July 04, 2022, 03:02:06 AM
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Author Topic: Possible sexual assault?  (Read 1280 times)

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January 06, 2022, 04:02:18 PM
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ElizabethHarris


I've always wondered if this was also a sexual attack upon one or both women. I know the autopsy disputes this for Zina but I don't entirely trust those autopsy results. Seems like the kind of thing authorities might want to omit back then. Just as they "omitted" the fact that a serial rapist/murderer had killed 100 plus people before the citizens even knew about it. Soviets were good about withholding information from their own people. But we'll never know.
 

January 06, 2022, 07:55:56 PM
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Manti


If it was sexual assault, what do you think is more likely? Someone from the group having committed it or an outsider?
 

January 07, 2022, 04:43:33 AM
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ElizabethHarris


An outsider, no question. Def NOT any of the 9.
 

January 07, 2022, 08:59:20 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Upon looking into this further, there is NO evidence of sexual assault on either woman. This idea is therefore debunked.
 

January 08, 2022, 11:02:07 AM
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Manti


Yes, the autopsies state that both Lyuda and Zina were virgins. When I read it, I had some doubts about this (due to their age), but the 1950s were different times...

By the way, the pathologist even checked for signs of rape on the men. Again, the case files are highly recommended reading.. on this topic Zolotaryov's autopsy is probably the one containing some surprising information for me... anyway, nothing much significant.
 

January 08, 2022, 04:04:13 PM
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ElizabethHarris


You're right, I think it would be unusual for the 50s if they were unmarried and not virgins. Whatever happened here, at the very least thank god they didn't have to go through that...
 

January 14, 2022, 03:26:56 PM
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Jean Daniel Reuss



              Reply #3
Upon looking into this further, there is NO evidence of sexual assault on either woman. This idea is therefore debunked.

Hold on, not so fast.  I believe, on the contrary, that we can find subtle but important clues in the topic=433.0
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.0
    Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death

By the way, it is not a strange premonition but merely a feminine intuition and sensivity.

The complete change in Dubinina's behavior and personality after January 25 is a fact of psychological nature, both proven and extraordinary, which is essential.

In order to understand the DPI, you must give it your full attention and not overlook it.

I modify a little and select some passage from BottledBrunette's  post to make you understand me.

August 26, 2019, 08:36:05 AM   Reply #16
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg6905#msg6905

[Very young, sensitive and inexperienced girls] who are sexually assaulted, ... by attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, their personalities change.....She said [during the group's sojourn in Vizhay, on January 25 and 26] something what was construed as being above her place or snotty, what have you, to one of the men, and he tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow. Sometimes or often  vulnerable young ladies may undergo profound psychological changes in their personalities.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc. That was why she wrote she was so angry as heck and she felt horrible, the place was horrible. 

She thought she would get over it, but, didn't, and that's why she was so 'hostile' and not wanting to participate, help with the chores, hiding out from the rest of the group, stopping any kind of writing in her personal diaries.

Dubinina was psychologically disturbed, but the other 8 guys who were preoccupied with other things did not notice anything.

As concerns Kolgomorova, she probably sensed the hostile atmosphere of Vizhay,  but the entry in her diary is particularly difficult to interpret...

"I talked a lot about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all nonsense.".


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 
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January 14, 2022, 05:10:46 PM
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marieuk


You make some very good points.  I really think something was going on with Lyuda, because she was behaving out of  character.  Maybe she felt let down by the rest of the group in some way also.  The next sentence in Zena's diary is interesting "But again the words of Volt come to mind. How well did he say it".  There was a writer called Volt - is that who she's referring to?  Anyone any idea?
 

January 16, 2022, 05:40:17 PM
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ElizabethHarris


In a mystery such as this, with so many questions abounding, of course we are going to come up with certain speculative scenarios or explanations but sticking to factual evidence (as hard as it is here) is our best course. Could one of the girls have been fondled at Vizhay, anything is possible, but my point was that perhaps whoever killed them had an original sexual motive because there were 2 women with the group. When the ME checked for signs of sexual assault, he found none and even went so far as to conclude that neither woman was or had been sexually active. Ever. So that's why I debunked my original idea that this was somehow a sexual crime. A lot has been made about Lyuda's sudden strange behavior that was out of character for her and how this ties into the deaths but I think it's much more plausible that this was a young girl who was probably very, very tired as they all were and after spending as much time together with the group as she did, in very close quarters no less, plus the normal mental/physical exhaustion that accompanies such an undertaking, her behavior makes perfect sense to me. I know that if I went hiking in abysmal conditions for weeks with 8 of my friends, I would have moments of aggravation/bitchiness/ and needing my own space. When I look at this story, I try to put the facts into the most explainable terms as possible. Ludya being exhausted and probably, at least temporarily, sick of her companions likely made for her behavior change. And that too, is speculation, but it just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.
 

January 16, 2022, 10:19:06 PM
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Ziljoe


In a mystery such as this, with so many questions abounding, of course we are going to come up with certain speculative scenarios or explanations but sticking to factual evidence (as hard as it is here) is our best course. Could one of the girls have been fondled at Vizhay, anything is possible, but my point was that perhaps whoever killed them had an original sexual motive because there were 2 women with the group. When the ME checked for signs of sexual assault, he found none and even went so far as to conclude that neither woman was or had been sexually active. Ever. So that's why I debunked my original idea that this was somehow a sexual crime. A lot has been made about Lyuda's sudden strange behavior that was out of character for her and how this ties into the deaths but I think it's much more plausible that this was a young girl who was probably very, very tired as they all were and after spending as much time together with the group as she did, in very close quarters no less, plus the normal mental/physical exhaustion that accompanies such an undertaking, her behavior makes perfect sense to me. I know that if I went hiking in abysmal conditions for weeks with 8 of my friends, I would have moments of aggravation/bitchiness/ and needing my own space. When I look at this story, I try to put the facts into the most explainable terms as possible. Ludya being exhausted and probably, at least temporarily, sick of her companions likely made for her behavior change. And that too, is speculation, but it just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.

You have a serious point here . If I was stuck in a tent with you, I might kick off!! 
 

January 17, 2022, 10:05:04 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Oh I agree. I think the two of us would be spraying each other with wolverine juice until one of us passed out.  quiet1 (said with love...lol)
 

January 17, 2022, 04:00:15 PM
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Jean Daniel Reuss



              Reply #8
................................
 I think it's much more plausible that this was a young girl who was probably very, very tired as they all were and after spending as much time together with the group as she did, in very close quarters no less, plus the normal mental/physical exhaustion that accompanies such an undertaking, her behavior makes perfect sense to me. I know that if I went hiking in abysmal conditions for weeks with 8 of my friends, I would have moments of aggravation/bitchiness/ and needing my own space. When I look at this story, I try to put the facts into the most explainable terms as possible. Ludya being exhausted and probably, at least temporarily, sick of her companions likely made for her behavior change. And that too, is speculation, but it just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.


I agree with you, ElizabethHarris , that the hikers were murdered.

But I totally disagree with what you wrote in Reply #8: you are going down a wrong path.
I don't have the same view as you on what the mentality and enthusiasm of young Soviet sportsmen during the Krushchev Thaw period (1953-1964) might have been.

Dyatlov had wisely selected the participants of his group (except Zolotaryov who was imposed).
The 2 girls and 7 boys were well prepared physically, morally and mentally.
They had all passed at least some winter category II and had proven themselves on previous tours
https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks

The ski stages from 28 January to 1 February were short, the nights of rest were long (since at the end of January at 61 degrees north latitude the days are short).

  None of the hikers were unusually tired. The hike went normally even if the soft snow slowed down the progression (but category III is mainly a test of resistance and adaptation to the climatic conditions, not of speed).
The hikers could even reserve some of the available time for chatting and taking humorous photos.

(Yuri Yudin, slightly bothered by sciatic pain, voluntarily gave up this ride so as not to risk slowing down the others.
I say "slightly" because apparently he had no difficulty in returning to Vizhay alone).

So in my opinion Dubinina was not physically exhausted, her torment was of a different nature. This is what BottledBrunette found out thanks to her feminine intuition.

[It just makes sense to me, putting myself in her shoes.  --->

I rather think that you fail to put yourself in Dubinina's shoes, simply because :

You did not live in the USSR between 1938 and 1959.
You did not spend your early years in Arkhangelsk: 60° 33' north latitude
You did not receive a rifle bullet in the leg far from an aid station.
You have not participated in 6 hikes organised by the UPI Route Commission, 4 of which were Category II.
You do not understand that to obtain category III was to be part of a kind of moral elite which demonstrates that thanks to its mental strength and its will it (this elite) is able to overcome without weakness material difficulties and physical sufferings.
   etc...etc.

              Reply #9
You have a serious point here . If I was stuck in a tent with you, I might kick off!! 

You have a serious point here ---> So you seem to agree with ElizabethHarris (reply #8)

If I was stuck in a tent with you, I might kick off!! ---> Your wording is really too concise for me.
As I use automatic translators, even with "DeepL.com/en/translator"  which brings nuances and variants in the translations, I do not understand what you want to express here.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

January 18, 2022, 03:42:02 AM
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ElizabethHarris


Very true, as an American who is not a professional hiker I do not understand either culture or experience. I was just looking at it from the point of a young girl, hiker or not. In Teddy's book, she stated that the hikers were typical young people, singing, having fun and 'looking for love.' It seems more likely to me that her reasons for being sulky were less ominous and more of a normal emotional reaction for a young woman, who knows for what reason, but of course I speculate as we all must. But thank you so much for your insight! Russian culture fascinates me and I want to learn as much as I can.

Oh and Ziljoe does not agree with me on the post. He's trying to insult me so you aren't missing anything of value with his remark.

I look forward to reading more of your posts!
 

January 21, 2022, 04:43:27 PM
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Ziljoe


Very true, as an American who is not a professional hiker I do not understand either culture or experience. I was just looking at it from the point of a young girl, hiker or not. In Teddy's book, she stated that the hikers were typical young people, singing, having fun and 'looking for love.' It seems more likely to me that her reasons for being sulky were less ominous and more of a normal emotional reaction for a young woman, who knows for what reason, but of course I speculate as we all must. But thank you so much for your insight! Russian culture fascinates me and I want to learn as much as I can.

Oh and Ziljoe does not agree with me on the post. He's trying to insult me so you aren't missing anything of value with his remark.

I look forward to reading more of your posts!

I don't think it's anything to do with sexual assault. It has been discussed previously. No intention to insult you .
 

February 12, 2022, 08:19:38 AM
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Charles


Hello Jean Daniel Reuss

None of the hikers were unusually tired.

It is a completely different picture we can imagine according to the diaries :

- LYUDA DUBININA DIARY 25 and 26 january

The mood sank. In general, I am very, very sad.
Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell.


At this level, it is called depression and has impact on physical abilities.

- ZINAYDA’S DIARY 28

Of course, the backpack is somewhat heavy. But it's possible to go. The first day is always difficult.

For Zinayda, the backpack is so heavy she considers the question of possibility/impossibility to carry it. She does not write : "this heavy weight will slow me down" nor "Skiing won't be comfortable with such a weight", she considers the possibility to carry the weight, in absolute. She says thus she was at her limit, and from the very beginning of the hike...

- UNKNOWN DIARY January 30.

In the evening it was decided that we will leave the tent exactly 8 minutes after waking up. Therefore, all have been awake and waiting for the command. But it is useless. Around 9:30 in the morning we began slowly to rise. Nick T. is joking about something in the morning. Everyone is reluctant to get up.

Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. Nick Tibo changed his clothes. He began to write a diary. The law is that until all the work is done, do not approach the fire. And so they had a long argument, of who will sew the tent. Finally K. Tibo gave up and took a needle. Lyuda remained seated. And we sewed the hole (and there were so many that there was enough work for all except two attendants and Lyuda.


Lyuda can't keep the pace, but the all group is already struggling to get up in the morning. They fail to complete the tasks they (or the leader) gave themselves in the ideal... Typical communist gap between plan and reality...

- GROUP DIARY 31 January 1959

We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit.

They are so tired they have a hard time to set camp at the end of the day.

The conditions seems to have been too difficult and the daily steps too long for the hikers.

The 2 girls and 7 boys were well prepared physically, morally and mentally.

It is not correct. According to the diaries, they had many arguments, and serious ones. Conflict was raising easily, repeatedly. And for an expedition in extreme conditions, this is not acceptable. I was personally very passionate about offshore sailing when I was young: it is a matter of safety not to indulge in conflicts. You behave yourself when in a crew on the ocean, in high moutain or artic conditions, you don't behave like in everyday life. But the group of Dyatlov's hikers didn't have any concern whatsoever about team cohesion.

- GROUP DIARY January 28

Yurka couldn't stand the heat and after laying down for 1-2 min, he got up and moved to the second section cursing and accusing us of treason. After that they still argued about something for a long time

- ZINAYDA’S DIARY 28.2.58

Last night the boys made stupid jokes. In my opinion, if we don't pay attention to them, maybe they will be less rude.

Igor was rude the whole evening, I just couldn't recognize him

- ZINAYDA’S DIARY 30.2.59 We go on Auspiya

Burned mittens 2 and Yurkin's quilted jacket. He cursed a lot.

- UNKNOWN DIARY January 30.

"Volunteers" (S. Kolevatov and K. Tibo are repeating their duties as a punishment for slowing the group yesterday)

We give him a tangerine, which he immediately divided into 8 pieces (Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner). So another day of our trek went well.


Yurka, Zinayda, Lyuda, S. Kolevatov and K. Tibo experienced humiliation during the hike... they were not only under pressure of harsh weather conditions, but they also had to deal with inter-personal issues inside the group. That means the group was weak and even weakening...

And the sentence "So another day of our trek went well." has obviously to be understood rhetorically and ironically : So another day of our trek went bad.


The statement that the group was "well prepared physically, morally and mentally" is false. They were at the limits of their abilities, and if any serious incident occurred, they would have been in very deep trouble, whatever the nature of the incident.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2022, 06:15:40 AM by Charles »
First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
 
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