, on the official topographic maps is missing, because near the town of Severouralsk there was another settlement with the name "2nd Severny Rudnik(mine)". It is now the part perimeter of the Severouralsk city, in the very north of the city. Its coordinates are
N 61.152390 ; E 59.952161 .
On the maps it looked like this:



This is on an island in the Lozva river, but is this the actual location of 2nd Northern?

No. I wrote about it above.

Nearby at 61.62515, 60.03453 is where I can actually see some houses. Is the marker on the island just slightly misplaced?

It's not that close . grin1 It's Mansi village called “Treskolye”. It wasn't there yet in 1959. It appeared after the fires in the Suevatpaul settlement. It was around 1970s or even 1980s.

Also, is there mention of Ushma settlement anywhere in the diaries?

No. This record could not be there, because the construction of this village began only in 1963. And it did not finally take shape as it is now until after 2005...

Mustn't have they travelled through Ushma on the way to 2nd Northern?

Depending on what you consider as "Ushma"? Back then there was only the mouth of the Ushma River and very small hunter's hut, which from the Lozva River was not visible
In 2008 when we were on our expedition and in the evening sat in the camp under the pass with Yury Yudin, we discussed this very question in detail. After the discussion we came to the conclusion that they had not seen anything there, and that means that this village had not existed then. A little later in 2009 or 2010, with the help of local historian Felix Solomonovich, it was confirmed that the construction of the village began only in 1963, and people began live there permanently only in 1965.
 

April 17, 2021, 02:56:36 PM
Reply #2
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Teddy

Administrator
Google maps has a marker at 61.60378, 60.01951 that says "2-Y Severnyy Rudnik".

This is on an island in the Lozva river, but is this the actual location of 2nd Northern? Nearby at 61.62515, 60.03453 is where I can actually see some houses. Is the marker on the island just slightly misplaced?


WAB, I believe Manti is asking about what is here marked in pink 2-Y Severnyy Rudnik. It is not misspelled but rather misplaced?




This is not my doing. I used WAB coordinates for the 2nd Northern on my map.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ir_5s1TxKPbmckWlLdNRzfqb5ZE&usp=sharing


Here is the 2nd Northern the Dyatlov group went through.


WAB is showing on a map another 2nd Northern (near Severouralsk) which is further south nowhere near Dyatlov group route, because in my opinion he thought Manti is asking about that one, not the one in pink on the island of Lozva.

Nearby at 61.62515, 60.03453 is where I can actually see some houses. Is the marker on the island just slightly misplaced?
You see them now. They were not there in 1959. If you see houses they might have named a hostel and pin it on Google maps to attract tourists.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 03:16:45 PM by Teddy »
 

April 18, 2021, 08:18:40 AM
Reply #3
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Manti


I see, thank you for your explanations Teddy and WAB. That location (N 61.63244 ; E 59.98389) makes sense, there are remains of a road leading there.

I have one more question: from the diaries it seems like this used to be a mining settlement... I used to think (based on the wrong location on the small island), that what is meant by mining is sifting through mud from the river for gold nuggets. This location, still directly next to the river also seems appropriate for that but, in the diaries it is mentioned the guys found a drilled core. I cannot see any remains of an open-pit mine nearby, and as for an underground mine, wouldn't it be flooded by groundwater if it's close to a river? Modern technologies (sprayed concrete) make it possible to construct mineshafts near rivers but still, water needs to be continuously pumped out...

Therefore my question is, was this a mining settlement, but quite far from the actual mine? Do we know where the mine was? Or was this perhaps a logging settlement? If so why would mineral cores be found here?
 

April 18, 2021, 10:42:43 AM
Reply #4
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WAB


Google maps has a marker at 61.60378, 60.01951 that says "2-Y Severnyy Rudnik".

This is on an island in the Lozva river, but is this the actual location of 2nd Northern? Nearby at 61.62515, 60.03453 is where I can actually see some houses. Is the marker on the island just slightly misplaced?


WAB, I believe Manti is asking about what is here marked in pink 2-Y Severnyy Rudnik. It is not misspelled but rather misplaced?

Maybe. I gave answer to his direct question and corrected this factual error.
The place can be thought of as where this settlement should have been, as new and inexperienced reader might understand it, so I tried correct it.


A small note on the explanatory inscription:
- it was not labor camp, it was geologists settlement (mostly - summer), who worked there since the 40s.
-It was abandoned already in 1954, because in the photo from the residents of Vizhay there was helicopter Mi-1, which appeared in Ivdel (and in general in the Sverdlovsk region only in 1953 or 1954). It is possible that in 1952 they started curtail intensive work in this settlement, but it was still with the residents for some time.



This is not my doing. I used WAB coordinates for the 2nd Northern on my map.

I don't understand it. Who gave these coordinates?  twitch7

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ir_5s1TxKPbmckWlLdNRzfqb5ZE&usp=sharing

Here is the 2nd Northern the Dyatlov group went through.


WAB is showing on a map another 2nd Northern (near Severouralsk) which is further south nowhere near Dyatlov group route, because in my opinion he thought Manti is asking about that one, not the one in pink on the island of Lozva.

I wrote this so that these two villages with the same name would not be confused, as some locals did in the memories and fantasies of the 90s, when there was frenzy of interest in this case. I did not think that Manti was asking about it, I just wanted there to be no confusion in their minds when they read about something very obscure.

Nearby at 61.62515, 60.03453 is where I can actually see some houses. Is the marker on the island just slightly misplaced?
You see them now. They were not there in 1959. If you see houses they might have named a hostel and pin it on Google maps to attract tourists.

I don't understand where these coordinates came from? If Manti found this and asked what it would be, then I have explained everything in detail. But here I must necessarily add that such remote Mansi settlements are not intended for travelers to visit. Otherwise, they would have located them specifically near good roads. The old Mansi, who live there, lead a secluded life and there is no need to interfere with it. There are their younger relatives who help them with all sorts of things and products. For example, old Albina Anyamova lives in Treskolye and is helped by her relatives Valery and Nikolai (Jr.) Anyamov.
Of course, journalists and TV sometimes go there, but it's hard to say how good or bad that is.
The fact that Hungarian linguist professor Gábor Szényi from Pécs University worked there in 2013 and 2014  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9cs  with his graduate students (1 or 2 people)
 


Prof. Szényi in the village of Vizhay, in February 2014.
It was Ugro-Finnish ethnographic expedition, which yielded lot of useful science, but ordinary tourists don't do much good, in my personal opinion.
I think a large flow of travelers to this place would be bad thing rather than good thing. It disrupts their way of life. But the Mansi are hospitable people, just like any other North peoples, they will always help anyone who needs it. One only has to not abuse it when it is not necessary.
 

April 18, 2021, 07:41:04 PM
Reply #5
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Manti


The coordinates I originally asked about (61.60378, 60.01951, the island in Lozva), nobody gave, I got it from the Google Maps marker... this is on Google Maps global, not from the custom Dyatlovpass.com map (it just shows up there too).

The other one (61.62515, 60.03453, which now I know is the Mansi village "Treskolye"), also nobody gave, I got it by randomly selecting a point around where I saw houses on the satellite photos.. I was just looking for houses after realising that the other marker on the island might not really be correct as there seemed to be no houses there at all.


I can also say, I have no intention to visit this Mansi village. Currently it is also not marked on Google Maps at all, unlike "2-Y Severnyy Rudnik guesthouse"... if someone visits there, they will be surely disappointed  lol2 ... But Mansi are very interesting, in Finland we hear about them and other peoples of Siberia in school due to the language connection, although Finnish is more closely related to Komi and Erzya, if I remember correctly. I would like to hear Mansi language, but I will be content with videos on the internet.