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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Simplest Possible Credible Explanation  (Read 51678 times)

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May 02, 2019, 01:16:00 PM
Reply #180
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It is very certain that the rib fractures are caused by shock waves from Supermandan. If it were made up of a bomb, there would not be only two people, and the young people would have been scattered around and not next to each other. Look at the young people !!! They are lined up and Dubinina is also very close to them !!! So a bomb cannot be a missile or a tracked vehicle. So they're not dead by any accident. Superman may have pulled his arms and opened the palms again and pushed them quickly towards the chest. There may have been a high pressure. This pressure broke the ribs on the chest. !!! It has been very fast and strong !!! Then he cut his tongue out. It may be the result of being so frightened that their skin is orange (?) Her hair may be whitened again due to great fear and stress.

Are you saying that this SUPERMAN theory is not deliberately killing the Dyatlov Group  !  ? 
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:53:51 AM by Teddy »
DB
 

May 02, 2019, 01:17:48 PM
Reply #181
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
From my military experience, no tracked or wheeled vehicle would last 2 seconds in the bottom of that ravine.
But if it was 4m deep in snow?

To my knowledge, the military would prefer to reach such a remote area by helicopter rather than a tracked vehicle which would have been slow and would have left too many traces. A person (or more) falling from a helicopter can easily sustain most of the injuries considering one can hit something or someone on the ground. The snow and clothes would eliminate the external injuries to an extent.

The tracked vehicle theory assumes that it was transported to the location by helicopter, perhaps a Mi-6 - payload = 12 tonnes.

The alternative mechanism for crushing is a ball lightning roller of course. - http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html


Imo the falling theory has a major problem which there being no detected internal organ damage, multiple ribs snapped but spleens ok?. The only injuries are broken bones and internal bleeding. And this is after you've got over the lack of limb fractures and external bruising which makes it improbable to begin with. Nicolai's skull suffered sufficient trauma (split across the base) that it was permanently misshaped. From a fall with no other injuries? Not really. Crushing through a layer of snow is a much better fit.

Or CRUSHING by something else  !  ? 
DB
 

May 02, 2019, 01:38:47 PM
Reply #182
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Nigel Evans


From my military experience, no tracked or wheeled vehicle would last 2 seconds in the bottom of that ravine.
But if it was 4m deep in snow?

To my knowledge, the military would prefer to reach such a remote area by helicopter rather than a tracked vehicle which would have been slow and would have left too many traces. A person (or more) falling from a helicopter can easily sustain most of the injuries considering one can hit something or someone on the ground. The snow and clothes would eliminate the external injuries to an extent.

The tracked vehicle theory assumes that it was transported to the location by helicopter, perhaps a Mi-6 - payload = 12 tonnes.

The alternative mechanism for crushing is a ball lightning roller of course. - http://www.ball-lightning.info/Ball-lightning/Roller.html


Imo the falling theory has a major problem which there being no detected internal organ damage, multiple ribs snapped but spleens ok?. The only injuries are broken bones and internal bleeding. And this is after you've got over the lack of limb fractures and external bruising which makes it improbable to begin with. Nicolai's skull suffered sufficient trauma (split across the base) that it was permanently misshaped. From a fall with no other injuries? Not really. Crushing through a layer of snow is a much better fit.

Or CRUSHING by something else  !  ?
Crushed by anything with a mass measured in tonnes and whose footprint was approximately 30cm across and traveled in a straight line....

An elephant doing dolly steps?  neg1
 

May 02, 2019, 01:54:38 PM
Reply #183

Clacon

Guest
Sarapuk - what are you suggesting crushed them?

Buuuuutttt Nigellll....wouldn't the vehicle that was covering up the tracks make some sort of imprint in the snow too??



 

May 02, 2019, 02:08:59 PM
Reply #184
Offline

Nigel Evans


Sarapuk - what are you suggesting crushed them?

Buuuuutttt Nigellll....wouldn't the vehicle that was covering up the tracks make some sort of imprint in the snow too??
Hey you're a Canadian? and you're asking a Brit about snow blowers? - https://www.woodmaxx.com/SB_72_PTO_WoodMaxx_Snow_Blower_p/sb-72.htm

What is the world coming to he sighs.... dance1
 

May 02, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Reply #185

Clacon

Guest
Lol - actually South African and moved here.....but long ago enough I should know how to use one! :)

I'm....gonna go with....global warming??? (Not enough snow for snow blowing) LOL


AND....we all know....I'm lazy
 

May 02, 2019, 03:23:28 PM
Reply #186
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.

A kick would leave more obvious markes and probably would not cause the number of straight line fractures in this case.

Crushing is likely to cause damage to internal organs, which is not reported in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man
 

May 02, 2019, 03:41:48 PM
Reply #187
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Sarapuk - what are you suggesting crushed them?

Buuuuutttt Nigellll....wouldn't the vehicle that was covering up the tracks make some sort of imprint in the snow too??

Iam suggesting that Dubinina's chest injury could have been the result of crushing by something or a blow from something.  I would have thought that a fall would have caused injury to flesh and muscle as well as the ribs. An animal of some kind could cause such a chest injury without causing skin or muscle injury.  The car crash reference is most popular probably because of the large number of car crashes in the World.
Wouldnt any kind of heavy vehicle make a bit of a mess of flesh and muscle  And wouldnt such heavy vehicles leave many traces, including OIL. As for an heavy vehicle pressing the snow down on the 4 in the ravine, that just doesnt fit with the location of the bodies in the ravine and the types of injuries.
DB
 

May 02, 2019, 03:51:05 PM
Reply #188
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.

A kick would leave more obvious markes and probably would not cause the number of straight line fractures in this case.

Crushing is likely to cause damage to internal organs, which is not reported in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man

It would depend on what type of ANIMAL kicked and how they kicked.
It would depend on what type of ENTITY crushed Dubinina.
DB
 

May 02, 2019, 07:16:31 PM
Reply #189
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Laff...

I have also been hit by a car TWICE.  The first time, the car was traveling 60mph and I jumped at the last moment as to not go under the car. I came out of it with a shattered ankle. The second time, the car was traveling about 40mph, my head went through the windshield, but all I had was sore bruises.    nose1

So if we gonna play the "cannot get these injuries from a fall" game.... Then lets also play the "cannot get these injuries from a car impact" game.   
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

May 02, 2019, 07:33:50 PM
Reply #190
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
Head and chest trauma were common causes of death.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6440619

 Ya Think!?  lol1
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

May 03, 2019, 02:05:31 AM
Reply #191
Offline

Nigel Evans


Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.

A kick would leave more obvious markes and probably would not cause the number of straight line fractures in this case.

Crushing is likely to cause damage to internal organs, which is not reported in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man
Not if it is limited by extent and duration.
 

May 03, 2019, 02:17:34 AM
Reply #192
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Laff...

I have also been hit by a car TWICE.  The first time, the car was traveling 60mph and I jumped at the last moment as to not go under the car. I came out of it with a shattered ankle. The second time, the car was traveling about 40mph, my head went through the windshield, but all I had was sore bruises.    nose1

So if we gonna play the "cannot get these injuries from a fall" game.... Then lets also play the "cannot get these injuries from a car impact" game.

Just to add some context - the flail chest injuries are usually received by the people driving the cars, or in the passenger seats when a car comes to a sudden stop, rather than a pedestrian hit by a car.

Regards

Star man
 

May 03, 2019, 02:42:49 AM
Reply #193
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.

A kick would leave more obvious markes and probably would not cause the number of straight line fractures in this case.

Crushing is likely to cause damage to internal organs, which is not reported in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man
Not if it is limited by extent and duration.

A vehicle driving over in the ravine is unlikely to have been travelling very fast.  Maybe several mph? 

If you look at falls vs crush and ask what is the main difference:

Falls

1.  Fall is usually high speed
2. Fall energy is limited to the mass of the person and their speed of fall

A fall from 4 to 5 metres delivers enough force and energy to cause the chest injuries of the rav 4 it equates roughly to about 27kJ


Crush

1.  Crush can be fast or slow
2. Crush energy is limited to the mass of the crushing object and the speed of motion in the direction of crush
3.  Crush energy can also be based on powered crushing.  E.g hydraulic systems etc
4. The effect of snow depth can be easily calculated

So how much energy is involved with a military vehicle driving over them?

What is its mass?

What is depth of snow?

How far does the vehicle move vertically downwards when it hits the den?

Let's consider the difference in the energy of a fall vs a vehicle crush and find out if it tells us anything

Regards

Star man
 

May 03, 2019, 04:03:46 AM
Reply #194
Offline

Nigel Evans


Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.

A kick would leave more obvious markes and probably would not cause the number of straight line fractures in this case.

Crushing is likely to cause damage to internal organs, which is not reported in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man
Not if it is limited by extent and duration.

A vehicle driving over in the ravine is unlikely to have been travelling very fast.  Maybe several mph? 
Not if the vehicle was descending and the driver knew the route having been there before on previous exercises. 0 - 20mph?

If you look at falls vs crush and ask what is the main difference:

Falls

1.  Fall is usually high speedYes and with a very abrupt deceleration! So where is the soft organ damage? Stunt men have to have their spleens removed in order to survive the deceleration from falls that DO NOT break their ribs.... Lyudmila demonstrates catastrophic rib fractures with no signs of any soft organ damage. I would need a pathologist to explain to me how her rib cage could fracture like that from a fall and not damage internal organs particularly the spleen.
2. Fall energy is limited to the mass of the person and their speed of fall

A fall from 4 to 5 metres delivers enough force and energy to cause the chest injuries of the rav 4 it equates roughly to about 27kJNot three large fractures of a young female's rib cage. Maybe multiple impacts (people landing on top of her) but i don't see that injury profile from a single fall.


Crush

1.  Crush can be fast or slow
2. Crush energy is limited to the mass of the crushing object and the speed of motion in the direction of crush
3.  Crush energy can also be based on powered crushing.  E.g hydraulic systems etc
4. The effect of snow depth can be easily calculatedI don't see that. Snow density is highly variable and the collapse of the roof and walls would make the density more variable. I have a memory of WAB stating that the snow density when measured was 300-400kg / m3{Small correction: From memory WAB gave a figure that was between 300-400kg}

So how much energy is involved with a military vehicle driving over them?

What is its mass?We don't know but tonnes.

What is depth of snow?I'd guess at a metre. But we don't know. The key variable here is that the depth allows limited crushing of the rib cages without squashing them. Rib cages are deformed and crack but not flattened. A skull lying between two rib cages is badly cracked but protected somewhat.

How far does the vehicle move vertically downwards when it hits the den?With the roof collapse and snow compression it could be up to 1m.

Let's consider the difference in the energy of a fall vs a vehicle crush and find out if it tells us anythingI don't see the case for the task. The variables can obviously be massaged to fit any perspective. What i think is important is fitting the injury profile to the scenario. Heads and chests cracked by a crushing force of limited depth, width and duration = yes. Heads and chests cracked by falling with no limb injuries and no soft organ damage = no.


Regards

Star man
« Last Edit: May 03, 2019, 04:46:52 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

May 03, 2019, 05:11:39 AM
Reply #195
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Nigel Evans


https://www.msdmanuals.com/en-gb/home/injuries-and-poisoning/chest-injuries/rib-fractures"The more ribs that are broken, the more likely lungs or other organs are to be damaged.""Usually, a blow strong enough to cause flail chest also bruises the lung beneath the injured area (see Pulmonary Contusion)."
 

May 03, 2019, 06:35:33 AM
Reply #196
Offline

gypsy


What the hell is a 'superman'?
Unknown coercive and overwhelming force .... But I can say that ... My feelings are strong and my guess is that ...

Well I think thats what the Authorities may have been thinking at the time. And what has changed ?  NOTHING.  This Forum has come at this Dyatlov Mystery from every conceivable angle with no result whatsoever. So maybe we are dealing with an UNKNOWN OVERWHELMING FORCE. And that could be called a SIMPLE EXPLANATION.

That is not even an explanation.
 

May 03, 2019, 07:39:21 AM
Reply #197

Clacon

Guest
"A fall from 4 to 5 metres delivers enough force and energy to cause the chest injuries of the rav 4 it equates roughly to about 27kJ"
"Not three large fractures of a young female's rib cage. Maybe multiple impacts (people landing on top of her) but i don't see that injury profile from a single fall."

What if they did fall on top of each other? It was dark, they were probably walking in a line behind each other and the snow gave way because of the water running underneath creating a weak spot?


"The more ribs that are broken, the more likely lungs or other organs are to be damaged." "Usually, a blow strong enough to cause flail chest also bruises the lung beneath the injured area"

Dubinina:
In places of fracture of the ribs there are diffuse hemorrhages in the intercostal muscles.
In the area of ​​the sternum hand on the right a diffuse hemorrhage.
Heart size 12 x 4 x 5. In the region of the right ventricle of an irregular oval shape, a hemorrhage of 4 x 4 cm, with diffuse impregnation of the right ventricular muscle.

"Intercostal muscles are several groups of muscles that run between the ribs, and help form and move the chest wall, which protect the lungs."

Semyon:
"After the extraction of the organocomplex from the thoracic and abdominal cavity, the II, III, IV, Y, YI ribs on the right are determined along the okologo-ore and mid-axillary line with hemorrhage into the adjacent intercostal muscles."
"multiple fractures of the ribs on the right with internal bleeding into the pleural cavity in the presence of a low temperature effect".

"The pleural cavity is the thin fluid-filled space between the two pulmonary pleurae of each lung."


So there were bruises to the lungs (pleural cavity) and intercostal muscles, which sit over top the lungs.

"The spleen is located under the ribcage and above the stomach in the left upper quadrant of the abdomen. It usually lies between the 9th and 11th ribs".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Costillas.png/180px-Costillas.png

It looks as if the spleen sits below the area of damage seen in Dubinina and Semyon' ribs. Dubinina's fractures are on the left side, but only her 7th rib and those above was fractured, not those below.

Nikolai:
"crushed fracture in the region of the crest and base of the skull, with a profuse hemorrhage to the brain membranes and to the brain substance"

And so there were bruises to Nikolai's brain, (which underlies the skull) too.
 

May 03, 2019, 08:08:27 AM
Reply #198
Offline

cennetkusu


What the hell is a 'superman'?
Unknown coercive and overwhelming force.... But I can say that ... My feelings are strong and my guess is that ...

Well I think thats what the Authorities may have been thinking at the time. And what has changed ?  NOTHING.  This Forum has come at this Dyatlov Mystery from every conceivable angle with no result whatsoever. So maybe we are dealing with an UNKNOWN OVERWHELMING FORCE. And that could be called a SIMPLE EXPLANATION.

That is not even an explanation.
This is the most logical explanation for this event .... All other explanations are ridiculous and unscrupulous and imaginative and unreasonable.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:52:50 AM by Teddy »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.
 

May 03, 2019, 08:18:50 AM
Reply #199
Offline

cennetkusu


It is very certain that the rib fractures are caused by shock waves from Supermandan. If it were made up of a bomb, there would not be only two people, and the young people would have been scattered around and not next to each other. Look at the young people !!! They are lined up and Dubinina is also very close to them !!! So a bomb cannot be a missile or a tracked vehicle. So they're not dead by any accident. Superman may have pulled his arms and opened the palms again and pushed them quickly towards the chest. There may have been a high pressure. This pressure broke the ribs on the chest. !!! It has been very fast and strong !!! Then he cut his tongue out. It may be the result of being so frightened that their skin is orange (?) Her hair may be whitened again due to great fear and stress.

Are you saying that this SUPERMAN theory is not deliberately killing the Dyatlov Group  !  ?

I don't fully understand what you're asking, but Superman has deliberately and deliberately killed young people. I'm pretty sure it's a lot ahead of time. He saw them differently from other people and wanted to kill them. And I think it's not just about them, it must be killing many people in the world. His favorite works were .....
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:51:57 AM by Teddy »
You're alone and desperate. Connect with God, you won't be alone and you're a saint.
 

May 03, 2019, 08:33:16 AM
Reply #200
Offline

Nigel Evans


"A fall from 4 to 5 metres delivers enough force and energy to cause the chest injuries of the rav 4 it equates roughly to about 27kJ"
"Not three large fractures of a young female's rib cage. Maybe multiple impacts (people landing on top of her) but i don't see that injury profile from a single fall."

What if they did fall on top of each other? It was dark, they were probably walking in a line behind each other and the snow gave way because of the water running underneath creating a weak spot?


"The more ribs that are broken, the more likely lungs or other organs are to be damaged." "Usually, a blow strong enough to cause flail chest also bruises the lung beneath the injured area"

Dubinina:
In places of fracture of the ribs there are diffuse hemorrhages in the intercostal muscles.
In the area of ​​the sternum hand on the right a diffuse hemorrhage.
Heart size 12 x 4 x 5. In the region of the right ventricle of an irregular oval shape, a hemorrhage of 4 x 4 cm, with diffuse impregnation of the right ventricular muscle.

"Intercostal muscles are several groups of muscles that run between the ribs, and help form and move the chest wall, which protect the lungs."

Semyon:
"After the extraction of the organocomplex from the thoracic and abdominal cavity, the II, III, IV, Y, YI ribs on the right are determined along the okologo-ore and mid-axillary line with hemorrhage into the adjacent intercostal muscles."
"multiple fractures of the ribs on the right with internal bleeding into the pleural cavity in the presence of a low temperature effect".

"The pleural cavity is the thin fluid-filled space between the two pulmonary pleurae of each lung."


So there were bruises to the lungs (pleural cavity) and intercostal muscles, which sit over top the lungs.

"The spleen is located under the ribcage and above the stomach in the left upper quadrant of the abdomen. It usually lies between the 9th and 11th ribs".

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/27/Costillas.png/180px-Costillas.png

It looks as if the spleen sits below the area of damage seen in Dubinina and Semyon' ribs. Dubinina's fractures are on the left side, but only her 7th rib and those above was fractured, not those below.

Nikolai:
"crushed fracture in the region of the crest and base of the skull, with a profuse hemorrhage to the brain membranes and to the brain substance"

And so there were bruises to Nikolai's brain, (which underlies the skull) too.
Well i'm not a forensic pathologist but even with my limited skills i would expect Nicolai's skull fractures to result in brain hemorrhage whatever the cause, so your point has no value?  kewl1
For Lyudmila and Semyon i would have to defer to the experts, but i note that the pathologist does not use the word "hemorrhage" on the lungs. The intercostals would be expected to be damaged from travelling sharp bone causing internal bleeding?
 

May 03, 2019, 09:20:42 AM
Reply #201

Clacon

Guest
Okay but he said ""multiple fractures of the ribs on the right with internal bleeding into the pleural cavity" (Semyon)
AND the "pleural cavity" IS  ESSENTIALLY the lungs.

"The pleural cavity is the thin fluid-filled space between the two pulmonary pleurae of each lung."

Bruise: A bruise, also known as a contusion, is a type of hematoma of tissue in which capillaries are damaged by trauma, causing a localized internal bleeding that extravasate into the surrounding interstitial tissues.

Hemorrhage: an escape of blood from a ruptured blood vessel, especially when profuse. Bleeding into the spleen or liver are examples of internal hemorrhage.

Can we agree that's what he meant?? For the love of God??

You said "So where is the soft organ damage? Stunt men have to have their spleens removed in order to survive the deceleration from falls that DO NOT break their ribs.... Lyudmila demonstrates catastrophic rib fractures with no signs of any soft organ damage."

The brain comment was obvious, yes, but it proves the point that there was bruising to underlying SOFT ORGANS/TISSUE (I would say the brain is soft???).

Intercostal muscles are not soft organs, they are muscle (which is a type of tissue...so are organs, all comprised of cells...) but they were bruised in both Lyuda and Semyon. That must count for something!!

There was internal bleeding (which I have proved is essentially a hemorrhage or bruise) into the pleural cavity, which is a fluid lining around the lungs, so for all intents and purposes... the lungs, which are soft organs.

And what do you think of my "spleen" argument???


 

May 03, 2019, 10:15:30 AM
Reply #202
Offline

Nigel Evans


Okay but he said ""multiple fractures of the ribs on the right with internal bleeding into the pleural cavity" (Semyon)
AND the "pleural cavity" IS  ESSENTIALLY the lungs.
"The pleural cavity is the thin fluid-filled space between the two pulmonary pleurae of each lung."

Bruise: A bruise, also known as a contusion, is a type of hematoma of tissue in which capillaries are damaged by trauma, causing a localized internal bleeding that extravasate into the surrounding interstitial tissues.

Hemorrhage: an escape of blood from a ruptured blood vessel, especially when profuse. Bleeding into the spleen or liver are examples of internal hemorrhage.

Can we agree that's what he meant?? For the love of God??

You said "So where is the soft organ damage? Stunt men have to have their spleens removed in order to survive the deceleration from falls that DO NOT break their ribs.... Lyudmila demonstrates catastrophic rib fractures with no signs of any soft organ damage."

The brain comment was obvious, yes, but it proves the point that there was bruising to underlying SOFT ORGANS/TISSUE (I would say the brain is soft???).

Intercostal muscles are not soft organs, they are muscle (which is a type of tissue...so are organs, all comprised of cells...) but they were bruised in both Lyuda and Semyon. That must count for something!!

There was internal bleeding (which I have proved is essentially a hemorrhage or bruise) into the pleural cavity, which is a fluid lining around the lungs, so for all intents and purposes... the lungs, which are soft organs.

And what do you think of my "spleen" argument???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hemothorax#Traumatic"Injuries often cause the rupture of small blood vessels such as those found between the ribs. However, if larger blood vessels such as the aorta are damaged, the blood loss can be massive."So fractured ribs tear small blood vessels which bleed into the pleural cavity... And no mention of trauma to the lungs...
Your spleen argument is that a burst spleen requires lower rib fractures? I don't think so. My argument is that rapid deceleration (like in car accidents or even movie stunts) results in trauma to soft organs. Three bodies with massive fractures but no soft organ trauma? It was crushing...

 

May 03, 2019, 11:05:22 AM
Reply #203
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.

A kick would leave more obvious markes and probably would not cause the number of straight line fractures in this case.

Crushing is likely to cause damage to internal organs, which is not reported in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man
Not if it is limited by extent and duration.

A vehicle driving over in the ravine is unlikely to have been travelling very fast.  Maybe several mph? 

If you look at falls vs crush and ask what is the main difference:

Falls

1.  Fall is usually high speed
2. Fall energy is limited to the mass of the person and their speed of fall

A fall from 4 to 5 metres delivers enough force and energy to cause the chest injuries of the rav 4 it equates roughly to about 27kJ


Crush

1.  Crush can be fast or slow
2. Crush energy is limited to the mass of the crushing object and the speed of motion in the direction of crush
3.  Crush energy can also be based on powered crushing.  E.g hydraulic systems etc
4. The effect of snow depth can be easily calculated

So how much energy is involved with a military vehicle driving over them?

What is its mass?

What is depth of snow?

How far does the vehicle move vertically downwards when it hits the den?

Let's consider the difference in the energy of a fall vs a vehicle crush and find out if it tells us anything

Regards

Star man

Minor amendment to above post.  It's the force that's 27K newtons rather than KJoules

Energy is only about 3 KJoules

Regards
Star man
 

May 03, 2019, 11:11:09 AM
Reply #204
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
A vehicle that weighs 2 tonnes with 1 tonnes on each set of tracks or wheels under 1 metre of snow would result in simular  injuries to those observed.  Anything heavier would result in much more significant injuries.  4 tonnes for instance would squish them good.

Regards

Star man
 

May 03, 2019, 12:26:15 PM
Reply #205
Offline

Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Seems to me they in fact had internal injuries.

Also, 2 tons isn't exactly a military vehicle....  its the weight of an average car. 
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

May 03, 2019, 12:54:05 PM
Reply #206
Offline

Nigel Evans


Seems to me they in fact had internal injuries.
Care to detail them?

Also, 2 tons isn't exactly a military vehicle....  its the weight of an average car.

Could be more could less, could be ........ -
 

May 03, 2019, 01:18:07 PM
Reply #207

Clacon

Guest
Ummm....when do you think that model in the video was made???

We're talking 1959 here!!
 

May 03, 2019, 01:24:36 PM
Reply #208
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Flail chest is consistent with high speed impact.  They are most common in car accidents.  A double fracture of the ribs on the same side requires the bone to bend rapidly beyond its yield stress at more than one point.  A slow compression causes the weakest point to break relieving the stresses on the second point before it breaks.

Regards

Star man

Flail Chest is a term used to describe such injuries. We are not dealing with a car accident. A Significant fall may be to blame. A Heavy kick by an animal may be to blame. Crushing may also be to blame.

A kick would leave more obvious markes and probably would not cause the number of straight line fractures in this case.

Crushing is likely to cause damage to internal organs, which is not reported in the autopsies.

Regards

Star man
Not if it is limited by extent and duration.

A vehicle driving over in the ravine is unlikely to have been travelling very fast.  Maybe several mph? 

If you look at falls vs crush and ask what is the main difference:

Falls

1.  Fall is usually high speed
2. Fall energy is limited to the mass of the person and their speed of fall

A fall from 4 to 5 metres delivers enough force and energy to cause the chest injuries of the rav 4 it equates roughly to about 27kJ


Crush

1.  Crush can be fast or slow
2. Crush energy is limited to the mass of the crushing object and the speed of motion in the direction of crush
3.  Crush energy can also be based on powered crushing.  E.g hydraulic systems etc
4. The effect of snow depth can be easily calculated

So how much energy is involved with a military vehicle driving over them?

What is its mass?

What is depth of snow?

How far does the vehicle move vertically downwards when it hits the den?

Let's consider the difference in the energy of a fall vs a vehicle crush and find out if it tells us anything

Regards

Star man
Falls
[1] You say fall is usually high speed. Not sure what speeds you are thinking of  !  ? 
[2] 4 to 5 metres thats about 15 feet. But was there a 15 foot drop at the location where the bodies were found  !  ?
Crush
[ 4] You say that the effect of snow depth can be easily calculated ! ? Not sure what you mean by that. What snow depth ! ?

How can we consider the difference in the energy of a fall vs a vehicle crush ! ?  If they fell then how far and how fast did they fall = WE DONT KNOW. If there was a vehicle involved then what type of vehicle was it = WE DONT KNOW. So whats the point of trying to calculate something when most of the required information is UNKNOWN ! ? 
DB
 

May 03, 2019, 01:31:56 PM
Reply #209
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
What the hell is a 'superman'?
Unknown coercive and overwhelming force [/size][/color].... But I can say that ... My feelings are strong and my guess is that ...

Well I think thats what the Authorities may have been thinking at the time. And what has changed ?  NOTHING.  This Forum has come at this Dyatlov Mystery from every conceivable angle with no result whatsoever. So maybe we are dealing with an UNKNOWN OVERWHELMING FORCE. And that could be called a SIMPLE EXPLANATION.

That is not even an explanation.

Yes it is.  Just because the OVERWHELMING FORCE is UNKNOWN doesnt mean it isnt an explanation. Physicists often have to explain things using an unknown quantity.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:53:12 AM by Teddy »
DB