Simplest Possible Credible Explanation

[Loose}{Cannon]

Two fracture events?    prove it please......       I don't have the training in pathology to prove it!  It's my understanding that some pathologists think two events is the most credible cause of her injuries. It makes sense to me but i'm a layman.

Perhaps use phrases such as 'may have', 'possibly' etc. 

Or phrases like - "It's my understanding that some pathologists think ....."?   

Your original statement I referred to is this...

And the den just "happened" to be there?Or they built a den and instead of sheltering in it they went walkabout?And then they fell on top of each other such that Lyudmila received two fracture events?
OR
They were crushed in the den.
Which is simpler, more credible?

[sarapuk]

I don't think Star Man is implying the Rav 4 were killed directly by the fight - i.e. their injuries were not caused by a fight.

I think we all believe that the simplest possible credible explanation for their deaths was that they fell.

We could have a Vote then. I dont believe the injuries at the so called Ravine were caused by any kind of Fall.

[sarapuk]

But isn’t a fight that escalates into a more serious situation a simple and credible explanation?

Look at Yuri K burns - he has significant burns on both lower legs and also on his left hand.  How did he get these burns?

A person chasing him and inflicting those burns could easily explain it?

It seems possible that the person that  lit the fire could have been the person that was chasing him.  Why else would he have such significant burns from the fire?

Dyatlov is a good candidate for losing it. He has a thing for Zina and she is sharing a tent with 7 men.  The joking and possibly flirting could have triggered his temper and a fight.

Regards
Star man

Once again, there is absolutely no evidence of fighting amongst the Group. Some of the injuries could not have been caused by other Humans. There are NO Traces at the Tent of any kind of fighting.

But as you keep pointing out there is very little evidence for any of the theories so this one is in good company in that respect?  So isn’t it just as worthy as any other?

Regards
Star man

Well Iam only going by the Facts. I guess it must be down to The Jury Service I did in 2 British Courts Of Law.  It kind of makes you think that way, if you know what I mean.

[sarapuk]

What the hell is a 'superman'?

Unknown coercive and overwhelming force .... But I can say that ... My feelings are strong and my guess is that ...

Well I think thats what the Authorities may have been thinking at the time. And what has changed ?  NOTHING.  This Forum has come at this Dyatlov Mystery from every conceivable angle with no result whatsoever. So maybe we are dealing with an UNKNOWN OVERWHELMING FORCE. And that could be called a SIMPLE EXPLANATION.

For all we know this forum May have actually identified the true reason but does not have the evidence to back it up?

Unknown compelling force is just another way of saying - ok we give up “. We don’t know what happened” IMO

Regards
Star man

But the facts we have can lead one to suggest that some kind of unknown force was responsible. Its not a way out. Its a possibility.

[sarapuk]

Well I think thats what the Authorities may have been thinking at the time. And what has changed ?  NOTHING.  This Forum has come at this Dyatlov Mystery from every conceivable angle with no result whatsoever.

Not so. I've shown that the skin colour can be attributed to NO2/nitric acid. I've also shown that the ravine injuries are consistent with crushing whilst in the den. Afaik they are both firsts. These two then provide a complete answer to the DPI, ball lightning or military activity or perhaps a combination. There are other narratives of course, the main question now is determining their probability.

You have put forward theories. You have not given us a result.

[Star man]

The cause of the burns was probably the superman attack. 2 Yuri was with the fire. Superman attacked. At that moment 2 Yuri fell on the fire. And there were various burns. Yuri K. bit his finger from the pain of these specs. And then his friends came and took their clothes. And they took them by the fire and put them side by side. And they made caves in the snow. And Superman killed three young men on the hillside. Then he came and killed four youngsters in the cave. Young people have acted very boldly ... they did their best. A normal person could go crazy in these circumstances ...

I take it that the superman you talk about isn’t the “Christopher Reeves" type?  It’s more like some kind of evil supernatural entity that has selected the group for death?

Regards
Star man

[sarapuk]

I am not a pathologist but the rib injuries can be examined from a purely mechanical perspective.  Bones have material properties that are defined. 

The injuries reflect a massive high speed impact such as a fall.  They are inconsistent with a slow crush.

I have posted details of this under “low yield nuke “ sorry but difficult to create and post links on my tiny phone.

A fall is the simple most credible explanation for the injuries,

Regards
Star man

Are you sure of your statement regarding the Rib Injuries  !  ?  Why do you think that they are inconsistent with a slow crush  !  ? 

[Star man]

Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

Two fracture events?    prove it please......       I don't have the training in pathology to prove it!  It's my understanding that some pathologists think two events is the most credible cause of her injuries. It makes sense to me but i'm a layman.

Perhaps use phrases such as 'may have', 'possibly' etc. 

Or phrases like - "It's my understanding that some pathologists think ....."?   

Your original statement I referred to is this...

And the den just "happened" to be there?Or they built a den and instead of sheltering in it they went walkabout?And then they fell on top of each other such that Lyudmila received two fracture events?
OR
They were crushed in the den.
Which is simpler, more credible?

Ok, i accept your point.

[Nigel Evans]

Well I think thats what the Authorities may have been thinking at the time. And what has changed ?  NOTHING.  This Forum has come at this Dyatlov Mystery from every conceivable angle with no result whatsoever.

Not so. I've shown that the skin colour can be attributed to NO2/nitric acid. I've also shown that the ravine injuries are consistent with crushing whilst in the den. Afaik they are both firsts. These two then provide a complete answer to the DPI, ball lightning or military activity or perhaps a combination. There are other narratives of course, the main question now is determining their probability.

You have put forward theories. You have not given us a result.

Only the Russian government can give us a result and that would probably be a false one... 

[Nigel Evans]

Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

The front of a tracked vehicle falling into a crater would be fast enough i think.

[Clacon]

I completely agree with Star Man - a fall is the SIMPLEST possible explanation for the Rav4's injuries.

A crushing force would imply something would have had to have crushed them - which is not SIMPLE at all. It just makes the narrative far more complicated than it has to be.

[Clacon]

I mean the coroner does say "These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb."

But no one on the forum really agrees with that because there are no burns on trees blah blah blah....

So my vote is FALL

[Nigel Evans]

I mean the coroner does say "These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb."

But no one on the forum really agrees with that because there are no burns on trees blah blah blah....

So my vote is FALL

Ball lightning could explode without any great heat?

[Star man]

Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

The front of a tracked vehicle falling into a crater would be fast enough i think.

Yes it possibly would be fast enough, but how much force would it exhurt on the body?  How far does it fall?  What is its mass?  Without even answering those question I would expect there to have been other serious injuries such as:

Significant internal injuries to organs - ruptured spleens, pancreas, etc


Thibo's head injury appears to be an impact at one point on his skull by hard but relatively blunt object.  If there was a crushing force from a tracked vehicle I would expect the damage to have been even worse

Regards

Star man

[Star man]

I mean the coroner does say "These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb."

But no one on the forum really agrees with that because there are no burns on trees blah blah blah....

So my vote is FALL

Hi Clacon,

Just to add some further substance to your above claim.  A compressive force such as a shock wave would also cause any person standing up to be thrown horizontally.  The force required to cause the injuries would be capable of throwing said person up to 50 metres.  So you would expect to see additional and significant injuries and lacerations which we don't see in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man

[Loose}{Cannon]

Hell, with that scale of an explosion, you would have a permanent crater.   

[Loose}{Cannon]

From my military experience, no tracked or wheeled vehicle would last 2 seconds in the bottom of that ravine.

[cennetkusu]

The cause of the burns was probably the superman attack. 2 Yuri was with the fire. Superman attacked. At that moment 2 Yuri fell on the fire. And there were various burns. Yuri K. bit his finger from the pain of these specs. And then his friends came and took their clothes. And they took them by the fire and put them side by side. And they made caves in the snow. And Superman killed three young men on the hillside. Then he came and killed four youngsters in the cave. Young people have acted very boldly ... they did their best. A normal person could go crazy in these circumstances ...

I take it that the superman you talk about isn’t the “Christopher Reeves" type?  It’s more like some kind of evil supernatural entity that has selected the group for death?

Regards
Star man

No Superman is not bad. Bundan emin olabilirsiniz.If it were bad it could not have power. God wouldn't let that happen. He must have won this strength well and hard working. Or he cannot have that power as nothing bad. Killing young people is not about wanting to do them evil. You can take them to the side or to get to another dimension. Superman is not a god but a very strong being.

[cennetkusu]

It is very certain that the rib fractures are caused by shock waves from Supermandan. If it were made up of a bomb, there would not be only two people, and the young people would have been scattered around and not next to each other. Look at the young people !!! They are lined up and Dubinina is also very close to them !!! So a bomb cannot be a missile or a tracked vehicle. So they're not dead by any accident. Superman may have pulled his arms and opened the palms again and pushed them quickly towards the chest. There may have been a high pressure. This pressure broke the ribs on the chest. !!! It has been very fast and strong !!! Then he cut his tongue out. It may be the result of being so frightened that their skin is orange (?) Her hair may be whitened again due to great fear and stress.

[Nigel Evans]

Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

The front of a tracked vehicle falling into a crater would be fast enough i think.

Yes it possibly would be fast enough, but how much force would it exhurt on the body?  How far does it fall?  What is its mass?  Without even answering those question I would expect there to have been other serious injuries such as:

Significant internal injuries to organs - ruptured spleens, pancreas, etc


Thibo's head injury appears to be an impact at one point on his skull by hard but relatively blunt object.  If there was a crushing force from a tracked vehicle I would expect the damage to have been even worse

Regards

Star man

Not if it is solely applied across a 30 cm width across the upper torso through say 1-2ft of snow, there wouldn't be any damage to the soft organs other than the throat. But to hoist you by your own argument.... How does falling not result in soft organ damage, burst spleen etc?

[Nigel Evans]

From my military experience, no tracked or wheeled vehicle would last 2 seconds in the bottom of that ravine.

But if it was 4m deep in snow?

[gypsy]

From my military experience, no tracked or wheeled vehicle would last 2 seconds in the bottom of that ravine.

But if it was 4m deep in snow?

To my knowledge, the military would prefer to reach such a remote area by helicopter rather than a tracked vehicle which would have been slow and would have left too many traces. A person (or more) falling from a helicopter can easily sustain most of the injuries considering one can hit something or someone on the ground. The snow and clothes would eliminate the external injuries to an extent.

[Nigel Evans]

From my military experience, no tracked or wheeled vehicle would last 2 seconds in the bottom of that ravine.

But if it was 4m deep in snow?

To my knowledge, the military would prefer to reach such a remote area by helicopter rather than a tracked vehicle which would have been slow and would have left too many traces. A person (or more) falling from a helicopter can easily sustain most of the injuries considering one can hit something or someone on the ground. The snow and clothes would eliminate the external injuries to an extent.

The tracked vehicle theory assumes that it was transported to the location by helicopter, perhaps a Mi-6 - payload = 12 tonnes.

The alternative mechanism for crushing is a ball lightning roller of course. - http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html


Imo the falling theory has a major problem which there being no detected internal organ damage, multiple ribs snapped but spleens ok?. The only injuries are broken bones and internal bleeding. And this is after you've got over the lack of limb fractures and external bruising which makes it improbable to begin with. Nicolai's skull suffered sufficient trauma (split across the base) that it was permanently misshaped. From a fall with no other injuries? Not really. Crushing through a layer of snow is a much better fit.

[Clacon]

But Nigel - your argument against a fall is mine against being crushed by a tracked vehicle - no internal injuries? No damage to spleen? No damage to limbs? From a tracked vehicle running over 3 human bodies with a few metres of snow to take most of the force?? Its like the vehicle picked and chose areas of the body to crush and which to leave perfectly intact.

And I know you're going to say the force was not applied equally because of the snow layer, how they were lying, the fact that the surface area of their exposed bodies was smaller than the tracks (I don't really know how to explain this concept in my head but it has to do with positions of bodies and points of contact as the tracks rolled over the bodies - obviously not going to be uniform) BUT I actually think your ball lightning theory is more plausible.   

Anyway was going thru the autopsy reports and found this:

Nikolai:
"In the area of ​​the right shoulder on the anterior-internal surface - a spilled bruise 10x12 cm greenish-blue in color at the middle and lower third. In the area of ​​bruising hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissue."

Kolevatov:
"In the region of the left knee joint, on the inner surface, diffuse hemorrhage into the underlying tissues."

Dubinina:
"On the outer and anterior surface of the left thigh, in the middle third, the diffuse bruise is cyanotic-lilac in a 10 x 5 cm section with a hemorrhage into the thickness of the skin.
In places of fracture of the ribs there are diffuse hemorrhages in the intercostal muscles.
In the area of ​​the sternum hand on the right a diffuse hemorrhage."

Semyon:
"After the extraction of the organocomplex from the thoracic and abdominal cavity, the II, III, IV, Y, YI ribs on the right are determined along the okologo-ore and mid-axillary line with hemorrhage into the adjacent intercostal muscles."

I mean its not much, but it proves that the bodies were not WITHOUT bruising (hemorrhaging), riiiiight? This gives ammunition to the fall and shock wave theories - although, I'm sure Star Man would say they are not significant enough for the shock wave theory.

[Nigel Evans]

But Nigel - your argument against a fall is mine against being crushed by a tracked vehicle - no internal injuries? No damage to spleen? No damage to limbs? From a tracked vehicle running over 3 human bodies with a few metres of snow to take most of the force?? Its like the vehicle picked and chose areas of the body to crush and which to leave perfectly intact.

And I know you're going to say the force was not applied equally because of the snow layer, how they were lying, the fact that the surface area of their exposed bodies was smaller than the tracks (I don't really know how to explain this concept in my head but it has to do with positions of bodies and points of contact as the tracks rolled over the bodies - obviously not going to be uniform) BUT I actually think your ball lightning theory is more plausible.   

Anyway was going thru the autopsy reports and found this:

Nikolai:
"In the area of ​​the right shoulder on the anterior-internal surface - a spilled bruise 10x12 cm greenish-blue in color at the middle and lower third. In the area of ​​bruising hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissue."

Kolevatov:
"In the region of the left knee joint, on the inner surface, diffuse hemorrhage into the underlying tissues."

Dubinina:
"On the outer and anterior surface of the left thigh, in the middle third, the diffuse bruise is cyanotic-lilac in a 10 x 5 cm section with a hemorrhage into the thickness of the skin.
In places of fracture of the ribs there are diffuse hemorrhages in the intercostal muscles.
In the area of ​​the sternum hand on the right a diffuse hemorrhage."

Semyon:
"After the extraction of the organocomplex from the thoracic and abdominal cavity, the II, III, IV, Y, YI ribs on the right are determined along the okologo-ore and mid-axillary line with hemorrhage into the adjacent intercostal muscles."

I mean its not much, but it proves that the bodies were not WITHOUT bruising (hemorrhaging), riiiiight? This gives ammunition to the fall and shock wave theories - although, I'm sure Star Man would say they are not significant enough for the shock wave theory.

Glad you like the BL theory! 
But you're doing a very good impression of not reading the detail of my thread? - http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.0
Those injuries make the case for something extremely heavy traversing the den  across say a 30cm width? Which is the typical width of a many tracked vehicles....
How about this for a narrative :-It is Feb 1, 1959. Gary Powers will be shot down in just over a year. So the Soviets are testing their new high altitude SAM - SA-75 which uses red nitric acid as fuel for the second stage. But where are these spent missiles to land to avoid civilian injury or death and to ensure absolute secrecy? How about the Urals? How about Dead mountain? Nice and remote and the super, ultra top secret project can stay that way by flying in (with our brand new Mil Mi6) one or more tracked vehicles to collect the debris. These vehicles equipped with the means of hiding their tracks to retain absolute secrecy. Seems a good fit?

[Clacon]

Do I have to read the thread to find out how they mask their tracks?

Apologies - I'm a lazy detective. 

[Nigel Evans]

Do I have to read the thread to find out how they mask their tracks?

Apologies - I'm a lazy detective. 

Nothing wrong with being lazy. 


How about dragging a machine like a snow plough that throws the top layer of snow into the air. Or a separate vehicle.

[Star man]

Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

The front of a tracked vehicle falling into a crater would be fast enough i think.

Yes it possibly would be fast enough, but how much force would it exhurt on the body?  How far does it fall?  What is its mass?  Without even answering those question I would expect there to have been other serious injuries such as:

Significant internal injuries to organs - ruptured spleens, pancreas, etc


Thibo's head injury appears to be an impact at one point on his skull by hard but relatively blunt object.  If there was a crushing force from a tracked vehicle I would expect the damage to have been even worse

Regards

Star man

Not if it is solely applied across a 30 cm width across the upper torso through say 1-2ft of snow, there wouldn't be any damage to the soft organs other than the throat. But to hoist you by your own argument.... How does falling not result in soft organ damage, burst spleen etc?

Falling probably can result in organ damage - depending on the fall height.  But in the two cases being discussed, the forces involved and geometric shape changes.  Ie deformation if the shape of the body is likely to be considerably different.

A fall from 4 to 5 metres would be enough to cause the injuries.  A high speed impact resulting in about 2.5 tonnes of force over a second or so.

The force from a military vehicle falling on you is going to be much higher than this and would more damage

What is the mass of the vehicle?
How far does it fall?
What is the depth of the snow?

Regards

Star man

[sarapuk]

Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.