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Author Topic: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation  (Read 35740 times)

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April 23, 2019, 01:29:24 PM
Reply #90

Clacon

Guest
Hi Marchesk,

Yes, I suppose you're right. That is the more important question.

Here's that post by "Ryan" - I don't know his background but he seems to know what he's talking about. Let me know what you think after reading:

"I've seen some misinterpretations of the radiological report (pp. 371-377), so I wanted to walk people through the methodology and the math on Table 2.

The Soviets are using a measurement unit for beta contamination of disintegrations per minute per 150 square centimeters. (This is a bit strange; I've recently acquired American military surplus contamination probes, and they use 100 cm^2 as the area.)

The test equipment is an array of four STS-6 Geiger tubes in a "lead house." People in the US typically use the term "lead castle" - it's just an enclosure shielded on all sides by lead. Because the goal is to count decays from the fabric, anything that can be done to reduce the natural background hitting the Geiger tubes will make the instrument more sensitive to the sample placed inside it due to decreased background noise.

The report mentions the background radiation as being 90 pulses per minute before washing, and 100 pulses per minute after washing. My assumption is that they probably measured all the samples before washing at one time, and all the samples after washing at another time, taking one background reading for each time. Background radiation is not constant. Weather can affect radon concentration, for example. I imagine atmospheric density and the sunspot cycle will have an effect, too. To determine the background number, they simply run the detector with the chamber empty.

Let's look at item #10, Dubinina's brown sweater. Before washing, it measured 640 counts per minute, which appears in the "Total cpm" column. However, 90 is the background number, so we take 640 - 90 = 550 counts per minute.

Now there is an adjustment factor of 8.9 mentioned in the report. A Geiger tube isn't always going to respond with a pulse if a beta particle hits it because it is not 100% sensitive. Also, there are geometry issues. A radioactive sample is going to emit radiation uniformly in all directions. If you have four tubes sitting above the sample, not every particle will strike a tube. So that means not every beta emitted by the sample will be counted. It appears this detector will measure 1 beta for every 8.9 emitted. So we take 550 counts / minute * 8.9 and arrive at 4895 actual disintegrations from the sample. This appears in the report as 4900, clearly rounded, in the "Radioactivity of contaminated area" column.

Next, it must be noted that the sweater sample size was only 75 cm^2 according to the "Area cm^2" column. But the standard for activity is disintegrations per minute per 150 cm^2. So we need to multiply the result by (150 / 75) or 2. And 4895 * 2 = 9790. The report lists 9900 in the "Radioactivity of contaminated area in terms of 150 cm^2" column. Again, rounded. (This is a guess, but I'm wondering if they used a slide rule, in which case the numbers will be close but not exact.)

Looking at the values after washing, we get:

(390 - 100) * 8.9 = 2581 (the report shows 2600)
2581 * (150 / 75) = 5162 (the report shows 5200)

Now I need to note that lines 6 and 7 have typos in the English translation on dyatlovpass.com. They list the counts per minute after washing as 11 and 77, respectively. These make no sense because background after washing is 100. But looking at the report image, I see this is 111 and 177 respectively.)

Samples 2, 3, and 4 list 2 pairs of numbers for total counts per minute. I'm guessing that the before washing and after washing activities may have been measured twice. It seems only the first number was used for further computation, except for sample 4 after washing, in which case the last was used.

Now the number 5000 decays / minute / 150 cm^2 has been used as a threshold in the report. First, I need to be clear that this is NOT background. As shown above, background was subtracted early on. So any number substantially >0 means there is contamination above natural background.

This 5000 number appears to be an occupational safety limit. In other words, if you worked at a Soviet nuclear facility, and at the end of your shift your clothes had 6000 decays per min per 150 cm^2, that would be considered an unacceptable problem.

But that does NOT mean that, say, ending your shift with 4000 on your clothes is in any way normal! It still means your clothing is contaminated. The contamination is just not at a level that would be unacceptable for a nuclear worker. Also, that nuclear worker will not be wearing clothing contaminated at that level home! If there is a potential of contamination, then they're going to change into different clothing for their shift.

But we're talking about hikers in the woods, not workers at a nuclear facility, so anything obviously above 0 is going to be unusual. The fact that many of the results do not exceed the safety standards for a nuclear worker doesn't mean they should be considered normal.

The waistband of Kolevatov's sweater, the bottom part of Kolevatov's trousers, and Dubinina's brown sweater are all >5000. But that doesn't mean they are the only contaminated clothes. All of the 9 samples, before washing, were substantially above background. The least contaminated of the nine samples was the bottom part of Thibault Brignoles' trousers, at 600. Everything else was >1000.

So ALL of the clothing samples tested on ALL four hikers in the ravine was contaminated with beta emitting isotope(s)."

April 23, 2019, 01:38:09 PM
Reply #91

Clacon

Guest
Sarapuk - I understand the trouble with speculation and yes I tend to overdo it a bit sometimes ( tongue2)....however simply negating every single exercise in thinking with the fact that there "is little to no evidence to support it" is sort of nullifying the purpose of the forum.

April 23, 2019, 03:10:36 PM
Reply #92
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It could have happened like that, but do you honestly think it did? Are you 100 percent? I don't know Star Man....I'm starting to think a fight wasn't enough to send them out into the night like that. :(

And what of my question about where the physical fight occurred, because I don't know if there is any evidence that a fight occurred at the tent. Where the physical fight occurred is integral to the fight theory, right?? And I say physical, because of course yes, an argument could have occurred at the tent, but a verbal fight wouldn't result in the exposure death of the hikers....unless they were running from an attacker. But one attacker? Against minimum 6??

If a knife had been used, don't you think there would have been way more slash wounds?

And the only "possible" wound caused by a knife was supposedly on Dyatlov's palm:
Vietnamka: "In the area of the palm surface of the second and fifth fingers there is a skin wound of irregular linear shape with regular edges located transverse to the length of the fingers; the surface wounds are up to 0.1 (or 0.2 – note) cm deep."

I don't know if Semyon's wound can be attributed to a knife slash - 8 x 6cm's just seems too wide doesn't it? The skin covering the skull is so thin.

And I just can't forget about the radioactive clothing. I first thought it might be attributed to 2 of them working at a nuclear facility. However, remembering that the amount was high DESPITE lying in water and having most of it apparently washed away and reading about the examination from a person who seemed to be an expert on this subject ("Ryan"), I am of the belief that the radiation that tainted the clothes occurred on the mountain.

Hi Clacon,

Tbh it was just off the cuff speculation.  I was just trying to brain storm aNother scenario.  I'm not sure if a fight would be enough either. 

In terms of where a fight might have occurred I am trying not to limit it to any specific place.  I think it could have happened at the tent, on the slope, or at the cedar etc.  the reason I speculate that the fight happened at the tent is because this is where events began and it's difficult to explain the shoes without it starting there?

In terms of one person with a knife vs 8 others who are unarmed then the exact psychology of the situation is important.  Would the situation be radically different if the one person had a gun?  Not that much because the first person to confront the attacker is likely to get killed or seriously injured.  Who is going to take on that role?  Are there any heroes amongst th group?  Maybe Semyon?  He did have a significant laceration to his skull?  He is also the other alpha of the group.

Would there be more knife injuries.  Not necessarily.  If the original fight started as a brawl, hand to hand combat we would expect the usual cuts, bruises, swollen lips and blooded noses (which of course are present amongst the group).  It is only when Dyatlov pulls a knife out and threatens them that things take a more sinister and dangerous turn.  The threat of the knife and potential lethal injuries might have been enough to cause the flight response.  I think you have to put yourself in their shoes on that mountain.  Imagine this as a potential scenario:

Dyatlov has affections for Zina, but someone else is flirting with her on the trip.  It becomes too much for him and he loses his temper and the fight starts.  Zina talks about Dyatlov's rude behaviour in her diary and says that she does not recognise him.  What is going on with Dyatlov?  His behaviour is unusual.


The fight spills out of the tent and some of the group take some serious knocks (rustem for instance).  The group gang up on Dyatlov and he pulls his knife out.  Any persons who were still in the tent clamber out to see what is going on.  Most of them have no footwear on.  Dyatlov takes a hostage with his knife and orders those with weapons to throw them down.  The ice axe at the entrance to the tent, kolevatovs sheath outside and his fink inside.  The hostage breaks free of Dyatlov and runs.  Dyatlov charges at the group and they flee down the hillside with Dyatlov in pursuit.  The group are not thinking, they are just trying to get away from someone with a knife. 

There are indicators that the group splits up at some point.  Possibly on the slope on the way down. 

There are indicators that the two Yuris climbed the cedar tree.  They were the least best dressed so why would they do that unless they were trying to get away from someone.  Their scratches and abrasions and frost bite indicates that they may have been up that cedar tree for some time.  Could Dyatlov have been waiting underneath it for them?

One thing that I find odd about the three found on the slope.  If Dyatlov and Zina were close (an item), even if they were just together then why would they leave each other to die if they were struggling?  Dyatlov would certainly not have left Zina if they were Together.  I doubt they would have left Rustem either.  Rustem had an ice bed which means he collapse some time before he actually died.  So why didn't they help him?  Probably because there was nobody else there.  Same for Zina.  They didn't leave anyone because maybe none of them were together to start with.  But if Dyatlov had a thing for Zina (photo in his pocket) why wasnt he with her?  Maybe because she didn't recognise him and he was the cause of the DPI.  She ran away from him not with him.

Semyon's head wound. Youre right it could have just been a result of a fall.

The radioactive clothing has always stuck out for me.  But as many people repeatedly point out, this could be circumstantial evidence.  Another scenario is that they were poisoned with a radiosctive substance?

I think there are still a range of scenarios to be explored under "the simple credible option"

I am liking the Dyatlov psychotic breakdown a bit more now. lol2

Regards

Star man


April 23, 2019, 03:20:01 PM
Reply #93
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
And I just can't forget about the radioactive clothing. I first thought it might be attributed to 2 of them working at a nuclear facility. However, remembering that the amount was high DESPITE lying in water and having most of it apparently washed away and reading about the examination from a person who seemed to be an expert on this subject ("Ryan"), I am of the belief that the radiation that tainted the clothes occurred on the mountain.

If the radioactivity is from the mountain, then why was it found on only two of their clothes?

But more importantly, what made the investigative team think to look for radioactivity? Who asked for that test? Do we know a reason?

Seems like an odd thing to look for in the middle of nowhere, unless they suspected a secret nuclear test, facility or dumping ground nearby. Maybe even the higher ups had their own suspicion, and thus they decided to put pressure on closing the case early, just in case there was something going on.

I agree the radioactivity has always stuck out like a sore thumb to me.  But there are plenty of people on the forum who believe it is just circumstantial too.

Regards

Star man

April 23, 2019, 03:37:07 PM
Reply #94
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Star man

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Hahaha - great minds Star Man....

Okay, so....how do the events go down? Its interesting you mention Igor as a possible instigator - if you believe the newspaper existed/wasn't a plant.
I was reading he was an A-type and controlling. Someone mentioned Lyuda was not a fan. Maybe she ran off and got lost?

Who is he likely going to fight? Surely it involves Zina and Rustem (same injuries) and they all die on the slope. Or Igor isn't the bad guy, maybe defending Zina from Rustem or someone else? There's also that straight edged would on Igor's hand....

 It seems weird to me that they were the closest to the tent but died first. Why? Because of their severe injuries? And wouldn't the Yuris have found at least one of the 3 on the way to the tent? Unless they are the 2 who storm off first. "Eff them we're gonna make a fire and not go back to the tent".

They would have had to have been horribly lost and disorientated or drunk to not have found their way back to the tent or to have burned themselves around that fire which is what appears to have happened.

Someone or some two were perhaps not involved in the initial event - maybe outside peeing or something? I just don't think the footprint evidence and the behaviour points to ALL of them exiting at once and then scattering into 3 groups.

This just seems like something kids trying to get their higher tourist certifications wouldn't do. But, they were just kids I guess.

Ok so bear with me on this. Remember it is a thought experiment.  Why you may ask? Because sometimes when trying to solve a complex problem it’s useful to start with the most simple solutions.  Only if you can’t solve it with the simple solutions do you allow one more level of complexity and then you try to solve it again.  I am not convinced that all the simple explanations have been explored in a logical way and exhaustive way.

Dyatlov may have fallen out with the Yuris.  Krivonishenko was young and from the diary entries seems unhappy “calls his friends traitors “. His jacket is badly burned and they joke about it.  Dorishenko may have been close to him.  Rusted is closer to Dyatlov.  So when Yuri K starts fight some of the others take sides and instead of being able to break up the fight they get dragged into it and it escalated from there.

On the slope they head away from the tent.  Initially the groups head in the same general direction, but soon lose each other in the darkness.  At first the Yuris think they can survive by building a fire and by the time they realise their mistake it’s too late.

The others set out in two different groups to find the Yuris.  Semyons group have a terrible accident on the dangerous slope near the tree line.  Dyatlov group simply gets lost and can’t find the tent.  The end?

Star man

This doesnt sound like a very simple explanation. How can you know what any of the Dyatlov Group were thinking  !  ?

The diaries provide some clues.  Also the photos.  60% of communication is visual.  Also people in a group often take on roles in the social hierarchy that are common.  People are basically programmed to think in a particular way.  System 1 thinking.  The Abilene paradox.  It's behaviour that we all learn as children, and then take for granted later in life.  The evening Otorten provides a glimpse about what the author was thinking.

Regards

Star man

People are not Computers. People are not programmed to think in a particular way. You say that there are clues of friction in the diaries. Only clues  !  ?  Actually it is not even evidence.

Yes people are programmed.  People basically have two modes - system 1 and system 2 thinking.  System 2 is used to learn.  In other words to program system 1. System 2 is slow and cumbersome.  System 1 is sub conscious.  Solve the following 2 problems in your head:

10x6=
567x 398=

The first answer you provide is pre programmed.

The second will likely be system 2 in operation.

Regards

Star man

The Human Brain is a very incredible thing. The best scientists in the World have never been able to figure it out and you are saying that there are 2 programmes  !  ?

 It has been said that the brain is the most complex structure in the universe yes.  I am not saying that there are two programmes.  I am saying that there are two basic systems at work in the human mind.  System 1 which is linked to the subconscious and which is programmed by system 2  - which is who you think you are ( your conscious self).

What is true is that we learn most of our responses and thought patterns from birth.  For instance:

In the uk and most western countries we are programmed to think of dogs as mans beat friend, and great pets.  This is what we learn.  This what we understand as normal.

In China People are programmed to think of dogs as a tasty meal. This is what they have learned.  This is what they understand as normal.

Regards

Star man



April 23, 2019, 11:57:12 PM
Reply #95
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Just to build on the Dyatlov psychotic breakdown scenario:

At the cedar. The two Yuris had severe frost bite even though there was a fire there?

If there were external elements at work that presented them with a threat then lightning a fire would be a risky strategy because it would alert the attackers to their location.  But if the attackers were already at the cedar then lightning a fire would maybe be a logical thing to do.  Krivonishenko also had some severe burns that people here are trying to understand.  So what about this idea:

Dyatlov follows the two Yuris and they climb the cedar to try and make it difficult for Dyatlov to get them.  Dyatlov lights a fire underneath the cedar to keep warm and also with a burning branch of a tree he prods and pokes at Yuri K burning his legs.  Yuri K knows that if he lets go of the tree he is a dead man so he bites his hand to try and suppress the pain and cling to the tree.

Dyatlov eventually leaves and heads back up the slope and the two Yuris climb down but can’t sustain the fire because they are too weak and cold.  They are later found by Kolevatov who moves them and takes their clothing.

Regards
Star man

April 24, 2019, 11:42:46 AM
Reply #96
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Sarapuk - I understand the trouble with speculation and yes I tend to overdo it a bit sometimes ( tongue2)....however simply negating every single exercise in thinking with the fact that there "is little to no evidence to support it" is sort of nullifying the purpose of the forum.

Well yes that has been suggested before. I know we need to keep all OPTIONS open in order for the Forum to continue. We also need to try and make progress towards some kind of solution. My only concern is that if we throw to many speculative ideas into the Forum it only makes it harder to get reasonable progress. Thats why I prefer to keep a steady path, one that enlightens without weighing us down.
DB

April 24, 2019, 11:52:35 AM
Reply #97
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
For Me the most important part of this particular equation is MISSING.  We dont know what type of GEIGER COUNTER or COUNTERS were used in the field and we dont have any readings taken from those field measurements if indeed there were any measurements, because Ivanov claims that his Geiger Detector went CRAZY. If we had READINGS from the field then we could compare them with the later readings. A month is a long time when you are doing Radiation Tests. How many months between the 2 Geiger Counter uses  !  ? 
DB

April 24, 2019, 02:05:09 PM
Reply #98

Clacon

Guest
A good and humble answer. :)

I wish they had done some readings on the latest expeditions - that could have at least put some questions to rest.

Do you think after all this time, there would have been anything left??

April 24, 2019, 06:27:42 PM
Reply #99
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Vietnamka


Do you know about EURT?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster
See the map. Zina come back from kamensk-Uralskiy just 2 days before the trip.
Krivo worked in this site (Kyshtym)

April 24, 2019, 11:36:17 PM
Reply #100
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Do you know about EURT?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster
See the map. Zina come back from kamensk-Uralskiy just 2 days before the trip.
Krivo worked in this site (Kyshtym)

Are you suggesting that Zina became contaminated there and then cross contaminated everyone else including the tent?  It might make sense.

Regards
Star man

April 25, 2019, 07:40:18 AM
Reply #101
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Yes, and more interestingly Krivo worked as a cleanup 'specialist' of sorts. Most people dont realize that the Russians are responsible for 2 of the 3 major radiation disasters that have taken place.   shock1
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 07:45:41 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 25, 2019, 09:02:35 AM
Reply #102

Clacon

Guest
This is great info! Thank you!

Are we thinking then that we can MAAAAYBEEE rule out exposure to radiation occurring on the mountain that night then??

Is it reasonable to assume they didn't have the precautions, as well as the knowledge, we have now when it comes to exposure to radiation??
Wouldn't they have destroyed their contaminated clothing? Unless they didn't know or they did but were unaware of the long-term effects of exposure to low grade radiation contamination on clothing??

April 25, 2019, 05:23:33 PM
Reply #103
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A good and humble answer. :)

I wish they had done some readings on the latest expeditions - that could have at least put some questions to rest.

Do you think after all this time, there would have been anything left??

Its hard to say without knowing what type of alleged Radioactive Material we are dealing with. Others in this Forum have put forward ideas but without knowing the basic facts we end up being stuffed with uncertainty.
DB

April 25, 2019, 05:30:12 PM
Reply #104
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Do you know about EURT?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyshtym_disaster
See the map. Zina come back from kamensk-Uralskiy just 2 days before the trip.
Krivo worked in this site (Kyshtym)

Well the area of the FALLOUT was more than 100 KM from the Dyatlov Incident. As for one or more of the Group being the contaminator, so to speak, we then have to bring in Ivanov again. Ivanov and his going crazy Geiger Counter at the Camp Site. Could a person be so contaminated and still function properly ! ?
DB

April 25, 2019, 05:40:55 PM
Reply #105
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
This is great info! Thank you!

Are we thinking then that we can MAAAAYBEEE rule out exposure to radiation occurring on the mountain that night then??

Is it reasonable to assume they didn't have the precautions, as well as the knowledge, we have now when it comes to exposure to radiation??
Wouldn't they have destroyed their contaminated clothing? Unless they didn't know or they did but were unaware of the long-term effects of exposure to low grade radiation contamination on clothing??

Well it is the Dyatlov Mystery. Iam not sure we can really rule anything out, YET. What we also need to remember is that the Soviet Union were pioneers in Nuclear Manufacturing. Accidents happen. A serious one happened in the USA, known as The Three Mile Island Accident. The Soviets were not without knowledge, they had proper procedures when dealing with Nuclear Materials. If you look at any examples of Protective Clothing from the 1950's, including from the USA, you will see rather crude looking designs, compared to todays HIGH TECH SUITS etc.
DB

April 25, 2019, 11:28:03 PM
Reply #106
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Ok. Let us say the contamination from a nuclear accident is the simple credible reason for the radiation.

So what about Dyatlov having some kind of psychotic meltdown?  There could be indications of this in the diaries.  Also the pattern fits.

Regards
Star man

April 26, 2019, 05:02:02 AM
Reply #107
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Vietnamka


The clothes were contaminated by beta radioactive substance (may be very small gamma has not been detected).
   Nuclear weapons - plutonium or uranium with a very strong gamma radiation. Not a lot of elements has beta only
Kyshtym disaster was a explosion of of the tanks containing about 70–80 tons of liquid radioactive waste failed, with caesium-137 and strontium-90 - both beta.

Sorry, let me finish later.

April 26, 2019, 08:16:50 AM
Reply #108
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Vietnamka


Quote
The Soviets were not without knowledge, they had proper procedures when dealing with Nuclear Materials.. 
How to say... not really. It's well known story how Serov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Serov keeper an uranium sample in  a drawer.
The second reasone - USSR was ready to pay  a lives during the Cold War.  Kyshtym was not  first, it was only one complex  of industrial processing of nuclear weapon in ussr in 1959. Disaster happened. In case of "knowledges" we should have lost in the Cold War in 1959. We decided to clean contaminated area without stopping the process of production.  No one knows how many lives we gave for realization ot this decision. until  1989 we kept secret the fact of the disaster.
 Some  documents are published now. Guys, the contamination of the clothes of  soldiers who took part in the cleaning reached up to 500 000. Did we try to control? Yes. Could we? No.

If you would like to know about Kyshtym disaster better - find the Los Alamos report to CIA. It's very interesting document.



April 26, 2019, 08:47:45 AM
Reply #109
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Ok but is it possible that the contamination was from some other mishap where they had been working and then there was cross contamination?  Then we can concentrate on whether the events were because Dyatlov had a psychotic meltdown?

Regards
Star man

April 26, 2019, 09:08:35 AM
Reply #110

Clacon

Guest
Oh my Gosh Vietnamka - where do you get your stuff??!! Intriguing as always! :) So many questions:

1) Do you believe, in that era, they knew of the effects of contamination? And if they did, they didn't care to make it known to the workers in plants?

2) Would they have known to destroy contaminated items like clothing? Did they wear protective clothing?? Do you think its likely the 9 didn't know about contamination and kept/wore 
    their clothes anyway?

3) Btw, the poster "Ryan" who seems to be well versed in radiation agreed that the radiation was "Beta". Does that mean the absence of Gamma radiation on their clothing likely means 
    it DID NOT come from a bomb/weapon/nuclear device??

4) Would the Beta radiation on clothing cause the Geiger counters to "go crazy" as Ivanov said?

I followed the link for "Chronic Radiation Syndrome" on the Wiki article posted by Vietnamka:

Chronic radiation syndrome (CRS) is a constellation of health effects of radiation that occur after months or years of chronic exposure to high amounts. Chronic radiation syndrome develops with a speed and severity proportional to the radiation dose received, i.e., it is a deterministic effect of exposure to ionizing radiation, unlike radiation-induced cancer. It is distinct from acute radiation syndrome in that it occurs at dose rates low enough to permit natural repair mechanisms to compete with the radiation damage during the exposure period. Dose rates high enough to cause the acute form (> ~0.1 Gy/h) are fatal long before onset of the chronic form. The lower threshold for chronic radiation syndrome is between 0.7 and 1.5 Gy, at dose rates above 0.1 Gy/yr.[1] This condition is primarily known from the Kyshtym disaster, where 66 cases were diagnosed. It has received little mention in Western literature;[1] but see the ICRP’s 2012 Statement.[2]
In 2013, Alexander V. Akleyev described the chronology of the clinical course of CRS while presenting at ConRad in Munich, Germany. In his presentation, he defined the latent period as being 1-5 years, and the formation coinciding with the period of maximum radiation dose. The recovery period was described as being 3-12 months after exposure ceased. He concluded that "CRS represents a systemic response of the body as a whole to the chronic total body exposure in man."[3] In 2014, Akleyev's book "Comprehensive analysis of chronic radiation syndrome, covering epidemiology, pathogenesis, pathoanatomy, diagnosis and treatment" was published by Springer.[4]

I think perhaps if they did have radiation poisoning it was likely chronic as opposed to acute.

April 26, 2019, 09:30:55 AM
Reply #111

Clacon

Guest
Also - what do you think of Star Man's "Igor's Psychotic Breakdown Theory"?  grin1

April 26, 2019, 01:53:34 PM
Reply #112
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Quote
The Soviets were not without knowledge, they had proper procedures when dealing with Nuclear Materials.. 
How to say... not really. It's well known story how Serov https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Serov keeper an uranium sample in  a drawer.
The second reasone - USSR was ready to pay  a lives during the Cold War.  Kyshtym was not  first, it was only one complex  of industrial processing of nuclear weapon in ussr in 1959. Disaster happened. In case of "knowledges" we should have lost in the Cold War in 1959. We decided to clean contaminated area without stopping the process of production.  No one knows how many lives we gave for realization ot this decision. until  1989 we kept secret the fact of the disaster.
 Some  documents are published now. Guys, the contamination of the clothes of  soldiers who took part in the cleaning reached up to 500 000. Did we try to control? Yes. Could we? No.

If you would like to know about Kyshtym disaster better - find the Los Alamos report to CIA. It's very interesting document.

What does allegedly keeping some Uranium sample in a drawer have to do with the bigger picture  !  ?  It doesnt prove anything. And Industrial processes can be very dirty, even Nuclear ones. And it was pioneering days in the 1950's.
DB

April 26, 2019, 01:56:10 PM
Reply #113
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that any of the Dyatlov Group had any kind of Mental breakdown.
DB

April 26, 2019, 06:07:35 PM
Reply #114
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Vietnamka


According to a report sent by the Soviet authorities to the International
Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the accident in the Urals contaminated land
in the provinces of Chelyabinsk, Sverdlovsk and Tumen. The report, which
the agency has circulated, says that there were no deaths immediately after
the explosion and none which could be attributed to the accident over the
three succeeding decades.

Neither medical data collected by Soviet specialists since the accident
nor epidemiological studies have produced any evidence of significant changes
in rates of mortality or morbidity, say the Soviet authorities. Their report
also claims that there is no evidence of genetic damage as a result of the
accident. The document circulated by the IAEA says that in Chelyabinsk province,
some 40 000 hectares of the area affected by fallout is now being farmed.

April 27, 2019, 05:10:31 AM
Reply #115
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Nigel Evans


The clothes were contaminated by beta radioactive substance (may be very small gamma has not been detected).
   Nuclear weapons - plutonium or uranium with a very strong gamma radiation. Not a lot of elements has beta only
Kyshtym disaster was a explosion of of the tanks containing about 70–80 tons of liquid radioactive waste failed, with caesium-137 and strontium-90 - both beta.

Thanks for this, the Kyshtym disaster provides a very credible source for the beta contamination.

April 27, 2019, 06:12:30 AM
Reply #116
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
This is great info! Thank you!

Are we thinking then that we can MAAAAYBEEE rule out exposure to radiation occurring on the mountain that night then??

Is it reasonable to assume they didn't have the precautions, as well as the knowledge, we have now when it comes to exposure to radiation??
Wouldn't they have destroyed their contaminated clothing? Unless they didn't know or they did but were unaware of the long-term effects of exposure to low grade radiation contamination on clothing??

Well it is the Dyatlov Mystery. Iam not sure we can really rule anything out, YET. What we also need to remember is that the Soviet Union were pioneers in Nuclear Manufacturing. Accidents happen. A serious one happened in the USA, known as The Three Mile Island Accident. The Soviets were not without knowledge, they had proper procedures when dealing with Nuclear Materials. If you look at any examples of Protective Clothing from the 1950's, including from the USA, you will see rather crude looking designs, compared to todays HIGH TECH SUITS etc.

Three Mile Island had "no detectable health effects on plant workers or the public."

Our oops wasn't even 1/1,000 of an issue as either of the two major Russian catastrophic events.  The plant is still in operation.  Russia experienced two MAJOR explosions sending radioactive material into the atmosphere that spread like the wind.  They then tried to cover it up and then lied about it. 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 06:16:41 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!

April 27, 2019, 11:47:27 PM
Reply #117
Offline

cennetkusu


The most likely explanation was that the young people saw horrible images and heard voices .. and remained in fear. The question to ask here is: Why did they run out of wearing Semyon and Tibo shoes while others wore it? The reason for this was that Semyon and Tibo predicted they would suddenly be expelled from the tent ... And they had already worn their shoes and their clothes. Semyon even took his camera. He predicted that Semyon would be older than the others because he was older and mature. And warned in Tiboyu. And there was a sudden attack on the tent !!! Suddenly, the youngsters came out of the tent and started to walk towards the valley. And they all came to the tree. And they wanted to light the fire. Because they're cold. That's why they definitely have to come to the tree to light a fire. And they all wanted to go out and watch the tent. But they burned a little fire., four of them decided to make a cave in the mountain pass. The other three decided to go back to the tent. That's where superman decided to attack. I mean, when the band breaks up. From the deaths, it is understood that there was a sudden attack and that they suffered a lot during his death. And the hands look close to the heart .... This means that deaths are not sudden but not too long. Maybe between 10 and 30 seconds .... This may give us some hints about the attacker.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 05:09:07 AM by Teddy »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

April 28, 2019, 12:00:53 AM
Reply #118
Offline

cennetkusu


The reason for the young people's escape from the tent: Maybe they could not resist  pressure and stress. shock1 twitch7 huh1 This explains why they did not run away. afraid7 But this time he can't explain why they're not wearing his shoes.The sudden attack also explains why they didn't wear their shoes, but this time they can't explain why they didn't run away. dunno1
Or something that was a mixture of the two. This is the most logical approach.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 05:08:52 AM by Teddy »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.

April 28, 2019, 12:24:16 AM
Reply #119
Offline

cennetkusu


One imaginable question: Dytlov and Rustem and Zina are returning. Why Zina? A woman? Why did not Kolevatov and Tibo and Semyon return? Semyon and Tibon had shoes. Still, Zina, who has no shoes, is turning? The answer is that the group is very frightened and proves that they cannot fully use their mental abilities.      Or they thought it was not a good idea to go back to the Semyon and Tibo tent. And Kolevatov also thought like them. That's why Dytlov Rustem and Zina, who are most courageous, decided to return.                                                                                                                                                                             
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 05:09:00 AM by Teddy »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.