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Author Topic: Mansi Hypothesis  (Read 22137 times)

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February 10, 2022, 03:47:32 PM
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Charles

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Charles replaced all his posts with "nothing here" before deleting his account in the forum, but you can still see some of them in the quotes of the posts of other people. I understand to leave the forum, but why deleting his words, doesn't he stand by them anymore?

This is Teddy cleaning his posts btw, like I have nothing better to do on the first day of 2023.

Here is an archived copy of his post from Jun 27, 2022.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2023, 06:23:09 AM by Teddy »
 
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February 11, 2022, 12:59:24 PM
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Manti


I think this hypothesis is viable and needs to be explored more. For example, are there other records of human sacrifice among the Siberian indigenous cultures?


(By the way my name is just a Finnish name, not related to "mansi")


 

February 17, 2022, 08:06:17 PM
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Manti


"Sori" might indeed mean pass (basing this on the distant linguistic relation between Finnish and Mansi).

But "Purlakhtym"? What is the source for this?


 

February 18, 2022, 08:32:48 PM
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Manti


Now that I was thinking about all this, I remembered that one of the Mansi allegedly made a joke about "sacrificing a Russian baby", but nobody laughed. And also I have read in the interview with the modern Mansi rapper, that he had been told by his grandfather that at the bear ceremony, he has to dance on the dead bear.... Hmm, and we have victims with broken ribcages.....


 

December 09, 2022, 02:29:36 PM
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Зайцев


Quote
name
Purlakhtym-Sori
description
Mansi Пурлахтым-Сори means “Pass for Sacrifices”.

First map on the page : https://dyatlovpass.com/maps

Mansi also had "sacred lakes" were the used to drown victims. All sacred lake are filled with victims, whatever the culture and continent.
Dear, you are already fantasizing. The Mansi did not have any lakes where they drowned their victims. Mansi sacrifices are exclusively deer. They used to sacrifice roosters and horses.
The only version that accuses the Mansi is the version of Elena Dmitrievskaya from Russia. A more fantastic version is hard to come up with. In her version, the shaman ate the tongues of two tourists and drank Zolotarev's blood.
Such versions unsubstantiated insult the whole nation. This slander must be held accountable.
==
Это вы уже фантазируете. Нет и не было у манси никаких озёр, где они топили своих жертв. Жертвоприношения у манси исключительно оленями. Раньше приносили в жертву петухов и лошадей.
Единственная версия, обвиняющая манси - это версия Елены Дмитриевской из России. Более фантастической версии трудно придумать. В её версии шаман съел языки двум туристам и выпил кровь Золотарёва.
Подобные версии бездоказательно оскорбляют целый народ. За эту клевету нужно нести ответственность.
Шапокляк сдвинутая старуха

The most documented version of the "Battle Mole Ricochet" at the link: https://dyatlovpass1.ru/viewtopic.php?id=6#p11
 

December 09, 2022, 09:53:13 PM
Reply #5
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Зайцев


Charles, why are you giving examples that have nothing to do with Mansi? So give at least one example when it was the Mansi who sacrificed a person
Шапокляк сдвинутая старуха

The most documented version of the "Battle Mole Ricochet" at the link: https://dyatlovpass1.ru/viewtopic.php?id=6#p11
 

December 10, 2022, 12:38:43 AM
Reply #6
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Почемучка



Mansi are like any other people, they are violent, they have bloody rites, they are not special.

Кто Вас так обманул? Про буйность манси? В России есть библиотека туристических отчетов советского времени. Каждый отчет с маршрутом по землям, где исконно жили и живут манси - содержит упоминания как манси им помогли, спасли от морозов и не дали заблудиться насмерть.
Все тоже самое - происходит и сейчас, истории эти - в средствах массовой информации публикуются каждый год. Потому что Россия - это снег, мороз и еще пока таежные дебри там, где любят проверять себя на силу воли - туристы.

Who deceived you so? About the violence of the Mansi? Russia has a library of travel reports from the Soviet era. Each report with a route through the lands where the Mansi originally lived and live contains references to how the Mansi helped them, saved them from frost and did not let them get lost to death.
All the same is happening now, these stories are published in the media every year. Because Russia is snow, frost and still taiga wilds where tourists like to test themselves for willpower.



Anyway, in older times, the Mansi performed human sacrifice like their Khanti and Russian neighbors. The Mansi had shamans and the institution of shaman comes out of human sacrifice. It's just that "older times" is relative. In the 19th and early 20th century, the Mansi were hunting with bows, it was not "older times" for them... At the same time, the Khanti had a sacred island where they sacrificed children and small girls at full moon... And today, in 2022, there are a least a few hundreds of human sacrifices still performed in the most remote parts of the planet. Northern Urals in 1959: not impossible.

Не имея опыта изучения документов того времени, которые я упомянула, - достаточно некрасиво делать предположения только на основе данных восемнадцатого века. Ненаучно - накладывать восемнадцатый век на двадцатый и пояснять что в мире не случилось никакой эволюции.

Having no experience of studying the documents of the time that I mentioned, it is rather ugly to make assumptions only on the basis of eighteenth century data. It is unscientific to impose the eighteenth century on the twentieth and explain that no evolution has happened in the world.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 12:54:06 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 
The following users thanked this post: Зайцев

December 10, 2022, 12:50:32 AM
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Почемучка



Can you please read before to post a reply?

ANYAMOV Andrey Alekseevich (Анямов Андрей Алексеевич) born in 1939, a hunter, in 1959 - lived in the village of Suevat-Paul, Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov's nephew. Took part in hunting in mid-February. He is thought to have been a member of the Kurikov and Nevolin search party Feb 23 - Mar 3 (Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov appears on the group's list). Allegedly, he was killed by fellow countrymen shortly after 1959.

ANYAMOV Prokopiy Vasilyevich (Анямов Прокопий Васильевич) - Nikolay Vasilyevich Anyamov’s brother. In the 60s he lived in the village of Suyevat-Paul. In 1961 while hunting he was accidentally killed by Nikolay Stepanovich Kurikov.

SAMBINDALOV Vasiliy Mironovich (Самбиндалов Василий Миронович), the son of M.I. Sambindalov. In a drunken squabble he shot and killed Ilya Dunaev, a Mansi.

BAHTIYAROV Timofey Prokopyevich (Бахтияров Тимофей Прокопьевич) born in 1926; in 1959 – a hunter, brother of Pavel Prokopyevich and Aleksander Prokopyevich Bahtiyarov; lived in the Bahtiyarov's yurts on the N. Toshemka river in the area of the Vapsos river. Krasnobaev went there on Feb 26 (Krasnobaev's testimony). It is not known where he was on Feb 16-25. Most likely he accompanied Pavel Vasilyevich Bahtiyarov. Later he was killed in unclear circumstances.

SHESHKIN Konstantin Efimovich (Шешкин Константин Ефимович) - born in 1932, Tyumen region - in 1959 а Mansi hunter; lived in Pelym yurts, Burmantovskiy rural council. Presumably in mid-February, while hunting, he saw traces of skis on the Lozva (above Auspiya) and Auspiya rivers leading to the Ural ridge while hunting with the Anyamovs from Suevat Paul. (Testimony). In the 60s he lived in the settlement of Lyamya-Paul. Brother of the famous Mansi artist Pyotr Efimovich Sheshkin (1930-1981). He was sentenced to 7 years for murder (in the taiga three people attacked him, so while trying to protect himself he accidentally killed one).

Вы опять  смешиваете в одно блюда совершенно разные истории?  Вы сами вчитайтесь в те факты которые приводите и найдите по крайней мере пять отличий от того, что Вы предлагаете считать доказанным.

Are you again mixing completely different stories into one dish? You yourself get a grasp of the facts that you cite and find at least five differences from what you propose to consider proven.

Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 10, 2022, 01:04:41 AM
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Зайцев




ANYAMOV Andrey Alekseevich (Анямов Андрей Алексеевич) born in 1939, a hunter, in 1959 - lived in the village of Suevat-Paul, Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov's nephew. Took part in hunting in mid-February. He is thought to have been a member of the Kurikov and Nevolin search party Feb 23 - Mar 3 (Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov appears on the group's list). Allegedly, he was killed by fellow countrymen shortly after 1959.

ANYAMOV Prokopiy Vasilyevich (Анямов Прокопий Васильевич) - Nikolay Vasilyevich Anyamov’s brother. In the 60s he lived in the village of Suyevat-Paul. In 1961 while hunting he was accidentally killed by Nikolay Stepanovich Kurikov.

SAMBINDALOV Vasiliy Mironovich (Самбиндалов Василий Миронович), the son of M.I. Sambindalov. In a drunken squabble he shot and killed Ilya Dunaev, a Mansi.

BAHTIYAROV Timofey Prokopyevich (Бахтияров Тимофей Прокопьевич) born in 1926; in 1959 – a hunter, brother of Pavel Prokopyevich and Aleksander Prokopyevich Bahtiyarov; lived in the Bahtiyarov's yurts on the N. Toshemka river in the area of the Vapsos river. Krasnobaev went there on Feb 26 (Krasnobaev's testimony). It is not known where he was on Feb 16-25. Most likely he accompanied Pavel Vasilyevich Bahtiyarov. Later he was killed in unclear circumstances.

SHESHKIN Konstantin Efimovich (Шешкин Константин Ефимович) - born in 1932, Tyumen region - in 1959 а Mansi hunter; lived in Pelym yurts, Burmantovskiy rural council. Presumably in mid-February, while hunting, he saw traces of skis on the Lozva (above Auspiya) and Auspiya rivers leading to the Ural ridge while hunting with the Anyamovs from Suevat Paul. (Testimony). In the 60s he lived in the settlement of Lyamya-Paul. Brother of the famous Mansi artist Pyotr Efimovich Sheshkin (1930-1981). He was sentenced to 7 years for murder (in the taiga three people attacked him, so while trying to protect himself he accidentally killed one).
This is a very low percentage of domestic homicides among the local population. Other nationalities of Russia kill each other on domestic grounds much more often. Look at the statistics of murders in Tuva, Buryatia, Khakassia, Altai. Mansi is the calmest peace-loving people.
==
Это очень низкий процент бытовых убийств среди местного населения. Другие народности России убивают друг друга на бытовой почве значительно чаще. Посмотрите статистику убийств по Тыве, Бурятии, Хакасии, Алтаю. Манси - это самый спокойный миролюбивый народ.
Шапокляк сдвинутая старуха

The most documented version of the "Battle Mole Ricochet" at the link: https://dyatlovpass1.ru/viewtopic.php?id=6#p11
 

December 10, 2022, 01:22:42 AM
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Почемучка



These people: ANYAMOV Andrey, ANYAMOV Prokopiy, SAMBINDALOV Vasiliy, BAHTIYAROV Timofey, SHESHKIN Konstantin were all Mansi, and they killed or were killed by gun shot. You didn't understand they were Mansi?
Как Вы совершенно уникально обнаружили - весь перечень состоит из манси. Уж поверьте. Это именно мансийские представители разных родов. И перечень состоит из бытовых убийств на почве: ревности, пьянства, недовольства дележом родовых угодий  попыток других мансийских семей промышлять не на своих угодьях.

Как это вшить в канву причин гибели гр. Дятлова, если помнить что все туристские группы именно в тот период: свердловские Блинова, Карелина, Шумкова, ростовская Фоменко, московская  Харченко - благополучно прошли через юрты манси и получили помощь, какая им требовалась.

As you absolutely uniquely discovered, the entire list consists of Mansi. Believe me. These are the Mansi representatives of different clans. And the list consists of domestic murders on the basis of: jealousy, drunkenness, dissatisfaction with the division of ancestral lands, attempts by other Mansi families to hunt on land other than their own.

How to sew this into the canvas of the reasons for the death of gr. Dyatlov, if you remember that all the tourist groups at that time: Sverdlovsk Blinova, Karelina, Shumkova, Rostov Fomenko, Moscow Kharchenko - safely passed through the Mansi yurts and received the help they needed

« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 01:28:39 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 10, 2022, 01:39:00 AM
Reply #10
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Почемучка


Among the local population in 1959? Really?

Anyway I don't care, it's a percentage and it's enough: the peaceful Mansi is a Rousseauist myth, and even a bit racist... like they are so innocent, stupid and primitive they didn't invent murder yet... )))

Вы станете стоять на своем - совершенно ни на что не опираясь? Вы как оказалось - и все данные по теме гр. Дятлова не знаете. Не знакомились с тем, как Карелин описывал общение с манси, как участник группы Шумкова описывал и как ростовский экстремал Фоменко описывал знакомство с манси.
Сидя в далекой стране и не пытаясь ничего узнать по теме даже в периметре очень связанной с нею информации и делать такие далеко идущие и обижающие наш коренной народ выводы: это несовместимо ни с чем. Вы взялись толковать талмуд - не будучи так сказать этой религии.

Will you stand your ground - completely without relying on anything? You, as it turned out - and all the data on the topic gr. You don't know Dyatlov. They did not get acquainted with how Karelin described communication with the Mansi, how a member of the Shumkov group described and how the Rostov extreme Fomenko described his acquaintance with the Mansi.
Sitting in a distant country and not trying to find out anything on the topic, even in the perimeter of information very related to it, and making such far-reaching and offending conclusions for our indigenous people: this is incompatible with anything. You undertook to interpret the Talmud - not being, so to speak, this religion.

Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 10, 2022, 01:40:15 PM
Reply #11
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Зайцев


Sitting in a distant country and not trying to find out anything on the topic, even in the perimeter of information very related to it, and making such far-reaching and offending conclusions for our indigenous people: this is incompatible with anything. You undertook to interpret the Talmud - not being, so to speak, this religion.

"Offending conclusions for indigenous people"... very funny. But we know more about the Mansi religion than they know themselves because the Mansi don't have anthropology and because their culture is in its final stage of decomposition. Indigenous cultures don't survive the contact with modernity.
Мы о культуре манси уже знаем даже больше, чем есть на самом деле. Дятловеды занимаются фантазированием и выдумывают подробности, которых не существовало. Каннибализм с поеданием языков и выпиванием крови. Этот бред уже ни в какие ворота не лезет.
We already know even more about the Mansi culture than we actually do. Dyatlovologists are engaged in fantasizing and inventing details that did not exist. Cannibalism with eating tongues and drinking blood. This nonsense no longer climbs into any gate.
Шапокляк сдвинутая старуха

The most documented version of the "Battle Mole Ricochet" at the link: https://dyatlovpass1.ru/viewtopic.php?id=6#p11
 

December 10, 2022, 03:51:02 PM
Reply #12
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Ziljoe


Cannibalism with eating tongues and drinking blood. This nonsense

It's not "nonsense". Did you hear about the Nazino tragedy? A famous case of cannibalism in Soviet Union. In 1961, Michael Rockefeller was killed and eaten by tribesmen in New Guinea. There are other  cases of such practices recorded around the world during the 20th century. Why call it nonsense?

I could agree that the thing is not proven (if I had read the arguments but I am not very interested in this theory). But it was possible. And it is still possible in many parts of the world, and more than possible, it actually happens. And in similar circumstances: peasants from remote regions freaking out when their cattle or crops are threatened. Not proven: yes, nonsense: no.

Like wise Charles,

Snow slip/slide. Not proven :yes, nonsense :no

Wolverine's : Not proven:: yes, nonsense(fantasy) : no

Tree and staging : Not proven ,yes nonsense: no

Snow cave(snow bridge) , very possible.

These things happen in other parts of the world too, as you say....
 

December 10, 2022, 08:52:49 PM
Reply #13
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Зайцев


Cannibalism with eating tongues and drinking blood. This nonsense

It's not "nonsense". Did you hear about the Nazino tragedy? A famous case of cannibalism in Soviet Union. In 1961, Michael Rockefeller was killed and eaten by tribesmen in New Guinea. There are other  cases of such practices recorded around the world during the 20th century. Why call it nonsense?

I could agree that the thing is not proven (if I had read the arguments but I am not very interested in this theory). But it was possible. And it is still possible in many parts of the world, and more than possible, it actually happens. And in similar circumstances: peasants from remote regions freaking out when their cattle or crops are threatened. Not proven: yes, nonsense: no.
Недавно о каннибализме манси публично заявил Дробышевский, кандидат биологических наук, доцент кафедры антропологии биологического факультета МГУ имени М. В. Ломоносова.
Знаете продолжение этой истории, как Почемучка вывела его на чистую воду ?
Recently, Mansi cannibalism was publicly announced by Drobyshevsky, Candidate of Biological Sciences, Associate Professor of the Department of Anthropology, Faculty of Biology, Lomonosov Moscow State University.
https://youtu.be/huxFzGN-Kks?t=1144
Do you know the continuation of this story, how Pochemuchka brought him to clean water?
Шапокляк сдвинутая старуха

The most documented version of the "Battle Mole Ricochet" at the link: https://dyatlovpass1.ru/viewtopic.php?id=6#p11
 

December 10, 2022, 10:19:59 PM
Reply #14
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Почемучка



It's not "nonsense". Did you hear about the Nazino tragedy? A famous case of cannibalism in Soviet Union. In 1961, Michael Rockefeller was killed and eaten by tribesmen in New Guinea. There are other  cases of such practices recorded around the world during the 20th century. Why call it nonsense?

Не волнуйтесь, мы разумеется слышали. Их очень много этих историй, когда люди в условиях невыносимого голода и отсутствия возможности питаться чем-то другим - переходили на людоедство. Во всех странах планеты Земля.
Но как это связать с манси и туристами? У кого там был голодомор? У советских манси, которые сами себя в состоянии прокормить тем что дает им природа? Мало того, манси кормили результатами своей охоты и рыбной ловли - и проходящих черех их поселения туристов, геологов, геодезистов, топографов и так далее. Все это многократно описываемые случаи.
Вы даже вообразить себе не сможете, сколько я могу Вам пересказать таких историй. Например гитлеровская операция "Ульм" февраля 1944 года или катастрофа FH-227 в Андах 1972 года. Но в них, повторюсь, нет ни единой аналогии с рассматриваемой нами историей гибели группы Дятлова.

Don't worry, we certainly heard. There are a lot of these stories, when people, in conditions of unbearable hunger and the lack of the opportunity to eat something else, switched to cannibalism. In all countries of the planet Earth.
But how can this be connected with Mansi and tourists? Who had a famine there? The Soviet Mansi, who are able to feed themselves with what nature gives them? Moreover, the Mansi fed the results of their hunting and fishing - and passing through their settlements of tourists, geologists, surveyors, topographers, and so on. All these are repeated cases.
You can't even imagine how many stories like this I can tell you. For example, the Nazi operation "Ulm" in February 1944 or the FH-227 crash in the Andes in 1972. But in them, I repeat, there is not a single analogy with the story of the death of the Dyatlov group that we are considering.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2022, 10:54:55 PM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 10, 2022, 10:29:26 PM
Reply #15
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Почемучка



Недавно о каннибализме манси публично заявил Дробышевский, кандидат биологических наук, доцент кафедры антропологии биологического факультета МГУ имени М. В. Ломоносова.
Знаете продолжение этой истории, как Почемучка вывела его на чистую воду ?
Recently, Mansi cannibalism was publicly announced by Drobyshevsky, Candidate of Biological Sciences, Associate Professor of the Department of Anthropology, Faculty of Biology, Lomonosov Moscow State University.
https://youtu.be/huxFzGN-Kks?t=1144
Do you know the continuation of this story, how Pochemuchka brought him to clean water?

Ну откуда ему знать-то? Он видимо и карту распространения каннибализма сейчас в первый раз увидит. Карту 1893 года. Сработанную немцами. И даже не сможет прочитать пояснений к этой карте от тех же немцев. И будет красное путать с зеленым.
Дело в том, что Чарльзу бессмысленно предлагать читать наши российские источники, наши документы. Он не в состоянии прочитать русские тексты. Поэтому он всегда уходит на папуасов и тему почему аборигены съели Кука. То есть на англоязычные истории.

Well, how would he know? He apparently sees the map of the spread of cannibalism for the first time. 1893 map. Made by the Germans. And he won’t even be able to read the explanations for this map from the same Germans. And red will be confused with green.
The fact is that it is pointless to offer Charles to read our Russian sources, our documents. He is unable to read Russian texts. Therefore, he always goes to the Papuans and the topic of why the natives ate Cook. That is, English-language stories.



Карта распространения каннибализма, изданная в Германии в 1893 году. Розовым цветом выделены области, где, по мнению авторов карты, каннибализм еще практиковался, зеленым — территории, на которых эта практика была ограничена или исчезла самостоятельно

Map of the spread of cannibalism published in Germany in 1893. Areas where, according to the authors of the map, cannibalism was still practiced are highlighted in pink, areas where this practice was limited or disappeared on its own
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 04:48:10 AM
Reply #16
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Почемучка


Here is a beautiful tale of the Khanti, Mansi's neighbors:

"Two hunters married, one a Mos-ne, the other a Por-ne. They went to the forest to hunt. They were away for a long time. The women had no food any more. The Por-ne killed a child, and brought the meat to entertain the Mos-ne. The Mos-ne did not eat, only the Por-ne ate. Then she said: “I’ve entertained you, now you entertain me. Kill your child.” The Mos-ne did not want to eat her child, so she cut a rotten stump, cooked a rotten birch and gave to the Por-ne. The Por-ne said: “Your child is not tasty, mine was tasty.” The hunters came, brought meat, brought fish. The Mos-ne brought her child to greet the father. The Por-ne put some wood into the cradle. The Mos-ne had her child. The Por-ne had no child." (Anna-Leena Siikala and Oleg Ulyashev, Hidden Rituals and Public Performances, Traditions and belonging among the post-Soviet Khanty, Komi and Udmurts)

I like a lot the "tasty" consideration. It's like in the documentary of Oxford Humanities: "The meat didn't taste very good because we forgot to bring the spices with us"....
Ну раз такое дело - давайте обратимся к сказке француза Шарля Перро. И обнаружим - людоедов во французских сказках...
Мама Вам в детстве - читала сказку про кота в сапогах? Или Вы уже тогда слушали перед сном исключительно фрагменты этноса манси?
Все сказки всех народов мира - имеют хоть раз именно такой сюжетный ход. Тогда чего Вы так ополчились на манси?

Well, since such a thing - let's turn to the fairy tale of the Frenchman Charles Perrault. And we will find - cannibals in French fairy tales ...
Did your mother read a fairy tale about Puss in Boots when you were a child? Or did you already listen to fragments of the Mansi ethnic group before going to bed?
All the fairy tales of all the peoples of the world have at least once such a plot move. Then why are you so up in arms against the Mansi?


The collection of Russian folk tales gathered by Alexander Afanasiev is full of cannibalism episodes, of the ritual one, that is to say the commonly and socially practiced.

The fact that your ancestors ritually killed and ate innocent victims does not make you guilty of these practices. There is no link between the generations. But if you begin to deny the ugly practices of you ancestors, you establish a link that was not here, you made of yourself the accomplice of the practices.
Как вовремя Вы свернули на обрядовый каннибализм. А давайте поищем аналогичного в обрядах просвещенной Европы?
Готовы к получению шоковой информации? Ну тогда читайте и не говорите что Вам это не известно.

Современные этнографы и историки культуры наткнулись и заинтересовались древней и жестокой тюрингской легендой. Чтобы сделать замок Либенштейн неприступным, за большие деньги купили ребенка и решили замуровать в стену. Пока каменщики делали своё дело, ребёнок сидел в нише и ел пирог. Иногда он кричал находившейся рядом матери: «Мама, мне тебя видно… Мама, мне всё ещё тебя видно… Мама, я вижу тебя в щёлочку… Мама, а теперь я ничего не вижу».

Вскоре выяснилось, что подобные обряды были не только у немцев, а у всех народов Европы без исключения. Стены Копенгагена, например, несколько раз обрушивались, пока строители не прибегли к радикальному средству: взяли невинную голодную девочку и посадили за стол с игрушками и кушаньями. Пока девочка насыщалась и играла, двенадцать (сакральное число?) рабочих сложили свод. Затем во все время возведения стен около склепа играла музыка, чтобы заглушить вопли несчастной. В итальянских преданиях можно найти историю о мосте через реку Арту, который всё время обрушивался, пока в него не заложили жену строителя. Мост стоит, но его периодически трясёт от рыданий и проклятий несчастной женщины.

How timely you turned to ritual cannibalism. And let's look for something similar in the rituals of enlightened Europe?
Ready for some shock information? Well then read and do not say that you do not know.

Contemporary ethnographers and cultural historians. stumbled upon and became interested in the ancient and cruel Thuringian legend. To make Liebenstein Castle impregnable, they bought a child for a lot of money and decided to wall it up. While the masons did their work, the child sat in a niche and ate a pie. Sometimes he shouted to his mother who was nearby: “Mom, I can see you ... Mom, I can still see you ... Mom, I see you through the crack ... Mom, but now I don’t see anything.”

It soon became clear that such rituals were not only among the Germans, but among all the peoples of Europe, without exception. The walls of Copenhagen, for example, collapsed several times until the builders resorted to a radical remedy: they took an innocent, hungry girl and put them at a table with toys and food. While the girl was eating and playing, twelve (sacred number?) workers laid down the vault. Then, during the construction of the walls near the crypt, music was played to drown out the cries of the unfortunate. In Italian legends, you can find a story about a bridge over the Arta River, which kept collapsing until the builder's wife was laid in it. The bridge is standing, but it periodically shakes from the sobs and curses of the unfortunate woman.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 05:13:37 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 05:15:26 AM
Reply #17
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Почемучка



I have nothing against the Mansi themselves but against the idea that they would be different from other people, against the idea that they would not be exactly the same as other people. I have already written this, you just force me to repeat myself here.
Вы опять уселись между двумя стульями/мнениями? Если манси ровно такие же люди как и все другие жители планеты Земля, так зачем приписывать им какие-то отдельные и ничем неподтвержденные жестокости? Я Вам старательно привела данные, что туристы и манси сосуществовали в СССР - мирно, дружно и на взаимовыгодных условиях. За всю историю - ничего такого не происходило. Нет сведений о том, что манси вели себя агрессивно. Был эпизод, когда туристы бессовестно залезли в священную пещерку манси и украли оттуда святыни. Это было много позже 1959 года. Никто из туристов никак не пострадал. Плакал только старый манси, над религиозным чувством которого немотивированно надругались.

Are you sitting between two chairs/opinions again? If the Mansi are exactly the same people as all other inhabitants of the planet Earth, then why attribute to them some separate and unconfirmed cruelty? I diligently gave you the data that tourists and Mansi coexisted in the USSR - peacefully, amicably and on mutually beneficial terms. In all of history, nothing like this has ever happened. There is no evidence that the Mansi behaved aggressively. There was an episode when tourists shamelessly climbed into the sacred Mansi cave and stole shrines from there. This was much later than 1959. None of the tourists were hurt in any way. Only the old Mansi wept, whose religious feeling was unmotivatedly abused.


I am very interested in anthropology of religions, and in the permanence or resurgence of archaic trends in contemporary societies. So, I look forward to read you...
Вы сами не в состоянии так поставить вопрос перед Гуглом-всемогущим, чтоб узнать много нового или хорошо забытого старого даже из истории своей Франции? Гильотина и все такое? Уж кто любил поливать кровью мостовые - так это французы. Вы свою историю, историю Галлии не хотите освежить хотя бы на уровне школьной программы?
You yourself are not able to put the question before the almighty Google in such a way that you can learn a lot of new or well-forgotten old even from the history of your France? Guillotine and all that? Who loved to pour blood over pavements - so it's the French. Do you want to refresh your history, the history of Gaul, at least at the level of the school curriculum?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 05:30:06 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 05:40:54 AM
Reply #18
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Почемучка



Very interesting map, but the whole India should be in pink.
Я повышаю Ваш образовательный уровень бесплатно? Вы эту карту - увидели из моих рук?

Карта отражает местности, на которых оказывались немцы на достаточный срок, чтоб сделать научные выводы. Вам должно быть это понятным, поскольку прежде чем нарисуют карту, этому предшествуют исследования на местности. Поскольку тема транспорта и почтовых отправлений 19 века хорошо узнается через Гугл, то смогу только уточнить, что данные на карте - это данные задолго до 1893 года.
Порядка 1850 года. Отмена крепостного права в России - скорее всего та дата, когда немцы начали свои исследования на местности, с проживанием на этой местности.

The map reflects the terrain in which the Germans found themselves for a sufficient period to draw scientific conclusions. You should understand this, because before a map is drawn, it is preceded by research on the ground. Since the topic of 19th century transport and mail is well recognized through Google, I can only clarify that the data on the map is data long before 1893.
Around 1850. The abolition of serfdom in Russia is most likely the date when the Germans began their exploration of the area, with living in this area.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 05:47:10 AM
Reply #19
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Почемучка


Charles Perrault cannot be seen as a French counterpart of Alexander Afanasiev. Afanasiev had a genuine ethnographic ambition, Perrault was more into literature. The equivalent of Afanasiev's Russian folk tales could be rather Arnold van Gennep's Manuel de folklore français contemporain. Perrault's versions of folk tales were watered down compared with peasants' tales, he was a kind of precursor of romanticism and even of Disney.
А как же любовь французам к кровище на мостовой, гильотины и прочие Бастилии?
Шарль Перро - натуральный продукт французской культуры и этнографии. Плоть от плоти и кровь от крови.
Поэтому в его сказках людоеды кушают мальчиков с пальчиков. Причем у людоедов есть жены и собственные дети.

But what about the love of the French for the blood on the pavement, the guillotines and other Bastilles?
Charles Perrault is a natural product of French culture and ethnography. Flesh from flesh and blood from blood.
Therefore, in his tales, cannibals eat boys from their fingers. Moreover, cannibals have wives and their own children.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 06:57:40 AM
Reply #20
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Почемучка




ANYAMOV Andrey Alekseevich (Анямов Андрей Алексеевич) born in 1939, a hunter, in 1959 - lived in the village of Suevat-Paul, Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov's nephew. Took part in hunting in mid-February. He is thought to have been a member of the Kurikov and Nevolin search party Feb 23 - Mar 3 (Andrey Alekseevich Anyamov appears on the group's list). Allegedly, he was killed by fellow countrymen shortly after 1959.

ANYAMOV Prokopiy Vasilyevich (Анямов Прокопий Васильевич) - Nikolay Vasilyevich Anyamov’s brother. In the 60s he lived in the village of Suyevat-Paul. In 1961 while hunting he was accidentally killed by Nikolay Stepanovich Kurikov.

SAMBINDALOV Vasiliy Mironovich (Самбиндалов Василий Миронович), the son of M.I. Sambindalov. In a drunken squabble he shot and killed Ilya Dunaev, a Mansi.

BAHTIYAROV Timofey Prokopyevich (Бахтияров Тимофей Прокопьевич) born in 1926; in 1959 – a hunter, brother of Pavel Prokopyevich and Aleksander Prokopyevich Bahtiyarov; lived in the Bahtiyarov's yurts on the N. Toshemka river in the area of the Vapsos river. Krasnobaev went there on Feb 26 (Krasnobaev's testimony). It is not known where he was on Feb 16-25. Most likely he accompanied Pavel Vasilyevich Bahtiyarov. Later he was killed in unclear circumstances.

SHESHKIN Konstantin Efimovich (Шешкин Константин Ефимович) - born in 1932, Tyumen region - in 1959 а Mansi hunter; lived in Pelym yurts, Burmantovskiy rural council. Presumably in mid-February, while hunting, he saw traces of skis on the Lozva (above Auspiya) and Auspiya rivers leading to the Ural ridge while hunting with the Anyamovs from Suevat Paul. (Testimony). In the 60s he lived in the settlement of Lyamya-Paul. Brother of the famous Mansi artist Pyotr Efimovich Sheshkin (1930-1981). He was sentenced to 7 years for murder (in the taiga three people attacked him, so while trying to protect himself he accidentally killed one).


Вы таки на второй круг пошли с аргументами-то? С теми что уже приводили и Вам их совершенно точно и четко отбили? Вернуться сами сможете в начало беседы или ссылку давать?

Did you go to the second round with arguments? With those that have already been brought to you and they have been repulsed quite accurately and clearly? Will you be able to return to the beginning of the conversation or give a link?


So you make it a point of political pride?

Вы ничего не перевернули с ног на голову? Французы куда ранее московитов/россиян самозабвенно искали поводы чтоб поливать землю кровью своих же сограждан. А уж как они распоряжались с жизнями населения колоний - так это вообще лучше не вспоминать. Франция на веки вечные стала символом кровавых революций, малой ценности жизни и чересчур амбициозных правителей. За какими огородными овощами Ваш французский Наполеон пошел на Россию? Что он там забыл? Манси проведать?
Вы не заметили, что смоделировали сугубо французские идеи и идеалы на коренной народ России - манси? Вам как французу - это прям в крови, в генофонде - быть очень расположенным к таким вещам, которые Вы приписываете манси.
Надо сказать, что во Франции - очень много русских. По корням с первой и последующих волн белоэмиграции. Вы - не из их числа.
Мне пришлось по своим интересам исследования - обращаться в русскую общину Гренобля. Я писала им из считай глухой деревушки российской глубинки. Удивительно милые и открытые люди. Русские. Российские.

Have you turned anything upside down? The French, much earlier than the Muscovites / Russians, selflessly looked for reasons to water the earth with the blood of their own fellow citizens. And how they disposed of the lives of the population of the colonies is generally better not to remember. France has forever become a symbol of bloody revolutions, the low value of life and overly ambitious rulers. For what garden vegetables did your French Napoleon go to Russia? What did he forget? Mansi to visit?

Have you noticed that you modeled purely French ideas and ideals on the indigenous people of Russia - the Mansi? As a Frenchman, it’s in your blood, in your gene pool, to be very disposed to such things that you attribute to the Mansi.
I must say that there are a lot of Russians in France. By roots from the first and subsequent waves of white emigration. You are not one of them.
For my own research interests, I had to apply to the Russian community of Grenoble. I wrote to them from a seemingly remote village in the Russian hinterland. Surprisingly nice and open people. Russians. Russian.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 07:12:19 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 07:24:50 AM
Reply #21
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Почемучка


But I don't feel guilt for the crimes of my ancestors. The sons are not guilty of the crimes of the fathers, unless they begin to deny the reality of these crimes. Do you understand?
А какое может быть чувство вины перед национальным этносом, который втек в Вас даже не с молоком матери, а с молоком Вашей пра-пра-пра-пра-бабушки. Это то, что невозможно ни ампутировать, ни перевоспитать. Это Ваши национальные корни. Исконные и коренные. Которые разбавляются прорастающими этносами иммигрантов, менее ориентированных на жестокость и жажду крови.
Я Вас просила начать отсчет прямо с Галлии и племен что её составляли. И поискать ответ - отчего французы такие какие они есть?

У Вас, французов,  всегда - было недостаточно земли под разрастающееся население.  И эту тему - решали уничтожением лишнего населения. Евреи в этой проблеме - нашли другой выход. Они просто расселялись по всем странам и весям.

And what can be the feeling of guilt before the national ethnic group, which flowed into you not even with mother's milk, but with the milk of your great-great-great-great-grandmother. This is something that cannot be amputated, do not re-educate. These are your national roots. Aboriginal and indigenous. Which are diluted by sprouting ethnic groups of immigrants, less oriented towards cruelty and bloodlust.
I asked you to start counting directly from Gaul and the tribes that made it up. And look for the answer - why are the French the way they are?

You, the French, have always - there was not enough land for a growing population. And this topic was solved by the destruction of the excess population. The Jews in this problem-found another way out. They simply settled in all countries and villages.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 08:57:03 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 07:59:18 AM
Reply #22
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Зайцев


На русскоязычном пространстве за много лет были десятки дятловедов, которые подозревали манси в этой трагедии. Эти люди серьёзно изучали тему и пытались найти доказательства. Большинство из них поняли, что находятся на неверном пути и отказались от версии манси. Наиболее упертые от версии не отказались, но стали применять в качестве доказательств ложные, выдуманные факты, пытаясь обмануть. Одна из таких "исследователей" - Дмитриевская. У неё версия, над которой она работала 5 лет. Вот скрины из её версии.
=
In the Russian-speaking space for many years there were dozens of Dyatlov experts who suspected the Mansi of this tragedy. These people seriously studied the topic and tried to find evidence. Most of them realized that they were on the wrong track and abandoned the Mansi version. The most stubborn did not abandon the version, but began to use false, invented facts as evidence, trying to deceive. One of these "researchers" is Dmitrievskaya. She has a version she's been working on for 5 years. Here are screenshots from her version.
=
На этой фотографии она показывает, как манси целится из ружья в голову Тибо
In this photo, she shows Mansi aiming a gun at Thibault's head.

На этой фотографии она утверждает, что мансийский лабаз это захоронение шамана и под ним находятся другие могилы.
In this photo, she claims that the Mansi storage shed is a shaman's burial place and there are other graves under it.

Шапокляк сдвинутая старуха

The most documented version of the "Battle Mole Ricochet" at the link: https://dyatlovpass1.ru/viewtopic.php?id=6#p11
 

December 11, 2022, 08:18:14 AM
Reply #23
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Почемучка



Wow! Racism now? But it's quite funny because there is a root of my family genealogy which is in Eastern Europe: we have German, Austrian, Swedish, Polish and Russian genes... in addition to French genes.  lol4
Ну какой же расизм, если это чистая статистика и анализ исторической почвы для Франции и для России? Почему как только задевают Вас персонально - Вы обнаруживаете расизм? Я же не обзывала Вас расистом из-за того что Ваш взгляд упал на манси?
Про русские гены - Вы очень округлили. Украина скорее всего. Вы Украину - вписали к России. Я же вижу что у Вас нет генетики - читать русские тексты. У меня - восьмая вода на киселе в немцах и поляках. Я могу понимать и польское и немецкое текстом. Интуитивно. Гены.

Well, what kind of racism, if this is pure statistics and an analysis of the historical soil for France and Russia? Why as soon as you are personally offended - you discover racism? I didn’t call you a racist because your eyes fell on the Mansi?
About Russian genes - you are very rounded. Ukraine most likely. You Ukraine-inscribed to Russia. I see that you do not have genetics - to read Russian texts. I have - the eighth water on jelly in the Germans and Poles. I can understand both Polish and German text. Intuitively. Genes.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 08:26:34 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 08:45:07 AM
Reply #24
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Почемучка



I know your problem: you can't hit me in the face... But you know, God loves all of us, prepare for Christmas, go to Sretensky Monastery and confess, smile and be happy...  kiss1
Совершенно не так. Я Вас поставила в то же положение, в какое Вы поставили манси, которые совершенно ничего плохого не сделали ни Вам, ни кому-то еще. Ведь я Вам привела все доказательства того, что Вы очень и очень неправы.

И Вы сразу что сделали? Возмутились несправедливостью. Так что впредь - прежде чем вешать ярлыки на совершенно ни в чем не повинный коренной народ России: подумайте что Ваша спина для этого ярлыка подходит больше.
Вы сами себя ударили по лицу и неоднократно, продолжая утверждать совершенно необоснованное...

Absolutely not. I put you in the same position in which you put the Mansi, who did absolutely nothing wrong to you or anyone else. After all, I gave you all the evidence that you are very, very wrong.

And what did you do right away? Outraged by the injustice. So henceforth - before labeling the completely innocent indigenous people of Russia: think that your back is more suitable for this label.
You hit yourself in the face and repeatedly, continuing to assert completely unfounded...
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 09:53:11 AM
Reply #25
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Почемучка


You should read that:

https://www.litres.ru/arhimandrit-tihon-shevkunov/nesvyatye-svyatye-i-drugie-rasskazy/chitat-onlayn/

It might bring peace to your soul.

У меня достаточно и без Вашей помощи - книг для чтения.

I have enough books to read even without your help.

So your "genes" give you a sort of psychic capacity to "intuitively" understand foreign languages? I am not sure to clearly understand what you are trying to say here... Did the German and Polish languages passed into your genes?
Помучьте Гугл на эту тему. Да откроются Вам бездны познания...

Torment Google on this topic. May the abysses of knowledge open to you...
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 11:15:13 AM
Reply #26
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Почемучка



So you are a survivance of Lysenko's genetics... in 2022. Beautiful... But why are you feeling ashamed now and self-censoring? Just freely express your thought, you won't be repressed by any state security, will you?
От Вас ушел к другому Гугл? А так-то вот последние научные данные. Обратите внимание - там фамилия Лысенко ни разу не упомянута.
https://ria.ru/20210117/yazyk-1593202264.html

По ДНК можно узнать, какой язык для человека родной. Восприятие тонов и умение произносить слова с большим количеством согласных, судя по всему, связаны с вполне определенными версиями некоторых генов. Способность осваивать иностранную речь, возможно, тоже передается по наследству. РИА Новости разбирается, почему одни — полиглоты, а другие с трудом осваивают даже туристический разговорник.

Did Google leave you for another? And so here is the latest scientific data. Pay attention - there the name Lysenko is never mentioned.

DNA can be used to find out what language a person is native to. The perception of tones and the ability to pronounce words with a large number of consonants, apparently, are associated with well-defined versions of certain genes. The ability to master a foreign speech may also be inherited. RIA Novosti understands why some are polyglots, while others hardly master even a tourist phrase book.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2022, 11:21:21 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 11, 2022, 11:23:04 AM
Reply #27
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Почемучка



So Lysenko was right?
Вызовите его на спиритический сеанс и уточните: какие тезисы он выдвигал и что считал правым делом.
Поскольку - то что Вы смогли понять: это не равняется тому что думал и представлял Лысенко.

Call him to a seance and clarify: what theses he put forward and what he considered the right thing to do.
Because - what you were able to understand: this does not equal what Lysenko thought and imagined.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 12, 2022, 04:31:36 AM
Reply #28
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Почемучка


The Mansi in 1959 were a dying culture, they experienced an extreme social crisis, like any tribal society after contact with modernity, and after the soviet repression of the 1930s, and during an epidemic decimating their herds of reindeers.

Манси на 1959 год - были малочисленным коренным народом СССР. Который находил баланс между правилами новой жизни и старой.
Эпидемий, косивших вот прямо под последний корень стада одомашненных оленей, - на 1959 год не было в природе. Потому что советская ветеринария таки была на посту и ею занимались крупные профессионалы.  Незначительный падеж стада происходил во все годы. Олени становились неудобным грузом, когда началась разработка нефтяных и газовых месторождений, последствием которых было уменьшение годных пастбищ и зимовочных местностей. Это произошло гораздо позже чем 1959 год.

Манси не взирая на свою малочисленность - внесли огромный вклад в победу над фашизмом. Охотники-манси брали повышенные обязательства по заготовке ценной пушнины, которой расплачивались за помощь союзников. Каждый картонный самолет союзной Америки, переданной нам по ленд-лизу, - был получен за счет в том числе и добытых соболей, куниц и прочее. Америка гуляла в российских мехах, а наши русские летчики - гробились на картонных американских самолетах. Вам напомнить про Нормандию-Неман? Или Франция закопала имена этих героев подальше в свои архивы?

Манси участвовали в выборах, были избранниками во власть. Советская власть пыталась помочь им перейти на новые уклады жизни, но не очень насильственно. Советы всегда помнили как США выкорчевывало свое коренное население - индейцев. Таких методов СССР - не использовало. Никаких оспенных одеял или истребления бизонов. Власти СССР не смогли контролировать только смертельное оружие - алкоголь. Который как раз и сделал свое черное дело.

Манси на сегодняшний день - вымирающий народ. И манси не винят ни власть и ни эволюцию. Их девиз - "Все наше -уйдет вместе с нами". Манси - уникальные философы. Даже в этой чудовищной ситуации - они нашли самый человечный акцент. Им не страшно - что манси уйдут в историю как вырезанные напрочь племена Северной Америки. Они не пытаются вкрутить свои идеалы в современную жизнь. Это невероятной мощности - человечность. Которой будет не хватать - когда манси как народ уйдут с лица планеты. Это наши команчи Урала.

Mansi in 1959 - were a small indigenous people of the USSR. Who found a balance between the rules of the new life and the old.
In 1959, there were no epidemics that mowed down a herd of domesticated deer right under the last root. Because Soviet veterinary medicine was still on duty and it was handled by prominent professionals. A slight loss of the herd occurred in all years. Reindeer became an inconvenient load when the development of oil and gas fields began, the consequence of which was a decrease in suitable pastures and wintering areas. This happened much later than 1959.

Mansi participated in the elections, were elected to power. The Soviet government tried to help them move on to new ways of life, but not very violently. The Soviets always remembered how the United States uprooted its indigenous population - the Indians. The USSR did not use such methods. No pox blankets or buffalo slaughter. The Soviet authorities were unable to control only a deadly weapon - alcohol. Which just did his dirty deed.

Mansi today is a dying people. And the Mansi do not blame either the government or evolution. Their motto is "All that is ours will go with us." Mansi are unique philosophers. Even in this monstrous situation - they found the most human accent. They are not afraid that the Mansi will go down in history as the completely cut out tribes of North America. They do not try to screw their ideals into modern life. This is incredible power - humanity. Which will be missed - when the Mansi as a people leave the face of the planet. These are our Ural Comanches.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 05:00:08 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

December 12, 2022, 05:03:02 AM
Reply #29
Offline

Почемучка



The Khanti had memories of human sacrifice that were orally transmitted, without any mythical formalization, just transmitting the information during a few generations from 19th to 20th century: they knew that children and small girls where brought by men to their sacred island for bloody rite at full moon.

У всех народов применялись человеческие жертвы. Я вот недавно Вас знакомила. И Вы видимо - пропустили мимо своих прекрасных французских извилин эту информацию
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1072.msg19130#msg19130

Мне не очень смешно, когда Вы на манси укладываете хантов. Представьте что французов оценивают по испанцам. Нигде не будет жать в талии? Какая разница, это же рядышком, сотня/другая километров?
Человеческие жертвы, если Вы не смогли этого нигде прочитать, - часто упоминаются этнографами у ненцев. Этот народ даже получил
название - самоеды. Этот народ жил исторически в самом невыгодной для получения пищевых ресурсов регионе России. Там был найден и религиозно оправдан именно такой способ выживания.

Жертвы и были в самом прямом смысле жертвенности. Пожилые люди сами разрешали съедать себя чтоб род/племя смогло пережить длинный зимний сезон полярной ночи.
То что Вы приписываете хантам - это последствия контактов, причем конфликтных, между хантами и ненцами. Ханты звались остяками. Ненцы - самоедами. А манси - вогулами.

All peoples used human sacrifices. I recently introduced you. And you apparently missed this information past your beautiful French convolutions.
It’s not very funny to me when you put the Khanty on the Mansi. Imagine that the French are judged by the Spaniards. Nowhere will reap at the waist? What's the difference, it's next to each other, a hundred / other kilometers?
Human sacrifices, if you could not read it anywhere, are often mentioned by ethnographers among the Nenets. This people even received
the name is Samoyeds. This people lived historically in the most disadvantageous region of Russia for obtaining food resources. It was found and religiously justified just such a way of survival.
The victims were in the most direct sense of sacrifice. Elderly people themselves allowed themselves to be eaten so that the clan / tribe could survive the long winter season of the polar night.
What you attribute to the Khanty is the consequences of contacts, and conflicts at that, between the Khanty and the Nenets. The Khanty were called Ostyaks. The Nenets are Samoyeds. And the Mansi are Voguls.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 05:18:01 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...