Dyatlov Pass Forum

Theories Discussion => Wolverine => Topic started by: Teddy on March 22, 2019, 03:08:56 AM

Title: Wolverine
Post by: Teddy on March 22, 2019, 03:08:56 AM
(https://i.ibb.co/DrvPt2n/Dyatlov-pass-wolverine.jpg)
Wolverine (lat. Gulo gulo) - a large representative of the mustelids subfamily. They love to eat, for which they got their name in Latin: translated Gulo - glutton. The weight of an adult individual ranges from 11 to 30 kg. They are kmown for their fierce and cruel temper. It is also the only beast that does not run away from danger, but attacks first. There are cases when a 30-pound beast has torn a bear, and there is a constant hunt for elks. And it's not just the character of the fighter. In addition to sharp claws, teeth and powerful jaws have a “secret weapon”. Like a skunk, if absolutely necessary, they can spray a rather stinky liquid - a discharge from special glands. Facts this theory is based on:
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: GeneralFailure on March 22, 2019, 05:00:14 AM
I'm pretty sure that this smell doesn't go away so easy (cat owner here ;) ) , so the search teams would have felt the smell.
For example if the cat pees on some shoes, they are compromised and I must throw them to garbage. The smells remains for years... (in fact I don't know if it ever disappears)
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: WAB on March 22, 2019, 05:25:32 AM
I'm pretty sure that this smell doesn't go away so easy (cat owner here ;) ) , so the search teams would have felt the smell.
For example if the cat pees on some shoes, they are compromised and I must throw them to garbage. The smells remains for years... (in fact I don't know if it ever disappears)

1.The Smell  glutton (or wolverene) much more proof than a smell of a cat.
2.Even if it is a smell has been muffled by a frost, it should feel in Ivdel when tent and things placed in Office of Public Prosecutor.
3.We saw traces of glutton on March, 12th when we came back from cedar to road to "Ilyich base". Traces have come out of the wood have approached almost to the top of vegetation and have gone back to wood. Therefore it is clear that the glutton in completely woodless place does not go. To it there it absolutely nothing do. About same me told local Mansi.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: sarapuk on March 22, 2019, 11:53:38 AM
I really can not see any way that a Wolverine or even a pack of them could be responsible for the Dyatlov Incident. One Wolverine on its own could be dealt with by 9 ADULTS. Several Wolverines could also be dealt with. I think too much as been made of the reputation of these animals. They may be fierce but they are also relatively small. A big Bear may have some difficulty with them because the Bear may not move as nimbly as say a HUMAN. But even a Bear could easily dispatch a Wolverine. Therefore a Wolverine or a pack of them is not going to force 9 ADULTS to abandon their means of survival and walk a mile poorly clothed and equipped. And also if any one was attacked by a Wolverine they would definitely fight back and inflict injury or death on the animal or animals.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Star man on March 24, 2019, 03:53:29 PM
If the tent was actually cut, then it's possible there was someone or something at the entrance, blocking their route out.  We seem to have all but ruled out a large predator, so coul it have been a Wolverine?  Personally I can't see it.  There were axes, knives that could have been used to dispatch it.

I also think the scent would still be on the tent when they recovered it.

Regards
Star man
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Radim on April 11, 2019, 02:54:01 PM
If the tent was actually cut, then it's possible there was someone or something at the entrance, blocking their route out.  We seem to have all but ruled out a large predator, so coul it have been a Wolverine?  Personally I can't see it.  There were axes, knives that could have been used to dispatch it.

I also think the scent would still be on the tent when they recovered it.

Regards
Star man

If 400 kgs elk starts to stomping to your tent, then you will probably want to escape also fast...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Marchesk on April 18, 2019, 07:28:12 AM
If 400 kgs elk starts to stomping to your tent, then you will probably want to escape also fast...

There would also probably be evidence that a 400 kgs elk was in the area. Same with a bear. There were no animal tracks found in the area by the search party or the investigation. A large animal being responsible is even less likely than other people on the mountain, because other people can cover their tracks, which animals don't care to do.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Loose}{Cannon on April 18, 2019, 07:57:48 AM
And yet the pork and bread within the tent remain untouched for weeks.    wink1

Now, maybe its just Americans, but imagine this with 9 fit hickers armed with big knives, a machete, and ice axes.   nea1


 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtXCBEF5kE8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XA8pxzawUGM
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: firefox on July 08, 2020, 11:01:53 AM
It was a wolverine on board a UFO, with a Yeti on board that shoots infrasound waves...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: sarapuk on July 09, 2020, 01:09:23 PM
It was a wolverine on board a UFO, with a Yeti on board that shoots infrasound waves...

Or maybe a YETI dropped off by a UFO to do the scary stuff.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 20, 2021, 09:47:14 PM
Link to the original source:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=47286

Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286

Common misconceptions about wolverine and its chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91970

P.S. This man knows what happened to the Dyatlov group:
https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on March 23, 2021, 01:03:01 AM
Link to the original source:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=47286

Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapons:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286

Common misconceptions about wolverine and its chemical weapons:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91970

P.S. This man knows what happened to the Dyatlov group:
https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw


Igor B .  This is the most convincing theory for me. Excellent work , very detailed and a lot of research . Step by step analysis to rib fractures , clothes, injuries,chronology of deaths and events. The photos and locations are extremely easy to understand. I cannot find a fault in anything you have wrote.A very satisfying explanation. Plus a lot of new information for me.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 03:51:34 AM
1.The Smell  glutton (or wolverene) much more proof than a smell of a cat.
2.Even if it is a smell has been muffled by a frost, it should feel in Ivdel when tent and things placed in Office of Public Prosecutor.
3.We saw traces of glutton on March, 12th when we came back from cedar to road to "Ilyich base". Traces have come out of the wood have approached almost to the top of vegetation and have gone back to wood. Therefore it is clear that the glutton in completely woodless place does not go. To it there it absolutely nothing do. About same me told local Mansi.
Common misconceptions about wolverine and its chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91970
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 03:54:32 AM
The wolverine is perhaps one of the least studied large carnivores in the world. Many people do not know that Wolverine has exactly the same chemical weapons as the skunk. The authors of this film don't know about it either (In English):

Phantom Wolverine
https://youtu.be/stYc6dLWqGM
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on March 28, 2021, 09:31:19 AM
Hi Игорь Б.

Can you post your links in English? I think people are having problems with translating when opening the links? I think I could copy and paste some. With your permission. I don't what the educate is on forums? Its your material.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 10:50:02 AM
Hi. I don't speak English. It's better if you translate from Russian than me. In the event of a translation error, it will be easier for you to guess the correct translation than for me.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on March 28, 2021, 11:26:47 AM


Спасибо Игорь Б.

Очень мило с Вашей стороны. На самом деле перевод, похоже, очень удачный. Я не хочу отдавать должное вашим исследованиям и работе. Все это звучит очень правдоподобно. На данный момент я не уверен в расширенных зрачках, но все еще читаю много вашей информации.


Thank you Игорь Б.

That's very kind of you. Actually the translation seems to come across very well. I don't want to take credit for your research and work. It all sounds very plausible. I am unsure about the dilated pupils at the moment but I am still reading through a lot of your information.


Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 28, 2021, 09:40:47 PM
Why did only two people notice the yellow-orange stains on the clothes - Doroshenko's mother and Colonel Ortyukov?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=85577
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 29, 2021, 06:11:36 PM
What did the yellow-orange stains look like?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=73650
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=75346
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on March 30, 2021, 07:07:10 PM
The skin color of the corpses has nothing to do with the wolverine's chemical weapons.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52440
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 08, 2022, 05:13:14 PM
1 wolverine killed 9 people?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on January 08, 2022, 06:00:43 PM
Have you got a sister called Dona?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Morski on January 09, 2022, 12:20:09 AM
Have you got a sister called Dona?

 lol2
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: ElizabethHarris on January 13, 2022, 07:33:52 AM
Who is Dona?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 18, 2022, 09:31:25 AM
Обратил внимание, что американцы совсем перестали интересоваться расследованием гибели группы Дятлова.
Полагаю, дело в том, что многие американцы лично на себе испытали ужасную вонь скунса. И когда они узнали, что и росомаха обладает точно таким же химическим оружием как и скунс им стала ясна причина оставления палатки и одежды, как никому другому и они покинули тему.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 18, 2022, 03:16:15 PM
              Reply #24
...............................

The wolverine theory from Igor B. has the great merit of being coherent and complete.

However, it remains difficult to understand for me because its exposition is scattered among the 2231 posts that are spread over the 113 web pages of the site:

http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

So, in summary, a wolverine, which is an aggressive animal, very active and which eats a lot, gets into the tent and pushes the hikers away thanks to its unbearable smell.
Then all the hikers die.

What I did not understand is why afterwards everything happens as if the wolverine mysteriously disappears.

She has corpses at her disposal which are nourishing and abundant food for her and yet she doesn't touch them, except maybe a little piece of Krivonischenko's nose

What happened? A wolverine is however a clever and intelligent animal, always interested in finding all kinds of meat.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 18, 2022, 04:29:46 PM
Ответы на некоторые заблуждения по поводу версии с росомахой.

"Если бы там была росомаха, она объела бы трупы и съела продукты":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=51049
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 19, 2022, 12:35:55 AM


Igor explains it in his 113 pages. It is not as large as it seems and he links all the questions you ask. I find it absolutely bewildering that you have difficulty navigating from his explanation and Igor b's exposition is quite simple.

1:The Dyatlov group camp on the slope.(bad weather)

 2:Wolverine finds its way into to the tent. Not to attack the group but just following it's nose and the smell of food.( Igor supplies examples and statements of other campers experiencing the Wolverine entering their tent. )

3: Panic by the group and by the Wolverine occur in the tent.

4:The Wolverine does not attack/ fight in this situation,it is not a fighting beast in that respect. The Wolverine is as scared/surprised by the encounter as the group. When the Wolverine (like a skunk) feels threatened or can't escape, it's immediate , instinctive reaction when in a extreme difficult situation , is to spray it's chemical toxic defensive weapon. A last resort. ( There are numerous videos on YouTube of the Wolverine fighting wolves etc ) but when in a situation that it can't control, the Wolverine will spray.

5: Igor B's hypothesis is that the the toxic spray is the reason for the exit of the tent. Not the fighting or threat from the animal but the chemical reaction , like a tear gas grenade. This is a strong odour that hurts the eyes and lungs. Given the possibility that it happened directly in the tent would only amplify the toxic spray. ( Just watch some riot videos and see what happens)

6: with this confusion and the fact that the Dyatlov group would know little about what just happened ,they left their belongings , leaving their equipment and discarding their sprayed clothing behind. Having suffered the irritant in its strongest dosage in a confined space, approaching the tent would add to the suffering to the group. ( By the way, skunk spray can knock a dog out) .

7: At this point we can forget the Wolverine, it's gone, it's ran off into the wilderness. The possibility of spray by the Wolverine also gives valadility to the reference of behaviour of the search dogs not willing to exit the helicopter. This is a indication of odd behaviour, also the fact that this was note worthy as to have been documented is interesting to me.

8:  as the foot prints show,the group left the tent and went towards the treeline..  Igor b then  explains /expands on what followed. It was a series of unfortunate events and the cold. He continues  by explaining why some had frostbite and others didn't for example and Why the ribs are broken in the way they were , as there are a number of different ways ribs break .....and the devil is in the detail.....( his 113 pages are linked to evidence based practice or medical examples) . There are explanations to the hand injuries, the body positions and why they occurred as a result of hypothermia.. (I have also found links to fractures of skulls from freezing ) .

---------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, Igor b"s explanation of the bodies and why they were found in their relative positions/ conditions is more interesting than the Wolverine part of the hypothesis. I would argue that his account of what followed the exit of the tent is the most  conclusive part of his argument against foul play / outsiders/ government badmen . 

Below is copied from Igor b's link. There is more than I have shown as it links to examples . But the Wolverine only plays a small part , it is the toxic stink that makes them leave the tent and it is that stink that stops them from returning to the tent .

------------------------------------------------------------------

Answers to some misconceptions about the wolverine version.

"If there was a wolverine, it would eat the corpses and eat the food."

Practically excluded and immediately for several reasons:

1. Stink.
From the tent and tourists smelled no longer of prey, but of the enemy. And the wolverine must distinguish between its own "marking" and "combat" smells (otherwise, why would it need different glands):


Otherwise, instead of the marked with her stash, she will again smell her recent enemy, from whom she barely swept her legs. Thus, a wolverine can mark his stash with a marking gland, urine, excrement, but never with the fluid of a fighting gland.

Products sprayed with the liquid of the battle gland will not be eaten by anyone, including the wolverine herself.
Not only because of the stench, but also because the mercaptans that make up this liquid are toxic.

2. Tearing
In addition to the stench, this weapon, due to its causticity, also has the properties of tear gas, whose effects in a confined space can last for several days:
Quote
For a week they could not enter the basement after the skunk attack without crying.

3. Fright.
Wolverine rarely uses his "chemical weapon" and if she did, then she was very scared. Why should she return to where she fled in fright?d it's defence weapon . It will not comeback to eat anything , neither will any other animal come near the bodies. ( Again , the
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 19, 2022, 12:52:36 AM
Ziljoe, большое спасибо за разъяснения на английском языке. Я думаю, русский язык для многих иностранцев является препятствием к пониманию.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 20, 2022, 10:53:46 AM
Even then there's no excuse for not taking all the coats (that were presumably sprayed), and towels with them.
Я не знаю, что они говорят (перевод субтитров ужасен), но я вижу, что они избавляются от одежды:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=105709
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=108590

Вещи, которые сразу же не вынесли из палатки с каждой секундой пребывания в очаге поражения всё больше и больше пропитывались вонью и стали совершенно непригодными к использованию кем-то ни было. Напомню, что непосредственное попадание жидкости на вещи необязательно:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56307

Чтобы воспользоваться вещами, их нужно было выкидывать из палатки сразу же, мгновенно. Счёт шёл не на минуты, а буквально на секунды. Конечно дятловцы растерялись. Пока они выбежали из палатки, пока размышляли что делать дальше, время было упущено.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 21, 2022, 10:06:33 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

2:Wolverine finds its way into to the tent. Not to attack the group but just following it's nose and the smell of food.( Igor supplies examples and statements of other campers experiencing the Wolverine entering their tent.)

Yes but the hikers were not sleeping. The two with shoes on were already outside (Does somebody know a Russian who does not take his shoes off when at home ?) and close to the entry. Slobodin was pulling his shoes on, sitting just close to the entry. And very probably, the others were all awake inside the tent.

The Wolverine didn't enter the tent at night when they were all sleeping, no surprise and no panic reaction for either party.

It was at daylight, either at dawn (my favor goes to dawn) or at dusk... then what surprise ? What panic ? And in open and flat terrain, not in a deep forest.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 21, 2022, 11:52:15 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

2:Wolverine finds its way into to the tent. Not to attack the group but just following it's nose and the smell of food.( Igor supplies examples and statements of other campers experiencing the Wolverine entering their tent.)

Yes but the hikers were not sleeping. The two with shoes on were already outside (Does somebody know a Russian who does not take his shoes off when at home ?) and close to the entry. Slobodin was pulling his shoes on, sitting just close to the entry. And very probably, the others were all awake inside the tent.

The Wolverine didn't enter the tent at night when they were all sleeping, no surprise and no panic reaction for either party.

It was at daylight, either at dawn (my favor goes to dawn) or at dusk... then what surprise ? What panic ? And in open and flat terrain, not in a deep forest.
Ha ha  Charles , my cunning and wise friend.


I agree on a couple of things. That it was dawn or dusk. The food in the tent and two of them better dressed  than the others   does indicate they weren't asleep. .

It could of been the start of morning duties and the stove could of been used through the night and packed up for the next stage of the journey.

As for the Wolverine , it could of got into the tent in a number of ways. Once in the tent, especially if they had the curtain , the beast might not have been able to make a quick exit and there the potential to spray.

Just a thought but I like your thinking Charles. Your points are always valid. I'm reading your other post at the moment which is an interesting observation.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 23, 2022, 02:42:51 AM
Dear Ziljoe,

so kind of you ! embarrassed1

I could agree with the wolverine entering the tent in such surroundings:

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-06.jpg

and in the middle of the night when they were all asleep, but not in the open in the morning, with two hikers already outside on their feet and the others waking up in the inside, moving, talking, laughing or arguing... and cursing about cold and moist that very night without stove.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 23, 2022, 09:45:19 AM
Происшествие случилось 1 февраля днём, с 13 до 15 часов. Доказано обледенением следов-столбиков. Вечером похолодало и обледенение следов стало невозможным. А не обледеневшие следы-столбики долго не сохраняются (1-2 дня).
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68954

В момент происшествия никого снаружи не было. Вход в палатку был застёгнут. Это доказано тем,  что из входа наружу была вытащена часть полога. Если бы вход не был застёгнут полог задуло бы внутрь палатки.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56923

Этот полог дважды сыграл роковую роль в происшествии. Сначала он не позволил росомахе вовремя увидеть людей в палатке, а потом помешал ей быстро найти выход из неё.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 23, 2022, 12:53:50 PM
Once in the tent, especially if they had the curtain, the beast might not have been able to make a quick exit and there the potential to spray.

How to enter if not using the entry ? But Slobodin was at the entry grabbing his second valenka to pull it on, and then ready to wear his jacket hanging at the pole and join the two others outside the tent. A wolverine is not such a small animal, the two hikers already outside should have been able to see him arriving from far away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JEkfO7I44o

Wolverines are not stealth animals, not at all, they are more like ferrets... they seem to be always high on some weird molecules Nature provided them in abundance... and have no inhibition whatsoever: these narcissists love to draw attention to themselves. Have you seen the wolverine on a snowy slope ? Reindeers, wolves, eagles, bears, capercaillies, lynxes, lagopedes... everybody around stop and watch... and say: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." But they can't stop watching because the show is constantly updated with some new stuff. And all of the animals enjoy the show but pray God that he'd never find a trumpet or a drum. The ugly truth is that wolverines have histrionic personality disorder: a personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive attention-seeking behaviors, usually beginning in early childhood, including inappropriate seduction and an excessive desire for approval, people diagnosed with the disorder are said to be lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious... as perfectly illustrated the images of the exalted on the snowy slope.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 23, 2022, 08:37:17 PM
Слободин потерял валенок, когда выползал из палатки на четвереньках. Или кто-то наступил на его валенок или он зацепился голенищем валенка за край разреза.

Никого снаружи палатки не было. Это глупый миф, основанный на том, что якобы в момент происшествия двое были полностью одеты. Это не так.
Золотарёв был укрыт курткой Дубининой, а на Тибо была куртка Слободина. Никто не будет выходить из палатки в чужой куртке, тем более, что Золотарёву куртка Дубининой была точно мала.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 23, 2022, 11:31:39 PM
Once in the tent, especially if they had the curtain, the beast might not have been able to make a quick exit and there the potential to spray.

How to enter if not using the entry ? But Slobodin was at the entry grabbing his second valenka to pull it on, and then ready to wear his jacket hanging at the pole and join the two others outside the tent. A wolverine is not such a small animal, the two hikers already outside should have been able to see him arriving from far away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JEkfO7I44o

Wolverines are not stealth animals, not at all, they are more like ferrets... they seem to be always high on some weird molecules Nature provided them in abundance... and have no inhibition whatsoever: these narcissists love to draw attention to themselves. Have you seen the wolverine on a snowy slope ? Reindeers, wolves, eagles, bears, capercaillies, lynxes, lagopedes... everybody around stop and watch... and say: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." They can't stop watching because the show is constantly updated with some new stuff. And all of the animals enjoy the show but pray God that he'd never find a trumpet or a drum. The ugly truth is that they have histrionic personality disorder: a personality disorder characterized by a pattern of excessive attention-seeking behaviors, usually beginning in early childhood, including inappropriate seduction and an excessive desire for approval, people diagnosed with the disorder are said to be lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious... as perfectly illustrated the images of the wolverine on the snowy slope.

Hi Charles

Perhaps the Wolverine knocked on the entrance of the tent and asked politely to come in. He is that clever???

To enter the tent , the Wolverine could of come in from any side of the tent at the snowline of where the  ground meets the tent. The beast could have also entered through the dedicated entrance . The entrance , I believe is flaps with some buckles/toggles , along with some kind of sheet sewn to the inside of the tent, to act as insulation from the entrance.

Everything may actually be in reverse. Charlie, you mentioned about the talk of conspiring to enter the tents in twos,from the diaries,when you previously discussed with passion about desire, tension and sex within the group.

My interpretation leans  along the lines of they would have had to plan together, in pairs, to enter the tent. Synonyms of the word conspire are for example... corporate/team up/ join/unite.

Given the size of the tent and number of the group , I would suspect that there was quite an organised plan to enter the tent in twos , especially if they selected the exposed slope in bad weather and their agreed time to actually brush teeth etc and go to bed.They would need to sort their belongs at the door within the possible changing area or as you suggested, an entry hall. The point being is , they may have being going into the tent and taking off boots. Plus there is no evidence of two of them being outside the tent at that moment in time , if they were outside they could have been looking at the view and not in any direction from whence a Wolverine might stroll up from. Although the records implies two were better dressed , this was other people's clothes.

I shall translate Igor b's statement here:
(There was no one outside the tent. This is a silly myth based on the fact that the two were allegedly fully clothed at the time of the incident. This is not true.
Zolotarev was covered with Dubinina's jacket, and Thibault was wearing Slobodin's jacket. No one will leave the tent in someone else's jacket, especially since Dubinina's jacket was definitely small for Zolotarev)

Any entrance of a Wolverine would be a surprise, like it or not. I have experience of  camping in winter , it was light snow and I had gone to the local restaurant for a drink. On my return , I lit my wood stove for heat and started to cook some bacon. I had heated up my water for tea and was concerned about the wind as it was flapping the tent considerably. It is a sealed tent , double layered. As I was drinking my tea and eating my bacon roll ,I heard the growl and hiss that only a cat can do. Some how a cat had got into the tent whilst I was out at the restaurant and hid whilst I was heating my food. Obviously not dangerous but  the fright I got was off the scale and I like cats and know they are harmless, however there was panic by me for 5 seconds  , this panic then turned to concern of how I remove this growling cat from my tent without it clawing the tent to bits and wreaking the inside of my rather expensive lavvu. Although not a perfect example, under different circumstances I can clearly  see the possibility of the Wolverine hypothesis.

The Wolverine seems to be the size of an average dog with more fur, maybe different sizes depending on where they evolved from. You can see lots of things if we look in the right direction but if we are looking in the opposite direction we will not see it.
 

The Wolverine must be a bit stealthy as the narrator says on your video link of the Wolverine."If you are ever unlucky to get get close to one, chances are they will disappear before you ever know they were there"

It would seem bears , lynx , wolves also leap and play in the snow but the Wolverine is illusive . But the following bit confused me Charles, where you say:

"The ugly truth is that they have histrionic personality disorder: "

Why are we projecting human disorders on a animal in its own habitat?



Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 23, 2022, 11:50:47 PM
So when the wolverine saw the tourists from far away, he said to himself: "These Soviet tourist won't go back to their city without a souvenir of me, they'll remember my name, I gonna spray them to the bones!" He made a long detour to position himself more on the slope, above the tent, and then he went on full olympic downhill mode, sliding at high speed straight to the tent. At the last moment he threw is hands forward, all claws out, closed his eyes and screamed "Huraaaaaah!"... That's how in entered the tent, and then, he sprayed the tourist like hell, like the police fires tear gas at hooligans outside football stadiums, he switched on anti-riot police mode... That's why the tourists couldn't see him arriving, because it was all premeditated. And the tear gas was frozen on the clothes, the fabric and everything, when later it defrost in the heat of the forensic medicine building, they all recognize the awful scent and the forensic team said: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." (a very common sentence in the Urals). But the rescuers who had a keen sense of smell, they already knew the truth. The sad part of the story being that the young Soviet engineers solved their eye irritation problem with a 2 km walk barefoot in the forest, which was a pretty stupid solution and a deadly one in the end (there was a urban legend at that time in Russia saying that walking barefoot in the snow could calm eye irritation). And it is also the moral of the story, that engineers solutions are not always the best.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 24, 2022, 12:11:14 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

Plus there is no evidence of two of them being outside the tent at that moment in time

Yes there is, one of the few things we can understand for sure from the available data. Two hikers had their shoes on and were already outside, Slobodin had pulled on only one valenka and his jacket was hanging at the pole at the door, and the others were barefoot and inside. The one valenka + jacket hanging at the door means Slobodin was at the door preparing to go out (or in). But the two who had their shoes on and wore jackets were deeper inside the tent than Slobodin?

And by the way, some hikers wore Yudin's clothes, Zina wore Doroshenko's mittens and Krivonishenko's jacket, wearing somebody's else clothes happened previously and was not at all impossible.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 24, 2022, 12:42:12 AM
Why are we projecting human disorders on a animal in its own habitat?

Because animals are damn anarchists and using them as characters in our stories to express human flaws works well and is as old as humanity. See Aesop's fables, Phaedra's fables, Homer's Batrachomyomachia (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hesiod,_the_Homeric_Hymns_and_Homerica/The_Battle_of_the_Frogs_and_Mice)...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 01:47:15 AM
So when the wolverine saw the tourists from far away, he said to himself: "These Soviet tourist won't go back to their city without a souvenir of me, I gonna spray them to the bones!" He made a long detour to position himself more on the slope, above the tent, and then went on full olympic downhill mode, sliding at high speed straight to the tent. At the last moment he threw is hands forward, all claws out, closed his eyes and screamed "Huraaaaaah!"... That's how in entered the tent, and then, he sprayed the tourist like hell, like the police fires tear gas at hooligans outside football stadiums, he went on anti-riot police mode... That's why the tourists couldn't see him arriving, because it was all premeditated. And the tear gas was frozen on the clothes, the fabric and everything, when later it defrost in the heat of the forensic medicine building, they all recognize the awful scent and the forensic team said: "Ha ! The wolverine, again." (a very common sentence in the Urals). But the rescuers who had a keen sense of smell, they already knew the truth. The sad part of the story being that the young Soviet engineers solved their eye irritation problem with a 2 km walk barefoot in the forest, which was a pretty stupid solution and a deadly one in the end (there was a urban legend at that time in Russia saying that walking barefoot in the snow could calm eye irritation). And it is also the moral of the story, that engineers solutions are not always the best.

The Wolverine does not think like that( although quite funny) . The Wolverine has no plan for it to be written and talked about for many years later . We know little about the Wolverine today let alone  back in 1959. If I remember correctly, the entrance to the tent was mostly fully buttoned up.  The Wolverine could easily have found its way into the tent in a number of ways, especially with the motive for food. It is easy for an animal to get into a tent by poking it's nose under the lip.  It's the unknown for the tourists that may have been the problem.  We know skunk spray effects dogs and irritates humans. The spray can cause quite severe symptoms. If you did not know what the limitation of being sprayed was and that more exposure to this chemical might makes things worse or even kill , would you approach the tent? Once the eyes and lungs are irritated, to return to the area of spray would just enhance the pain.

The searchers dogs behaviour was questioned when exiting the helicopter at the dyatlovpass. This is a link to the spray smell. It's  nature's own formula and tear gas is an example that followed nature.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 01:56:45 AM
Hello Ziljoe,

Plus there is no evidence of two of them being outside the tent at that moment in time

Yes there is, one of the few things we can understand for sure from the available data. Two hikers had their shoes on and were already outside, Slobodin had pulled on only one valenka and his jacket was hanging at the pole at the door, and the others were barefoot and inside. The one valenka + jacket hanging at the door means Slobodin was at the door preparing to go out (or in). But the two who had their shoes on and wore jackets were deeper inside the tent than Slobodin?

And by the way, some hikers wore Yudin's clothes, Zina wore Doroshenko's mittens and Krivonishenko's jacket, wearing somebody's else clothes happened previously and was not at all impossible.

I am not sure of the exact arrangement of how the entered and exited the tent. There may have been some standard operating procedure where one takes the boots off the other.

If some of the clothes were swapped how do we know slobidins jacket was hanging at the door of the tent , someone else could have been wearing it?.

Plus , if the hikers outside the tent would see a Wolverine , why didn't they see any attackers first to warn the others. Why did the tent get cut?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 24, 2022, 02:09:08 AM
Случай, когда росомаха залезла в армейскую палатку, полную бодрствующих солдат:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=71513

Случай, когда росомаха зашла в дом в присутствии человека:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szRbXKiVgt4

Случаи, когда росомаха не боится человека:

https://youtu.be/wMwCLXmZMHs

https://youtu.be/o2anN3iKu-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnJG5kh1Drg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEOE4Do6ChU

https://youtu.be/4ri1STUt-nw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjalYvbK93o

https://youtu.be/FAci6zlNtdA?t=113
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 02:16:30 AM
Why are we projecting human disorders on a animal in its own habitat?

Because animals are damn anarchists and using them as characters in our stories to express human flaws works well and is as old as humanity. See Aesop's fables, Phaedra's fables, Homer's Batrachomyomachia (https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hesiod,_the_Homeric_Hymns_and_Homerica/The_Battle_of_the_Frogs_and_Mice)...

Animals may follow no government but they do follow certain rules amongst themselves. I am a bit lost with describing the Wolverine as a narcissistic animal . It follows it's nose for food and that's as exciting as it gets. There is no more story to the Wolverine theory other than wondering into the tent, getting stuck , spray and move on.

It leaves 9 tourists outside their tent with watery eyes and uncomfortable smells wondering what just happened.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 24, 2022, 04:55:35 AM
If some of the clothes were swapped how do we know slobidins jacket was hanging at the door of the tent , someone else could have been wearing it?.

It was Slobodin's valenka + Slobodin's jacket at the same place, so in that case, Slobodin was there, pulling is second valenka on and ready to put his jacket on.

Plus , if the hikers outside the tent would see a Wolverine , why didn't they see any attackers first to warn the others.

Because the attackers had no need to declare themselves as attackers from a long distance. They could just wave the hand as a friendly salute, get close to the tent and then only show their real intentions.

Once the eyes and lungs are irritated, to return to the area of spray would just enhance the pain.

I guess it is very rare that wolverine or skunk spray could kill humans... isn't it ? Were the hikers so soft and gentle they preferred to die rather to endure the temporary discomfort of wolverine spray ? I think the hikers were much softer than the loggers, but not softer to that point. No if they had been sprayed by a wolverine, they would make stupid jokes like: "That's it, Sacha just pulled his shoes out!" or "What bastard just farted?"... they were good at making stupid jokes according to Zina.

I am a bit lost with describing the Wolverine as a narcissistic animal

"Lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious" is the perfect description of the wolverine's character, don't you agree ?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 24, 2022, 05:19:58 AM
If some of the clothes were swapped how do we know slobidins jacket was hanging at the door of the tent , someone else could have been wearing it?.

It was Slobodin's valenka + Slobodin's jacket at the same place, so in that case, Slobodin was there, pulling is second valenka on and ready to put his jacket on.

Plus , if the hikers outside the tent would see a Wolverine , why didn't they see any attackers first to warn the others.

Because the attackers had no need to declare themselves as attackers from a long distance. They could just wave the hand as a friendly salute, get close to the tent and then only show their real intentions.

Once the eyes and lungs are irritated, to return to the area of spray would just enhance the pain.

I guess it is very rare that wolverine or skunk spray could kill humans... isn't it ? Were the hikers so soft and gentle they preferred to die rather to endure the temporary discomfort of wolverine spray ? I think the hikers were much softer than the loggers, but not softer to that point. No if they had been sprayed by a wolverine, they would make stupid jokes like: "That's it, Sacha just pulled his shoes out!" or "What bastard just farted?"... they were good at making stupid jokes according to Zina.

I am a bit lost with describing the Wolverine as a narcissistic animal

"Lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious" is the perfect description of the wolverine's character, don't you agree ?

Some one will need to tell me how to separate the quotes.  grin1

Thibault was found wearing Slobidins jacket?  So when did the suprise come to cut open the tent from these others ?

The spray did not kill them. It was the accidents that followed. Weather , snow bridge etc. They would not know what the spray was or how serious it was. It would have been concentrated in the tent and more potent . If it was daylight it is on that reason they may have decided to look for water to wash. Left their torch on the slope for direction to return to the tent.  I think the spray is more than a fart smell.

"Lively, dramatic, vivacious, enthusiastic, extroverted and flirtatious" is the perfect description of the wolverine's character, don't you agree ? No, I don't agree with histrionic personality disorder in an animal.

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 06:04:01 AM
The spray did not kill them. It was the accidents that followed. Weather , snow bridge etc. They would not know what the spray was or how serious it was.

So, when the hikers arrived at Heaven's doors, they met St Peter:

"How did you come to me, my young fellows?" he asked.
"We were sprayed by a wolverine without our knowledge and then we had accidents."
"Michael ! Michael !" called St Peter.
"Here I am" answered Archangel St Michael, "to your service, Holy Father."
"Tell me Michael, sprayed by a wolverine without knowledge and then accidents: is that stupid or bad luck?"
"That is stupid, Holy Father" answered Archangel St Michael, "and somehow outrageously delicate, shall I say".
"We really don't appreciate bad smells" approved the hikers, "life is not worth living in a smelly environment."
"So you'll be housed in the stupid sector" said St Peter, "Let me find in my book... Hum... Hum... Please, Michael, tell me: where is stupid sector? I can't find the coordinates in my book!"
"Stupid sector is Earth, Holy Father." answered Archangel St Michael, "as it has always been since Genesis."
"Ah, that's why... I'm getting old and I'm losing my memory... So, back to life, my young fellows: stupids age very well and I have no room for you up here."

And therefore, the hikers could not have died at Dyatlov's Pass.


Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 26, 2022, 07:02:32 AM
О невыносимости зловония химического оружия росомахи (скунса):
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=77684

О едкости и слезоточивости химического оружия росомахи (скунса):
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90993

https://youtu.be/6nPUnmbPYHE

https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw

https://youtu.be/RceOgHtHgU8

О воздействии и сроках выветривания запаха скунса (росомахи) при низких температурах:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68185
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 07:20:24 AM
https://youtu.be/6nPUnmbPYHE

https://youtu.be/H-w1P549QTw

https://youtu.be/RceOgHtHgU8

That is to say: if they were Russians, theses guys would run under a car, jump off a cliff, hang themselves or shoot a bullet in their heads? Why don't Westerners choose death and how can they endure so easily the pain? They don't even call for help! They just cough and spit and curse. Are Westerners made of steel? Are Russians such sissies? I can't believe it. "Smell or death: what do you choose ? Death !" No way... The last ones, the couple, they even laugh at it... the girl is coughing and laughing at the same time...
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 08:10:13 AM
https://youtu.be/RceOgHtHgU8

I like so much their reaction, and the girl laughing in the end... I like her a lot, she's funny and easy going.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 26, 2022, 10:20:49 AM
Quote
Легкий запах скунса совсем не тошнотворный, какой-то жжено-резиновый. А то, что запах может быть ТАКОЙ силы, что просто вырубает и дыхание, и зрение в одну секунду, я до этого не знала.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=68185

Большое количество вещества и небольшое закрытое помещение - залог успеха.

Сколько вещества у маленького скунса:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPVjJXs6WnE

А сколько вещества у большой росомахи?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 03:14:56 PM
The spray did not kill them. It was the accidents that followed. Weather , snow bridge etc. They would not know what the spray was or how serious it was.

So, when the hikers arrived at Heaven's doors, they met St Peter:

"How did you come to me, my young fellows?" he asked.
"We were sprayed by a wolverine without our knowledge and then we had accidents."
"Michael ! Michael !" called St Peter.
"Here I am" answered Archangel St Michael, "to your service, Holy Father."
"Tell me Michael, sprayed by a wolverine without knowledge and then accidents: is that stupid or bad luck?"
"That is stupid, Holy Father" answered Archangel St Michael, "and somehow outrageously delicate, shall I say".
"We really don't appreciate bad smells" approved the hikers, "life is not worth living in a smelly environment."
"So you'll be housed in the stupid sector" said St Peter, "Let me find the number in my book... Hum... Hum... Please, Michael, tell me: where is stupid sector? I can't find the coordinates in my book!"
"Stupid sector is Earth, Holy Father." answered Archangel St Michael, "as it has always been since Genesis."
"Ah, that's why... I'm getting old and I'm losing my memory... So, back to life, my young fellows: stupids age very well and I have no room for you up here."

And therefore, the hikers could not have died at Dyatlov's Pass.

Charles

So God did it?

On a serious note, if they were sprayed in the tent,in a confined space, the effects would be more powerful. They would have little water available to try and wash, if they had any at all. I believe it is reasonable to assume they would have little or no knowledge of a Wolverine defensive spray. If their eyes, throat etc hurt it would be quite plausible that the effects were enough to cause the exit of the tent. This is also the context of some clothing being discarded around the tent. Anything that was sprayed or even in the tent area would only cause more irritation. Who knows, they may have tried rubbing snow on their faces and hands but it didn't help.

If they were to think they might go blind for example from more exposure to the spray they would discard what clothing they could. Water wouldn't help but they would not know that , neither would they know that waiting would have been the best thing to do.

The reason for the footprints may have been to reduced vision or the hope that they would find a stream by walking  abreast instead of single file. If your eyes and throat are burning , you don't know why, you not have water, what would you do?

Anyway, they are just thoughts.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 04:11:44 PM
So God did it?

God does not allow death by wolverine spray.

I believe it is reasonable to assume they would have little or no knowledge of a Wolverine defensive spray.

I thought they were confirmed hikers and native Russians ? Are you saying they were unable to link an eye irritation and the presence of a wolverine in their tent ? Please...

The reason for the footprints may have been to reduced vision or the hope that they would find a stream by walking  abreast instead of single file.

You really have a low opinion of them, lower than I have in my worst hypothesis.

If your eyes and throat are burning , you don't know why, you not have water, what would you do?

You don't know why ? According to you, they had a wolverine in their tent, they were Russian hikers from the eastern slopes of the Urals, smart students and engineers and they were unable to understand they were sprayed by the little guy ?

I was gased many times by the police during political rallies against the regime I attended in Paris when I was younger. We never ever felt the need to dive into the Seine... In the contrary, there was always a batch of beautiful girls just meters behind the front line, who were observing the most determined guys and hoping to get lucky... We were pretending not to feel any harm just to make a good impression on these girls... walking through clouds of tear gas as if it was morning fog in the forest... Young people can be stupid, I concede, but not to the point to dive into the Seine or walk kilometers in the deadly cold of Siberia in search of a stream just because of eye irritation.

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 26, 2022, 04:19:02 PM
Ключевой факт происшествия - расширенные зрачки.
У замёрзших трезвыми зрачки всегда узкие, без исключений:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=51908
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52035

Условия освещения на этот признак не влияют. В противном случае получилось бы, что все пьяные всегда замерзают только в темноте, а все трезвые всегда только на свету.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 05:33:27 PM
So God did it?

God does not allow death by wolverine spray.

I believe it is reasonable to assume they would have little or no knowledge of a Wolverine defensive spray.

I thought they were confirmed hikers and native Russians ? Are you saying they were unable to link an eye irritation and the presence of a wolverine in their tent ? Please...

The reason for the footprints may have been to reduced vision or the hope that they would find a stream by walking  abreast instead of single file.

You really have a low opinion of them, lower than I have in my worst hypothesis.

If your eyes and throat are burning , you don't know why, you not have water, what would you do?

You don't know why ? According to you, they had a wolverine in their tent, they were Russian hikers from the eastern slopes of the Urals, smart students and engineers and they were unable to understand they were sprayed by the little guy ?

I was gased many times by the police during political rallies against the regime I attended in Paris when I was younger. We never ever felt the need to dive into the Seine... In the contrary, there was always a batch of beautiful girls just meters behind the front line, who were observing the most determined guys and hoping to get lucky... We were pretending not to feel any harm just to make a good impression on these girls... walking through clouds of tear gas as if it was morning fog in the forest... Young people can be stupid, I concede, but not to the point to jump in the Seine or walk kilometers in the deadly cold of Siberia in search of a stream.

Hi Charles,

I'm no expert on God but you seem to have him on speed dial , so ask him and let us all know what happened.

The key component of the hypothesis is the spray in a confined space. In the tent.i will translate what Igor b just posted.

(The key fact of the incident is dilated pupils.
Frozen sober pupils are always narrow, without exception:)
(Lighting conditions do not affect this feature. Otherwise, it would turn out that all drunk people always freeze only in the dark, and all sober people always only in the light.)

Being a confirmed hiker or native Russian has nothing to do with getting sprayed or knowing what a Wolverine can do if you have never been informed. The level of irritation is the question. Is the spray that bad? I do not know for sure but I am lead to believe that it is worse than a skunk. Igor b shares links to others that have experienced this spray and has observed their comments. I am not saying they can't link the spray to the Wolverine but I am implying that this chemical in their eyes was enough to cause alarm and worry. When I say they did not have knowledge of the Wolverine I mean they most likely not know about it's chemical spray. Little is known about it to this day. So in 1959 less was known. It is uncommon for a Wolverine to use this spray and the investigating authorities at the time probably didn't think of it. If they did not know about what was in this spray or the outcome to long exposure to these chemicals, you don't just sit in the snow unable to return to the tent with eyes hurting . Action must be taken.

I don't think it's a low opinion to try to understand what may have taken place. If it was seen as a medical issue and they were concerned about what was taking place, it would be logical to seek water and shelter?.

And when I say you don't know why, I mean they did not know why, as in, what is happening or just happened. To take it from their perspective, they didn't have Google! . They were in a situation that they did not fully understand because it was most likely not in their survival manual !


As for this story by you Charles.

"I was gased many times by the police during political rallies against the regime I attended in Paris when I was younger. We never ever felt the need to dive into the Seine... In the contrary, there was always a batch of beautiful girls just meters behind the front line, who were observing the most determined guys and hoping to get lucky... We were pretending not to feel any harm just to make a good impression on these girls... walking through clouds of tear gas as if it was morning fog in the forest... Young people can be stupid, I concede, but not to the point to jump in the Seine or walk kilometers in the deadly cold of Siberia in search of a stream."

1) you knew you were getting gased, you also knew that there would be no long-term detrimental harm. Total different context.

2) we don't know if the gas you experienced was the same chemicals as what the hikers experienced.

3) you say you were pretending not to feel any harm which would imply you felt harm? If you were to  know nothing about tear gas and you were subject to it , I am sure your reaction would be different to your experience at the riot where you knew what was happening.

4) you were at a riot suffering harm to Impress women, how noble????? And you say these women were thinking they want to get lucky with the guys that last the longest in tear gas???? Because that's a real turn on I'm sure? Darwinism at its finest.....you do reference, lust, desire, sex , women's thighs etc in most of your ever changing hypothesis. Maybe it's you that has a low opinion of the loggers, Mansi , Dyatolv himself and the dynamics of the group.

5 ) They are not looking to jump in the river Seini or any other river.They are looking to find water. If your eyes are burning and there's muck in your throat and lungs what do you drink or rinse if everything is snow?

Ps,
Let us all know if you made love after the riot.....

Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 06:34:41 PM
This is from Igor b's links that he posted. Translated to English , so there might be some errors. If you use his links directly you will see the photos, references to medical research and sourced information. It should be of interest to those that favour outsiders using a gas grenade also , or force. The dilated pupils are another example of how some sort of toxins were involved, please enjoy this rather detailed explanation and research by Igor b.

--------------------------------------

Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils. Only in Kolmogorova the state of the pupils is not described. (For obvious reasons, the state of the pupils is not described in the four found in the stream, so we are not talking about them).

10 years ago, questions of statistics of signs of death from hypothermia interested an expert from Khabarovsk Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
http://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=1891
He did a great job of studying 100 cases of death from cold and freezing.

Interesting things have come to light. For example, it turned out that the “pose of a chilled person”, which was considered almost mandatory for a frozen person, was met only in 2% of cases.
But the main thing is the pupils. Of the 100 examined, 13 were sober and all had constricted pupils. 87 of the frozen ones were drunk and they all had dilated pupils.


Thus, if the cause of death is freezing and the person was sober, the pupils will definitely be constricted (100%).



The examination established the absence of alcohol among tourists. And according to a number of other signs and evidence of Yu. Yudin, there is no reason to doubt their sobriety. Then the most likely cause of dilated pupils is the preliminary poisoning of tourists.

There is still no doubt about freezing as the cause of death. This is indicated by the main, "reinforced concrete" signs of freezing observed in the dead:
Cerebral edema 99%
Juiciness, plethora of the soft integument of the skull 91%
Plethora of heart cavities 95%
Lungs on a dark red section 98%
Vishnevsky's spots 95%

But the version with a certain chemical effect, as the cause initiating the tragedy, receives weighty evidence.
The rest of the versions are inconsistent, because. cannot make pupils dilated when they should be narrow .

Why did the medical examiner overlook this?
The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny could experience a lack of information and accumulated statistical data on this issue at that time.
Modern "invited" experts - because of the lack of practice in this particular type of expertise.

There may be misconceptions that the pupils of the frozen were dilated, allegedly due to darkness. This is not true.
Pupils cease to react to light at the last stage of freezing, even during life. After death, the width of the pupils is controlled by completely different processes.


Quote
The pupils are constricted, do not react to light.


Quote
The reaction to light is sharply weakened or lost.

The pupils do not care - it is dark or light, the eyelids are open or closed, however, in sober people they will be narrowed in 100% of cases, and in drunken people they will be expanded in 100% of cases.
Lighting conditions do not affect this attribute. Otherwise, it would turn out that all drunk people always freeze only in the dark, and all sober people always only in the light.


Returning to the question of abnormally dilated pupils in those who are frozen sober:


It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
And the pupils are really very dilated:

( In Igor's b link there is a photo of the dilated eye pupil of Dyatolv)

100% the presence of constricted pupils in frozen sober people was confirmed in another work:
"Death from hypothermia" V.P. Desyatov, 1977


Quote
In the corpses of persons who died from cooling while sober, the pupils, according to our observations, turned out to be constricted, while in the case of severe intoxication preceding death, the pupils were dilated in 59%.

In this case, not even all drunks had dilated pupils. Apparently 41% of drunks with narrow pupils were slightly drunk.


But the tourists weren't drunk at all.
First, the medical examiner revived established the absence of alcohol.
Secondly, in the same work by Desyatov, the difference between sober and drunkards is indicated by the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids:


Quote
On non-frozen corpses of persons who died of cold sober, the mucous membrane of the eyelids in all cases was pale pink.

The forensic expert Vozrozhdenny described the color of the mucous membrane of the eyelids only in three: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova.

Doroshenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale pink .

Krivonischenko:
Quote
... the pupils are dilated , the mucous membrane of the eyelids is pale gray .(in this case, the pale gray color can be caused by the so-called "weathering", because Krivonischenko was lying face up and was almost not covered with snow)

Kolmogorov:
Quote
The mucous membrane of the eyelids is reddish in color.

No blueness.

The reason for the expansion of the pupils could be the wolverine's chemical weapon:
Quote
Sometimes the cause of mydriasis (dilated pupils) can be hidden in acute poisoning of the body and its intoxication. And the development of dilated pupils is largely facilitated by the conditions of a professional activity related to the use of toxic chemicals.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Charles on June 26, 2022, 06:41:47 PM
Action must be taken.

Yes, but not suicide.

If it was seen as a medical issue and they were concerned about what was taking place, it would be logical to seek water and shelter?

Not logical if in winter on the slope of Kholyat Syakhl... or else logic kills...

we don't know if the gas you experienced was the same chemicals as what the hikers experienced.

Contemporary chemical industry is likely to perform as good as wolverines.

you say you were pretending not to feel any harm which would imply you felt harm?

Of course it was very unpleasant, but funny at the same time, like the two Canadians laughing after being sprayed by a skunk.

you were at a riot suffering harm to Impress women, how noble?????

I wrote "young" and "stupid"... )))

Because that's a real turn on I'm sure? Darwinism at its finest.....

Yes, it was Darwinian, and it was fascinating to observe. And I am even sure that some of these young people got married and now have families. Having the same political convictions and meeting on the barricades is much more romantic than using an app on a smartphone. "Daddy, mommy, how did you meet? On the barricades, honey!" will always be nicer than "Through Tinder"...

you do reference, lust, desire, sex , women's thighs etc in most of your ever changing hypothesis.

In the hypothesis of internal strife in group of young people or in the hypothesis of conflict between two groups of young people, knowing the presence of girls in the middle, yes, these parameters have to be included. I think now of an hypothesis not related to conflict and therefore there is no desire, no envy, no jealousy in my picture.

If your eyes are burning and there's muck in your throat and lungs what do you drink or rinse if everything is snow?

Our body has a special ability called "crying", designed to rinse our eyes in such cases.

Greetings
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 26, 2022, 07:05:03 PM
Action must be taken.

Yes, but not suicide.

If it was seen as a medical issue and they were concerned about what was taking place, it would be logical to seek water and shelter?

Not logical if in winter on the slope of Kholyat Syakhl... or else logic kills...

we don't know if the gas you experienced was the same chemicals as what the hikers experienced.

Contemporary chemical industry is likely to perform as good as wolverines.

you say you were pretending not to feel any harm which would imply you felt harm?

Of course it was very unpleasant, but funny at the same time, like the two Canadians laughing after being sprayed by a skunk.

you were at a riot suffering harm to Impress women, how noble?????

I wrote "young" and "stupid"... )))

Because that's a real turn on I'm sure? Darwinism at its finest.....

Yes, it was Darwinian, and it was fascinating to observe. And I am even sure that some of these young people got married and now have families. Having the same political convictions and meeting on the barricades is much more romantic than using an app on a smartphone. "Daddy, mommy, how did you meet? On the barricades, honey!" will always be nicer than "Through Tinder"...

you do reference, lust, desire, sex , women's thighs etc in most of your ever changing hypothesis.

In the hypothesis of internal strife in group of young people or in the hypothesis of conflict between two groups of young people, knowing the presence of two girls in the middle, yes, these parameters have to be included. I think now of an hypothesis not related to conflict and therefore there is no desire, no envy, no jealousy in the sketch.

If your eyes are burning and there's muck in your throat and lungs what do you drink or rinse if everything is snow?

Our body has a special ability called "crying", designed to rinse our eyes in such cases.

Greetings

It would be suicide to take no action and stand away from the tent , on a slope doing nothing. They may have feared blindness or breathing issues.

The logic is they could not go back to the tent in fear of making their symptoms worse.

Contemporary chemicals vairy depending on their use. But if a gas grenade ,skunk or Wolverine spray was to happen in a small tent with 9 people it is logical to exit the tent quickly. You would not be prepared for it and laughing might be in short supply.

It may have been funny for you but not for all those involved in your riot. There is laughing but it is a skunk and a controlled environment where people know what's going. Change the scenario to the confines of a tent, miles from safety and unsure if this chemical will do long-term harm.

You write "young" and "stupid" , I know you are not one of these things.

Crying may help, but how long would it take for it to resolve the effects, to eyes, lungs throat? Do they take the risk just sitting away from the tent in the cold till it maybe goes away?
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Игорь Б. on June 27, 2022, 04:01:55 AM
Ключевой факт происшествия - расширенные зрачки.
Второй ключевой факт - жёлто-оранжевые пятна на одежде:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52683

Причём известны свойства этих пятен - они нерастворимы в воде и вызывают экзему:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=57656

Интересно, что это за вещество?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52636
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61059
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=73650

Quote
Wolverines can produce a foul smelling yellow fluid from anal scent glands.
https://www.planetdeadly.com/animals/wolverine-facts-or-wolverine-kill-man
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on June 28, 2022, 03:38:23 PM


                     Reply #55
This is from Igor b's links that he posted. Translated to English ,
..............................................
Four of the top five tourists (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Slobodin, Dyatlov) had dilated pupils.
...................................................
Rybalkin R.V.:
"On the frequency of occurrence and probability of signs of death from cold"
...........................................
It is safe to say that the answer to the death of the Dyatlovites lies in the cause of dilated pupils .
...............................................


@ Ziljoe : I warmly thank you for your work in translating and summarising Igor B.'s arguments in support of the wolverine theory.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133

For my poor mental capacity, 112 web pages and 2232 posts in Russian is already a long time to study, but more:
A number of arguments are in image format and therefore cannot be copied and pasted into an automatic translator.

A number of posts give links to other websites in Russian.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
The death of the hickers does not fall within the scope of the cases studied by Rybalkin R.V. :

According to my theories TOK** (Tumanov - Oestmoen - Kandr - others),
the death of the 4 considered hikers is not mainly caused by the cold, but by the tremendous blunt object blows which sends them in a deep coma. In this state of deep coma, i.e. near death, the phenomenon of the dilated pupils does not occur because all the cerebral functioning is disturbed (and perhaps may be compared to that of a dead drunk person).

If they had been immediately treated in a hospital, these 4 hickers might have survived without disability, but this is not even sure.

Afterwards of course the bodies freeze (then thaw) but the cold action plays a secondary role in giving real symptoms of apparent cold death.

The violence of the tremendous blunt object blows is not assessable at autopsy because the attackers' blunt objects were wrapped in rag padding carefully sewn onto the birch wood. In other words, brain damage can be significant without any skull fractures.

The habit of rag-wrapped blunt objects originated with some trappers who wanted to sell rare and valuable skins (such as those of wolverines) without the skins being damaged by a bullet hole (and thus losing some of their high value).

The rag stuffing provided by the attackers was not intended to deceive the autopsy. It was to provide a deadly but silent weapon; essential to the success of the attackers' gun-free tactics.


                     Reply #57
..................
The logic is they could not go back to the tent in fear of making their symptoms worse.
.........................
Change the scenario to the confines of a tent, miles from safety and unsure if this chemical will do long-term harm.
.........................

Indeed, the exit from the tent can perfectly well be explained by the entry of a curious wolverine.

This is a solution which is in accordance with what I call the Anatoliy Stepochkin axiom :

They launched a kind of dope inside (they = wolverine)

There is a very large number of chemical devices that can make the atmosphere inside a small tent almost instantly unbreathable.

When I was young, and as stupid and stubborn in error as I am now, I made suffocating jars of SO² according to the reaction :

2 ClO³K + 3 S ---> 3 SO² + 2 ClK

but in the open air and always on the right side of the wind !

At that time one could buy for cheap kilograms of potassium chlorate and sulphur in flower (powdered sulphur) in the big drugstores.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_chlorate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfur


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Strange behaviour of this wolverine who usually finds her meat reserves hidden in the snow for several weeks and who does not come back to the tent after a few days to finish her meal when the smell of her toxic spray has been attenuated (since it is imperceptible to humans at the end of February)..

For me the decisive point is that Igor B's wolverine theory can only explain one part of the DPI: the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar.

For the rest, i.e. the death of the nine, no one should evade Ockham's razor which favours theories that include the action of human attackers determined to leave no survivors.

In a nutshell and in the spirit of Vladimir Askinadzi (https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?filter_page=4&rbid=18461), I could assertively say;

- I thought a lot about this and came to the conclusion that no spontaneous force, no falls on rocks, no snow collapses can explain the death of these nine healthy and fit guys. They could not just freeze in those conditions, even while vomiting and weakened by the terrifying spray of a volverine as they had been able to stand and walk several metres on a slippery slope.

Well, again, all these very simply explainable injuries....

Ask me. I do not know everything. But little by little, thanks to the many debates that I can read on this website and others, the "HOW", "WHO" and "WHY" questions are becoming clearer and the vice is tightening around the image of the attackers.

Just look and think calmly about these facts.

https://dyatlovpass.com/death
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries?filter_page=2&rbid=18461

There are none so deaf as those who do not want to hear.
There are none so blind as those who do not want to see and who keep their eyes wide shut.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
To explain the exit from the tent and the descent to the cedar, the idea of the wolverine's chemical weapon intervention can be harmoniously incorporated into my TOK** theories according to two fairly similar scenarios (your choice):

Scenario N° 1
A wolverine tamed in the manner of a performing dog has been trained to enter shelters that its(her ?) master designates.
The master (attacker) pointing to the tent: Go on, dear, there's plenty to eat there.

In case of difficulty or defensive reaction in the shelter, the wolverine sprays spontaneously and returns unharmed to its master (who can reward it(her) with a good piece of pork).

The wolverine can be transported from North-2 to the tent, either on human back or using a reindeer, in a comfortable basket.

Moreover, the idea of using trained animals is not original. Here is a military example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tank_dog

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/12/03/article-2517413-19CE2A9300000578-414_634x446.jpg)

Scenario N° 2
Siberian trappers collect glandular fluid from several wolverines (possibly for several years) and then sell it to the attackers
Then it is easy with a large syringe and a hose to build a device to silently and quietly spray a large amount of toxic liquid inside the 5 m³ tent.
The result is not debatable: the surprised hikers immediately go out in an irrational way, suffocating and vomiting.

Then it is likely that the hikers themselves decide to go down to the cedar tree to shelter from the wind and light a fire, which they apparently did


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
But after .... the intervention of human attackers absolutely determined to take the lives of the 9 hikers constitutes the core of my TOK** theories.

All these variants have in common that there was no staging, or even attempted staging, on the Kholat Syakhl slope in early February 1959.
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on June 28, 2022, 07:11:12 PM
Hi Jean Daniel Reid's

Thank you. I do believe many of the theories, hypothesis have valid points.

Some of the theories may overlap or support ideas that others have. I do favour Igor b's wolverine because it is the most logical but  I do not rule out Teddy's or the involvement of outsiders.

Igor b goes into detailed accounts of the physical injuries and position of the bodies , links the findings of the deaths with clinical research , testimonies from people that have encountered  wolverines ( a Wolverine licking their face when they were asleep in a tent). He also supports this with the documents and statements , for example, markings on some of the clothes returned that would not wash off, the reaction of the search dogs at the pass from the helicopter.

Teddy's theory  is also of interest but for a different reason. Teddy looks at it from the documents and written statements and links events with other activities at the time which can not be ruled out and gives a lot to ponder.  It involves staging and a cover up and explains some of the inconsistency from written reports etc.

I also do not rule out , outsiders forcing them out of the tent. There are many versions of who , why and with what tools did they kill.. I often wonder about that lone Mansi hunter that was nearby the day before.

There's nothing to stop us from picking bits from different hypothesis and joining them together to come up with a satisfactory explanation of what happened to the hikers.

I now favour the Wolverine after dismissing the idea for several years . I found Igor's explanation annoyingly solid and complete.

However, I continue to read everyone's hypothesis as new evidence and observations come to light.

Igor's b theory would also work if you took away the Wolverine , changed it to someone throwing in some gas at the tent and then leaving and having no more input. It is that simple.
 
Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Jean Daniel Reuss on July 20, 2022, 03:53:47 PM

              Reply #60
...................................
 I do believe many of the theories, hypothesis have valid points.
Some of the theories may overlap or support ideas that others have.
......................................................

Igor B.'s theory explains very well the exit of the tent by the visit of a wolverine because he specifies several details.

1) ••• A temperature just below 0° C. For the hikers, this temperature seemed mild,
which explains why the hikers went out underdressed, as they might have thought to return quickly to the tent and stay out only a few minutes.

2) •••  In a small volume the effects of the spray were magnified.
See :
Catabatic Wind-Acute Stress Reaction-Cold Air Drops ---> Acute Stress Reaction
                            Lupos = Günter Wolf had evaluated:
                       Air volume tent = 3,5 m³

(I do not think it is enough to fire a shotgun in the air for the hikers to come out immediately without holding the axes in their hands).

3) •••  The stench dissuades them from returning immediately to the tent and encourages them to resort to another solution: lighting a fire near the cedar tree.



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

4) Together with Per Inge Oestmoen Oestmoen, I believe that the injuries found at the autopsy can only be explained by a hostile human attack.

  Theories Discussion  --->  General Discussion  --->    Refutation of the conclusions of expert Tumanov
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=51

( Reply# =  Coob# )

1/ Radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=59943 
pp=14-Coob#280    (261-280)

2/ Radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=60394 
pp=15-Coob#291    (281-300)   

3/ Forensic expert Tumanov contradicts himself in his article:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=91648 
pp=79-Coob#1577  (1561-1580)

4/ Miscellaneous:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1720&p=92884&#entry92884
pp=87-Coob#1727  (1721-1740)
 
5/ On self-harm of hands of the frozen
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1960&p=95223&#entry95223:
pp=99-Coob#1972  (1961-1980)

6/ When the abrasions happened can not be accurately determined:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1980&p=95314&#entry95314
pp=100-Coob#1982  (1981-2000)

7/ When the abrasions happened can not be accurately determined:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?showtopic=5133&st=1980&p=95361&#entry95361
pp=100-Coob#1985  (1981-2000)

8/ On the preservation of Vishnevsky (aka death) spots:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96097
pp=101-Coob#2004     (2001-2020)

9/ About dark blood in the heart:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=96112
pp=101-Coob#2005    (2001-2020)

10/ Again radio "Komsomolskaya Pravda":
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=106586
pp=106-Coob#2113    (2101-2120)


I am not competent in Vishnevsky stains and other difficult to interpret forensic clues.
For the moment I have more confidence in the conclusions of Eduard Tumanov, professor and expert in the Russian National University and Pirogov Institute (They were attacked) than in the conclusions of Igor B., who is an anonymous resident of Ekateringburg, (they fell and got injured or crushed).




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

5) Ziljoe, you seem to me to underestimate the possibilities of memory and intelligence of the wolverine, which have much in common with the boreal lynx, certain dogs or even the great apes.

If the (supposed wolverine) did not show up on the bodies of the hikers a few hours or days after its visit to the tent, I can only see 2 possible explanations:

 1) Either the wolverine was killed by a pack of wolves, a large bear that got angry and counter-attacked, a man with a gun... or others.

2) Or it joined the cozy basket of its master trainer who cuddled it and rewarded it for its efficiency.




Title: Re: Wolverine
Post by: Ziljoe on July 20, 2022, 08:32:23 PM
Hi Jean Daniel Reuss

There is little information on the Wolverine habits to this day but as I understand it....the Wolverine travel around 15 miles a day, a solitary animal out of mating season and has a large hunting habitat. It will hunt various beasts if it sees an opportunity or compete with wolves or bears over kills  but tries to avoid direct confrontation. It will fight a bear ,or wolves  and by what I've seen , seems to do great damage on the physical side of things.

It also has this spray like a skunk,  if I understand correctly, it has two separate types of spray, 1) where it marks it's food and territory 2) a different mixture in its defence spray. It is this 2nd spray that links the event's.

The Wolverine was not necessarily looking to attack the hickers, this must be understood., Rather the smell of food intrigued the Wolverine to the tent. They are reported to have a keen sense of smell and can detect food or small animals below several feet of snow.

The Wolverine would have no interest in the biscuits or pork lion that were in the tent after the spraying of its defence glan.

The hikers are now sprayed with the toxin and the tent with left over food. All the beasts in the area would be put off eating anything left over.

 Hence the search dogs not wanting to get off the helicopter 3 weeks later, they could detect the defence spray.  This is an important  incident when we take in the fact that it was so unusual that it was documented .  Hunting dogs may have been trained or familiar with the smell but these search dogs weren't.

I understand that you believe the injuries were caused by the human hand and I do read what you put forward Jean.