Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: GlennM on January 09, 2022, 10:15:45 PM

Title: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 09, 2022, 10:15:45 PM
After reading 1079 I was confused. How can a fallen tree crush hikers when they were camped on a barren slope? Why didn't the tree damage the tent or its contents? Instead, I think all of them were frightened by a ground tremor relating to cracking ice. They performed a textbook evacuation of the tent and scattered in the snow. They regrouped and decended the slope underestimating the distance in the night They did not immediately return after scattering because the tent was ruined by cutting and they would be foolish to return a mile uphill to find their tent covered and then trek another mile again down to the forest. This would be a total of 3 trips at night in sub zero weather. They could not dismiss the source of their fright.Why go back and get your stuff only to get trapped assuming the tent could be found. A needle in a haystack? After reaching the cedar,three members had a change of heart willing to take the risk with Igor feeling most responsible, others feeling loyal. The case will be unsolved because shaking ground, cracking ice slabs or even katabatic winds are transient phenomena.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 10, 2022, 01:00:25 AM
In the book it says that the tent was not where it was found. There was no reason to be there and it couldn't been there. This is what the ridge looks like at this time of the year. Would you pitch a tent in this conditions? Also the tent allegedly withstood the winds for a month propped only on ski poles. The tent was out of their planned route.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eiw-NbE7PBE

P.S. I am changing the subject of this topic from Fallen tree? to Ground tremor, because this is really not about the fallen tree. You want to introduce your new theory, own the subject.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 10, 2022, 07:02:41 AM
In the book it says that the tent was not where it was found. There was no reason to be there and it couldn't been there. This is what the ridge looks like at this time of the year. Would you pitch a tent in this conditions?
Именно из-за погодных условий палатка и оказалась там, где её нашли.

Дятловцы шли по компасу прямо на Отортен:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=65394

Остановила их низовая метель, которую видно на последних фотографиях:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61376

Местоположение кедра подтверждает местоположение палатки, т.к. кедр находится от палатки на кратчайшей прямой, перпендикулярной линии леса:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=101106

Дятловцы видели линию леса в момент происшествия:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=102486

Инсценировка с установкой палатки исключена:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110212
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 10, 2022, 07:10:11 AM
To Игор Б. : There is no evidence that this is their last photo, hell, you can't even prove that it's from the same trek.

Кто проявлял пленки?
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?msg=348343

Ну и гениальный s777, который еще 5 лет назад задает ключевые вопросы, на мой взгляд. Цитирование:


    Я попытался собрать вместе всю информацию, касающуюся происхождения т.н. "последних фото Дятловцев" (в смысле - установка палатки, а точнее - копание ямы в снегу якобы Дятловцами якобы для установки палатки на склоне. Пишу именно так без всякой задней мысли, имхо на сегодняшний момент 100% доказательства того, что на фото именно Дятловцы именно 1.02 копают яму под установку палатки, никто не предоставил). Так вот - информации крайне мало. Если я что-то упустил или неправильно сформулировал - прошу меня извинить и добавить/исправить:

    1. Заявление Борзенкова о том, что таких фотографий в УД нет

    2. Заявление Коськина о том, что эти фотографии в УД видел Юдин

    3. Заявление Буянова о том, что впервые эту фотографию он увидел в книге УПИ (УГТУ-УПИ: Люди. Годы. Увлечения. Том I. Человек, спорт, природа./ П.И.Бартоломей, В.Ф.Богомолов, В.Н.Давыдов, Е.Г.Зиновьев (*автор-редактор интересующей нас главы 1.3: Февраль 1959 года. Дятловцы), В.Г.Карелин, В.И.Ковалев, А.В.Лебедихин, А.А.Пузанов, Б.Н.Сергеев, Р.И.Силин, С.Я.Харин, М.М.Юрганов, В.Г.Якименко. Екатеринбург: УГТУ, 1999. 324 с: ил. ISBN 5-230-06601-6; В сборе материалов и проведении интервью участвовали В.И.Гроховский, А.Ю.Яговкин, А.П.Мурзин, Г.А.Птицын, А.А.Михайлов, А.Е.Пиратинский, Н.А.Рундквист, В.И.Кочуров, Л.В.Шарапова. Фотоматериалы: В.И.Гроховский, А.П.Мурзин, Г.А.Птицын, В.И.Холостых, В.Н.Давыдов, И.Б.Ткаченко, Б.А.Черепков, А.А.Борзунов)

    4. Заявление Буянова о том, что со слов Брусницына именно Брусницын напечатал эту фотографию

    Информация об отсутствии этих фотографий в УД подтверждена Буяновым. А вот мнение Коськина лично у меня вызывает вопросы, прежде всего потому, что приведенная Юдиным опись 2-го тома содержит заверительную запись от 1996г, совпадающую с записью, опубликованной Буяновым, т.е он видел те же материалы, что и Буянов. По поводу того, что и с каких пленок мог печатать Брусницын форумчане уже высказывались. В книге УПИ действительно приведена известная фотография с подписью: "До трагедии оставались часы. Последний кадр И.Дятлова. Вечер 1 февраля 1959г", но среди многочисленных фамилий людей, предоставивших материалы и фотографии, фамилии Брусницына нет. Хотя, имхо, ноги растут от кого-то из предоставивших фотоматериалы. И, насколько я понимаю, никто к перечисленным товарищам по поводу происхождения фотографии не обращался?
    Кстати, имеется информация, что в марте 1959 какие-то фотографии распечатывали в ведомственной лаборатории Свердловской прокуратуры К.Свечникова (участница тургруппы Блинова) вместе с небезызвестным Биенко
    ( http://infodjatlov.narod.ru/MK_URAL.jpg ). Не много ли "гражданских" помогало прокуратуре в многотрудном фотоделе? Но если это так, то имхо еще больше увеличивается вероятность того, что фотографии Дятловского и иных походов вполне могли перепутаться.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 10, 2022, 07:27:54 AM
Плёнки проявлял студент Биенко:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=75427

У него нет никаких сомнений, что это плёнки дятловцев:
Quote
С места трагедии (следователь) Иванов прислал мне в Свердловск самолетом первую же найденную фотопленку из фотоаппарата Юрия Кривонищенко. Ее надо было срочно проявить, и я проявил ее за ночь в своей квартире и отпечатал с нее фотографии последнего дня группы - от утренних веселых сборов до вечерней установки палатки в штормовых условиях.

Кроме того, на последней фотографии хорошо опознаётся Кривонищенко по нагрудному значку слева (рядом с чёрной пуговицей).

Дятловцы опознаны и на фотографиях восхождения:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61343
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 10, 2022, 08:16:45 AM
I know about Krivonischenko's badges, he wore them always: https://dyatlovpass.com/sports-classification
This is not his only treck: https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks#krivonischenko
Bienko is lying, there is no such negative:
"It had to be done urgently, and I developed it overnight in my apartment and printed photographs of the last day of the group - from the morning fun gatherings to the evening setting up the tent in stormy conditions." https://dyatlovpass.com/bienko

Игорь Б. before we continue anywhere with this conversation - show me a negative with the "last photo".
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 10, 2022, 08:41:21 AM
Говорят, что негативы потерял Кунцевич. Говорят также, что негативы, имеющиеся в Фонде не оригиналы, а фотокопии.
По этому вопросу свяжитесь с членом Фонда Саша Кан. Он что-то говорил про негативы. Это его форум:
http://sledopyt1959.mybb.ru/
Но он там редко бывает.

Меня вопрос негативов не интересует.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 10, 2022, 10:08:36 AM
This case is causing so much grief. Thank you for bringing new information to this forum.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 10, 2022, 04:22:27 PM
Teddy, thank you for the thoughtful reply and the video. I would not shelter on that windswept slope. It seems reasonable that the hikers would walk to the tree line with the wind at their back. It seems curious that footprints of the hikers were found leaving the tent, but no prints of the three returning to the tent. Its like the Voynich manuscript, sigh!
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 10, 2022, 04:48:43 PM
I thought you said you have read the book. The tent hasn't been on the slope so the three couldn't have left any footprints returning to it.
The footprints are not left by the hikers. They can preserve for a month. They are left days before the tent was found by the people who left the tent there and dragged the bodies down where they took them on first place from.
I have showed the photos of the footprints to an expert forensic traceologist and have his sworn expert opinion that these footprints are left by shod feet i.e. wearing shoes. It's in the book and the opinion is also published here in more details https://dyatlovpass.com/1079#chapter23
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 10, 2022, 05:40:54 PM
What about the statements saying the foot prints were found  bare feet or with socks?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 10, 2022, 06:02:34 PM
FYI Teddy there's another photo of Yuri Krivonischenko on the autopsy table with his shirt raised up on to his chest. That I can't see on Dyatlovpass.com . I don't know if this new or has been missed. I thought all photos were displayed here.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 01:17:00 AM
What about the statements saying the foot prints were found  bare feet or with socks?

The only testimony directly saying the footprints were barefoot was that of Chernishev:
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-88-93#91
It is impossible to tell if the tracks are left of feet in socks after being there for one month. The details of the imprint will not stand, I made experiments (https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-raised-tracks), the surface where the toes allegedly were visible is actually protruded upwards and blown by the wind for a month. Even if the tracks survive that long the surface would be smooth and shapeless. Look at the photos. Why aren't there any pictures of the "toes"? But there is a photo of a boot with a heel, why isn't this explained? This is catch §22, everyone that says the tracks are barefoot is because there were no tracks of other people (strangers). Why aren't these tracks examined as tracks of strangers, who says there are left by the hikers? Only speculations.

It goes like this - they had a camera, made pictures, you show it to an expert like they did with the tent and the expert says iof the tracks are barefoot or shod. Show me a photo with a toe.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 01:28:18 AM
FYI Teddy there's another photo of Yuri Krivonischenko on the autopsy table with his shirt raised up on to his chest. That I can't see on Dyatlov.com . I don't know if this new or has been missed. I thought all photos were displayed here.

Yes, all photos are published there. Show me the photo in question, I am very curious now.
Post a link where I can see it.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 11, 2022, 02:14:39 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/hKqCQ7Q/Screenshot-20220111-015619.png) (https://ibb.co/vJtDywy)

I looked at some links from Igor's link sledoypt. There's a lot of new stuff on there, some of it is very detailed and has variations and a lot of on site research. I love the way russians have discussions. It's like a fight of wit!
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 02:58:13 AM
Photo is added https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Yuri-Krivonischenko-post-mortem-8.jpg (https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Yuri-Krivonischenko-post-mortem-8.jpg)

I have promised my sources not to disseminate post mortem photos. There are a lot more where this one came from.
I already had the site when I was given access, so I didn't see necessary to to add to what I already had. They are not for public use.
Since Игорь Б. some one has published this one I will too, but they are just bigger and more graphic. What's the use of it. I scarcely look at them, like now, you made me.
I also have more funeral photos that I haven't published. They are of the coffins.

My statement has now changed that DYATLOVPASS.COM site contains all the photos form the trek and search:
https://dyatlovpass.com/trek-photos (https://dyatlovpass.com/trek-photos)
https://dyatlovpass.com/search-photos (https://dyatlovpass.com/search-photos)

Covering the eyes with the sticker is so the person is not recognized. What good does it do when you say who he is?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 11, 2022, 04:17:33 AM
Teddy, this was from the site Igor b recommended that you look at . It is not his site , Igor b did not publish this. I thought you wanted to see it? I would say all photos are of interest , there could be photos missing that have more information about the hike? I am supprised you say there are a lot more....in fact I think you and this site is quoted as resource too, in a positive way.

I thought this would of been helpful and I found it by accident by following the links to a discussion about explaining injuries. I have no idea about the eyes being covered in the photo, this was already done , maybe the other person who posted it thought it was respectful to cover the eyes of the dead as the same was done for the other photos that you already have, I don't think the sticker  was to hide the person's identity.

Teddy from what little I have read on the site that Igor b suggested to you  regarding negatives of the alleged final photo.further down this thread, it would seem you are respected in conversations within in it. I was trying to help.

Like here, they have many ideas and theories.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 06:27:55 AM
You don't cover the eyes out of respect but show their groin. This is hypocritical.
I am not saying anyone has done anything wrong. Things I decided not to post appear elsewhere so I have to catch up.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 07:20:34 AM
Please post the link with the post mortem photos you found. I want to see what else is there.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 11, 2022, 07:58:41 AM
Such a great point, Teddy. Toeprints would be nice. Also, I always hear conflicting stories about the footprints directly outside the tent. I've seen/heard accounts that the hikers burst from the tent and ran for their lives but the precise alignment of the footprints definitely does not show a mad exodus from the tent but a slow and calm departure. Some of the theories on here seem to omit the stride of those prints. Am I reading the photos wrong??
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 10:08:37 AM
mad exodus from the tent but a slow and calm departure. Some of the theories on here seem to omit the stride of those prints. Am I reading the photos wrong??

You got it right, they were walking calmly away from the tent, abreast, in a earshot from each other. What is most disturbing for me is that they never looked back, didn't turn around, at least not for as long as the tracks were preserved, which was 500 m or 0.3 mile.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 11, 2022, 10:09:55 AM
The link is in reply#6 from Igor b. I can't remember which sub link I found it in. I was way down rabbit holes . It was a thread about the deaths at the ceder.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 10:19:13 AM
I can be in one rabbit hole at a time. If someone sees photos that I do not have on the site, please let me know like Ziljoe did.
This site is a collective work. Thank you all for your support.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 11, 2022, 11:12:05 AM
I can be in one rabbit hole at a time. If someone sees photos that I do not have on the site, please let me know like Ziljoe did.
This site is a collective work. Thank you all for your support.
.

http://sledopyt1959.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=761#p29772

The photos should be on this page Teddy.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 11, 2022, 11:17:52 AM
After reading 1079 I was confused. How can a fallen tree crush hikers when they were camped on a barren slope? Why didn't the tree damage the tent or its contents? Instead, I think all of them were frightened by a ground tremor relating to cracking ice. They performed a textbook evacuation of the tent and scattered in the snow. They regrouped and decended the slope underestimating the distance in the night They did not immediately return after scattering because the tent was ruined by cutting and they would be foolish to return a mile uphill to find their tent covered and then trek another mile again down to the forest. This would be a total of 3 trips at night in sub zero weather. They could not dismiss the source of their fright.Why go back and get your stuff only to get trapped assuming the tent could be found. A needle in a haystack? After reaching the cedar,three members had a change of heart willing to take the risk with Igor feeling most responsible, others feeling loyal. The case will be unsolved because shaking ground, cracking ice slabs or even katabatic winds are transient phenomena.

Sorry Glenn. We have messed your thread up . Apologies . Some ground tremor is an idea.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 11, 2022, 11:32:59 AM
Sorry Glenn. We have messed your thread up . Apologies . Some ground tremor is an idea.

This we did. My apologies too.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 11, 2022, 01:12:02 PM
Thank you, Teddy. 'Disturbing' is the best word for this entire case and all the horrifying details that accompany it.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 11, 2022, 01:34:51 PM
I have showed the photos of the footprints to an expert forensic traceologist and have his sworn expert opinion that these footprints are left by shod feet i.e. wearing shoes.
Этого не может быть. Заключение эксперта легко опровергнуть.
Если бы следы были оставлены ногами в обуви, то это бы стало главной сенсацией поисков, о которой говорили бы все.
Действительно, как так? Вся обувь была найдена в палатке (за исключением трёх валенок), все дятловцы без обуви (за исключением Тибо и Слободина), а все следы оставлены ногами в обуви?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 11, 2022, 01:38:14 PM
The only testimony directly saying the footprints were barefoot was that of Chernishev:
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-88-93#91
Нет. Об отпечатках пальцев в следах свидетельствует и Согрин:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=98547
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 11, 2022, 01:47:54 PM
The footprints are not left by the hikers. They cannot(?) preserve for a month. They are left days before the tent was found...
Кто-то из поисковиков рассказывал, что следы на снегу сохранялись очень долго, до апреля. Их наблюдали разные смены поисковиков.
И тому есть примеры в истории:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=97992

P.S. Вспомнил, кто рассказывал о длительной сохранности следов - Карелин на конференции 2017:
"Действительно, следы-ледышки были. Они месяц "просидели" и после нас ещё были.
Я не знаю когда они исчезли. Может быть в апреле исчезли."
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=75402

Следы сохранились так долго потому, что обледенели.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: RMK on January 11, 2022, 02:16:00 PM
I can be in one rabbit hole at a time. If someone sees photos that I do not have on the site, please let me know like Ziljoe did.
This site is a collective work. Thank you all for your support.
.

http://sledopyt1959.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=761#p29772

The photos should be on this page Teddy.
Wow, you're right, Ziljoe.  That page has 6(?) morgue photos of Krivonischenko that I've never seen before!
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 11, 2022, 02:17:35 PM
So sorry, but does 'woodpeckers' mean?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 11, 2022, 02:24:32 PM
I can be in one rabbit hole at a time. If someone sees photos that I do not have on the site, please let me know like Ziljoe did.
This site is a collective work. Thank you all for your support.
.

http://sledopyt1959.mybb.ru/viewtopic.php?id=761#p29772

The photos should be on this page Teddy.
Wow, you're right, Ziljoe.  That page has 6(?) morgue photos of Krivonischenko that I've never seen before!

I think 5 are the same but just cropped.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: RMK on January 11, 2022, 02:26:21 PM
So sorry, but does 'woodpeckers' mean?
The Russian word "дятлов" ("dyatlov" when Romanized) translates literally to English as "woodpeckers".  You will see it a lot in text about the Dyatlov Pass Incident that has been machine translated from Russian to English.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 11, 2022, 02:42:38 PM
RMK, oh my, thank you so much for clarifying that. I've been lost on the 'woodpecker' evidence for some time now... bat1
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: RMK on January 11, 2022, 02:44:21 PM
Wow, you're right, Ziljoe.  That page has 6(?) morgue photos of Krivonischenko that I've never seen before!

I think 5 are the same but just cropped.
I am reminded of this year-old thread (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=788.0) in which the admittedly odd topic of Krivonischenko and postmortem priapism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_erection) came up.  At the time, I had never seen a morgue photo of Krivonischenko in which his genitals were exposed.  Well...today I learned that such photos exist, and they're just as unpleasant to look at as the rest of the postmortem photos.

Edit: and I still see no evidence of postmortem priapism.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 15, 2022, 08:27:02 AM
Did the group suffered calamity due to a fallen branch, and was there was a subsequent effort to misdirect investigators?  I think not. Why? The first reason is that no suitable  fallen branch in the immediate vicinity or surrounds was found with or without traces of canvas. If the branch was previously found and removed, earth and snow would be worked with boot prints, skids,,wood chips and a trail. Secondly, the forensic site and vicinity of the tragedy had no evidence of tampering.Third, if the scene was staged and  bodies were planted, there would exist the traces of it in the snow. Further, I doubt someone would have the imagjnation to think up a story line right on location, reenactment it and pose the deceased, especially in the ravine.

Occam's razor. The simplest answer is the best. It all boils down to whether the hikers turned right or went straight after making the cache. They went straight to not lose ground. They camped in the open, When frightened, they underestimated the distance to the trees. The fear was caused by a transient phenomena. I think a tremor caused by geological or meteorological sources is the answer. I thinkt in Russian eyes, the interest in this by other nationalities is a thinly veiled slap at Russian ability to take care of their own.I too an not Russian and am guilty .
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Manti on January 15, 2022, 09:15:51 PM
Secondly, the forensic site and vicinity of the tragedy had no evidence of tampering.
It was not a forensic site.. it was a search by students who hoped to find their friends, alive. There was no suspicion of any crime and it wasn't treated as a crime scene initially.


But, I also think the simplest answer is the best.

Searchers describe barefoot prints. To my knowledge none of the hikers were found barefoot. What is the simplest explanation for this?

All hikers found under some snow, but some of their clothes found on top of the snow? What is a simple explanation for this?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 15, 2022, 10:44:20 PM
Hello Manti,
Your comment is a good one. You comment on the rescue team, footprints and clothes. I find it significant that as the amateurs scoured the area, there was no suggestion that anyone else was in the area prior to the search. I have always had trouble with the footprints in the snow. I recall that snow leopard prints have been taken as Yeti and bear prints taken as Bigfoot. Snow is not the best keeper of trace evidence,I think. Clothing on the snow when all the hikers were buried is an interesting observation, but lightweight objects would float and drift in wind, heavy things sink. Since the tent was cut and wind was strong, perhaps blown clothing was just a random thing? What do you think?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 16, 2022, 01:34:43 AM
there was no suggestion that anyone else was in the area prior to the search.
This was a Mansi rest stop. Grigoriev dug up hide from around the cedar.
https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-3#33

I this there have been more people prior to the search too.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 16, 2022, 05:53:54 PM
Thank you so much for bringing up the tassled piece of fabric found at the cedar that was said to look similar to the ties Mansi used for logging purposes. Too often do people say there was NO evidence of anyone else there on the mountain.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Ziljoe on January 16, 2022, 10:15:35 PM
Thank you so much for bringing up the tassled piece of fabric found at the cedar that was said to look similar to the ties Mansi used for logging purposes. Too often do people say there was NO evidence of anyone else there on the mountain.

Have you read anything about the case?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 17, 2022, 12:16:30 AM
Thank you so much for bringing up the tassled piece of fabric found at the cedar that was said to look similar to the ties Mansi used for logging purposes.
This is in Slobtsov's testimony: https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-298-300#299back
"I was present when we found under same cedar a cloth belt of dark color with straps [tassels] at the ends. I don't know who this item belongs to. The length of this item is about 80 cm, the width is about 10 cm, looks like a belt or strap, with which the Mansi pull loads, except the object would be not strong enough for this purpose."

Journalist Grigoriev found a whole hide (animal skin) in the ground near the cedar: https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-3#33
"When I found something soft near that cedar and began to dig one and a half meter of snow, at first one student decided to help me, but when I got closer to the ground, he ran away. It was hide covered with thick moss."

Too often do people say there was NO evidence of anyone else there on the mountain.
I know.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 17, 2022, 12:20:13 AM
Thank you so much for bringing up the tassled piece of fabric found at the cedar that was said to look similar to the ties Mansi used for logging purposes.
This is in Slobtsov's testimony: https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-298-300#299back
"I was present when we found under same cedar a cloth belt of dark color with ribbons [tassels] at the ends. I don't know who this item belongs to. The length of this item is about 80 cm, the width is about 10 cm, looks like a belt or strap, with which the Mansi pull loads, except the object would be not strong enough for this purpose."

Journalist Grigoriev found a whole hide (animal skin) in the ground near the cedar: https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-3#33
"When I found something soft near that cedar and began to dig one and a half meter of snow, at first one student decided to help me, but when I got closer to the ground, he ran away. It was hide covered with thick moss."

Too often do people say there was NO evidence of anyone else there on the mountain.
I know.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 17, 2022, 10:19:06 AM
Ziljoe, have I read anything about the case? I don't know why you're being combative with me. Please read Teddys' response below and then ask her the same question since she, has several times agreed with my interpretation of certain things. If you have a problem with my theory or my questions (which have always been presented with respect and the acknowledgement that I am open-minded to other ideas) please ignore them. My right to an opinion that these kids were murdered holds as much or as little weight as your wolverines.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Perplexe on January 17, 2022, 11:00:32 AM
Pour ma part aussi aucune raison que la tente se soit trouvée là et si tel était alors le cas, c'est soit parce qu'il avait un rendez vous, soit parce qu'ils étaient en situation d'extrême urgence. Seule la peur peut dicter des comportements inexpliquables.
Autre chose aussi, ils n'ont pas pris un chemin logique pour se rendre au col. Venant de personnes aussi "intelligentes" et entrainées tout cet illogisme complique sérieusement le mystère. Bref il y a décidément quelque chose qui ne colle pas dans tout cela. Des photos ont été confisquées, c'est sûr. Où sont elles? Elles pourraient nous en dire plus.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 17, 2022, 11:05:58 AM
This is in Slobtsov's testimony: https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-298-300#299back
"I was present when we found under same cedar a cloth belt of dark color with tassels at the ends. I don't know who this item belongs to. The length of this item is about 80 cm, the width is about 10 cm, looks like a belt or strap, with which the Mansi pull loads, except the object would be not strong enough for this purpose."
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96415
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Perplexe on January 17, 2022, 01:21:15 PM
Teddy merci  beaucoup pour votre éclairage et pour nous expliquer que la tente ne se trouvait pas là. Elle a donc été déplacée pour brouiller les pistes et ne pas faire que l'on s'approche trop près de la vérité. Oui mais laquelle de vérité?
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 17, 2022, 11:58:22 PM
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96415
В сети встречается неправильная расшифровка "матерчатый пояс с темляками на концах". На самом деле "с тесемками":
(http://1723.ru/forums/uploads/post-4382-1567515688.jpg)
Полезная вещь в походе, особенно если предстоит спать на холодном полу. Пояс мог быть утерян вследствие обрыва или развязывания тесёмок.

Igor B. is saying that the word is not tassels but straps and that the item could be the useful thing hikers improvise when going into the winter mountain.
The problem is that Slobtsov who saw it and who is an experienced hiker didn't recognize it as such. No matter what he call it he said he doesn't know what it is. Slobtsov surely has seen what Igor B. is suggesting it was.

I have updated the documents with straps but kept the tassels because the whole world is searching for tassels now. Igor B. is right that everything has to be looked over. If a case is cold then we have missed something.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 18, 2022, 06:10:37 AM
The problem is that Slobtsov who saw it and who is an experienced hiker didn't recognize it as such. No matter what he call it he said he doesn't know what it is.
Мне неизвестно, чтобы туристы в те годы носили такие пояса. Но Золотарёв отличался от других туристов. Он был фронтовик, которые всю войну спали в окопах на земле. Этот пояс мог принадлежать ему.
На всякий случай, этот пояс не может быть солдатской обмоткой. Длина обмотки более 2 метров.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 18, 2022, 08:26:34 AM
I do not know if hikers in those years wore such belts. But Zolotaryov was different from other tourists. He was a front-line soldier who slept in the trenches on the ground throughout the war. This belt could belong to him.
Agree

Just in case, this belt can't be a soldier's wrap. The length of the winding is more than 2 meters.

So you think that can not be what Yudin calls in this interview soldiers wrap [puttee] солдатская обмотка https://youtu.be/_vaPTqZnFlA?t=1559
25:59
там была одна вещь чужеродная солдатская обмотка я ее развернул его нового сказал чтобы это не их не вещь я не знаю как это как это вещь вот здесь может быть она откуда-то из другого места в это но он это протокол не записал я делал вывод что ему вот это было не надо записывать от откуда там жила солдатская обмотка а потом начальник поиска подполковника артяков он вторую обмотку нашел в этом в овраге и денежный последних а там же вот столько снега обмотка там естественно с знаки потерялась потому что вот в таком снегу вот и он нашел эту вторую обмотку и он и он даже специально достал радиограмму появление обмотки мне непонятно и он ее описал ой адреса в начале сказал что вот обмотка 1 то есть это там были чужие люди которые это все делали

According to Yudin, Ortyukov is mentioning in the telegram a second puttee and he says that it is 1m long. This is closer to 80 cm than 2 m.

(https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Dyatlov-Pass-radiograms-may-1959-191-11-51-02-N2.jpg)

Why weren't these cloth articles belt/strap with ribbons 80 cm and soldiers foot wraps 2 pcs mentioned in the inventory protocols of the items found on the scene?

BTW there are foot wraps (bindings) mentioned that belong to Lyuda. They are called "портянки" not "обмотки". Can you tell me the difference?
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-11-20?rbid=17743#sheet13 (https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-11-20?rbid=17743#sheet13)

Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 18, 2022, 08:33:14 AM
Teddy merci  beaucoup pour votre éclairage et pour nous expliquer que la tente ne se trouvait pas là. Elle a donc été déplacée pour brouiller les pistes et ne pas faire que l'on s'approche trop près de la vérité. Oui mais laquelle de vérité?

"Truth is complex, but lies are obvious."  – Toncho Cheytanov (my literature teacher)
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Игорь Б. on January 18, 2022, 09:21:36 AM
Самые короткие солдатские обмотки Красной армии были 160 см, но в основном длиннее.

Обмотки - это вместо голенища:
https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B8&from

https://youtu.be/IdLnKi2auSw?t=56

Портянки - это вместо носков:
https://yandex.ru/images/search?text=%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1%82%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B5%20%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%82%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%BA%D0%B8&from

https://youtu.be/HuyihtcFBuY?t=9
(наматывает неправильно)

Перепутать портянки и бинты невозможно. Портянки гораздо шире любых бинтов.

P.S. В 1959 году обмотки в Советской армии уже не носили.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Perplexe on January 18, 2022, 02:34:36 PM
Teddy effectivement cette phrase de votre professeur de littérature signifie que s'il n'y avait pas de mensonges la vérité serait simple donc et que l'on aurait depuis longtemps trouvé les raisons de cette tragédie. Mais alors:
1- Qui a intérêt à mentir et pourquoi?
2- Cette tragédie est pour moi d'origine non humaine, mais nous en avons déjà discuté. Mais alors quelle vérité a t-on intérêt à cacher et pourquoi? Aller je me jette à l'eau: à mon humble avis c'est parce que cette vérité va remettre en cause toutes nos croyances, et ce serait peut-être une porte entre-ouverte pour commencer à se poser des questions que les gouvernements préfèrent justement ignorer, alors que à partir d'un certain niveau hiérarchique eux sont au courant. Et ça cela peut-être dangereux pour un régime quel qui soit. Qu'en pensez vous Teddy? N'hésitez pas à me dire si vous le pensez que je suis totalement à côté de la plaque et à ce moment-là je laisserai tomber mes recherches car intuitivement je vous fais confiance. Merci par avance.

Teddy indeed this sentence of your literature professor means that if there were no lies the truth would therefore be simple and that we would have found the reasons for this tragedy a long time ago. But then:
1- Who has an interest in lying and why?
2- This tragedy is for me of non-human origin, but we have already discussed it. But then what truth is it in our interest to hide and why? Come on, I'm taking the plunge: in my humble opinion, it's because this truth will challenge all our beliefs, and it might be a half-open door to start asking questions that governments prefer precisely ignore, whereas from a certain hierarchical level they are aware. And that can be dangerous for any diet. What do you think Teddy? Do not hesitate to tell me if you think so that I am totally off the mark and at that time I will drop my research because intuitively I trust you. Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Manti on January 18, 2022, 06:58:32 PM
As for the ground tremor, maybe this thread is also of interest: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=791.0;topicseen
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 19, 2022, 08:10:23 PM
Tks Manti.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 20, 2022, 02:29:12 AM
1- Who has an interest in lying and why?

I don't think if I keep saying that body dump so you don't loose your job and be sent in the gulag gets any clearer by repeating it over and over again, and it is in the book, so I have accepted to elaborate some more, maybe my voice will add to the argument. Not sure if we are not just gathered here to spend time talking about something and if we are really making any progress in solving the case if we can't convince each other or seem to agree on anything, but I promise to elaborate more on the subject in a talk show on the anniversary of the tragedy. I will announce it a week prior.

2- This tragedy is for me of non-human origin, but we have already discussed it. But then what truth is it in our interest to hide and why? Come on, I'm taking the plunge: in my humble opinion, it's because this truth will challenge all our beliefs, and it might be a half-open door to start asking questions that governments prefer precisely ignore, whereas from a certain hierarchical level they are aware. And that can be dangerous for any diet. What do you think Teddy? Do not hesitate to tell me if you think so that I am totally off the mark and at that time I will drop my research because intuitively I trust you. Thanks in advance.

I think that if the government was involved they would have done a much better job hiding their tracks. The scene was a mess. Body recovery was even a bigger mess. Who would allow films from the camera to be sent out in civilian's bathrooms to be developed, printed and distributed among friends and families before the investigator sees what's on them?
If by non-human origin you mean extraterrestrial.... We can both self medicate get on the subject.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 21, 2022, 01:35:08 PM
1- Who has an interest in lying and why?

I don't think if I keep saying that body dump so you don't loose your job and be sent in the gulag gets any clearer by repeating it over and over again, and it is in the book, so I have accepted to elaborate some more, maybe my voice will add to the argument. Not sure if we are not just gathered here to spend time talking about something and if we are really making any progress in solving the case if we can't convince each other or seem to agree on anything, but I promise to elaborate more on the subject in a talk show on the anniversary of the tragedy. I will announce it a week prior.
Great point, Teddy. It doesn't seem like much progress is being made because many ppl (myself included at times) have developed their own theory of what happened and tend to omit or explain away the evidence that doesn't support their theory. Scenarios seem to get wilder and wilder by the moment but I am truly faithful that if anyone can make any progress with this case, you can.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 24, 2022, 06:10:59 PM
For my part, I believe Russian authorities acted responsibly and with considerable effort to resolve the tragedy. I can not fathom that any conspiracy to kill 9 valuable Soviets, stage a scenario, and lie to authorities that would get past the scrutiny of Soviet prosecutors. Russians are intelligent people, they love their children and want the truth. I think the truth is that the hikers were scared by earth tremors and they feared a slab avalanche because they cut their tent into a ledge. They vacated, underestimated the distance to the forest and succumbed to the elements and a bad fall. It makes sense to be me whereas other theories are wanting. It is just deucedly hard to accept people trekking a mile with no boots. That is just crazy! Sigh!
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: Teddy on January 25, 2022, 01:02:18 AM
For my part, I believe Russian authorities acted responsibly and with considerable effort to resolve the tragedy. I can not fathom that any conspiracy to kill 9 valuable Soviets, stage a scenario, and lie to authorities that would get past the scrutiny of Soviet prosecutors. Russians are intelligent people, they love their children and want the truth.

I agree with this part. Ground tremor, as many other theories, explains the fist part of the mystery but not the second, a mile down the slope.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 25, 2022, 08:32:38 AM
Military-type (or even execution-style crimes) are clean and quick. The assassins are like ghosts, there and gone, typically with quick gunshots to the head. That's why these seem like rage killings to me. I think those at the cedar fought for their lives with the defense wounds to prove it. What happened to the others was even more violent and horrific (different MO, different offenders than cedar) If you think the scenario of 'jumping or stomping' caused the rib and heart injuries in the snow den, it is unfathomable that assassins would take the time or go to such lengths to cause so much agony. Unless of course it was torture.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 25, 2022, 05:48:48 PM
Military-type (or even execution-style crimes) are clean and quick. The assassins are like ghosts, there and gone, typically with quick gunshots to the head. That's why these seem like rage killings to me. I think those at the cedar fought for their lives with the defense wounds to prove it. What happened to the others was even more violent and horrific (different MO, different offenders than cedar) If you think the scenario of 'jumping or stomping' caused the rib and heart injuries in the snow den, it is unfathomable that assassins would take the time or go to such lengths to cause so much agony. Unless of course it was torture.

All behavior is motivated. I can't find sufficient motivation to defend the deaths of the hikers as victims or perpetrators of violence. That said, I can't find sufficient motivation to walk a mile in stocking feet in snow. They misjudged their situation tragically.
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 26, 2022, 04:57:08 AM
There would be no other motivation to leave the tent barefooted and in underwear unless they were under extreme duress. But the high impact chest wounds couldn't be caused by a fall unless it was from at least 60 feet high. There is nowhere in the terrain around the scenes that shows a 60 foot drop anywhere. So the chest wounds couldn't have come from falling...   
Title: Re: Ground tremor
Post by: GlennM on January 26, 2022, 09:04:19 PM
There would be no other motivation to leave the tent barefooted and in underwear unless they were under extreme duress. But the high impact chest wounds couldn't be caused by a fall unless it was from at least 60 feet high. There is nowhere in the terrain around the scenes that shows a 60 foot drop anywhere. So the chest wounds couldn't have come from falling...

Elizabeth,  do you believe the events leading to their deaths occurred during daylight hours? I've always held this was a night time occurrence. Also, I wonder that the skeletal injuries sustained by some, not all of the team came from an external source that not everyone was exposed to, such as a detonation. Surely, a blast would leave a trace, if not a crater. If the deceased are found in a ravine, could it be possible that when they fell, they were so cold that they did not "ball up" to protect themselves from impact?  Alternately, if the hikers were assaulted with rifle butts, those soldiers would surely have finished with bullets and left prints in the snow. But then again, the loose snow was quite deep in the ravine, easily covering tracks, I suppose. I can't see motivation for man against man conflict, though. There was no robbery, nothing to gain. No secrets to hide.