Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Wolverine => Topic started by: Teddy on March 22, 2019, 03:08:56 AM

Title: Wolverine
Post by: Teddy on March 22, 2019, 03:08:56 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/DrvPt2n/Dyatlov-pass-wolverine.jpg)
Wolverine (lat. Gulo gulo) - a large representative of the mustelids subfamily. They love to eat, for which they got their name in Latin: translated Gulo - glutton. The weight of an adult individual ranges from 11 to 30 kg. They are kmown for their fierce and cruel temper. It is also the only beast that does not run away from danger, but attacks first. There are cases when a 30-pound beast has torn a bear, and there is a constant hunt for elks. And it's not just the character of the fighter. In addition to sharp claws, teeth and powerful jaws have a “secret weapon”. Like a skunk, if absolutely necessary, they can spray a rather stinky liquid - a discharge from special glands. Facts this theory is based on:
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 22, 2019, 05:00:14 AM
I'm pretty sure that this smell doesn't go away so easy (cat owner here ;) ) , so the search teams would have felt the smell.
For example if the cat pees on some shoes, they are compromised and I must throw them to garbage. The smells remains for years... (in fact I don't know if it ever disappears)
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: WAB on March 22, 2019, 05:25:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that this smell doesn't go away so easy (cat owner here ;) ) , so the search teams would have felt the smell.
For example if the cat pees on some shoes, they are compromised and I must throw them to garbage. The smells remains for years... (in fact I don't know if it ever disappears)

1.The Smell  glutton (or wolverene) much more proof than a smell of a cat.
2.Even if it is a smell has been muffled by a frost, it should feel in Ivdel when tent and things placed in Office of Public Prosecutor.
3.We saw traces of glutton on March, 12th when we came back from cedar to road to "Ilyich base". Traces have come out of the wood have approached almost to the top of vegetation and have gone back to wood. Therefore it is clear that the glutton in completely woodless place does not go. To it there it absolutely nothing do. About same me told local Mansi.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: sarapuk on March 22, 2019, 11:53:38 AM
I really can not see any way that a Wolverine or even a pack of them could be responsible for the Dyatlov Incident. One Wolverine on its own could be dealt with by 9 ADULTS. Several Wolverines could also be dealt with. I think too much as been made of the reputation of these animals. They may be fierce but they are also relatively small. A big Bear may have some difficulty with them because the Bear may not move as nimbly as say a HUMAN. But even a Bear could easily dispatch a Wolverine. Therefore a Wolverine or a pack of them is not going to force 9 ADULTS to abandon their means of survival and walk a mile poorly clothed and equipped. And also if any one was attacked by a Wolverine they would definitely fight back and inflict injury or death on the animal or animals.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Star man on March 24, 2019, 03:53:29 PM
If the tent was actually cut, then it's possible there was someone or something at the entrance, blocking their route out.  We seem to have all but ruled out a large predator, so coul it have been a Wolverine?  Personally I can't see it.  There were axes, knives that could have been used to dispatch it.

I also think the scent would still be on the tent when they recovered it.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:54:01 PM
If the tent was actually cut, then it's possible there was someone or something at the entrance, blocking their route out.  We seem to have all but ruled out a large predator, so coul it have been a Wolverine?  Personally I can't see it.  There were axes, knives that could have been used to dispatch it.

I also think the scent would still be on the tent when they recovered it.

Regards
Star man

If 400 kgs elk starts to stomping to your tent, then you will probably want to escape also fast...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Marchesk on April 18, 2019, 07:28:12 AM
If 400 kgs elk starts to stomping to your tent, then you will probably want to escape also fast...

There would also probably be evidence that a 400 kgs elk was in the area. Same with a bear. There were no animal tracks found in the area by the search party or the investigation. A large animal being responsible is even less likely than other people on the mountain, because other people can cover their tracks, which animals don't care to do.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 18, 2019, 07:57:48 AM
And yet the pork and bread within the tent remain untouched for weeks.    wink1

Now, maybe its just Americans, but imagine this with 9 fit hickers armed with big knives, a machete, and ice axes.   nea1


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtXCBEF5kE8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA8pxzawUGM
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: firefox on July 08, 2020, 11:01:53 AM
It was a wolverine on board a UFO, with a Yeti on board that shoots infrasound waves...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: sarapuk on July 09, 2020, 01:09:23 PM
It was a wolverine on board a UFO, with a Yeti on board that shoots infrasound waves...

Or maybe a YETI dropped off by a UFO to do the scary stuff.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 20, 2021, 09:47:14 PM
Link to the original source:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=47286

Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286

Common misconceptions about wolverine and its chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91970

P.S. This man knows what happened to the Dyatlov group:
https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on March 23, 2021, 01:03:01 AM
Link to the original source:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=47286

Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapons:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286

Common misconceptions about wolverine and its chemical weapons:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91970

P.S. This man knows what happened to the Dyatlov group:
https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw


Igor B .  This is the most convincing theory for me. Excellent work , very detailed and a lot of research . Step by step analysis to rib fractures , clothes, injuries,chronology of deaths and events. The photos and locations are extremely easy to understand. I cannot find a fault in anything you have wrote.A very satisfying explanation. Plus a lot of new information for me.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 03:51:34 AM
1.The Smell  glutton (or wolverene) much more proof than a smell of a cat.
2.Even if it is a smell has been muffled by a frost, it should feel in Ivdel when tent and things placed in Office of Public Prosecutor.
3.We saw traces of glutton on March, 12th when we came back from cedar to road to "Ilyich base". Traces have come out of the wood have approached almost to the top of vegetation and have gone back to wood. Therefore it is clear that the glutton in completely woodless place does not go. To it there it absolutely nothing do. About same me told local Mansi.
Common misconceptions about wolverine and its chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91970
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 03:54:32 AM
The wolverine is perhaps one of the least studied large carnivores in the world. Many people do not know that Wolverine has exactly the same chemical weapons as the skunk. The authors of this film don't know about it either (In English):

Phantom Wolverine
https://youtu.be/stYc6dLWqGM
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on March 28, 2021, 09:31:19 AM
Hi Игорь Б.

Can you post your links in English? I think people are having problems with translating when opening the links? I think I could copy and paste some. With your permission. I don't what the educate is on forums? Its your material.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 10:50:02 AM
Hi. I don't speak English. It's better if you translate from Russian than me. In the event of a translation error, it will be easier for you to guess the correct translation than for me.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on March 28, 2021, 11:26:47 AM


Спасибо Игорь Б.

Очень мило с Вашей стороны. На самом деле перевод, похоже, очень удачный. Я не хочу отдавать должное вашим исследованиям и работе. Все это звучит очень правдоподобно. На данный момент я не уверен в расширенных зрачках, но все еще читаю много вашей информации.


Thank you Игорь Б.

That's very kind of you. Actually the translation seems to come across very well. I don't want to take credit for your research and work. It all sounds very plausible. I am unsure about the dilated pupils at the moment but I am still reading through a lot of your information.


Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 09:40:47 PM
Why did only two people notice the yellow-orange stains on the clothes - Doroshenko's mother and Colonel Ortyukov?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=85577
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 29, 2021, 06:11:36 PM
What did the yellow-orange stains look like?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=73650
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=75346
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 30, 2021, 07:07:10 PM
The skin color of the corpses has nothing to do with the wolverine's chemical weapons.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52440
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 08, 2022, 05:13:14 PM
1 wolverine killed 9 people?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on January 08, 2022, 06:00:43 PM
Have you got a sister called Dona?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Morski on January 09, 2022, 12:20:09 AM
Have you got a sister called Dona?

 lol2
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 13, 2022, 07:33:52 AM
Who is Dona?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 18, 2022, 09:31:25 AM
Обратил внимание, что американцы совсем перестали интересоваться расследованием гибели группы Дятлова.
Полагаю, дело в том, что многие американцы лично на себе испытали ужасную вонь скунса. И когда они узнали, что и росомаха обладает точно таким же химическим оружием как и скунс им стала ясна причина оставления палатки и одежды, как никому другому и они покинули тему.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 18, 2022, 03:16:15 PM
              Reply #24
...............................

The wolverine theory from Igor B. has the great merit of being coherent and complete.

However, it remains difficult to understand for me because its exposition is scattered among the 2231 posts that are spread over the 113 web pages of the site:

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

So, in summary, a wolverine, which is an aggressive animal, very active and which eats a lot, gets into the tent and pushes the hikers away thanks to its unbearable smell.
Then all the hikers die.

What I did not understand is why afterwards everything happens as if the wolverine mysteriously disappears.

She has corpses at her disposal which are nourishing and abundant food for her and yet she doesn't touch them, except maybe a little piece of Krivonischenko's nose

What happened? A wolverine is however a clever and intelligent animal, always interested in finding all kinds of meat.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 18, 2022, 04:29:46 PM
Ответы на некоторые заблуждения по поводу версии с росомахой.

"Если бы там была росомаха, она объела бы трупы и съела продукты":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=51049
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 19, 2022, 12:35:55 AM


Igor explains it in his 113 pages. It is not as large as it seems and he links all the questions you ask. I find it absolutely bewildering that you have difficulty navigating from his explanation and Igor b's exposition is quite simple.

1:The Dyatlov group camp on the slope.(bad weather)

 2:Wolverine finds its way into to the tent. Not to attack the group but just following it's nose and the smell of food.( Igor supplies examples and statements of other campers experiencing the Wolverine entering their tent. )

3: Panic by the group and by the Wolverine occur in the tent.

4:The Wolverine does not attack/ fight in this situation,it is not a fighting beast in that respect. The Wolverine is as scared/surprised by the encounter as the group. When the Wolverine (like a skunk) feels threatened or can't escape, it's immediate , instinctive reaction when in a extreme difficult situation , is to spray it's chemical toxic defensive weapon. A last resort. ( There are numerous videos on YouTube of the Wolverine fighting wolves etc ) but when in a situation that it can't control, the Wolverine will spray.

5: Igor B's hypothesis is that the the toxic spray is the reason for the exit of the tent. Not the fighting or threat from the animal but the chemical reaction , like a tear gas grenade. This is a strong odour that hurts the eyes and lungs. Given the possibility that it happened directly in the tent would only amplify the toxic spray. ( Just watch some riot videos and see what happens)

6: with this confusion and the fact that the Dyatlov group would know little about what just happened ,they left their belongings , leaving their equipment and discarding their sprayed clothing behind. Having suffered the irritant in its strongest dosage in a confined space, approaching the tent would add to the suffering to the group. ( By the way, skunk spray can knock a dog out) .

7: At this point we can forget the Wolverine, it's gone, it's ran off into the wilderness. The possibility of spray by the Wolverine also gives valadility to the reference of behaviour of the search dogs not willing to exit the helicopter. This is a indication of odd behaviour, also the fact that this was note worthy as to have been documented is interesting to me.

8:  as the foot prints show,the group left the tent and went towards the treeline..  Igor b then  explains /expands on what followed. It was a series of unfortunate events and the cold. He continues  by explaining why some had frostbite and others didn't for example and Why the ribs are broken in the way they were , as there are a number of different ways ribs break .....and the devil is in the detail.....( his 113 pages are linked to evidence based practice or medical examples) . There are explanations to the hand injuries, the body positions and why they occurred as a result of hypothermia.. (I have also found links to fractures of skulls from freezing ) .

---------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, Igor b"s explanation of the bodies and why they were found in their relative positions/ conditions is more interesting than the Wolverine part of the hypothesis. I would argue that his account of what followed the exit of the tent is the most  conclusive part of his argument against foul play / outsiders/ government badmen . 

Below is copied from Igor b's link. There is more than I have shown as it links to examples . But the Wolverine only plays a small part , it is the toxic stink that makes them leave the tent and it is that stink that stops them from returning to the tent .

------------------------------------------------------------------

Answers to some misconceptions about the wolverine version.

"If there was a wolverine, it would eat the corpses and eat the food."

Practically excluded and immediately for several reasons:

1. Stink.
From the tent and tourists smelled no longer of prey, but of the enemy. And the wolverine must distinguish between its own "marking" and "combat" smells (otherwise, why would it need different glands):


Otherwise, instead of the marked with her stash, she will again smell her recent enemy, from whom she barely swept her legs. Thus, a wolverine can mark his stash with a marking gland, urine, excrement, but never with the fluid of a fighting gland.

Products sprayed with the liquid of the battle gland will not be eaten by anyone, including the wolverine herself.
Not only because of the stench, but also because the mercaptans that make up this liquid are toxic.

2. Tearing
In addition to the stench, this weapon, due to its causticity, also has the properties of tear gas, whose effects in a confined space can last for several days:
Quote
For a week they could not enter the basement after the skunk attack without crying.

3. Fright.
Wolverine rarely uses his "chemical weapon" and if she did, then she was very scared. Why should she return to where she fled in fright?d it's defence weapon . It will not comeback to eat anything , neither will any other animal come near the bodies. ( Again , the
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 19, 2022, 12:52:36 AM
Ziljoe, большое спасибо за разъяснения на английском языке. Я думаю, русский язык для многих иностранцев является препятствием к пониманию.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 20, 2022, 10:53:46 AM
Even then there's no excuse for not taking all the coats (that were presumably sprayed), and towels with them.
Я не знаю, что они говорят (перевод субтитров ужасен), но я вижу, что они избавляются от одежды:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=105709
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=108590

Вещи, которые сразу же не вынесли из палатки с каждой секундой пребывания в очаге поражения всё больше и больше пропитывались вонью и стали совершенно непригодными к использованию кем-то ни было. Напомню, что непосредственное попадание жидкости на вещи необязательно:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56307

Чтобы воспользоваться вещами, их нужно было выкидывать из палатки сразу же, мгновенно. Счёт шёл не на минуты, а буквально на секунды. Конечно дятловцы растерялись. Пока они выбежали из палатки, пока размышляли что делать дальше, время было упущено.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 21, 2022, 10:06:33 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

2:Wolverine finds its way into to the tent. Not to attack the group but just following it's nose and the smell of food.( Igor supplies examples and statements of other campers experiencing the Wolverine entering their tent.)

Yes but the hikers were not sleeping. The two with shoes on were already outside (Does somebody know a Russian who does not take his shoes off when at home ?) and close to the entry. Slobodin was pulling his shoes on, sitting just close to the entry. And very probably, the others were all awake inside the tent.

The Wolverine didn't enter the tent at night when they were all sleeping, no surprise and no panic reaction for either party.

It was at daylight, either at dawn (my favor goes to dawn) or at dusk... then what surprise ? What panic ? And in open and flat terrain, not in a deep forest.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 21, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

2:Wolverine finds its way into to the tent. Not to attack the group but just following it's nose and the smell of food.( Igor supplies examples and statements of other campers experiencing the Wolverine entering their tent.)

Yes but the hikers were not sleeping. The two with shoes on were already outside (Does somebody know a Russian who does not take his shoes off when at home ?) and close to the entry. Slobodin was pulling his shoes on, sitting just close to the entry. And very probably, the others were all awake inside the tent.

The Wolverine didn't enter the tent at night when they were all sleeping, no surprise and no panic reaction for either party.

It was at daylight, either at dawn (my favor goes to dawn) or at dusk... then what surprise ? What panic ? And in open and flat terrain, not in a deep forest.
Ha ha  Charles , my cunning and wise friend.


I agree on a couple of things. That it was dawn or dusk. The food in the tent and two of them better dressed  than the others   does indicate they weren't asleep. .

It could of been the start of morning duties and the stove could of been used through the night and packed up for the next stage of the journey.

As for the Wolverine , it could of got into the tent in a number of ways. Once in the tent, especially if they had the curtain , the beast might not have been able to make a quick exit and there the potential to spray.

Just a thought but I like your thinking Charles. Your points are always valid. I'm reading your other post at the moment which is an interesting observation.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 23, 2022, 02:42:51 AM
Dear Ziljoe,

so kind of you ! embarrassed1

I could agree with the wolverine entering the tent in such surroundings:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-06.jpg

and in the middle of the night when they were all asleep, but not in the open in the morning, with two hikers already outside on their feet and the others waking up in the inside, moving, talking, laughing or arguing... and cursing about cold and moist that very night without stove.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 23, 2022, 09:45:19 AM
Происшествие случилось 1 февраля днём, с 13 до 15 часов. Доказано обледенением следов-столбиков. Вечером похолодало и обледенение следов стало невозможным. А не обледеневшие следы-столбики долго не сохраняются (1-2 дня).
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68954

В момент происшествия никого снаружи не было. Вход в палатку был застёгнут. Это доказано тем,  что из входа наружу была вытащена часть полога. Если бы вход не был застёгнут полог задуло бы внутрь палатки.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56923

Этот полог дважды сыграл роковую роль в происшествии. Сначала он не позволил росомахе вовремя увидеть людей в палатке, а потом помешал ей быстро найти выход из неё.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 23, 2022, 12:53:50 PM
Once in the tent, especially if they had the curtain, the beast might not have been able to make a quick exit and there the potential to spray.

How to enter if not using the entry ? But Slobodin was at the entry grabbing his second valenka to pull it on, and then ready to wear his jacket hanging at the pole and join the two others outside the tent. A wolverine is not such a small animal, the two hikers already outside should have been able to see him arriving from far away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JEkfO7I44o

Wolverines are not stealth animals, not at all, they are more like ferrets... they seem to be always high on some weird molecules Nature provided them in abundance... and have no inhibition whatsoever: these narcissists love to draw attention to themselves. Have you seen the wolverine on a snowy slope ? Reindeers, wolves, eagles, bears, capercaillies, lynxes, lagopedes... everybody around stop and watch... and say: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." But they can't stop watching because the show is constantly updated with some new stuff. And all of the animals enjoy the show but pray God that he'd never find a trumpet or a drum. The ugly truth is that wolverines have histrionic personality disorder: a personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive attention-seeking behaviors, usually beginning in early childhood, including inappropriate seduction and an excessive desire for approval, people diagnosed with the disorder are said to be lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious... as perfectly illustrated the images of the exalted on the snowy slope.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 23, 2022, 08:37:17 PM
Слободин потерял валенок, когда выползал из палатки на четвереньках. Или кто-то наступил на его валенок или он зацепился голенищем валенка за край разреза.

Никого снаружи палатки не было. Это глупый миф, основанный на том, что якобы в момент происшествия двое были полностью одеты. Это не так.
Золотарёв был укрыт курткой Дубининой, а на Тибо была куртка Слободина. Никто не будет выходить из палатки в чужой куртке, тем более, что Золотарёву куртка Дубининой была точно мала.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 23, 2022, 11:31:39 PM
Once in the tent, especially if they had the curtain, the beast might not have been able to make a quick exit and there the potential to spray.

How to enter if not using the entry ? But Slobodin was at the entry grabbing his second valenka to pull it on, and then ready to wear his jacket hanging at the pole and join the two others outside the tent. A wolverine is not such a small animal, the two hikers already outside should have been able to see him arriving from far away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JEkfO7I44o

Wolverines are not stealth animals, not at all, they are more like ferrets... they seem to be always high on some weird molecules Nature provided them in abundance... and have no inhibition whatsoever: these narcissists love to draw attention to themselves. Have you seen the wolverine on a snowy slope ? Reindeers, wolves, eagles, bears, capercaillies, lynxes, lagopedes... everybody around stop and watch... and say: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." They can't stop watching because the show is constantly updated with some new stuff. And all of the animals enjoy the show but pray God that he'd never find a trumpet or a drum. The ugly truth is that they have histrionic personality disorder: a personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive attention-seeking behaviors, usually beginning in early childhood, including inappropriate seduction and an excessive desire for approval, people diagnosed with the disorder are said to be lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious... as perfectly illustrated the images of the wolverine on the snowy slope.

Hi Charles

Perhaps the Wolverine knocked on the entrance of the tent and asked politely to come in. He is that clever???

To enter the tent , the Wolverine could of come in from any side of the tent at the snowline of where the  ground meets the tent. The beast could have also entered through the dedicated entrance . The entrance , I believe is flaps with some buckles/toggles , along with some kind of sheet sewn to the inside of the tent, to act as insulation from the entrance.

Everything may actually be in reverse. Charlie, you mentioned about the talk of conspiring to enter the tents in twos,from the diaries,when you previously discussed with passion about desire, tension and sex within the group.

My interpretation leans  along the lines of they would have had to plan together, in pairs, to enter the tent. Synonyms of the word conspire are for example... corporate/team up/ join/unite.

Given the size of the tent and number of the group , I would suspect that there was quite an organised plan to enter the tent in twos , especially if they selected the exposed slope in bad weather and their agreed time to actually brush teeth etc and go to bed.They would need to sort their belongs at the door within the possible changing area or as you suggested, an entry hall. The point being is , they may have being going into the tent and taking off boots. Plus there is no evidence of two of them being outside the tent at that moment in time , if they were outside they could have been looking at the view and not in any direction from whence a Wolverine might stroll up from. Although the records implies two were better dressed , this was other people's clothes.

I shall translate Igor b's statement here:
(There was no one outside the tent. This is a silly myth based on the fact that the two were allegedly fully clothed at the time of the incident. This is not true.
Zolotarev was covered with Dubinina's jacket, and Thibault was wearing Slobodin's jacket. No one will leave the tent in someone else's jacket, especially since Dubinina's jacket was definitely small for Zolotarev)

Any entrance of a Wolverine would be a surprise, like it or not. I have experience of  camping in winter , it was light snow and I had gone to the local restaurant for a drink. On my return , I lit my wood stove for heat and started to cook some bacon. I had heated up my water for tea and was concerned about the wind as it was flapping the tent considerably. It is a sealed tent , double layered. As I was drinking my tea and eating my bacon roll ,I heard the growl and hiss that only a cat can do. Some how a cat had got into the tent whilst I was out at the restaurant and hid whilst I was heating my food. Obviously not dangerous but  the fright I got was off the scale and I like cats and know they are harmless, however there was panic by me for 5 seconds  , this panic then turned to concern of how I remove this growling cat from my tent without it clawing the tent to bits and wreaking the inside of my rather expensive lavvu. Although not a perfect example, under different circumstances I can clearly  see the possibility of the Wolverine hypothesis.

The Wolverine seems to be the size of an average dog with more fur, maybe different sizes depending on where they evolved from. You can see lots of things if we look in the right direction but if we are looking in the opposite direction we will not see it.
 

The Wolverine must be a bit stealthy as the narrator says on your video link of the Wolverine."If you are ever unlucky to get get close to one, chances are they will disappear before you ever know they were there"

It would seem bears , lynx , wolves also leap and play in the snow but the Wolverine is illusive . But the following bit confused me Charles, where you say:

"The ugly truth is that they have histrionic personality disorder: "

Why are we projecting human disorders on a animal in its own habitat?



Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 23, 2022, 11:50:47 PM
So when the wolverine saw the tourists from far away, he said to himself: "These Soviet tourist won't go back to their city without a souvenir of me, they'll remember my name, I gonna spray them to the bones!" He made a long detour to position himself more on the slope, above the tent, and then he went on full olympic downhill mode, sliding at high speed straight to the tent. At the last moment he threw is hands forward, all claws out, closed his eyes and screamed "Huraaaaaah!"... That's how in entered the tent, and then, he sprayed the tourist like hell, like the police fires tear gas at hooligans outside football stadiums, he switched on anti-riot police mode... That's why the tourists couldn't see him arriving, because it was all premeditated. And the tear gas was frozen on the clothes, the fabric and everything, when later it defrost in the heat of the forensic medicine building, they all recognize the awful scent and the forensic team said: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." (a very common sentence in the Urals). But the rescuers who had a keen sense of smell, they already knew the truth. The sad part of the story being that the young Soviet engineers solved their eye irritation problem with a 2 km walk barefoot in the forest, which was a pretty stupid solution and a deadly one in the end (there was a urban legend at that time in Russia saying that walking barefoot in the snow could calm eye irritation). And it is also the moral of the story, that engineers solutions are not always the best.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 24, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

Plus there is no evidence of two of them being outside the tent at that moment in time

Yes there is, one of the few things we can understand for sure from the available data. Two hikers had their shoes on and were already outside, Slobodin had pulled on only one valenka and his jacket was hanging at the pole at the door, and the others were barefoot and inside. The one valenka + jacket hanging at the door means Slobodin was at the door preparing to go out (or in). But the two who had their shoes on and wore jackets were deeper inside the tent than Slobodin?

And by the way, some hikers wore Yudin's clothes, Zina wore Doroshenko's mittens and Krivonishenko's jacket, wearing somebody's else clothes happened previously and was not at all impossible.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 24, 2022, 12:42:12 AM
Why are we projecting human disorders on a animal in its own habitat?

Because animals are damn anarchists and using them as characters in our stories to express human flaws works well and is as old as humanity. See Aesop's fables, Phaedra's fables, Homer's Batrachomyomachia (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hesiod,_the_Homeric_Hymns_and_Homerica/The_Battle_of_the_Frogs_and_Mice)...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 01:47:15 AM
So when the wolverine saw the tourists from far away, he said to himself: "These Soviet tourist won't go back to their city without a souvenir of me, I gonna spray them to the bones!" He made a long detour to position himself more on the slope, above the tent, and then went on full olympic downhill mode, sliding at high speed straight to the tent. At the last moment he threw is hands forward, all claws out, closed his eyes and screamed "Huraaaaaah!"... That's how in entered the tent, and then, he sprayed the tourist like hell, like the police fires tear gas at hooligans outside football stadiums, he went on anti-riot police mode... That's why the tourists couldn't see him arriving, because it was all premeditated. And the tear gas was frozen on the clothes, the fabric and everything, when later it defrost in the heat of the forensic medicine building, they all recognize the awful scent and the forensic team said: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." (a very common sentence in the Urals). But the rescuers who had a keen sense of smell, they already knew the truth. The sad part of the story being that the young Soviet engineers solved their eye irritation problem with a 2 km walk barefoot in the forest, which was a pretty stupid solution and a deadly one in the end (there was a urban legend at that time in Russia saying that walking barefoot in the snow could calm eye irritation). And it is also the moral of the story, that engineers solutions are not always the best.

The Wolverine does not think like that( although quite funny) . The Wolverine has no plan for it to be written and talked about for many years later . We know little about the Wolverine today let alone  back in 1959. If I remember correctly, the entrance to the tent was mostly fully buttoned up.  The Wolverine could easily have found its way into the tent in a number of ways, especially with the motive for food. It is easy for an animal to get into a tent by poking it's nose under the lip.  It's the unknown for the tourists that may have been the problem.  We know skunk spray effects dogs and irritates humans. The spray can cause quite severe symptoms. If you did not know what the limitation of being sprayed was and that more exposure to this chemical might makes things worse or even kill , would you approach the tent? Once the eyes and lungs are irritated, to return to the area of spray would just enhance the pain.

The searchers dogs behaviour was questioned when exiting the helicopter at the dyatlovpass. This is a link to the spray smell. It's  nature's own formula and tear gas is an example that followed nature.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 01:56:45 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

Plus there is no evidence of two of them being outside the tent at that moment in time

Yes there is, one of the few things we can understand for sure from the available data. Two hikers had their shoes on and were already outside, Slobodin had pulled on only one valenka and his jacket was hanging at the pole at the door, and the others were barefoot and inside. The one valenka + jacket hanging at the door means Slobodin was at the door preparing to go out (or in). But the two who had their shoes on and wore jackets were deeper inside the tent than Slobodin?

And by the way, some hikers wore Yudin's clothes, Zina wore Doroshenko's mittens and Krivonishenko's jacket, wearing somebody's else clothes happened previously and was not at all impossible.

I am not sure of the exact arrangement of how the entered and exited the tent. There may have been some standard operating procedure where one takes the boots off the other.

If some of the clothes were swapped how do we know slobidins jacket was hanging at the door of the tent , someone else could have been wearing it?.

Plus , if the hikers outside the tent would see a Wolverine , why didn't they see any attackers first to warn the others. Why did the tent get cut?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 24, 2022, 02:09:08 AM
Случай, когда росомаха залезла в армейскую палатку, полную бодрствующих солдат:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=71513

Случай, когда росомаха зашла в дом в присутствии человека:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szRbXKiVgt4

Случаи, когда росомаха не боится человека:

https://youtu.be/wMwCLXmZMHs

https://youtu.be/o2anN3iKu-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnJG5kh1Drg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOE4Do6ChU

https://youtu.be/4ri1STUt-nw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjalYvbK93o

https://youtu.be/FAci6zlNtdA?t=113
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 02:16:30 AM
Why are we projecting human disorders on a animal in its own habitat?

Because animals are damn anarchists and using them as characters in our stories to express human flaws works well and is as old as humanity. See Aesop's fables, Phaedra's fables, Homer's Batrachomyomachia (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hesiod,_the_Homeric_Hymns_and_Homerica/The_Battle_of_the_Frogs_and_Mice)...

Animals may follow no government but they do follow certain rules amongst themselves. I am a bit lost with describing the Wolverine as a narcissistic animal . It follows it's nose for food and that's as exciting as it gets. There is no more story to the Wolverine theory other than wondering into the tent, getting stuck , spray and move on.

It leaves 9 tourists outside their tent with watery eyes and uncomfortable smells wondering what just happened.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 24, 2022, 04:55:35 AM
If some of the clothes were swapped how do we know slobidins jacket was hanging at the door of the tent , someone else could have been wearing it?.

It was Slobodin's valenka + Slobodin's jacket at the same place, so in that case, Slobodin was there, pulling is second valenka on and ready to put his jacket on.

Plus , if the hikers outside the tent would see a Wolverine , why didn't they see any attackers first to warn the others.

Because the attackers had no need to declare themselves as attackers from a long distance. They could just wave the hand as a friendly salute, get close to the tent and then only show their real intentions.

Once the eyes and lungs are irritated, to return to the area of spray would just enhance the pain.

I guess it is very rare that wolverine or skunk spray could kill humans... isn't it ? Were the hikers so soft and gentle they preferred to die rather to endure the temporary discomfort of wolverine spray ? I think the hikers were much softer than the loggers, but not softer to that point. No if they had been sprayed by a wolverine, they would make stupid jokes like: "That's it, Sacha just pulled his shoes out!" or "What bastard just farted?"... they were good at making stupid jokes according to Zina.

I am a bit lost with describing the Wolverine as a narcissistic animal

"Lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious" is the perfect description of the wolverine's character, don't you agree ?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 05:19:58 AM
If some of the clothes were swapped how do we know slobidins jacket was hanging at the door of the tent , someone else could have been wearing it?.

It was Slobodin's valenka + Slobodin's jacket at the same place, so in that case, Slobodin was there, pulling is second valenka on and ready to put his jacket on.

Plus , if the hikers outside the tent would see a Wolverine , why didn't they see any attackers first to warn the others.

Because the attackers had no need to declare themselves as attackers from a long distance. They could just wave the hand as a friendly salute, get close to the tent and then only show their real intentions.

Once the eyes and lungs are irritated, to return to the area of spray would just enhance the pain.

I guess it is very rare that wolverine or skunk spray could kill humans... isn't it ? Were the hikers so soft and gentle they preferred to die rather to endure the temporary discomfort of wolverine spray ? I think the hikers were much softer than the loggers, but not softer to that point. No if they had been sprayed by a wolverine, they would make stupid jokes like: "That's it, Sacha just pulled his shoes out!" or "What bastard just farted?"... they were good at making stupid jokes according to Zina.

I am a bit lost with describing the Wolverine as a narcissistic animal

"Lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious" is the perfect description of the wolverine's character, don't you agree ?

Some one will need to tell me how to separate the quotes.  grin1

Thibault was found wearing Slobidins jacket?  So when did the suprise come to cut open the tent from these others ?

The spray did not kill them. It was the accidents that followed. Weather , snow bridge etc. They would not know what the spray was or how serious it was. It would have been concentrated in the tent and more potent . If it was daylight it is on that reason they may have decided to look for water to wash. Left their torch on the slope for direction to return to the tent.  I think the spray is more than a fart smell.

"Lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious" is the perfect description of the wolverine's character, don't you agree ? No, I don't agree with histrionic personality disorder in an animal.

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 06:04:01 AM
The spray did not kill them. It was the accidents that followed. Weather , snow bridge etc. They would not know what the spray was or how serious it was.

So, when the hikers arrived at Heaven's doors, they met St Peter:

"How did you come to me, my young fellows?" he asked.
"We were sprayed by a wolverine without our knowledge and then we had accidents."
"Michael ! Michael !" called St Peter.
"Here I am" answered Archangel St Michael, "to your service, Holy Father."
"Tell me Michael, sprayed by a wolverine without knowledge and then accidents: is that stupid or bad luck?"
"That is stupid, Holy Father" answered Archangel St Michael, "and somehow outrageously delicate, shall I say".
"We really don't appreciate bad smells" approved the hikers, "life is not worth living in a smelly environment."
"So you'll be housed in the stupid sector" said St Peter, "Let me find in my book... Hum... Hum... Please, Michael, tell me: where is stupid sector? I can't find the coordinates in my book!"
"Stupid sector is Earth, Holy Father." answered Archangel St Michael, "as it has always been since Genesis."
"Ah, that's why... I'm getting old and I'm losing my memory... So, back to life, my young fellows: stupids age very well and I have no room for you up here."

And therefore, the hikers could not have died at Dyatlov's Pass.


Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 26, 2022, 07:02:32 AM
О невыносимости зловония химического оружия росомахи (скунса):
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=77684

О едкости и слезоточивости химического оружия росомахи (скунса):
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90993

https://youtu.be/6nPUnmbPYHE

https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw

https://youtu.be/RceOgHtHgU8

О воздействии и сроках выветривания запаха скунса (росомахи) при низких температурах:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68185
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 07:20:24 AM
https://youtu.be/6nPUnmbPYHE

https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw

https://youtu.be/RceOgHtHgU8

That is to say: if they were Russians, theses guys would run under a car, jump off a cliff, hang themselves or shoot a bullet in their heads? Why don't Westerners choose death and how can they endure so easily the pain? They don't even call for help! They just cough and spit and curse. Are Westerners made of steel? Are Russians such sissies? I can't believe it. "Smell or death: what do you choose ? Death !" No way... The last ones, the couple, they even laugh at it... the girl is coughing and laughing at the same time...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 08:10:13 AM
https://youtu.be/RceOgHtHgU8

I like so much their reaction, and the girl laughing in the end... I like her a lot, she's funny and easy going.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 26, 2022, 10:20:49 AM
Quote
Легкий запах скунса совсем не тошнотворный, какой-то жжено-резиновый. А то, что запах может быть ТАКОЙ силы, что просто вырубает и дыхание, и зрение в одну секунду, я до этого не знала.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68185

Большое количество вещества и небольшое закрытое помещение - залог успеха.

Сколько вещества у маленького скунса:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPVjJXs6WnE

А сколько вещества у большой росомахи?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 03:14:56 PM
The spray did not kill them. It was the accidents that followed. Weather , snow bridge etc. They would not know what the spray was or how serious it was.

So, when the hikers arrived at Heaven's doors, they met St Peter:

"How did you come to me, my young fellows?" he asked.
"We were sprayed by a wolverine without our knowledge and then we had accidents."
"Michael ! Michael !" called St Peter.
"Here I am" answered Archangel St Michael, "to your service, Holy Father."
"Tell me Michael, sprayed by a wolverine without knowledge and then accidents: is that stupid or bad luck?"
"That is stupid, Holy Father" answered Archangel St Michael, "and somehow outrageously delicate, shall I say".
"We really don't appreciate bad smells" approved the hikers, "life is not worth living in a smelly environment."
"So you'll be housed in the stupid sector" said St Peter, "Let me find the number in my book... Hum... Hum... Please, Michael, tell me: where is stupid sector? I can't find the coordinates in my book!"
"Stupid sector is Earth, Holy Father." answered Archangel St Michael, "as it has always been since Genesis."
"Ah, that's why... I'm getting old and I'm losing my memory... So, back to life, my young fellows: stupids age very well and I have no room for you up here."

And therefore, the hikers could not have died at Dyatlov's Pass.

Charles

So God did it?

On a serious note, if they were sprayed in the tent,in a confined space, the effects would be more powerful. They would have little water available to try and wash, if they had any at all. I believe it is reasonable to assume they would have little or no knowledge of a Wolverine defensive spray. If their eyes, throat etc hurt it would be quite plausible that the effects were enough to cause the exit of the tent. This is also the context of some clothing being discarded around the tent. Anything that was sprayed or even in the tent area would only cause more irritation. Who knows, they may have tried rubbing snow on their faces and hands but it didn't help.

If they were to think they might go blind for example from more exposure to the spray they would discard what clothing they could. Water wouldn't help but they would not know that , neither would they know that waiting would have been the best thing to do.

The reason for the footprints may have been to reduced vision or the hope that they would find a stream by walking  abreast instead of single file. If your eyes and throat are burning , you don't know why, you not have water, what would you do?

Anyway, they are just thoughts.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 04:11:44 PM
So God did it?

God does not allow death by wolverine spray.

I believe it is reasonable to assume they would have little or no knowledge of a Wolverine defensive spray.

I thought they were confirmed hikers and native Russians ? Are you saying they were unable to link an eye irritation and the presence of a wolverine in their tent ? Please...

The reason for the footprints may have been to reduced vision or the hope that they would find a stream by walking  abreast instead of single file.

You really have a low opinion of them, lower than I have in my worst hypothesis.

If your eyes and throat are burning , you don't know why, you not have water, what would you do?

You don't know why ? According to you, they had a wolverine in their tent, they were Russian hikers from the eastern slopes of the Urals, smart students and engineers and they were unable to understand they were sprayed by the little guy ?

I was gased many times by the police during political rallies against the regime I attended in Paris when I was younger. We never ever felt the need to dive into the Seine... In the contrary, there was always a batch of beautiful girls just meters behind the front line, who were observing the most determined guys and hoping to get lucky... We were pretending not to feel any harm just to make a good impression on these girls... walking through clouds of tear gas as if it was morning fog in the forest... Young people can be stupid, I concede, but not to the point to dive into the Seine or walk kilometers in the deadly cold of Siberia in search of a stream just because of eye irritation.

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 26, 2022, 04:19:02 PM
Ключевой факт происшествия - расширенные зрачки.
У замёрзших трезвыми зрачки всегда узкие, без исключений:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=51908
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52035

Условия освещения на этот признак не влияют. В противном случае получилось бы, что все пьяные всегда замерзают только в темноте, а все трезвые всегда только на свету.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 05:33:27 PM
So God did it?

God does not allow death by wolverine spray.

I believe it is reasonable to assume they would have little or no knowledge of a Wolverine defensive spray.

I thought they were confirmed hikers and native Russians ? Are you saying they were unable to link an eye irritation and the presence of a wolverine in their tent ? Please...

The reason for the footprints may have been to reduced vision or the hope that they would find a stream by walking  abreast instead of single file.

You really have a low opinion of them, lower than I have in my worst hypothesis.

If your eyes and throat are burning , you don't know why, you not have water, what would you do?

You don't know why ? According to you, they had a wolverine in their tent, they were Russian hikers from the eastern slopes of the Urals, smart students and engineers and they were unable to understand they were sprayed by the little guy ?

I was gased many times by the police during political rallies against the regime I attended in Paris when I was younger. We never ever felt the need to dive into the Seine... In the contrary, there was always a batch of beautiful girls just meters behind the front line, who were observing the most determined guys and hoping to get lucky... We were pretending not to feel any harm just to make a good impression on these girls... walking through clouds of tear gas as if it was morning fog in the forest... Young people can be stupid, I concede, but not to the point to jump in the Seine or walk kilometers in the deadly cold of Siberia in search of a stream.

Hi Charles,

I'm no expert on God but you seem to have him on speed dial , so ask him and let us all know what happened.

The key component of the hypothesis is the spray in a confined space. In the tent.i will translate what Igor b just posted.

(The key fact of the incident is dilated pupils.
Frozen sober pupils are always narrow, without exception:)
(Lighting conditions do not affect this feature. Otherwise, it would turn out that all drunk people always freeze only in the dark, and all sober people always only in the light.)

Being a confirmed hiker or native Russian has nothing to do with getting sprayed or knowing what a Wolverine can do if you have never been informed. The level of irritation is the question. Is the spray that bad? I do not know for sure but I am lead to believe that it is worse than a skunk. Igor b shares links to others that have experienced this spray and has observed their comments. I am not saying they can't link the spray to the Wolverine but I am implying that this chemical in their eyes was enough to cause alarm and worry. When I say they did not have knowledge of the Wolverine I mean they most likely not know about it's chemical spray. Little is known about it to this day. So in 1959 less was known. It is uncommon for a Wolverine to use this spray and the investigating authorities at the time probably didn't think of it. If they did not know about what was in this spray or the outcome to long exposure to these chemicals, you don't just sit in the snow unable to return to the tent with eyes hurting . Action must be taken.

I don't think it's a low opinion to try to understand what may have taken place. If it was seen as a medical issue and they were concerned about what was taking place, it would be logical to seek water and shelter?.

And when I say you don't know why, I mean they did not know why, as in, what is happening or just happened. To take it from their perspective, they didn't have Google! . They were in a situation that they did not fully understand because it was most likely not in their survival manual !


As for this story by you Charles.

"I was gased many times by the police during political rallies against the regime I attended in Paris when I was younger. We never ever felt the need to dive into the Seine... In the contrary, there was always a batch of beautiful girls just meters behind the front line, who were observing the most determined guys and hoping to get lucky... We were pretending not to feel any harm just to make a good impression on these girls... walking through clouds of tear gas as if it was morning fog in the forest... Young people can be stupid, I concede, but not to the point to jump in the Seine or walk kilometers in the deadly cold of Siberia in search of a stream."

1) you knew you were getting gased, you also knew that there would be no long-term detrimental harm. Total different context.

2) we don't know if the gas you experienced was the same chemicals as what the hikers experienced.

3) you say you were pretending not to feel any harm which would imply you felt harm? If you were to  know nothing about tear gas and you were subject to it , I am sure your reaction would be different to your experience at the riot where you knew what was happening.

4) you were at a riot suffering harm to Impress women, how noble????? And you say these women were thinking they want to get lucky with the guys that last the longest in tear gas???? Because that's a real turn on I'm sure? Darwinism at its finest.....you do reference, lust, desire, sex , women's thighs etc in most of your ever changing hypothesis. Maybe it's you that has a low opinion of the loggers, Mansi , Dyatolv himself and the dynamics of the group.

5 ) They are not looking to jump in the river Seini or any other river.They are looking to find water. If your eyes are burning and there's muck in your throat and lungs what do you drink or rinse if everything is snow?

Ps,
Let us all know if you made love after the riot.....

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 06:34:41 PM
This is from Igor b's links that he posted. Translated to English , so there might be some errors. If you use his links directly you will see the photos, references to medical research and sourced information. It should be of interest to those that favour outsiders using a gas grenade also , or force. The dilated pupils are another example of how some sort of toxins were involved, please enjoy this rather detailed explanation and research by Igor b.

--------------------------------------

Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils. Only in Kolmogorova the state of the pupils is not described. (For obvious reasons, the state of the pupils is not described in the four found in the stream, so we are not talking about them).

10 years ago, questions of statistics of signs of death from hypothermia interested an expert from Khabarovsk Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
http://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=1891
He did a great job of studying 100 cases of death from cold and freezing.

Interesting things have come to light. For example, it turned out that the “pose of a chilled person”, which was considered almost mandatory for a frozen person, was met only in 2% of cases.
But the main thing is the pupils. Of the 100 examined, 13 were sober and all had constricted pupils. 87 of the frozen ones were drunk and they all had dilated pupils.


Thus, if the cause of death is freezing and the person was sober, the pupils will definitely be constricted (100%).



The examination established the absence of alcohol among tourists. And according to a number of other signs and evidence of Yu. Yudin, there is no reason to doubt their sobriety. Then the most likely cause of dilated pupils is the preliminary poisoning of tourists.

There is still no doubt about freezing as the cause of death. This is indicated by the main, "reinforced concrete" signs of freezing observed in the dead:
Cerebral edema 99%
Juiciness, plethora of the soft integument of the skull 91%
Plethora of heart cavities 95%
Lungs on a dark red section 98%
Vishnevsky's spots 95%

But the version with a certain chemical effect, as the cause initiating the tragedy, receives weighty evidence.
The rest of the versions are inconsistent, because. cannot make pupils dilated when they should be narrow .

Why did the medical examiner overlook this?
The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny could experience a lack of information and accumulated statistical data on this issue at that time.
Modern "invited" experts - because of the lack of practice in this particular type of expertise.

There may be misconceptions that the pupils of the frozen were dilated, allegedly due to darkness. This is not true.
Pupils cease to react to light at the last stage of freezing, even during life. After death, the width of the pupils is controlled by completely different processes.


Quote
The pupils are constricted, do not react to light.


Quote
The reaction to light is sharply weakened or lost.

The pupils do not care - it is dark or light, the eyelids are open or closed, however, in sober people they will be narrowed in 100% of cases, and in drunken people they will be expanded in 100% of cases.
Lighting conditions do not affect this attribute. Otherwise, it would turn out that all drunk people always freeze only in the dark, and all sober people always only in the light.


Returning to the question of abnormally dilated pupils in those who are frozen sober:


It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
And the pupils are really very dilated:

( In Igor's b link there is a photo of the dilated eye pupil of Dyatolv)

100% the presence of constricted pupils in frozen sober people was confirmed in another work:
"Death from hypothermia" V.P. Desyatov, 1977


Quote
In the corpses of persons who died from cooling while sober, the pupils, according to our observations, turned out to be constricted, while in the case of severe intoxication preceding death, the pupils were dilated in 59%.

In this case, not even all drunks had dilated pupils. Apparently 41% of drunks with narrow pupils were slightly drunk.


But the tourists weren't drunk at all.
First, the medical examiner revived established the absence of alcohol.
Secondly, in the same work by Desyatov, the difference between sober and drunkards is indicated by the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids:


Quote
On non-frozen corpses of persons who died of cold sober, the mucous membrane of the eyelids in all cases was pale pink.

The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny described the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids only in three: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova.

Doroshenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale pink .

Krivonischenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale gray .(in this case, the pale gray color can be caused by the so-called "weathering", because Krivonischenko was lying face up and was almost not covered with snow)

Kolmogorov:
Quote
The mucous membrane of the eyelids is reddish in color.

No blueness.

The reason for the expansion of the pupils could be the wolverine's chemical weapon:
Quote
Sometimes the cause of mydriasis (dilated pupils) can be hidden in acute poisoning of the body and its intoxication. And the development of dilated pupils is largely facilitated by the conditions of a professional activity related to the use of toxic chemicals.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 06:41:47 PM
Action must be taken.

Yes, but not suicide.

If it was seen as a medical issue and they were concerned about what was taking place, it would be logical to seek water and shelter?

Not logical if in winter on the slope of Kholyat Syakhl... or else logic kills...

we don't know if the gas you experienced was the same chemicals as what the hikers experienced.

Contemporary chemical industry is likely to perform as good as wolverines.

you say you were pretending not to feel any harm which would imply you felt harm?

Of course it was very unpleasant, but funny at the same time, like the two Canadians laughing after being sprayed by a skunk.

you were at a riot suffering harm to Impress women, how noble?????

I wrote "young" and "stupid"... )))

Because that's a real turn on I'm sure? Darwinism at its finest.....

Yes, it was Darwinian, and it was fascinating to observe. And I am even sure that some of these young people got married and now have families. Having the same political convictions and meeting on the barricades is much more romantic than using an app on a smartphone. "Daddy, mommy, how did you meet? On the barricades, honey!" will always be nicer than "Through Tinder"...

you do reference, lust, desire, sex , women's thighs etc in most of your ever changing hypothesis.

In the hypothesis of internal strife in group of young people or in the hypothesis of conflict between two groups of young people, knowing the presence of girls in the middle, yes, these parameters have to be included. I think now of an hypothesis not related to conflict and therefore there is no desire, no envy, no jealousy in my picture.

If your eyes are burning and there's muck in your throat and lungs what do you drink or rinse if everything is snow?

Our body has a special ability called "crying", designed to rinse our eyes in such cases.

Greetings
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 07:05:03 PM
Action must be taken.

Yes, but not suicide.

If it was seen as a medical issue and they were concerned about what was taking place, it would be logical to seek water and shelter?

Not logical if in winter on the slope of Kholyat Syakhl... or else logic kills...

we don't know if the gas you experienced was the same chemicals as what the hikers experienced.

Contemporary chemical industry is likely to perform as good as wolverines.

you say you were pretending not to feel any harm which would imply you felt harm?

Of course it was very unpleasant, but funny at the same time, like the two Canadians laughing after being sprayed by a skunk.

you were at a riot suffering harm to Impress women, how noble?????

I wrote "young" and "stupid"... )))

Because that's a real turn on I'm sure? Darwinism at its finest.....

Yes, it was Darwinian, and it was fascinating to observe. And I am even sure that some of these young people got married and now have families. Having the same political convictions and meeting on the barricades is much more romantic than using an app on a smartphone. "Daddy, mommy, how did you meet? On the barricades, honey!" will always be nicer than "Through Tinder"...

you do reference, lust, desire, sex , women's thighs etc in most of your ever changing hypothesis.

In the hypothesis of internal strife in group of young people or in the hypothesis of conflict between two groups of young people, knowing the presence of two girls in the middle, yes, these parameters have to be included. I think now of an hypothesis not related to conflict and therefore there is no desire, no envy, no jealousy in the sketch.

If your eyes are burning and there's muck in your throat and lungs what do you drink or rinse if everything is snow?

Our body has a special ability called "crying", designed to rinse our eyes in such cases.

Greetings

It would be suicide to take no action and stand away from the tent , on a slope doing nothing. They may have feared blindness or breathing issues.

The logic is they could not go back to the tent in fear of making their symptoms worse.

Contemporary chemicals vairy depending on their use. But if a gas grenade ,skunk or Wolverine spray was to happen in a small tent with 9 people it is logical to exit the tent quickly. You would not be prepared for it and laughing might be in short supply.

It may have been funny for you but not for all those involved in your riot. There is laughing but it is a skunk and a controlled environment where people know what's going. Change the scenario to the confines of a tent, miles from safety and unsure if this chemical will do long-term harm.

You write "young" and "stupid" , I know you are not one of these things.

Crying may help, but how long would it take for it to resolve the effects, to eyes, lungs throat? Do they take the risk just sitting away from the tent in the cold till it maybe goes away?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 27, 2022, 04:01:55 AM
Ключевой факт происшествия - расширенные зрачки.
Второй ключевой факт - жёлто-оранжевые пятна на одежде:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52683

Причём известны свойства этих пятен - они нерастворимы в воде и вызывают экзему:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=57656

Интересно, что это за вещество?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52636
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61059
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=73650

Quote
Wolverines can produce a foul smelling yellow fluid from anal scent glands.
https://www.planetdeadly.com/animals/wolverine-facts-or-wolverine-kill-man
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 28, 2022, 03:38:23 PM


                     Reply #55
This is from Igor b's links that he posted. Translated to English ,
..............................................
Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils.
...................................................
Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
...........................................
It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
...............................................


@ Ziljoe : I warmly thank you for your work in translating and summarising Igor B.'s arguments in support of the wolverine theory.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

For my poor mental capacity, 112 web pages and 2232 posts in Russian is already a long time to study, but more:
A number of arguments are in image format and therefore cannot be copied and pasted into an automatic translator.

A number of posts give links to other websites in Russian.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The death of the hickers does not fall within the scope of the cases studied by Rybalkin R.V. :

According to my theories TOK** (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - others),
the death of the 4 considered hikers is not mainly caused by the cold, but by the tremendous blunt object blows which sends them in a deep coma. In this state of deep coma, i.e. near death, the phenomenon of the dilated pupils does not occur because all the cerebral functioning is disturbed (and perhaps may be compared to that of a dead drunk person).

If they had been immediately treated in a hospital, these 4 hickers might have survived without disability, but this is not even sure.

Afterwards of course the bodies freeze (then thaw) but the cold action plays a secondary role in giving real symptoms of apparent cold death.

The violence of the tremendous blunt object blows is not assessable at autopsy because the attackers' blunt objects were wrapped in rag padding carefully sewn onto the birch wood. In other words, brain damage can be significant without any skull fractures.

The habit of rag-wrapped blunt objects originated with some trappers who wanted to sell rare and valuable skins (such as those of wolverines) without the skins being damaged by a bullet hole (and thus losing some of their high value).

The rag stuffing provided by the attackers was not intended to deceive the autopsy. It was to provide a deadly but silent weapon; essential to the success of the attackers' gun-free tactics.


                     Reply #57
..................
The logic is they could not go back to the tent in fear of making their symptoms worse.
.........................
Change the scenario to the confines of a tent, miles from safety and unsure if this chemical will do long-term harm.
.........................

Indeed, the exit from the tent can perfectly well be explained by the entry of a curious wolverine.

This is a solution which is in accordance with what I call the Anatoliy Stepochkin axiom :

They launched a kind of dope inside (they = wolverine)

There is a very large number of chemical devices that can make the atmosphere inside a small tent almost instantly unbreathable.

When I was young, and as stupid and stubborn in error as I am now, I made suffocating jars of SO² according to the reaction :

2 ClO³K + 3 S ---> 3 SO² + 2 ClK

but in the open air and always on the right side of the wind !

At that time one could buy for cheap kilograms of potassium chlorate and sulphur in flower (powdered sulphur) in the big drugstores.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_chlorate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Strange behaviour of this wolverine who usually finds her meat reserves hidden in the snow for several weeks and who does not come back to the tent after a few days to finish her meal when the smell of her toxic spray has been attenuated (since it is imperceptible to humans at the end of February)..

For me the decisive point is that Igor B's wolverine theory can only explain one part of the DPI: the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar.

For the rest, i.e. the death of the nine, no one should evade Ockham's razor which favours theories that include the action of human attackers determined to leave no survivors.

In a nutshell and in the spirit of Vladimir Askinadzi (https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?filter_page=4&rbid=18461), I could assertively say;

- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force, no falls on rocks, no snow collapses can explain the death of these nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions, even while vomiting and weakened by the terrifying spray of a volverine as they had been able to stand and walk several metres on a slippery slope.

Well, again, all these very simply explainable injuries....

Ask me. I do not know everything. But little by little, thanks to the many debates that I can read on this website and others, the "HOW", "WHO" and "WHY" questions are becoming clearer and the vice is tightening around the image of the attackers.

Just look and think calmly about these facts.

https://dyatlovpass.com/death
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461

There are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear.
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and who keep their eyes wide shut.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
To explain the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar, the idea of the wolverine's chemical weapon intervention can be harmoniously incorporated into my TOK** theories according to two fairly similar scenarios (your choice):

Scenario N° 1
A wolverine tamed in the manner of a performing dog has been trained to enter shelters that its(her ?) master designates.
The master (attacker) pointing to the tent: Go on, dear, there's plenty to eat there.

In case of difficulty or defensive reaction in the shelter, the wolverine sprays spontaneously and returns unharmed to its master (who can reward it(her) with a good piece of pork).

The wolverine can be transported from North-2 to the tent, either on human back or using a reindeer, in a comfortable basket.

Moreover, the idea of using trained animals is not original. Here is a military example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/03/article-2517413-19CE2A9300000578-414_634x446.jpg)

Scenario N° 2
Siberian trappers collect glandular fluid from several wolverines (possibly for several years) and then sell it to the attackers
Then it is easy with a large syringe and a hose to build a device to silently and quietly spray a large amount of toxic liquid inside the 5 m³ tent.
The result is not debatable: the surprised hikers immediately go out in an irrational way, suffocating and vomiting.

Then it is likely that the hikers themselves decide to go down to the cedar tree to shelter from the wind and light a fire, which they apparently did


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
But after .... the intervention of human attackers absolutely determined to take the lives of the 9 hikers constitutes the core of my TOK** theories.

All these variants have in common that there was no staging, or even attempted staging, on the Kholat Syakhl slope in early February 1959.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 28, 2022, 07:11:12 PM
Hi Jean Daniel Reid's

Thank you. I do believe many of the theories, hypothesis have valid points.

Some of the theories may overlap or support ideas that others have. I do favour Igor b's wolverine because it is the most logical but  I do not rule out Teddy's or the involvement of outsiders.

Igor b goes into detailed accounts of the physical injuries and position of the bodies , links the findings of the deaths with clinical research , testimonies from people that have encountered  wolverines ( a Wolverine licking their face when they were asleep in a tent). He also supports this with the documents and statements , for example, markings on some of the clothes returned that would not wash off, the reaction of the search dogs at the pass from the helicopter.

Teddy's theory  is also of interest but for a different reason. Teddy looks at it from the documents and written statements and links events with other activities at the time which can not be ruled out and gives a lot to ponder.  It involves staging and a cover up and explains some of the inconsistency from written reports etc.

I also do not rule out , outsiders forcing them out of the tent. There are many versions of who , why and with what tools did they kill.. I often wonder about that lone Mansi hunter that was nearby the day before.

There's nothing to stop us from picking bits from different hypothesis and joining them together to come up with a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the hikers.

I now favour the Wolverine after dismissing the idea for several years . I found Igor's explanation annoyingly solid and complete.

However, I continue to read everyone's hypothesis as new evidence and observations come to light.

Igor's b theory would also work if you took away the Wolverine , changed it to someone throwing in some gas at the tent and then leaving and having no more input. It is that simple.
 
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 20, 2022, 03:53:47 PM

              Reply #60
...................................
 I do believe many of the theories, hypothesis have valid points.
Some of the theories may overlap or support ideas that others have.
......................................................

Igor B.'s theory explains very well the exit of the tent by the visit of a wolverine because he specifies several details.

1) ••• A temperature just below 0° C. For the hikers, this temperature seemed mild,
which explains why the hikers went out underdressed, as they might have thought to return quickly to the tent and stay out only a few minutes.

2) •••  In a small volume the effects of the spray were magnified.
See :
Catabatic Wind-Acute Stress Reaction-Cold Air Drops ---> Acute Stress Reaction
                            Lupos = Günter Wolf had evaluated:
                       Air volume tent = 3,5 m³

(I do not think it is enough to fire a shotgun in the air for the hikers to come out immediately without holding the axes in their hands).

3) •••  The stench dissuades them from returning immediately to the tent and encourages them to resort to another solution: lighting a fire near the cedar tree.



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

4) Together with Per Inge Oestmoen Oestmoen, I believe that the injuries found at the autopsy can only be explained by a hostile human attack.

  Theories Discussion  --->  General Discussion  --->    Refutation of the conclusions of expert Tumanov
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=51

( Reply# =  Coob# )

1/ Radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=59943 
pp=14-Coob#280    (261-280)

2/ Radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=60394 
pp=15-Coob#291    (281-300)   

3/ Forensic expert Tumanov contradicts himself in his article:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91648 
pp=79-Coob#1577  (1561-1580)

4/ Miscellaneous:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1720&p=92884&#entry92884
pp=87-Coob#1727  (1721-1740)
 
5/ On self-harm of hands of the frozen
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1960&p=95223&#entry95223:
pp=99-Coob#1972  (1961-1980)

6/ When the abrasions happened can not be accurately determined:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1980&p=95314&#entry95314
pp=100-Coob#1982  (1981-2000)

7/ When the abrasions happened can not be accurately determined:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1980&p=95361&#entry95361
pp=100-Coob#1985  (1981-2000)

8/ On the preservation of Vishnevsky (aka death) spots:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96097
pp=101-Coob#2004     (2001-2020)

9/ About dark blood in the heart:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96112
pp=101-Coob#2005    (2001-2020)

10/ Again radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=106586
pp=106-Coob#2113    (2101-2120)


I am not competent in Vishnevsky stains and other difficult to interpret forensic clues.
For the moment I have more confidence in the conclusions of Eduard Tumanov, professor and expert in the Russian National University and Pirogov Institute (They were attacked) than in the conclusions of Igor B., who is an anonymous resident of Ekateringburg, (they fell and got injured or crushed).




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

5) Ziljoe, you seem to me to underestimate the possibilities of memory and intelligence of the wolverine, which have much in common with the boreal lynx, certain dogs or even the great apes.

If the (supposed wolverine) did not show up on the bodies of the hikers a few hours or days after its visit to the tent, I can only see 2 possible explanations:

 1) Either the wolverine was killed by a pack of wolves, a large bear that got angry and counter-attacked, a man with a gun... or others.

2) Or it joined the cozy basket of its master trainer who cuddled it and rewarded it for its efficiency.




Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on July 20, 2022, 08:32:23 PM
Hi Jean Daniel Reuss

There is little information on the Wolverine habits to this day but as I understand it....the Wolverine travel around 15 miles a day, a solitary animal out of mating season and has a large hunting habitat. It will hunt various beasts if it sees an opportunity or compete with wolves or bears over kills  but tries to avoid direct confrontation. It will fight a bear ,or wolves  and by what I've seen , seems to do great damage on the physical side of things.

It also has this spray like a skunk,  if I understand correctly, it has two separate types of spray, 1) where it marks it's food and territory 2) a different mixture in its defence spray. It is this 2nd spray that links the event's.

The Wolverine was not necessarily looking to attack the hickers, this must be understood., Rather the smell of food intrigued the Wolverine to the tent. They are reported to have a keen sense of smell and can detect food or small animals below several feet of snow.

The Wolverine would have no interest in the biscuits or pork lion that were in the tent after the spraying of its defence glan.

The hikers are now sprayed with the toxin and the tent with left over food. All the beasts in the area would be put off eating anything left over.

 Hence the search dogs not wanting to get off the helicopter 3 weeks later, they could detect the defence spray.  This is an important  incident when we take in the fact that it was so unusual that it was documented .  Hunting dogs may have been trained or familiar with the smell but these search dogs weren't.

I understand that you believe the injuries were caused by the human hand and I do read what you put forward Jean.

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on November 24, 2022, 02:34:43 AM
These people do not realize that they were lucky to touch the mystery of the death of the Dyatlov group:

Quote
Tent got sprayed by skunk, inside included, decided to cut losses and dumped tent and left, anything I could of done to salvage it?

Dog barked at a skunk the skunk sprayed my tent and dog. This happened at 1am, decided to just pack everything that didn't smell too bad into the car and trash the rest. In retrospect could I have gotten the stink out of the tent?

It was more the smell was so bad just being near it made my gf puke.
https://www.reddit.com/r/camping/comments/2crd8x/tent_got_sprayed_by_skunk_inside_included_decided/

Three hikers had empty stomachs:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91073
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 24, 2022, 05:03:58 AM
Hi Igor B. I have just read your update on slobodin's fracture.

"Returning to the issue of post-mortem cracking of the frontal bone in Slobodin. Namely, that in the place of the crack, which was at
the very bottom, the substance of the brain froze last:"

Sounds logical , do you have any clinical data/evidence that this has happened before or since. I did find a forum in USA that discussed it as a possibility? .
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on November 24, 2022, 06:13:32 AM
Quote
Расположение повреждений зависит от равномерности или неравномерности промерзания головы.
В первом случае возникают симметричные повреждения, во втором - односторонние, в области, противоположной месту максимального воздействия холода (например - на правой половине черепа при положении трупа лежа на правом боку и наоборот).
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=108717

Слободин лежит на левом боку - трещина слева.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 24, 2022, 08:37:33 AM
This link might be of interest.

It has some case studies .

Warning! There are images of bodies that might be distressing to some .

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6474461/#!po=63.8889

It shows the colourisation of skin, face, knees and feet , along with abrasions with hypothermic death. There is mention of a skull fracture. Some of the body positions are similar.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 24, 2022, 04:15:51 PM
"Returning to the issue of post-mortem cracking of the frontal bone in Slobodin. Namely, that in the place of the crack, which was at the very bottom, the substance of the brain froze last:"

The crack was not post-mortem and it was not "the crack" but multiple cracks: Slobodin's skull was literally crushed with multiple fractures.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 24, 2022, 04:35:58 PM
"Returning to the issue of post-mortem cracking of the frontal bone in Slobodin. Namely, that in the place of the crack, which was at the very bottom, the substance of the brain froze last:"

The crack was not post-mortem and it was not "the crack" but multiple cracks: Slobodin's skull was literally crushed with multiple fractures.

How do you know it was not post- mortem Charles?. It says fracture , not fractures.  "Literally crushed "?  , Where are the multiple fractures Charles?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: GlennM on November 24, 2022, 07:51:36 PM
Ziljoe,
Can you provide me a quick sequence of events as you see it starting from the wolverine at the tent to the expiration of the last hiker. I believe there is something interesting in your take on this tragedy.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 24, 2022, 10:15:02 PM
Can do GlennM.
Although , I give all credit to Igor B and his work. I may get some things wrong as I'll be doing this from memory. Some things I suggest may differ from Igor B and I am happy to be corrected but will probably be insignificant to the general sequence.

Igor B suggests they left the cache site earlier, this is due to the two photos of them on skis in the white out. The angle  of light in these photos suggests this.

The poor weather conditions were the factor in deciding to pitch the tent on the slope. ( I am not sure about this because I feel the navigation would be easy. Slope, up/down , hit tree line find campsite in wood.Anyway it's irrelevant. The tent is where it is.)

There was a warm weather front, this is factual because of the raised foot prints.

The time of day of the incident i suggest was either evening or morning. The reason being that food was out along with some sort of porridge/ Coco /ham, this would take time to heat/thaw . I would imagine they would try to eat all at the same time , given the logistics and lack of administration. It's a small space for 9 people to be sheltering , eating, writing , cooking , cleaning feet ,drying clothes etc. Things wood need to be planned. Especially on the slope. In the Forrest they could eat outside by the fire.

Two of the group may have been out to relieve themselves , tent entrance slightly open. Perhaps the Wolverine had entered at that moment and was sniffing about. The others return to the entrance and start to take their foot wear off. ( In my thoughts , it's not about being able to put one boot on in the emergency, rather the opposite, haven taken one off is the exact moment that something happened. Anyway, this type of scenario could have happened in a number of ways.)

1)Wolverine is in the tent and sprays.

2) cut tent open after  inhaling spray. ( Maybe the two of hikers are outside).

3) group keep their distance from tent , eyes, lungs, effected . Maybe try to approach tent but the substance/smell irritates their condition more.

4) discussion on best option is to go to wood. ( Weather Visibility/condtions may be ok at this point)

5) decide to find best wood for warmth is ceder, group not willing to risk return to tent.

6) group head towards the ceder for wood or for water to try and combat the effects of the spray. This is where  a number of events could have played out.
Torch maybe left on slope ,if it was afternoon to evening , as an indicator to return to tent location after they try to wash/warm up etc.

A) they went to ceder to make fire, fire not good enough. Then snow shelter/cave and something went wrong, like snow cave collapsing. Two Yuri's are wet or exhausted from trying to dig out the ravine 4 and the other three try to return to the tent .

Or

B) they went to ravine to find water, then something went wrong . The Yuri's got wet, not badly injured but for arguments sake , just wet up to waste height. Group then go to ceder to make a fire. The den is started whilst the Yuri's try to warm up. The cold front is coming , and a snow cave is found in the ravine , they decide to make it bigger by kicking with feet and it collapses . Dyatlov , Zina, Slobidin can't help. They go back to the tent and the cold does the rest.

I would need to read through Igor b's theory again to be more exact. Much of it is to do with who had frostbite etc. The Yuri's might have paradoxical undressing but it is evident that there was activity at the ceder and the ravine that is consistent with survival. Fire, den, fur branches that could be used to keep their bodies off the cold ground etc. Some of these branches were not used. To me, everything suggests survival against the elements.

I would suspect the three on the slope were the last to die. A desperation to survive by returning to the tent as things were so bad at the ceder/ravine.

Strong supporting evidence of the Wolverine are the dilated pupils.

And the behaviour of the search dog's when arriving at the seen. They had to be forced off the helicopter. I can imagine dogs being a bit reluctant, but not to the extent that someone bothered to say this in a statement. It was that unusual that it was reported. Animal sense's can tell us a lot.

Sorry if it's a bit long GlennM. There's a number of scenarios that could be played out. I'm stuck between the ravine 4 or the 2 Yuri's expiring first because of the confused reporting of clothing from the Yuri's. I can only think the Yuri's were left at the fire to look after themselves until the others retrieved stuff from the tent. but it does look like they were laid in the position they were found.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.


Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 05:14:47 AM
fracture, not fractures

I had forgotten, but I can't find the link to the page with the radiographies of Slobodin's skull: could you share the link?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 05:22:48 AM
fracture, not fractures

I had forgotten, but I can't find the link to the page with the radiographies of Slobodin's skull: could you share the link?

What have you forgotten Charles?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 08:02:39 AM
That there was only one visible crack on the radiography.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 08:33:27 AM
That there was only one visible crack on the radiography.
.

Good, I'm glad you remembered .

If you read the link of case studies on autopsies of hypothermia , you will find reference to cases been found lying on one's back with arms crossed ( dyatlov) . Tunneling ,(Zina and Slobidin) , abrasions, hematoma, hemorrhaging etc. Swelling of ears and nose. Abrasions on top of feet and knuckles. There is one there with a skull fracture but no signs of outward damage.

Because Slobidin was lying on his side and wearing a hat, it is proposed that as the brain and fluids started to freeze, it is this that caused the crack.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 08:55:25 AM
Oh yes, but can you give the link to the page with radiographies, I lost it and can't retrieve it!
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 10:06:31 AM
If you had a link for a link for them , they will be where you left them. If you have different data, it would be good to see.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 10:21:24 AM
For them???
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 10:35:26 AM
What "them"???
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 11:52:00 AM
If you had a link for the x-rays that you refer too, they will be where you left them. If you have different data, it would be good to see.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 01:20:31 PM
I refer to your X-rays, the ones you mentioned.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 01:36:18 PM
I refer to your X-rays, the ones you mentioned.

Sorry Charles, cut to the chase. I'm a bit lost , could you say what you mean? What x-rays? You mentioned x-rays that you had a link to but now can't find?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 02:08:00 PM
for the x-rays

Didn't you refer to the x-rays?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 02:12:36 PM
I am completely lost: the x-rays I've seen, it was not the x-rays of Slobodin you were talking about?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 02:16:47 PM
Charles,are you not getting enough attention at home?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 02:35:58 PM
So you are into fairytales about the freeze causing Slobodin's skull fracture, but you don't have the courage to admit that you can't even refer to a radiography of his skull because it does not not exist and because the soviet forensic didn't bother to make x-rays of the hikers... they concluded to "unknown compelling force" and it was alright for them, they were not so motivated to find the truth, no need to do x-rays.

lol4

They didn't do x-rays in 1959, of any of the hikers: why are you so afraid to say it?



Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 03:05:15 PM
So you are into fairytales about the freeze causing Slobodin's skull fracture, but you don't have the courage to admit that you can't even refer to a radiography of his skull because it does not not exist and because the soviet forensic didn't bother to make x-rays of the hikers... they concluded to "unknown compelling force" and it was alright for them, they were not so motivated to find the truth, no need to do x-rays...

lol4

They didn't do x-rays in 1959, of any of the hikers: why are you so afraid to say it?





Charles, we can only work with the information we have got. The clinical data to this day on death by hypothermia is varied and incomplete. However there are notable trends. We only have the autopsy reports to work with. Given the findings by evidence based practice or studies that are free on the internet, there are parallels to the reported injuries on the dyatlov hikers.

If they weren't trying to find the truth and wanted to cover up things, why would they even bother to report a fracture? Why not just say there was no fracture? You stated it slobodin's skull was smashed, I've not seen, read or heard anyone say that other than you.

There is no reports of anything other than a fracture. I don't know what the skills were of the investigators at the time, I don't know what acces to radiography they had at the time 1059 , let alone the resources of the area. They say unknown force and it is compelling. There is a chance that the investigation people were telling the truth. They just didn't know, there wasn't enough evidence to suggest human play. What would x-rays bring to the story?

They did an autopsy, cut their insides out and inspected their skulls, stomach contents , etc. What more do you want?

I will ask the moderator to delete some of these previous posts. It will be a bore for other people reading the thread. What a waste of time..... Muppet
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 03:28:42 PM
I don't know what acces to radiography they had at the time

They had all access needed.

There is a chance that the investigation people were telling the truth.

When prosecutor Ivanov who attended all autopsies wrote in the Resolution to close the case: "considering the absence of external injuries", was he telling the truth?

They just didn't know, there wasn't enough evidence to suggest human play. What would x-rays bring to the story? They did an autopsy, cut their insides out and inspected their skulls, stomach contents , etc. What more do you want?

A prosecutor opened a criminal case, forensic "experts" and investigators worked, policemen interrogated witnesses, a team of prosecutors closed the criminal case, and they concluded to "unknown compelling force" without bothering to ask for x-rays of the the bodies? The Soviets had the nuclear bomb, they just had sent the first satellite in orbite around the planet, they had radiography facilities everywhere in their hospitals (and even in their ugly gulags): they liked the "unknown" force, they wanted the "unknown".

I will ask the moderator to delete some of these previous posts. It will be a bore for other people reading the thread. What a waste of time.....

Why delete? It's very uplifting, very educational. Not at all a waste of time, in the contrary, I like it: you preferred to leave me in error rather than threaten your relativistic daydream... enlightenment!  clap1

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 25, 2022, 03:43:47 PM
Charles, why is everything you don't like a daydream or fantasy. Should they exray a bone that is already broken? You may think it's uplifting , but you are offering nothing but paranoia and speculation. There's a waiting list for x-rays in the UK today, forget 1959 Russia . If they were covering anything up, why let the information come out that they did. They could of covered up the whole thing from the start if they wanted to, if the were that powerful and clever.  They probably all wanted to get on with their own lives instead of some protracted investigation that they couldn't prove otherwise.

There had been several other tourist trips that had ended in tragedy . Good luck on finding your link to the x-rays you lost.

I also hope you are ok, I mean that genuinely.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 25, 2022, 03:49:02 PM
What would x-rays bring to the story?

This sentence is so telling, it's almost beautiful.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: GlennM on November 25, 2022, 05:52:01 PM
Ziljoe, thanks for the synopsis. I regret it digressed into fly swatting.

 I understand the search dogs were reluctant to land.That could very well be evidence.  Wouldn't the wolverine musk be noted by the rescuers? Do you have an idea how long before it dissipates?

The DP nine  go to the woods. They have two choices, both important. One choice is to get out of the wind.  The other choice is to get warm. It seems to me that getting warm would come in second. Why? Because if there is no windbreak, the warmth of the fire will not last. Therefore, I would guess the hikers would find a windbreak, such as the ravine first, and build a warming fire there. They did not. To me this is counterintuitive. I would go as far as to propose that they could carry fire to the ravine if they decided to warm up first. The cedar appears to be a poor place to maintain a fire, especially compared to a sheltered ravine.

It appears that the official interpretation of events and the chronology is closely linked to the sequence of the discovery of the bodies. Thus they went to the tree first and at the tree, the fire came first. Next there was a schism among the survivors with some going back to the tent and others digging in at the ravine. Of course, neither group prevailed. I would think they all would have gone to the ravine, or they all would have returned, buddy style back to the tent. Going to the ravine is the better choice. Why? They just left the tent and going back immediately would be idiotic.

If indeed they all went to the ravine, it is strange that all did not perish there. What affected the four who died should have impacted them all. It did not.  Those who would have survived the ravine knew exactly what direction to go to regain the tent, but their strength failed them. For me, this implies that their physical reserves of energy were depleted. I do not think their last meal was,sufficient after hiking all day, excavating a level place their tent and so on.

In summary, I still believe the hikers made camp on 1079 and were driven to the woods below. I do not think they were driven out by other people. There is no good reason that I've read. Further, the location and disposition of the bodies did not produce any claims by the finders that pointed to murder, that I am aware of. Finally, you don't leave corpses around unless it is symbolic. There was nothing symbolic, just tragic. If there is any record that points to wolverine spray as opposed to a slab slip, I'll hold to the crush of snow. It is a shame the tent was finally destroyed, but that too is telling. Would you keep a tent that was sprayed by a skunk locked up in the basement of a building form even a day? A wolverine? Surely it would have reeked to high heaven!
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on November 25, 2022, 09:06:21 PM
Случаев когда скунс брызгал внутри палатки в США и Канаде должно быть немало.
Если кто-нибудь найдёт ещё описания подобных случаев разместите здесь ссылку пожалуйста.

Quote
"I was hiking the Appalachian trail in Georgia and a freezing snow storm came up, so I put up my tent, got in and around 1 o'clock in the morning, a skunk came up to get warm," the man wrote.

"He tried to get in my backpack, then he tried to drag it away after I kept shooing him off. He bit me later and I just got my last rabies shot today!"
https://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2017/04/07/Man-films-confrontation-with-tent-invading-skunk-in-Georgia/6171491591452/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vJ-WfLp5-A

Если бы скунс не укусил а брызнул, то что случилось с дятловцами повторилось бы в точности.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 26, 2022, 01:50:11 AM
The following are topics that Igor B addressed. They are in the link at the bottom of his name. It is in Russian but if you put on auto translation in Google it should just click to your chosen language. It would take forever to copy and paste. But I'm happy to try if any of the questions below spark interest. He answers them all....







Answers to all questions related to the death of the Dyatlov group. By Igor B.




Key facts of the incident:

1.) Dilated pupils in those who are frozen sober:


2.) Leaving the tent with a slow and careful step:


3.) Getting rid of jackets already taken out of the tent:


4.) Building a fire in a very windy place:


5.) Fright of service dogs when landing at the pass:


6.) Yellow-orange stains on clothes:



Typical misconceptions about the wolverine and its chemical weapons:

One wolverine kicked out of the tent nine strong and brave tourists? Seriously?
Yes. Even if it were not a wolverine, but a small skunk, the result would be the same.
Against chemical weapons there is no means of protection other than a gas mask.

Wolverines are not found on the Dyatlov Pass. They have nothing to do there.?


Wolverine will never climb into a tent with people. And if she climbed in, she would have bitten and scratched everyone.?


Wolverine would leave traces at the tent.?


Wolverine would return and ate food in the tent.?


Wolverine's chemical weapons are nonsense. You can endure or ventilate.?


Wolverine's chemical weapons are no nonsense. Doesn't fade for a long time. The searchers would smell it.?


If the tourists had abandoned the tent because of the stench and tearing, they would have taken clothes.?


Search engines, investigators and experts would have seen the yellow stains from the wolverine's chemical weapons on the tourists' clothes.?


Service dogs are not afraid of anyone, including wolverines.?

The smell of wolverine would have long been weathered. Dogs wouldn't feel it.?


How long does the smell of a skunk (wolverine) last?


Did the Dyatlovites have a chance to escape?
Yes, there was one way.




Answers to all questions related to the death of the Dyatlov group.
Part 2.

Refutation of the avalanche version based on the photo:


Refutation of versions related to the beating or murder of Dyatlovites :


The myth about the closure of the area of ​​the incident:


Why the case was classified and closed.
Due to the signs of intoxication of unknown origin discovered by the examinations, as indicated by the dilation of the pupils of those who are frozen sober:


The authorities considered that it will not be possible to prove the non-involvement of the state in the intoxication of tourists and the results of the examinations were hidden.


About brown skin color :


The reason for stopping the Dyatlov group on the slope was the complete lack of visibility:


How the flashlight found on the tent ended up in the middle of the snow mass:



Animals are afraid of the smell of wolverine.


Getting rid of jackets already taken out of the tent:


Why, having come to the forest, the Dyatlovites made a fire in a windy place, and dug snow shelters in places protected from the wind and even climbed into a snow cave?


The reason for the rapid hypothermia of the Dyatlovites was damp clothing and wind:


Fractures of the ribs from compression:


The shape of the ceiling could be the reason for the collapse of the snow cave:
.

Slobodin's head injury - post-mortem cracking of the skull bones at the seams:


Kolmogorova was asleep at the time of death:


How the time of the incident was determined:

 The incident happened while eating:


_ wolverines:


On the impact on humans and the timing of the weathering of the smell of a skunk (wolverine):


All evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the wolverine's "chemical weapon":
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 26, 2022, 01:55:24 AM
Thank you GlennM.

I believe the smell would have disappeared after 4 weeks , at least to the level that humans cant detect.. Dogs have a higher sensitivity for smells, it's their skill set. They were most likely search dog's as opposed to hunting dogs. They would not be used to the musk, obviously this musk evolved to be a defence weapon for the skunk family.

I totally agree about getting out of the wind, although there may have been no wind at that moment in time. The location of the fire sounds exposed given how little snow was covering the ground at the ceder .  As you suggest , they may have gone to the ravine first, to build the den. Some make the den and others start to gather the flooring material. The ceder wood is gathered from the higher branches as this is the only useful wood to burn.

It would seem that something happened  at the ravine. It is here that we have the injuries of the fractured ribs and these fractured ribs are what seem to confuse all of us. It is how we explain these rib breaks that defines our interpretation of events.

A) the ribs we're broken by human hand.

B) a tree fell and broke the ribs.

C) a snow collapse broke the ribs.

Depending on which one we choose, it changes our perspective on how we perceive all the other evidence. Hence our squabbles.

For me, the most logical of those 3 options is a snow collapse at the ravine. From there I work backwards and like you GlennM, I think their reserves were depleted. I can imagine the snow collapse and them burning more energy to try and dig out their friends but it would be impossible. There ,a sense of darkness would overcome the other 5 on how to survive or retrieve equipment to dig out the ravine 4.

The reason for leaving the tent could of been a number of things, snow slip , wind etc but I think they would have taken more equipment, grab a blanket , knife, axe etc.

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 26, 2022, 09:41:56 AM
What would x-rays bring to the story?

This sentence is so telling, it's almost beautiful.

The point here is a general issue, that supporters of "accidental" or "natural" theories also claim their positions are more reasonable, more rational... but their claim is absolutely not legit. These theories are not less speculative than others, they lack of realism, they are not better grounded, and far from better grounded. This arrogance is particularly annoying. You can invent any legendary snow cave, any skunk mermaid, any uphill avalanche, no problem, but please avoid to write your explanations as if you were the rationalists and if the case was not rotten to the core. You pretend to be rationalists? Then behave like rationalists. Follow René Descartes:  "il est de la prudence de ne se fier jamais entièrement à ceux qui nous ont une fois trompés" (Meditationes de Prima Philosophia)... "it is prudent never to trust entirely those who have once deceived us"... Forensic expert Churkina wrote a disgraceful report and drew a ridiculously false sketch of the tent, prosecutor Tempalov asked the families of the victims what was their relation to "the accused", prosecutor Ivanov dared to write "considering the absence of external injuries" in his Resolution to close the case, forensic physicist Vozrozhdenny was lazy to ask for x-rays, Urakov gave the prosecutors an "express order" to close the case and to tell the parents "it was an accident"... You speculate like the rest of us and pretend to be on the rationalist side, but you don't acknowledge that your premises are rotten. It is here a general issue. The first task of a rationalist would be to deal with the "express order" given by higher authorities to close the case and to tell the families "it was an accident" and with the lie of the prosecutor who wrote "given the absence of external injuries", with Churkina's misleading sketch and doctored photo, and so on. First you deal with these problems and after, if you still feel the need, you speculate about the freeze causing fractures... So, was Dr Vozrozhdenny lazy to ask for x-rays, or was he forbidden by Ivanov or someone else to have the bodies x-rayed? Was there a reluctance to have the bodies x-rayed? The same kind of reluctance which made the Soviet authorities attempt not to bring the bodies to Sverdlovsk and burry them in Ivdel? Are these questions not rationalistic? Our "scientist" friend who likes infrasound and claims that everything he says "is based on 100% reality"... he does not have any measurement of infrasound to show us. You claim to be rationalists? Show us clean measurements, clean radiographies, clean photos, clean testimonies, any clean and reliable material... nothing doctored nor tampered, and if you can't, then stop pretending that you are the rationalists. You're not, you imagine and speculate just like everybody else.  grin1



P.S.: And yes, indeed, if it's only about "story" telling, better not to have any x-rays of the hikers.

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on November 26, 2022, 11:44:08 AM
В России при вскрытиях трупов рентген не используется. Использование рентгена ещё только обсуждается в качестве альтернативы обычному вскрытию:
Quote
На сегодняшний день в качестве методик проведения альтернативных форм патологоанатомических вскрытий называют как неинвазивное в целом (например, с помощью рентгена, магнитно-резонансной или компьютерной томографии), так и малоинвазивное (например, взятие биопсии) вскрытие.

Проведение таких форм вскрытия всецело соответствует принципу достойного отношения к телу и сохранения его анатомической формы, установленному п. 8 ст. 67 Федерального закона № 323-ФЗ. На сегодняшний день назрела необходимость закрепления альтернативных форм патологоанатомических вскрытий, которые позволят достоверно устанавливать патологоанатомический диагноз в случае отказа от рутинного исследования (например, по религиозным мотивам)
https://neonatology-nmo.ru/ru/jarticles_neonat/540.html?SSr=32013465a711ffffffff27c__07e50b0b0b2039-2b5a

А теперь вернитесь в 1959 год.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 26, 2022, 02:41:30 PM
В России при вскрытиях трупов рентген не используется. Использование рентгена ещё только обсуждается в качестве альтернативы обычному вскрытию:
Quote
На сегодняшний день в качестве методик проведения альтернативных форм патологоанатомических вскрытий называют как неинвазивное в целом (например, с помощью рентгена, магнитно-резонансной или компьютерной томографии), так и малоинвазивное (например, взятие биопсии) вскрытие.

Проведение таких форм вскрытия всецело соответствует принципу достойного отношения к телу и сохранения его анатомической формы, установленному п. 8 ст. 67 Федерального закона № 323-ФЗ. На сегодняшний день назрела необходимость закрепления альтернативных форм патологоанатомических вскрытий, которые позволят достоверно устанавливать патологоанатомический диагноз в случае отказа от рутинного исследования (например, по религиозным мотивам)
https://neonatology-nmo.ru/ru/jarticles_neonat/540.html?SSr=32013465a711ffffffff27c__07e50b0b0b2039-2b5a

А теперь вернитесь в 1959 год.

Translation of the above.

In Russia, X-rays are not used during autopsies of corpses. The use of x-rays is still being discussed as an alternative to conventional autopsy:

Quote:
To date, both non-invasive in general (for example, using X-ray, magnetic resonance or computed tomography) and minimally invasive (for example, taking a biopsy) autopsy are called as alternative forms of pathoanatomical autopsies

Carrying out such forms of autopsy is fully consistent with the principle of a decent attitude towards the body and the preservation of its anatomical shape, established by paragraph 8 of Art. 67 of Federal Law No. 323-FZ. Today, there is a need to consolidate alternative forms of pathoanatomical autopsies, which will make it possible to reliably establish a pathoanatomical diagnosis in case of refusal from routine examination (for example, for religious reasons)

Now go back to 1959.



Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 26, 2022, 03:28:07 PM
What would x-rays bring to the story?

This sentence is so telling, it's almost beautiful.

The point here is a general issue, that supporters of "accidental" or "natural" theories also claim their positions are more reasonable, more rational... but their claim is absolutely not legit. These theories are not less speculative than others, they lack of realism, they are not better grounded, and far from better grounded. This arrogance is particularly annoying. You can invent any legendary snow cave, any skunk mermaid, any uphill avalanche, no problem, but please avoid to write your explanations as if you were the rationalists and if the case was not rotten to the core. You pretend to be rationalists? Then behave like rationalists. Follow René Descartes:  "il est de la prudence de ne se fier jamais entièrement à ceux qui nous ont une fois trompés" (Meditationes de Prima Philosophia)... "it is prudent never to trust entirely those who have once deceived us"... Forensic expert Churkina wrote a disgraceful report and drew a ridiculous sketch of the tent, prosecutor Tempalov asked the families of the victims what was their relation to "the accused", prosecutor Ivanov dared to write "considering the absence of external injuries" in his Resolution to close the case, forensic physicist Vozrozhdenny was lazy to ask for x-rays, Urakov gave the prosecutors an "express order" to close the case and to tell the parents "it was an accident"... You speculate like the rest of us and pretend to be on the rationalist side, but you don't acknowledge that your premises are rotten. It is here a general issue. The first task of a rationalist would be to deal with the "express order" given by higher authorities to close the case and tell the families "it was an accident" and with the lie of prosecutor who wrote "given the absence of external injuries", and so on. First you deal with these problems and after, if you still feel the need, you speculate about the freeze causing fractures... So, was Dr Vozrozhdenny lazy to ask for x-rays, or was he forbidden by Ivanov or someone else to have the bodies x-rayed? Was there a reluctance to have the bodies x-rayed? The same kind of reluctance which made the Soviet authorities to try not to bring to bodies to Sverdlovsk but keep them and burry them in Ivdel? Are these questions not rationalistic? Our "scientist" friend who likes infrasound and claims that everything he says "is based on 100% reality"... he does not have any measurement of infrasound to show us. You claim to be rationalists? Show us clean measurements, clean radiographies, clean photos, any clean and reliable material... and if you can't, then stop pretending that you are the rationalists. You're not, you imagine and speculate just like everybody else.  grin1



P.S.: And yes, indeed, if it's only about "story" telling, better not to have any x-rays of the hikers.



Where do I start... nea1

Charles ,When I say "what would x-rays bring to the story" means it would make no difference to you. Your mind is made up. You have convinced yourself what happened, it was homicide.

If they had done x-ray's and found more fractures you would add them to your illustration of fractures and say murder, if they found no more fractures you would still say murder . If they exhumed the bodies and did x-rays today and found no more fractures you would still say they are lying. You said slobodin's skull was smashed.

I have read a lot of everyone's theories, hypothesis, ideas. It is complicated and difficult to understand what happened. I remain open to all possibilities and try to look at it from as many angles as I can.

So for arguments sake, I've tried to look at from the perspective of those in charge of the investigation . What if it's all true. No cover up. They started the search , found the tent, then the bodies. They did the autopsies , recorded what they found. Fractures, abrasions, dylated pupils , bruises , small cuts.

They interviewed the Mansi, so looked at them possibly being involved. That was a dead end.

They could have framed anybody if they wanted to end the case. There is a possibility they just didn't know or know what to look for. We have nothing else.

All we can do is speculate and put forward ideas. It just so happens I like what Igor B is saying. It is not the Wolverine that is important with what Igor B puts forward but the events afterwards. Just like the the possibility of slobodin's skull fracture by freezing , it gives an explanation, all be it, one you don't like.



Please try not to destroy this thread with your combative nature. You have your own post,have your rants on there.



Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on November 26, 2022, 04:10:32 PM
In Russia, X-rays are not used during autopsies of corpses.

What a joke! When prosecutors, investigators and forensics have 9 dead bodies at the morgue and prefer the humiliation of concluding to "unknown compelling force" rather than to use X-rays they had at their disposal, it's a major failure. It's completely abnormal, in Russia like in any country. On Mar. 15, they suddenly raised military unit 6602 at night in alarm and sent them by helicopter to search for documents and diaries in the snow at Kholyat Syakhl... But using x-rays for the autopsies of the 9 victims? Oh no! In Russia, they never change their daily routine, ever!

Anyway an "express order" was given to tell the families "it was an accident", prosecutor Ivanov lied in a legal document when he issued the Resolution to close the case "considering the absence of external injuries", forensic Churkina botched and doctored her photo of the tent and concealed informations with her ridiculously misleading drawing. Was it regular procedure? They violated any regulations when it was convenient to them, but they didn't want to step out of the habit not to use x-rays for autopsies? It's laughable.

Because it was not a case about a peasant who fell asleep in a snowy ditch behind a barn when being zapoi... or was it? Why do you try to say that in Russia X-rays are not used during autopsies? Why do you do that? As if the list of all the abnormal actions of the investigators was not long enough? In Russia, is it usual that the prosecutor of a case is interrogated as a witness? The cause of the death in a criminal case is given by order of the hierarchy? A prosecutor who attended all autopsies and witnessed the forensic expert listing more than 80 external injuries during "external examination" closes the case "considering the absence of external injuries"? Is it Russian daily routine?

P.S.: How do you say in Russian: "a legal document whose content has been deliberately made false", "a false writing with an intent to defraud"? In French, the legal word is "un faux en écriture publique", I am curious of the Russian word. Because the "Resolution to close the case" issued by Ivanov is such a document. Are you going to say that in Russia, prosecutors generally do not issue true documents, but only false ones? I hope you won't... dear Igor.  wink1





Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: GlennM on November 26, 2022, 05:39:46 PM
Ziljoe, how can any of us prevail against the rapier wit of the "expert"? Now, back to the matter of the disaster.

At that time,   I imagine some imaginary conspirators thinking, " Now, what are we going to do with this tent? I know, let's set it up way,,way over there on the hill. That is going to fool everyone!" I think not! The tent got there because the hikers put it there. Or perhaps the bad boys trekked around and found the labaz and said " Hey,this is here, so let's put the tent up over there"." Now, who is going to carry it up from a mile away?"" Who is bringing the pots and pans up? " Lets flip for it." None of this scenario works for me. If you know the tent is going to be found, you are going to make the scene as " vanilla" as possible. The fewer questions about the tent,the better.  There are too many questions.

If a tree fell on the hikers, then why in the world would you find three freezing to death going up hill towards the tent at elevation 880? I recall that ice formed under Rustem. That meant he was warm when he fell. That means he was alive, not a planted corpse.

Too, if two of the DP9 hikers were supposedly relieving themselves outside, it would be deucedly hard for troublemakers to sneak up unobserved. I think it would also be hard for a critter to get past them, but timing is everything, yes?

A slab slip seems the simplest event to compel people to leave their shelter. Yet, it seems unreasonable for sane people to walk half dressed the better part of a mile. It also seems odd that if they did leave the tent half dressed, that those who were better dressed would not share or otherwise assist.. If indeed the tent collapsed on the hikers and they cut their way out, they may have underestimated the distance to the woods for a fire. There was a flashlight mentioned, so it surely happened at night, a dark and stormy night.

 If a wolverine or other creature invaded the tent, that would be completely out of character for an animal (except for a bear). Bears hibernate.I would immediately fear rabies if a random wild animal attacked the shelter. I know that I would cut my way out of any tent if I thought a rabid critter was in my space. That is reasonable. 

It would have been so simple if the rescuers detected the odor of an animal. As it was, they snagged the vodka and probably snacked on some of the unspoiled stores. My point being, it, wasn't like they were put off by the smell.


Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 27, 2022, 02:30:44 AM
Hi Glenn

I too have numerous problems with outsiders, Wolverine , snow slip, staging.

I am happy we can debate the details , pros and cons and hopefully fine tune our observations.

The imbalance of clothing amoungst the group ,along with odd socks adds to the confusion with any of the theories. If it were outsiders I would have suspected them to be told to take off all their boots. Likewise I think the camera films would have been destroyed, there's no way that outsiders would know or take the risk with what was on the film.

I also struggle to understand why they would separate ,Even the three that look like they are returning to the tent. I would have thought they would of stuck together?

It is reported that Rustem Slobidin had ice under him and I agree with your thoughts. I believe this fact led Igor B to his findings on what possibly caused the skull fracture. As Slobidin tunnelled in to the snow, we can see his hat is positioned back from the forehead and that his neck is exposed . As he cooled the fluids in the skull would freeze , possibly at the neck first thus the expansion of in the skull. His hat would act as insulation. I'm no expert and Igor B goes into more detail.

As for the critter getting in to the tent, I don't think it's an issue. As testimonies from his posts in Russia and skunks in the USA , they get in. They may have all been in the tent at the time , I was just trying to think why they would have footwear on especially only 1 boot?

To me the torch could of been in a pocket and doesn't necessarily mean it was night. Odd that it was where it was.I'm just trying to juggle my thinking. If it was daylight , how might this change our perspective on the event's?.

I struggle with the suggestion of the cache been buried at the place of the tent on the slope. I just don't think that's practical. It would be a struggle to find on the return journey and they would have to dig it up in any number of weather conditions, empty there back packs and rearrange the contents in the possibility of bad weather. If they could locate it?

Wolverine's seem happy to wander into tents. Good point about rabies , never thought of that!

And yes the smell. It would have dissipated by then, I assume. Igor goes into more detail and evidence through science etc.

As for the vodka, I've a feeling that the searcher that took it got a telling off for it.
If I remember correctly ,he says they had to return what the took from the tent and then says they weren't told what they should do if they found the tent. This idea adds a bit of normality to the whole thing. No one was being controlled, the people in charge didn't know the location of the tent or its contents. It was just search for the tourists.

Maybe we should all chip in and send one of our brave forum members to the Urals with a canvas tent and put a Wolverine in? See what happens?



Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: GlennM on November 27, 2022, 12:37:43 PM
Or at least a guy in a wolverine suit. I know someone on the forum who likes to bare his teeth from time to time. You know him too. If the suit fits, wear it!  We all know that water expands when frozen. I wonder if skull fractures of this sort are a diagnostic indicator in forensics. Of course, if it is, there are a whole slew of other bodies and injuries that need explanation. I think those who favor conspiracies are particularly reinforced by those findings. If one accepts the conspiracy, then all the injuries are checked off the list.

I thought that if the goal of the DP9 was to loop Otorten in a day, they would be better off camping on 1079 at 880ft.as opposed to trekking through the forest for sake of efficiency,if nothing else. It is clear that the elevation advantage and obstruction of the forested land's disadvantage both factor in if the hikers elected to make camp elsewhere. Given the group's record of hitching rides and otherwise keeping exertion to a minimum, I believe that Igor envisioned the return loop from Otorten and planned the approach accordingly.

There is no indication of rivalry between hiking groups in the area, so misbehavior of a malicious sort may be ruled out. The dearth of additional footprints appears to rule out any poorly executed practical joke or prank by others. No, it all points to something circumstantial, a " compelling force".  Early on in my participation, I felt that if the military were doing training aerial exercises, that might be the cause. There is no evidence of that, nor of an aborted rocket crash. At any rate, those are transient things and insufficient for a sane group to do what they did. I toyed with the idea that leaving the tent for the woods was a challenge or a qualifier. Teddy thinks not. Nothing in grade certification calls for what they did.

Zoloft was about to write something. Would you think it would have been personal or situational?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 27, 2022, 01:14:45 PM
I don't know if you looked before GlennM. There's a case study here , number six that mentions a skull fracture.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6474461/#!po=63.8889

I thought that it might have been foul play early into my introduction to DPI but as I read other accounts it doesn't seem to me that outsiders were involved. It can't be filled out but I would expect the injuries to be more obvious if it were other people.

I'm not sure how accurate the report of Zolotaryov having a en and paper in his hand was?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on November 27, 2022, 01:41:15 PM
Also, I think it was only six miles Otorten, I had the same thought, from that elevation , without all the equipment they could have gone there and back to the tent quickly, weather permitting.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: GlennM on November 27, 2022, 09:38:00 PM
Ziljoe, I looked at the forensic link and it was instructive, not only for the skull fracture, but for the reminder that a person  of sound body and mind can succumb to elemental conditions.  We are only capable of enduring so much.

I think the DP9 had the plan to lay their cache and take to the high ground as a labor saving strategy. I think that they would not plow through deep, soft snow on the exposed slope versus at the accumulation at the forest below. They would have the advantage of line of sight at a higher elevation. If the circuit was 6 miles, they could round trip it and return to their tent already set up.

When they abandoned their tent, they could have made the dash to their labaz. I think they went down slope instead to keep the wind at their backs. They did not ski down because the foundation for the tent was already laid. Too, if they went to their cache, that would have been tantamount to calling off the hike because of time, distance and the using of their reserves.