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Author Topic: Mansi Hypothesis  (Read 22114 times)

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December 12, 2022, 05:49:43 AM
Reply #30


"There we talked with him that the deer were sick with "kopytka" (necrobacteriosis - ed. note) and many deer died and wolves appeared and ate the dead deer. "

Ну и что - копытка? Ветеринары на то были. Оленьи стада и после 1959 года оставались радостью их мансийских пастухов. Никто им на Аляске с США оленей не закупал. Своим, советским обходились. Много - это термин довольно условный. Вы же не поднимали статистику ветеринарную на падеж оленей в 1959 году в СССР?
Помиритесь со своим Гуглом, подарите ему букет роз и спросите именно такой вопрос.

Well, what is a hoof? Veterinarians were there. Reindeer herds and after 1959 remained the joy of their Mansi shepherds. Nobody bought them deer in Alaska from the USA. They managed with their own, Soviet ones. A lot is a rather arbitrary term. You didn’t raise veterinary statistics for deer deaths in 1959 in the USSR, did you?
Make peace with your Google, give it a bouquet of roses, and ask just that question.

There was a Mansi revolt when the Soviet took their children to sent them to boarding schools, and the Soviet repression was brutal: they encircled Mansi tents and shot everybody inside.

Казымское восстание - было
1)  у хантов и ненцев
2)  в 1931—1934 годах
3) власти тогда были агрессивнее

Зачем Вы опять подменяете манси - хантами? Мансийско-Сосьвинская культбаза не имела в своей истории - таких печальных приключений. Потому что там были в основном - традиционно неагрессивные манси. Никто не отстреливался, даже когда в детей в интернате при культбазе: потравили до смертельных исходов. Манси погоревали и сделали выводы: откосить от отправки детей в школу. Им нужно было подрастающее поколение сберечь.

Kazym uprising - was
1) among the Khanty and Nenets
2) in 1931-1934
3) the authorities were more aggressive then

Why are you again replacing Mansi with Khanty? The Mansiysko-Sosvinskaya cult base did not have such sad adventures in its history. Because there were mostly - traditionally non-aggressive Mansi. No one fired back, even when the children in the boarding school at the cultural base were poisoned to death. Mansi grieved and drew conclusions: to avoid sending children to school. They needed to save the younger generation.

Cultures that barely emerged from the hunter-gatherer level had trends to repress intelligence and innovation. They don't have such thing as "philosophy" and they can't have. Their ideologies are conservative in the extreme, to the point of sclerosis. And as any other culture having shamanism as a religion, they are survivors of a previous more populated society and developed culture which fell apart for some reason, shamanism being a decomposed state of a previous and fully developed archaic religion.

Культуры/народы, которые и в настоящее время умудряются существовать за счет собирательства и использования даров природы: самые человечные на планете. Ибо они - беспокоятся о том как не угробить экологию, стараются обходиться тем что есть и не лезут к очень цивилизованным Гомо Сапиенс с нравоучениями и попытками переделать их. Эти народы-собиратели современности прекрасно представляют в какую яму катит прогресс человечество. Они ничего исправить не могут и не станут браться за непосильное.
Мне печально наблюдать, что Вы так оживленно машете крыльями своей цивилизованности, не понимая как курица - куда принесут Вас крылья...

Cultures / peoples that still manage to exist by collecting and using the gifts of nature: the most humane on the planet. For they are worried about how not to ruin the environment, they try to make do with what they have and do not climb to very civilized Homo sapiens with moralizing and attempts to remake them. These peoples-gatherers of modernity are perfectly aware of the pit into which progress humanity is rolling. They can’t fix anything and they won’t take on something beyond their strength.
I am sad to see that you are so animatedly flapping the wings of your civilization, not understanding like a chicken - where the wings will take you ...
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 06:11:15 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
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December 12, 2022, 06:31:33 AM
Reply #31


Sacrifice does not work this way. Killing a human victim and eating her will solve any issue: bad crops, sick cattle, epidemic among humans, drought and lack of rain, threat of invasion by other people, etc. Eating the victim is not the immediate and practical solution to starvation, but it will help the rain to fall, the crops to grow, the herds to multiply, the elks and the salmons to come back, the hunters to be lucky, etc. Because the victim is considered as the cause of the crisis, whatever the crisis.

And victims never allow their communities to kill them and eat them, the communities give such a version, not the victims. The victims resist, specially when they have parents, and that's why there is a constant and universal typology of victims who are the most often isolated and weak individuals: disabled, orphans, widows, strangers.
Жертвенность воплощается по разному. Всегда и с начала времен. Во всех религиях. Были люди сами выбиравшие этот последний путь и были те, кого разными способами отправляли в этот путь. Манси считали что жертва может быть тогда богоугодна, когда за неё заплачено либо трудами манси ( охота, рыболовство, оленеводство) либо она должна быть куплена. Второе подразумевает торгово-денежный обмен. Военнопленный тоже воспринимался результатами ратного труда. Традиции никогда не переписывались. Просто немного снижалась стоимость жертвы.

Sacrifice is embodied in different ways. Always and since the beginning of time. In all religions. There were people who chose this last path themselves, and there were those who were sent on this path in various ways. The Mansi believed that the sacrifice could then be pleasing to God when it was paid for either by the labors of the Mansi (hunting, fishing, reindeer herding) or it had to be bought. The second involves trade and money exchange. A prisoner of war was also perceived as the result of military labor. Traditions have never been rewritten. It just reduced the cost of the sacrifice a little.
У меня давно есть настроение привести Вам в пример вот эту историю. Перецелуйте ручки своего Гугла и переведите статью сами


Потом я Вас спрошу - что полезного Вы узнали из статьи чтоб применить это к Вашей идее о манси, жертвах и ритуалах.

I have long been in the mood to give you this story as an example. Kiss the hands of your Google and translate the article yourself
Then I will ask you - what useful information did you learn from the article in order to apply it to your idea about Mansi, victims and rituals.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 06:49:03 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...

December 12, 2022, 10:33:43 AM
Reply #32


The Mansi who didn't speak Russian and would need an "interpreter" to answer the investigators, the ones who sacrificed elks... it is dubious that they could give any credit to the Soviet veterinaries. Peasants, when their crops and cattle are threatened, they freak out, become violent and do many stupid and cruel things.

Дело в том, что это следователю переводчик был нужен и нужен больше, чем манси. Потому что он должен был понимать чего там манси рассказывали. Насколько это нужно вносить в протокол и как это можно использовать для целей следствия. Если Вас привлечь в России  в качестве свидетеля/допрашиваемого - понадобится ровно так же переводчик. Не взирая на всю Вашу цивилизованность и отсутствие в строке паспорта - записи "манси".

Если Вы обратитесь и к истории Казымской культбазы и к истории Мансийско-Сосьвенской культбазы, а если еще и почитаете про колхозы с оленеводческой основной деятельностью тех времен: Вас постигнет ужасное разочарование. Ветеринары в штате - были  и их было больше чем медицинских работников. Экономика требовала мяса и шкур. Олени же не для развлечения паслись стадами, а были производимыми как бы продуктами.

The fact is that the investigator needed a translator than Mansi. Because he had to understand what the Mansi were telling there. To what extent this should be included in the protocol and how it can be used for the purposes of the investigation. If you are involved in Russia as a witness / interrogated, you will need exactly the same translator. Despite all your civility and the absence of the entry "Mansi" in the passport line.

If you turn to the history of the Kazymskaya cult base and the history of the Mansiysko-Sosvenskaya cult base, and if you also read about the collective farms with the main activity of reindeer herding of those times: you will suffer a terrible disappointment. There were veterinarians in the state and there were more of them than medical workers. The economy demanded meat and skins. Deer did not grazed in herds for entertainment, but were produced, as it were, products.

Because these are neighboring and very similar cultures.
Such a thing does not exist, nobody is "traditionally non-aggressive".

Пойдите и удивите испанцев и итальянцев, что французы - их полная копия. Вы же соседи. Расстояние в километрах - как раз такое же как между основным поселением манси, основным поселением хантов и основным поселением ненцев. И исторически французы, испанцы и итальянцы постоянно общались и взаимообогащались культурными аспектами.

Угадать что Вы получите за такой тезис от итальянцев? И ровно такое же - от испанцев?

Go and surprise the Spaniards and Italians that the French are their complete copy. You are neighbors. The distance in kilometers is just the same as between the main Mansi settlement, the main Khanty settlement and the main Nenets settlement. And historically, the French, Spaniards and Italians constantly communicated and mutually enriched themselves with cultural aspects.

Guess what you will get for such a thesis from the Italians? And exactly the same - from the Spaniards?

For they are worried about how not to ruin the environment...


Я не нашла смайлика, чтоб пропорционально отразить размер беспокойства цивилизованных народов за сохранение планеты своего проживания. Наверное годится картинка из космоса - чтоб стало видно: какова помощь цивилизованных народов. Вырубленные леса, высушенные реки и озера, нефть в океане и прочая красота. Да уж.
Если все эти старания положить на часу весов Фемиды, то она станет однорукою. Держа оставшейся рукою чашу с тем, что положили ей смешные дикари...

I did not find an emoticon to proportionally reflect the amount of concern of civilized peoples for the preservation of the planet of their residence. Probably a picture from outer space is suitable - so that it becomes clear: what is the help of civilized peoples. Cut down forests, dried up rivers and lakes, oil in the ocean and other beauty. Yeah.
If all these efforts are put on the scales of Themis, then she will become one-handed. Holding with her remaining hand the cup with what the ridiculous savages put to her...
« Last Edit: December 12, 2022, 11:07:41 AM by Почемучка »
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...

December 12, 2022, 12:18:33 PM
Reply #33


Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...