Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Murdered => Topic started by: GeneralFailure on March 31, 2019, 05:24:25 AM

Title: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 31, 2019, 05:24:25 AM
Just searching the net for mansi/khanty traditions. Found this interesting picture
(http://www.kscnet.ru/ivs/bibl/kor/rp96p.gif)
Quote
"Sacrifices   offered   to   the   sacred hills and rocks (apa'pel,  "grandfathers")
which are regarded as guardians of roads, and protectors of hunting — are placed on their summits or slopes. These may be dogs, or antlers of sacrificed reindeer. Plate XI, Fig. 2, (opp. p. 96), represents the sacred hill, situated on the seashore, close to the settlement of Mikino, in the direction of Kamen-skoye. One of my drivers told me that this "grandfather" was very favorable to him. Once, when passing by, he had thrown a puppy to him, and on his way back he was met by a gray fox which was running to him, and which he killed with a stick.
http://www.kscnet.ru/ivs/bibl/kor/part1_5.htm (http://www.kscnet.ru/ivs/bibl/kor/part1_5.htm)

It's not about the mansi/khanty but about the koryak's traditions, but still the resemblance with the "chum" is striking:


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-020.jpg)

To me it's clear now that the "chum" is not a chum but the place of a sacrifice, which puts the entire scene on a sacred territory.

So maybe the interrogated mansi are lying about the mountain not being sacred, or they are telling the truth and the mountain is sacred for the khanty/ostiaks(was any khanty interrogated?). Because it's clear for me now that the place indeed is sacred.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2019, 11:40:31 AM
Just searching the net for mansi/khanty traditions. Found this interesting picture
(http://www.kscnet.ru/ivs/bibl/kor/rp96p.gif)
Quote
"Sacrifices   offered   to   the   sacred hills and rocks (apa'pel,  "grandfathers")
which are regarded as guardians of roads, and protectors of hunting — are placed on their summits or slopes. These may be dogs, or antlers of sacrificed reindeer. Plate XI, Fig. 2, (opp. p. 96), represents the sacred hill, situated on the seashore, close to the settlement of Mikino, in the direction of Kamen-skoye. One of my drivers told me that this "grandfather" was very favorable to him. Once, when passing by, he had thrown a puppy to him, and on his way back he was met by a gray fox which was running to him, and which he killed with a stick.
http://www.kscnet.ru/ivs/bibl/kor/part1_5.htm (http://www.kscnet.ru/ivs/bibl/kor/part1_5.htm)

It's not about the mansi/khanty but about the koryak's traditions, but still the resemblance with the "chum" is striking:


(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-pass-1959-search-020.jpg)

To me it's clear now that the "chum" is not a chum but the place of a sacrifice, which puts the entire scene on a sacred territory.

So maybe the interrogated mansi are lying about the mountain not being sacred, or they are telling the truth and the mountain is sacred for the khanty/ostiaks(was any khanty interrogated?). Because it's clear for me now that the place indeed is sacred.


CHEGLAKOV WITNESS TESTIMONY
Dyatlov Pass:
Sheet 44
PROTOCOL
witness testimony
One kilometer from the camping site of the tourists we found new Mansi stand. We couldn't see any ski tracks of the tourists around the tent. Mansi ski tracks we have seen 10 km from where the tent of the of the tourists was found.  The mountain where the tent and the dead bodies were found is not a Mansi sacred place. Mansi sacred places are very far from there.


Dyatlov Pass ; Theories ; Controversy.
Mansi chum
A Mansi chum (definition) was observed North-East from where Dyatlov group pitched their tent on the night of January 30. A trail leading to the chum was passing 200 feet from where they camped.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Star man on April 01, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
A trail leading to the chum was passing 200 feet from where they camped.

Just a thought.  If there was a ski trail only 200 feet from the camp, then is it feasible that someone armed with a gun, simply opened fire on the group from 200 feet away?  The group then panicked and fled.  The rest is history, they died while trying to survive?  The gunman never actually approaches the camp.

Regards

Star man

Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: sarapuk on April 01, 2019, 05:08:31 PM
A trail leading to the chum was passing 200 feet from where they camped.

Just a thought.  If there was a ski trail only 200 feet from the camp, then is it feasible that someone armed with a gun, simply opened fire on the group from 200 feet away?  The group then panicked and fled.  The rest is history, they died while trying to survive?  The gunman never actually approaches the camp.

Regards

Star man

With the Dyatlov Case it seems anything is possible  !  ?  What type of trail was it though, there doesnt appear to be anymore information on that. There are plenty of track ways of sorts in the Ural's, and even under snow some are discernible but what was the nature of the said trail when the Dyatlov Group was camped there  !  ?  We dont know.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: NkZ on April 01, 2019, 11:28:23 PM
A bit off topic theory but in continuity with this "native" approach.
What about a herd of reindeers? The area is still populated by the last remaining wild herds : https://www.ipae.uran.ru/sites/default/files/publications/Ранюк%20М.Н./Korytin_2001_2_eng.pdf
The antler on pole could signal the entry of a very special hunting zone (or on the contrary the zone where the herd cannot be hunted), where a "mythical" wild herd roams.
Things happen like this:
+ Herd (200 or so animals) is hunted (by men or animals, or just on the move) from an opposite side (from where the group came or where it is going) of ridge and crosses it running, tramps the tent (do reindeers do that if not frightened? maybe they didn't see it since it was half sunken in snow), leaving it in chaos and with some people with heavy injuries (head, ribs)
+ since the tent is ruined, group decides to go to the tree line (maybe it's morning and they can see the trees very well, wind has calmed and clouds are away) to find shelter
+ they make a "den" for the injured and leave them there. The 5 other start a fire that will be a landmark to come back to, 3 go back to the tent but run low on adrenaline and cannot make it. the 2 at the fire are worried about the wounded and give them their clothes (they think the fire is enough to keep warm, but it isn't and even stops: they die believing the 3 are on their way back)
+ no explanation for radioactivity (even if i like the isotope tracking of sensible personnel by kgs a good one), or "mutilations"
+ why footprints and no sign of the passage of the herd? because the herd was going along the slope towards (or from) the pass where snow was hard: reindeers would not run in a direction with "ravines"
so, no murderers, no military, no ufo, no lightning ball, no lying Mansi ... just a natural (reindeers) compelling force
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Star man on April 02, 2019, 01:55:55 AM
A trail leading to the chum was passing 200 feet from where they camped.

Just a thought.  If there was a ski trail only 200 feet from the camp, then is it feasible that someone armed with a gun, simply opened fire on the group from 200 feet away?  The group then panicked and fled.  The rest is history, they died while trying to survive?  The gunman never actually approaches the camp.

Regards

Star man

With the Dyatlov Case it seems anything is possible  !  ?  What type of trail was it though, there doesnt appear to be anymore information on that. There are plenty of track ways of sorts in the Ural's, and even under snow some are discernible but what was the nature of the said trail when the Dyatlov Group was camped there  !  ?  We dont know.

It's strange that they would not have investigated a trail only 200 feet away.

Regards

Star man
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: sarapuk on April 02, 2019, 12:13:42 PM
A trail leading to the chum was passing 200 feet from where they camped.

Just a thought.  If there was a ski trail only 200 feet from the camp, then is it feasible that someone armed with a gun, simply opened fire on the group from 200 feet away?  The group then panicked and fled.  The rest is history, they died while trying to survive?  The gunman never actually approaches the camp.

Regards


Star man

With the Dyatlov Case it seems anything is possible  !  ?  What type of trail was it though, there doesnt appear to be anymore information on that. There are plenty of track ways of sorts in the Ural's, and even under snow some are discernible but what was the nature of the said trail when the Dyatlov Group was camped there  !  ?  We dont know.

It's strange that they would not have investigated a trail only 200 feet away.

Regards

Star man

Maybe it wasnt much of a feature. And maybe they did have a look around but found nothing unusual on said trail so didnt report anything.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: sarapuk on April 02, 2019, 12:15:59 PM
A bit off topic theory but in continuity with this "native" approach.
What about a herd of reindeers? The area is still populated by the last remaining wild herds : https://www.ipae.uran.ru/sites/default/files/publications/Ранюк%20М.Н./Korytin_2001_2_eng.pdf
The antler on pole could signal the entry of a very special hunting zone (or on the contrary the zone where the herd cannot be hunted), where a "mythical" wild herd roams.
Things happen like this:
+ Herd (200 or so animals) is hunted (by men or animals, or just on the move) from an opposite side (from where the group came or where it is going) of ridge and crosses it running, tramps the tent (do reindeers do that if not frightened? maybe they didn't see it since it was half sunken in snow), leaving it in chaos and with some people with heavy injuries (head, ribs)
+ since the tent is ruined, group decides to go to the tree line (maybe it's morning and they can see the trees very well, wind has calmed and clouds are away) to find shelter
+ they make a "den" for the injured and leave them there. The 5 other start a fire that will be a landmark to come back to, 3 go back to the tent but run low on adrenaline and cannot make it. the 2 at the fire are worried about the wounded and give them their clothes (they think the fire is enough to keep warm, but it isn't and even stops: they die believing the 3 are on their way back)
+ no explanation for radioactivity (even if i like the isotope tracking of sensible personnel by kgs a good one), or "mutilations"
+ why footprints and no sign of the passage of the herd? because the herd was going along the slope towards (or from) the pass where snow was hard: reindeers would not run in a direction with "ravines"
so, no murderers, no military, no ufo, no lightning ball, no lying Mansi ... just a natural (reindeers) compelling force

Well its an interesting point about the reindeer herd. But surely an herd of reindeer would leave many traces  !  ?  Especially traces at the Tent.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Puchiko on April 02, 2019, 12:28:59 PM
A bit off topic theory but in continuity with this "native" approach.
What about a herd of reindeers? The area is still populated by the last remaining wild herds : https://www.ipae.uran.ru/sites/default/files/publications/Ранюк%20М.Н./Korytin_2001_2_eng.pdf
The antler on pole could signal the entry of a very special hunting zone (or on the contrary the zone where the herd cannot be hunted), where a "mythical" wild herd roams.
Things happen like this:
+ Herd (200 or so animals) is hunted (by men or animals, or just on the move) from an opposite side (from where the group came or where it is going) of ridge and crosses it running, tramps the tent (do reindeers do that if not frightened? maybe they didn't see it since it was half sunken in snow), leaving it in chaos and with some people with heavy injuries (head, ribs)
+ since the tent is ruined, group decides to go to the tree line (maybe it's morning and they can see the trees very well, wind has calmed and clouds are away) to find shelter
+ they make a "den" for the injured and leave them there. The 5 other start a fire that will be a landmark to come back to, 3 go back to the tent but run low on adrenaline and cannot make it. the 2 at the fire are worried about the wounded and give them their clothes (they think the fire is enough to keep warm, but it isn't and even stops: they die believing the 3 are on their way back)
+ no explanation for radioactivity (even if i like the isotope tracking of sensible personnel by kgs a good one), or "mutilations"
+ why footprints and no sign of the passage of the herd? because the herd was going along the slope towards (or from) the pass where snow was hard: reindeers would not run in a direction with "ravines"
so, no murderers, no military, no ufo, no lightning ball, no lying Mansi ... just a natural (reindeers) compelling force

Nah.
- The tent was rather intact - a few cuts, but still standing, the belongings in order.
- They would have had time to put on some shoes and clothing.
- The injuries of the Ravine4 don't correspond to trampling: little external wounds, but serious internal fractures.
- The injuries of the Ravine4 were really serious, they wouldn't have been able to walk a mile with them.
- The Ravine4 were wearing clothing of the two Yuris, suggesting the two Yuris died first (according to the investigation of hypothermia, though it has been suggested they might have actually suffocated - grey liquid coming from mouth).
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:00:43 PM
How many people do you think you need to kill 9 strong and young people by hands?
To force them go somewhere without resistance.


15? 20?

This theory is absolutely "miserable"


Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 03:01:33 PM
Hey Sarapuk!
What do you see in pictures? Elks horns??  lol2 lol2 lol2
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: gypsy on April 11, 2019, 04:13:31 PM
How many people do you think you need to kill 9 strong and young people by hands?
To force them go somewhere without resistance.


15? 20?

This theory is absolutely "miserable"

One or two if they are properly armed or have a good leverage (hostages?).
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: GeneralFailure on April 12, 2019, 01:05:27 AM
How many people do you think you need to kill 9 strong and young people by hands?
To force them go somewhere without resistance.


15? 20?

This theory is absolutely "miserable"

Only one person killing 49 sounds also "miserable" for you?  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47578798 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-47578798)
Don't underestimate the power of a gun.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Puchiko on April 12, 2019, 01:44:05 AM
Yes and we can clearly see that at Christchurch, the gun was used. That merely carrying it didn't give the gunman the power to march those people for a mile in the dark without any escaping and then to somehow cause multiple rib fractures without any external trauma.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: gypsy on April 12, 2019, 02:58:38 AM
Yes and we can clearly see that at Christchurch, the gun was used. That merely carrying it didn't give the gunman the power to march those people for a mile in the dark without any escaping and then to somehow cause multiple rib fractures without any external trauma.

"using a gun" can also mean warning shots into the air or hitting a person with the blunt end of the rifle.  That is nothing impossible and happened many times. Could explain some of the trauma, but not all of course.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: GeneralFailure on April 12, 2019, 03:31:18 AM
That merely carrying it didn't give the gunman the power to march those people for a mile in the dark without any escaping and then to somehow cause multiple rib fractures without any external trauma.

Maybe, maybe not...

For example is possible that the attackers just threatened the hikers with the guns and ordered them to leave the sacred mountain (the "chum" reveals that this indeed is a sacred place). After this, the attackers remained on the mountain to guard it, with the rifles pointed to the descending hikers. Maybe the 3 on the slope did not die on the way back, but they died waiting to see if the attackers have left. Maybe some of the other hikers climbed the cedar to see if the 3 on the slope make the sign that the area of the tent is clear and the attackers have left, and because of the cold, they fell and broke the ribs. Maybe the wounded were carried inside the den...

Or other hypothesis is that they have been beaten and tortured under the cedar...

If I remember well, 4 mansi were hunting in the same area area exactly in the same time... they reported they've seen the traces of the hikers... also the hikers were following some mansi traces... 4 "natural born" hunters armed with rifles can "convince" 9 hikers to walk 1 kilometer?

But ho can say which hypothesis is true and which is not?
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Star man on April 12, 2019, 12:41:21 PM
Maybe someone opened fire on the tent from distance and they all ran for their lives and split up later on down the slope?

Regards

Star mam
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: sarapuk on April 12, 2019, 01:29:46 PM
Hey Sarapuk!
What do you see in pictures? Elks horns??  lol2 lol2 lol2

Damage to the film  !  ?
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 13, 2019, 04:35:04 PM
Is this true? What do you think?
https://www.iksinfo.ru/stati/zagadochnie-mesta/item/685-gora-mertvetsov.html

A local resident, who participated in the search for missing tourists in Leningrad as a guide, said that in February 1961 another group of 9 people died on the mountain of the dead. These were tourists, researchers from Leningrad, who decided to find out the causes of the death of Dyatlovtsy and prove that an accident had become the whole vein.

However, they soon discovered their bodies. The scenario was similar - ripped from the inside of the tent. Wild horror on the dead faces, a similar nature of internal damage. Only this time the bodies did not lie at remote distances, but in the right circle, in the center of which was one of the tents. As in the history of Dyatlovtsy valuables were not touched, no trace of any struggle was found.

From the words of the same guide it follows that the corpses of tourists were destroyed, so as not to cause panic because of the repeated tragedy. The relatives were told that the tourists had disappeared in a completely different place where an avalanche covered them, and they could not find the bodies, and from the conductor they took a subscription to not disclose what had happened on the mountain for 25 years.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: WAB on April 13, 2019, 11:57:59 PM
I am have 1 minutes only...

Is this true? What do you think?
https://www.iksinfo.ru/stati/zagadochnie-mesta/item/685-gora-mertvetsov.html

It is traditional fake of journalists group "yellow press". Practically all from beginning to end there is lie.
1.Fairy tales and legends about evil ghosts, blood-thirsty military men, local shamans (from which now there were only memoirs), rocket tests and nuclear explosions already tell 60 years and than further themes more. There even pictures of mountains and Drakula is fake.
2.Even legends about which speak are not known Mansy, and by them from journalists last 20 years. Including 9 failures of planes, the Leningrad group travellers and etc. Only thing about what told Mansy - legend about Flood and 1 Mansy which has escaped on grief. And mountain they do not name also it very wisely. Journalists repeat all time Holatchahle, and come across on lie because it not the highest mountain in vicinity.
3.If speak about “the witness from psychiatric hospital” at once it is possible tell: «No comments!» 

A local resident, who participated in the search for missing tourists in Leningrad as a guide, said that in February 1961 another group of 9 people died on the mountain of the dead. These were tourists, researchers from Leningrad, who decided to find out the causes of the death of Dyatlovtsy and prove that an accident had become the whole vein.

It is real fake too. There was no there this group. It was found out already directly in the regional organisation of travellers by two independent persons: Evgenie Buyanov (author avalanche theory) and I.
In 1961 travellers group of agricultural university was lost on Kola peninsula about pass Korneskorch. Them were 7 persons. Other Leningrad groups which were lost in 1961 was not. As far as I know, it is echoes of history which has begun with the story "Kosmopoisk" group which studied paranormal phenomena. Over group Vadim Chernobrov supervised. From them hearings about 11 participants of Dyatlov group, carrying over bodies from other place, abnormal colour person`s face of dead human have gone (I am it is interesting, what colour at dead human face is "normal"?), mass loss of people (it is interesting, whence can be mass loss, when there the population is 1 person on 100 sq km?) and etc.

However, they soon discovered their bodies. The scenario was similar - ripped from the inside of the tent. Wild horror on the dead faces, a similar nature of internal damage. Only this time the bodies did not lie at remote distances, but in the right circle, in the center of which was one of the tents. As in the history of Dyatlovtsy valuables were not touched, no trace of any struggle was found.

From the words of the same guide it follows that the corpses of tourists were destroyed, so as not to cause panic because of the repeated tragedy. The relatives were told that the tourists had disappeared in a completely different place where an avalanche covered them, and they could not find the bodies, and from the conductor they took a subscription to not disclose what had happened on the mountain for 25 years.

Then it is clear that it is one of applicants for the next scenario for Hollywood horror films ….
Concerning subscriptions to 25 years … It is very steady fake for last 60 years. I specially interrogated participants of search about these subscriptions. Anybody from them did not give such subscription. The only thing that is in criminal case papers, these are subscriptions Maslennikov and Yarovoi (Яровой) that they should not disclose detail of consequence before the investigation termination. There articles of the law which says that it operates only before the investigation termination are specified. It is normal practice in criminal trial in all countries the information about which I could receive.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 14, 2019, 05:44:15 AM
Yeah the most of this article is pretty yellow, but an user here Northlander managed to find a book where Mansi rituals are described and death of Paulina Shneider is confirmed. I forgot where did he posted the link to that book. It was a serious anthropology book, not a newspaper or paranormal stuff.
I am not a big fan of Buyanov , I read his theory and it starts well, but there were several facts he failed to explain .. I mean, he explains them ,but in a very naive and not probable way. Also I saw him in the recent tv show on Russian television and he was really arrogant and disrespectful .
About the fireball on 31 st of March, I checked that there was a launch on 30th 22:50 UTC,which makes exactly 4 am Ural time. There are two launches one from Baikonur R-7 with apogee of 1000 km but it says launch failure, so this means that rocket didn't go up to 1000km.
On the same date there is another launch from Kapustin Yar R-12 with apogee 420 km. Having in mind where is Kapustin Yar, I don't find it possible that rocket with apogee of 420km to be visible from the pass . Especially with the size of a moon. So here Buyanov's explanation of fire balls doesn't hold ...
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Nordlander on April 14, 2019, 09:59:04 PM
Yes, here is the article where Polina Schneider is referred to. The same anthropologist has written other articles about the Khanty stories about her murder for trespassing on a sacred site. (For the Khanty it is usually a sacred island or a sacred grove hear a river--the Mansi are more interested in mountains. This fact makes me wonder about the cedar tree and speculate as to whether attackers may have chosen it as a place to march the Dyatlov group and make a sacrifice).

https://books.google.com/books?id=jZedV50h5-kC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=Polina+Schneider+Khanty&source=bl&ots=sW8YKP4bCO&sig=ACfU3U2lJ8Yzba4W9JP0I2gWKyyf6xplXA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjk68eiptHhAhVOheAKHc6qC98Q6AEwBnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Polina%20Schneider%20Khanty&f=false

There will be some more information about her in the Russian film "Angels of the Revolution," though I don't think it's available in the US yet. Here's a review:

https://variety.com/2014/film/festivals/rome-film-review-angels-of-revolution-1201336967/

Some reviews refer to her as a school teacher as well as head of the Ural Workers group, and others say she was in combat in WWII. Of course, there is myth-making happening here, but I will try to see the film anyway to see how it depicts her death. I think she was tied up and drowned. Will report back if I am able to rent it.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: WAB on April 15, 2019, 07:21:24 AM
Yeah the most of this article is pretty yellow, but an user here Northlander managed to find a book where Mansi rituals are described and death of Paulina Shneider is confirmed. I forgot where did he posted the link to that book. It was a serious anthropology book, not a newspaper or paranormal stuff.

Unfortunately I have not seen direct reference on this book, be exact the full text is necessary to me. It is possible state all as was or turn upside down. The question in what purpose was put by the author. Completely make the objective analysis it is impossible because it can only the direct participant of the events who have been not interested in advertising of any party events, but author obviously is not such. Because he looks to events from its site.
I will try to read more and then I will write addition.

I am not a big fan of Buyanov , I read his theory and it starts well, but there were several facts he failed to explain .. I mean, he explains them ,but in a very naive and not probable way. Also I saw him in the recent tv show on Russian television and he was really arrogant and disrespectful .

I am not the supporter of the theory of Buyanov too. On the contrary, I will be one of the most rigid critics its theory. But many questions which he stated in the book, are written objectively, including with my help. For example, questions rocket technics. In it, I am is professional.

About the fireball on 31 st of March, I checked that there was a launch on 30th 22:50 UTC,which makes exactly 4 am Ural time. There are two launches one from Baikonur R-7 with apogee of 1000 km but it says launch failure, so this means that rocket didn't go up to 1000km.
On the same date there is another launch from Kapustin Yar R-12 with apogee 420 km. Having in mind where is Kapustin Yar, I don't find it possible that rocket with apogee of 420km to be visible from the pass . Especially with the size of a moon. So here Buyanov's explanation of fire balls doesn't hold ...

I am write briefly:
1.As to ballistics and starts rocket R-7 you have written correctly all.
2.For this purpose, what on N. Ural Mountains (in area Dyatlov pass ) it was visible loop of this start, it is completely not obligatory have height of lifting 1000 km. Especially, if the fate that on final site the engine any more does not work. If I correctly remember the approximate calculations for such visibility there is enough height about 250 km at removal of 2000 km. It corresponds to trajectory of its flight concerning place events. And if observe this phenomenon at height 1000 m above sea level the smaller height lifting rocket is required still. If it necessary I am can give the scheme elementary geometrical calculation.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: sarapuk on April 15, 2019, 01:47:51 PM
Is this true? What do you think?
https://www.iksinfo.ru/stati/zagadochnie-mesta/item/685-gora-mertvetsov.html

A local resident, who participated in the search for missing tourists in Leningrad as a guide, said that in February 1961 another group of 9 people died on the mountain of the dead. These were tourists, researchers from Leningrad, who decided to find out the causes of the death of Dyatlovtsy and prove that an accident had become the whole vein.

However, they soon discovered their bodies. The scenario was similar - ripped from the inside of the tent. Wild horror on the dead faces, a similar nature of internal damage. Only this time the bodies did not lie at remote distances, but in the right circle, in the center of which was one of the tents. As in the history of Dyatlovtsy valuables were not touched, no trace of any struggle was found.

From the words of the same guide it follows that the corpses of tourists were destroyed, so as not to cause panic because of the repeated tragedy. The relatives were told that the tourists had disappeared in a completely different place where an avalanche covered them, and they could not find the bodies, and from the conductor they took a subscription to not disclose what had happened on the mountain for 25 years.

Well there doesnt appear to be much information on the story.  And I would have thought there would have been a similar interest by the media  !  ?
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 15, 2019, 04:15:53 PM
Ah yes ,I remembered those calculations about the R7. You don't have to search for them. I thought that "failure launch " means the rocket didn't at all. In Wikipedia there wasn't an explanation if it has lifted to 250 km. But I compared the witnesses description of the event to what I saw in the video of Space X launch and their words match exactly how a rocket launch looks. So about the fire ball on 31st March we are sure what it was.
Are there other fire ball witnesses? If my memory is correct there was one from 7th February . I must check again the case files for it.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Ehtnisba on April 15, 2019, 04:20:54 PM
Is this true? What do you think?
https://www.iksinfo.ru/stati/zagadochnie-mesta/item/685-gora-mertvetsov.html

A local resident, who participated in the search for missing tourists in Leningrad as a guide, said that in February 1961 another group of 9 people died on the mountain of the dead. These were tourists, researchers from Leningrad, who decided to find out the causes of the death of Dyatlovtsy and prove that an accident had become the whole vein.

However, they soon discovered their bodies. The scenario was similar - ripped from the inside of the tent. Wild horror on the dead faces, a similar nature of internal damage. Only this time the bodies did not lie at remote distances, but in the right circle, in the center of which was one of the tents. As in the history of Dyatlovtsy valuables were not touched, no trace of any struggle was found.

From the words of the same guide it follows that the corpses of tourists were destroyed, so as not to cause panic because of the repeated tragedy. The relatives were told that the tourists had disappeared in a completely different place where an avalanche covered them, and they could not find the bodies, and from the conductor they took a subscription to not disclose what had happened on the mountain for 25 years.

Well there doesnt appear to be much information on the story.  And I would have thought there would have been a similar interest by the media  !  ?

Yes there isn't any information , but they explained it ,of course, with a cover up... Honestly if there was a cover up how would an unknown journalists know about it... Highly unprobable but ,we must doubt everything  .
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: sarapuk on April 24, 2019, 01:15:04 PM
Is this true? What do you think?
https://www.iksinfo.ru/stati/zagadochnie-mesta/item/685-gora-mertvetsov.html

A local resident, who participated in the search for missing tourists in Leningrad as a guide, said that in February 1961 another group of 9 people died on the mountain of the dead. These were tourists, researchers from Leningrad, who decided to find out the causes of the death of Dyatlovtsy and prove that an accident had become the whole vein.

However, they soon discovered their bodies. The scenario was similar - ripped from the inside of the tent. Wild horror on the dead faces, a similar nature of internal damage. Only this time the bodies did not lie at remote distances, but in the right circle, in the center of which was one of the tents. As in the history of Dyatlovtsy valuables were not touched, no trace of any struggle was found.

From the words of the same guide it follows that the corpses of tourists were destroyed, so as not to cause panic because of the repeated tragedy. The relatives were told that the tourists had disappeared in a completely different place where an avalanche covered them, and they could not find the bodies, and from the conductor they took a subscription to not disclose what had happened on the mountain for 25 years.

Well there doesnt appear to be much information on the story.  And I would have thought there would have been a similar interest by the media  !  ?

Yes there isn't any information , but they explained it ,of course, with a cover up... Honestly if there was a cover up how would an unknown journalists know about it... Highly unprobable but ,we must doubt everything  .

Yes thats an explanation I suppose, especially in the Soviet Union days when the Media would have been carefully monitored. Then its down to local gossip and rumour etc, but even that could have been censored. Just all adds to the difficulty of getting at the truth in this Dyatlov Incident.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: NkZ on April 30, 2019, 03:00:01 AM
I didn't find info on the location of the "chum", so here is my guess based on :
+ the 1km range from the tent
+ the background of the photo
If correct this location is at the crossing of a trail (did it exist then ?) below the tent (200 feet?) and one going down towards the stream.
I've made an ugly recollection of general map+WAB "map of cedar-ravine area"+ google earth: WAB suggested that the 4 had a "crash" lower than the cedar before moving in it's direction: the position he suggests sort of fits (with all imprecisions of my map pasting...) with the trail coming down from the "chum"
So scenario:
+"wild" tribe attacks and pulls everyone out of the tent
+ they are led towards chum, but 5 escape and go down to cedar to hide (but why would they light a fire ....)
+ 4 are taken to chum but somehow escape run down towards ravine, fall and get hurt
+ ...
all in all doesn't look very credible...

(https://i.ibb.co/sy5mkMz/dyatlov-002.png) (https://ibb.co/FgsxNjC)

(https://i.ibb.co/BwYqh6q/dyatlov-001.png) (https://ibb.co/JCS5Yp5)
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Nordlander on May 03, 2019, 08:37:02 PM
The 1933 mass murder of eight Soviets by the Khanty is well documented, mostly by Finnish scholars wno write in English and who can interview the Natives in their language. The Khanty and the Nentsy (Samoyed) were both outraged by a woman trespassing on their sacred island. Their languages are of course much closer to Finnish than to Russian.

As people have pointed out, though, that event was a long time before 1959. Still, there are ongoing problems with the Khanty and Nentsy resisting incorporation into Russia: right now they are protesting about corporate attempts to take their oil resources. (They have never really gotten along with the Mansi, who are more assimilationist). Tensions are also percolating at the Manupupuner Rocks, sacred to the Komi. Komi guides are posted at the rocks, but tourists have still been climbing the rocks and chipping away pieces of them. So they are going to shut down access to them for a while, which sounds similar to what allegedly happened to Dyatlov Pass. One of the demands the Khanty had was to remove Soviets from their land, which would have been ever more of a problem in 1959 because of all the sports tourists.

As for the chum, it's impossible to tell whether it is Khanty or Mansi. But it may be relevant that a ritual slaughter of reindeer preceded the mass slaughter of the Soviet brigade (the one near Dyatlov Pass commemorated the killing of a moose, as others have noted).

I think an earlier structure may be more relevant to the incident than the chum. The hikers took photos of a "sky burial" of a Native shaman on sticks. I wasn't able to find out if it was prohibited to take pictures of this grave, but it IS forbidden to have women near it. In fact, one of the reasons it is elevated it to keep it above the contamination that women can carry. Khanty keep their totems or "idols" in attics, and women aren't allowed to go there. The Soviets tried to collectivize these peoples and house them in apartment blocks, with was anathema to them since if a woman occupied a higher floor she would pollute the entire building.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: NkZ on May 04, 2019, 12:01:11 AM
We are definitly in a very special landscape! I wonder if we have a translation of the « Mansi » signs the Group took pictures of ?
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Nordlander on May 05, 2019, 02:32:41 PM
NkZ, I saw an account of the Native signs somewhere but didn't write them down. From what I remember, they specified what animals had been tracked there and who had passed by when. I'll post if I come across the info again.

Another thing I wondered about was the presence of the rock formation at the bottom of the pass. The Manunpupuner Rocks are holy to the Komi, so I was thinking that perhaps this formation might have been sacred to a related tribe. The Mansi were probably truthful that the pass wasn't sacred to them, but that doesn't mean it wasn't sacred to other indigenous people. (And then we have the Khanty denying he made the comment about the "five Khanty wild men" who lived near the pass--he didn't want trouble with them after the authorities left). As per questions of who started the fire, I have speculated that it could have been the attackers, especially if we see the hikers as being marched down to this grove. (Khanty had sacred groves)


Another possible point of connection is the cut clothing. The 1933 murders involved forcing the Soviets to strip. Barenness seems to have been part of the ritual sacrifice. There were no knives found at the three murder scenes, although one investigator added Yuri K's later, perhaps as a result of pressure to make the scenes look less incoherent. The recycling of clothes was obviously for warmth, but the shreds of clothes that supposedly led the searchers to the ravine look suspicious to me.

Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: NkZ on May 06, 2019, 08:08:38 AM
Hi Nordlander, thanks for the insights. For the mansion signs there is a mention in the group's diary about it on 30/01: "Mansi signs tell about animals they saw, resting stops and other things. It is particularly interesting to solve its meaning for the hikers as well as historians." But doesn't this look more like a phrase coming from a book rather than real capacity to decipher these signs ?
I'm amazed by the number of nations and sub-nations in the area:
Mansi, i would rule out, even if i'm 99% sure they are concealing something. Komi, they seem to have been "christened" in the 19th century.  Khanty, there's the episode and all the signs you raised. Forest Nenets seem a bit too much on the east. Nenets "Komisized", just close ... not forgetting "old believers" and who knows who!
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: BottledBrunette on July 30, 2019, 04:40:52 PM
I'm pretty sure I will be laughed off and I have mentioned this particular "theory" before, but, the picture of the teepee looking thing and sacred land reminds me AGAIN, of a psychic talking to the nine hikers, but, Lyudmila was the main speaker, who told the psychic that a tribe that no one knew about and spoke a language they had never heard before, attacked their tent with spears and perhaps other weapons, and beat the men up at the front of the tent, which would explain the unexplainable wounds some of the guys and the two girls have, and that the reason why they were killed is because the hikers were on land that belonged to them and they weren't welcomed there, and they made them go off to freeze to death.  I know people don't take stock in psychics, but, seriously, after reading all the theories and surmises people make, this makes the most sense.  The unexplainable reason why they left the tent, some with warmer clothes and shoes and socks than others, etc.  This thread sort of proves the story the psychic tells of why they were killed.  They were killed by an unknown tribe who didn't want people on their land.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Monika on July 31, 2019, 01:25:31 AM
I'm pretty sure I will be laughed off and I have mentioned this particular "theory" before, but, the picture of the teepee looking thing and sacred land reminds me AGAIN, of a psychic talking to the nine hikers, but, Lyudmila was the main speaker, who told the psychic that a tribe that no one knew about and spoke a language they had never heard before, attacked their tent with spears and perhaps other weapons, and beat the men up at the front of the tent, which would explain the unexplainable wounds some of the guys and the two girls have, and that the reason why they were killed is because the hikers were on land that belonged to them and they weren't welcomed there, and they made them go off to freeze to death.  I know people don't take stock in psychics, but, seriously, after reading all the theories and surmises people make, this makes the most sense.  The unexplainable reason why they left the tent, some with warmer clothes and shoes and socks than others, etc.  This thread sort of proves the story the psychic tells of why they were killed.  They were killed by an unknown tribe who didn't want people on their land.

Hello,

I believe in some people's psychic abilities. And automatic writing can be a valuable way of communicating with the dead.
However, there are many charlatans who want to impress (my experience). Therefore, I only believe in the psychic medium I know personally. All similar information gathered over the Internet is doubtful.
By the way, I have seen others people on Youtube video claiming to be psychic medium and that they psychically/spiritually connected to this event or to the dead. And one person claims that they have been attacked by UFOs, others claims that the toxic gas was released on them from the rocket. So let's choose from it!  wink1
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: BottledBrunette on August 04, 2019, 11:38:44 PM
So what are you waiting for, then?  Ask your medium friend to do a session or whatever its called with the nine hikers and find out what really happened. 
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: jarrfan on August 21, 2019, 05:57:50 PM
I have been thinking about the murder theory. There was mention made in one of the theories that the group was murdered because the government found information the hikers may have been planning to flee the country. What makes me think this is possible is the oldest member of the group, Semyon.

Perhaps there was a secret the guys were up to and fighting about, whether they should leave with Semyon as he had planned but did not mention it to anyone until after they started out. He may have had connections to people where they were going to end up that would help them cross the border into Finland. In short, he was in on the hike at the last minute and may have brought a trail of suspicion with him.

It is 1,776 miles to the Finnish border from Ortoten so they definitely would have had to have assistance from someone.

Perhaps things went terribly wrong because his secret was known and the government thought this would be an appropriate way to deal with the hikers before they met  their contacts, not really knowing if all the hikers were planning on fleeing.

Yuri Yudin may not have been aware of it when he turned back, or maybe he turned back because he knew the plan would fail. This is all conjecture.

The diary of Lyudia expressed her depression and anxiety. The long and arduous trip with bad accommodations and food may have made Semyon want to share his secret plan with the male hikers.

They kept up the charade of the hike fearing someone might have found out about it even storing food, and they were being followed. Perhaps that was another reason they did not take the stove, the smoke would be easily detected by military.

If they were approached with lights and guns and peeked out to see that their plan was discovered, this would be a good reasonf for the small cuts in the wall of the tent and their leaving the tent.
 
With the injuries of the ravine hikers, I cannot imagine any way they could even perform digging of the dens with their deadly wounds of chest injuries, Lyuda's heart with massive hemorrhage of the right atria.

I would think these injuries would have had to been inflicted at their death site, since they would be basically in the lasts breaths of life.

Their murder would also explain the severe beating and torture as the government tried to find out who they were meeting in Ortoten and most of them did not know and were beaten so badly hoping they would give up names, which they probably didn't even know.


Perhaps the two Yuri's were left alone at the fire for a short time thinking they could warm up and ty would be able to talk their way out of it but their torturers knew they would not be able to get away so they continued the torture on the other hikers and returned to finish them off, or vice versa.


Dyatlov and the other two found appearing to be crawling toward the tent may have escaped much of the torture and tried to help their felllow hikers, even taking some clothing from the 2 Yuri's down to them to show the agents who were interrogating the ravine members they wanted to help and wanted no one to be harmed, thinking maybe they would not be and tried to convince the government people they were all innocent, which many may have been.

I don't agree with the theory of the kataballic wind in that no matter if there was this wind, it would still not be any reason for the injuries to the hikers.

I am throwing this out for review and thank you for any information to dispute this possibility... Jarrfan.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: BottledBrunette on August 22, 2019, 09:07:00 PM
Wow, that is one interesting and very plausible theory.  It makes sense.  But, Lyuda was a staunch, poster child for communism, so, can't see her wanting to leave sunny Russia, so if there were going to be any defections, they sure as heck wouldn't tell her for fear of being turned in.  But, I can see your point and its very interesting, indeed.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: jarrfan on August 22, 2019, 09:31:53 PM
I agree Lyuda probably did not know until the government showed up, then they were all suspect. Perhaps why she had such brutal injuries, they were trying to get her to confess and she kept saying she knew nothing about it.

This may be the answer to the 4th camera no one knew about. If you are leaving the country, maybe Semyon thought he might be able to use this camera to sell or perhaps the people he was planning on meeting in  Ortolan asked him for one? Up for grabs on that one.

Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on August 22, 2019, 09:43:33 PM
This rumor started by the paranoid communist mentality of the University leaders. They instructed the search students to report back immediately if they find any evidence the DP group attempt to defect.  The issue is, there has never been any evidence... Just paranoia.  In addition, they would have had to travel some 1000 kilometers or more on foot to the Arctic ocean to be picked up by a submarine.   nea1

The Russians stole top secret nuke information via 9 spies in the Manhattan project.  Point being, the US didn't need to risk a billion dollar submarine to extract a few collage students in 1959 regardless of their nuke knowledge.  However, the Russian people were made paranoid through communist propaganda that the US has infiltrated everything and are the boogieman and scape-goat for common state fookups.

There are people still today that think Russia is responsible for everything they don't like.... So it goes.
Title: Re: Murdered for entering into a sacred place
Post by: Charles on February 11, 2022, 01:18:34 AM
To me it's clear now that the "chum" is not a chum but the place of a sacrifice,
You are absolutely right.

which puts the entire scene on a sacred territory.
There are places that are more sacred than others, as gods are not related to with the same deference by the believers themselves. There might be "the" sacred moutain (the one, the oldest, the first), a sacred mountain, a place where a big bloody sacrifice once happened, a place where some common small sacrifices are repeated... these places are not "sacred territory" in the same way. But as long as a big animal such an elk was the victim at the sacrifice rite, yes, indeed, it is "sacred territory".

So maybe the interrogated mansi are lying about the mountain not being sacred, or they are telling the truth and the mountain is sacred for the khanty/ostiaks(was any khanty interrogated?). Because it's clear for me now that the place indeed is sacred.
Maybe they understood the question as "Is it the sacred mountain ?". If the question was "Is there any sacred place in the mountain" ? They might have answered "Oh yes, plenty of them !". But more probably they kept silent because the names of the mountain were enough, shouting loudly enough their religious meaning : "mount of the death" and "don't go there"... are immemorial ways of naming "sacred territory". Being asked if the mountain named "don't go there" was sacred territory should have been a strange experiment... a kind of permission given to make any answer whatsover to such dumb people (Are they making fun of us ? Their question contains the answer !). It's like when the French rescue mission reached Vanikoro and asked about La Pérouse : the native began their story with "Long ago, a big canot arrived from the sea and ghosts landed..." For two centuries, the French came back wondering about the fate of La Pérouse but the answer was given at the very first sentence, "ghosts" landed means "we killed the strangers". The descendant of native people keep silent now or make fancy answers and the French hope that they will speak in the end (they keep silent because everything was said from day one)... These people are not satisfied with the truth, what can we give them ?