May 17, 2022, 05:13:22 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: My theory  (Read 13813 times)

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March 16, 2021, 04:37:34 PM
Reply #120

tenne

Guest
glowing fuzzy white, like a fire. about an inch and a half  long flying down the valley, very low, too low for a plane unless it was landing but it didn't land. and flew very slowly, so slow I thought it would crash
 

March 16, 2021, 04:50:48 PM
Reply #121
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Nigel Evans


Was there an airport/airfield in the valley?  If it was a helicopter would that be obvious? How wide was the sausage?
 

March 16, 2021, 05:33:16 PM
Reply #122

tenne

Guest
No airport in the area. Not a helicopter for sure, I work at the airport here and even the Sea Kings, the extremely large Canadian Air Force helicopters aren't that big and they have flashing lights on them plus they are loud, this was just one giant glowing silent light. width maybe 1/2 cm ? it was years ago but it was a sausage shape. My husband just reminded me about the 4th time. it was last year and 3 round orange balls in a sorta triangle shape flying very low. I saw it and my neighbour did. They were seen a few months ago by a few other people as well, not at the same time I saw them and I didn't see them this time. I didn't think to takea video of it, I'm old enough that I just enjoy seeing stuff, my first thought isn't to take a video or photo.

So seeing strange things in the sky isn't unusual for me so I really want to see a fire ball. ball lightening would really make my day (or night)
 

March 17, 2021, 02:22:09 AM
Reply #123
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Nigel Evans


No airport in the area. Not a helicopter for sure, I work at the airport here and even the Sea Kings, the extremely large Canadian Air Force helicopters aren't that big and they have flashing lights on them plus they are loud, this was just one giant glowing silent light. width maybe 1/2 cm ? it was years ago but it was a sausage shape. My husband just reminded me about the 4th time. it was last year and 3 round orange balls in a sorta triangle shape flying very low. I saw it and my neighbour did. They were seen a few months ago by a few other people as well, not at the same time I saw them and I didn't see them this time. I didn't think to takea video of it, I'm old enough that I just enjoy seeing stuff, my first thought isn't to take a video or photo.

So seeing strange things in the sky isn't unusual for me so I really want to see a fire ball. ball lightening would really make my day (or night)
Just for clarity, it sounds like your dimensions are as if holding up a ruler on a distant much larger object?"ball lightening would really make my day (or night)" - would you camp on a ridge to get closer for that video?
 

March 17, 2021, 04:54:13 AM
Reply #124

tenne

Guest
Yes, , like miles away the sausage was that long and glowing. It looked more like a comet if that makes sense slowly moving along the foothills, way below the mountains. No pulsing lights like a helicopter or plane, no search light on the ground if it was doing a rescue. This is the closest imagine I can find to what I saw, it was a long time ago. basically this slowly moving along the foothills. last for about 10 min then went out of sight around a bend


No way in winter, in the middle of no where would I camp on a slope to take a photo. We learn early in life that you don't play around with the cold. You play in it but not with it. Camp where its warm and you can change out of wet clothing and into dry and let your wet stuff dry. that's one of the main killers, losing body heat through wet clothing. which is why wool was so popular, it kept the body heat in when wet more than anything else. not great but better. I would dress really warm and hike up to a spot to take a photo but I would have a safe place to go back to



 

March 17, 2021, 05:14:22 AM
Reply #125
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Nigel Evans


 Maybe a longer version of this "sausage"?


I would dress really warm and hike up to a spot to take a photo but I would have a safe place to go back to - yes but if the conditions prevented that, say it would be one hours walk/climb to the ridge from the forest facing into snow/ice laden extremely high winds in the dark, then the choice is to give up the opportunity to observe and photograph or camp up there. Camping up there also buys you a great next day were you use the height to cruise down to the forest at the foot of Ortorten for a "luxurious" evening of hot food and drinks, sleep etc. You can create a snow fort to protect the tent and using the stove in the morning will warm up all your outer clothing, boots, tent etc. So that's the choice, do you throw away a historical opportunity or seize it?
 

March 17, 2021, 07:16:07 AM
Reply #126

tenne

Guest
well for me NO NO NO NO AND DID I SAY NO? It would be complete and utter stupidity to risk those temperature, that far away from help and with no way to signal for help. Maybe if I was younger and was accustomed  to have a cell phone to call for help and then almost instantly I get rescued I might risk it? But I wasn't.  Maybe that is why younger people think they would camp there, its possible.

For me,  growing up pre-cell phone, we thought about those things. Help was a long way away and there was no way to signal other than stamping an SOS into the snow and hoping someone saw it and/or if I was with other people, some one hiking out to get help.

The important thing to remember is the no heat. When you ski in the winter (or anything) you sweat. your clothing gets damp, your socks, shoes etc get damp. You have to be able to get out of the wet/damp clothing, get into warm dry clothing and get your other clothing dried out.

Maybe on e person alone might, stretching it two might. but 9 experienced outdoor people risking it to get a photo? I can't imagine that. And with an experienced ex soldier whom I assume learned to not panic or take stupid risks and he was older than them and they knew he was KGB (if that is what the comment "we can't refuse") so no.

I can see them camping and a couple of them hike up to take a photo while others stayed with the fire and if needed, could grab them and bring them back.

If I'm reading what you posted properly. you think they saw a light, decided to ski up a slope, set up camp, have a bite to eat and then head out to take a photo. I've personally never heard of a UFO hanging around for hours for people to get a photo but even if it did. camp at the cedar, hike up take photo, come back to tent, get warm.

The photo I posted was more like the one i saw. The only you posted I would call oval
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 07:20:50 AM by tenne »
 

March 17, 2021, 08:45:20 AM
Reply #127
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Nigel Evans


If I'm reading what you posted properly. you think they saw a light, decided to ski up a slope, set up camp, have a bite to eat and then head out to take a photo. No i'm thinking that this was a goal from before setting off (to photograph the lights which might have been well known by then based on pilot reports). Semyon boasted to friends that he would return famous and it's difficult to think of anything else that would find fame. N.B. it's believed he was outside with a camera....


At the labaz they could have ensured that they had spare dry clothing to wear as underclothes for that night. But i also think that their style of camping was a tougher experience. Personally i've backpacked with overnight stays in the snow in a nylon tent with a canvas inner tent in a down sleeping bag and high levels of humidity were just something i tolerated. Granted it was -5C not -15C and a modern foam bedroll helped but i think it's doable.
 

March 17, 2021, 09:23:31 AM
Reply #128

tenne

Guest
I don't think it was doable, not only was it cold but their tent was exposed to the wind, which considerably lowers the temperature, especially if it had holes or rips in it (a jacket was stuffed into a hole for sure), they had no way to get into dry clothing the next morning for the rest of the trip and that could easily have killed them then. Sleeping with your clothing helps it dry but not enough that I would risk putting on yesterday's clothing for a winter ski. I am sure they would have thought that through, no one in their right mind goes out the next day in wet clothing from the day before in those temps. Remember that clothing technology has come a huge way for being warm and light and able to keep you dry. Wool and canvas are heavy, take forever to dry and nothing like starting out the next day in modern clothing.

A mile isn't a huge distance to have to make up the next day if it means a hot meal that night, the ability to dry clothing out, sleep comfortably and have a hot meal to start the long day.

They were young and fit. I can't imagine them saying "lets take the chance of freezing to death here on a slope with no heat and maybe get a photo" or "lets camp down here, have a hot meal, get the clothing drying and hike up to see if we can get a photo"
 

March 17, 2021, 12:08:52 PM
Reply #129

tenne

Guest
one more thing. while camping overnight in modern equipment in those warmer temperatures make it seem doable, don't forget: you have a cell phone (or way to contact help most likely) you are not a week away from any help if things go wrong. camping one or two nights and then going home to dry clothing, warm food and a soft bed is in no way comparable to camping for 16 days straight.

So if you want to understand what I think the mind set of the group would be the only way it so go camping in -20, with old fashioned equipment that doesn't dry well, cook, hike, set up and take down the tent every night etc.

Your mind set is much different for a 16 days out in the wilderness with only yourself or your group to count on, you don't take stupid chances.
 

March 17, 2021, 12:57:43 PM
Reply #130
Online

Manti


Aluminum was not yet popular for hiking supplies, the camping craze of the 1970's brought nylon tents and aluminum poles into the price range of more people.
In the photos from the search you can see multiple aluminium ski poles.


But another question I had after reading your theory is, what do you make of the cache site (labaz)? Was that also faked? Also why would there be a fear of them emigrating via the "borders"? This happened very far from any external border of Russia or the SU. Answered earlier in the thread
« Last Edit: March 17, 2021, 02:42:09 PM by Manti »
 

March 17, 2021, 01:47:08 PM
Reply #131

tenne

Guest
I read on ? that they were worried that Semyon was going to try to defect to find his son. There was also talk that part of the search was to make sure that  Aleksander? didn't defect and was found deceased. I thought it was strange myself as they seemed quite a ways from the border but more than a few mentions of it. P

Yes I think the Cache was faked, I think the soldiers, military skied back along the route and made it look like the 9 had come that way.

The part about the aluminum poles I found on line, talking about how equipment had changed and how heavy etc the old stuff was. I know the ski poles are metal but I have no idea what type. That could be wrong but according to what i read, it was uncommon to have expensive aluminum poles.
 

March 17, 2021, 02:10:43 PM
Reply #132
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Tenne. I like your descriptions of the experiences you had when you were younger. And what you have described is definitely not Fire Balls that fly randomly around and eventually burn out or just disappear. They are classic UFO descriptions. Even the timing. 4am is a typical time for such Events. I was on the phone to someone recently with over 30 years experience of UFO Research etc. He knows many people around the World and has contacts with the Military etc. You should equate your experience to what may have happened in 1959 to the Dyatlov Group.
DB
 

March 17, 2021, 02:13:02 PM
Reply #133
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Nigel Evans


one more thing. while camping overnight in modern equipment in those warmer temperatures make it seem doable, don't forget: you have a cell phone (or way to contact help most likely) you are not a week away from any help if things go wrong. camping one or two nights and then going home to dry clothing, warm food and a soft bed is in no way comparable to camping for 16 days straight.

So if you want to understand what I think the mind set of the group would be the only way it so go camping in -20, with old fashioned equipment that doesn't dry well, cook, hike, set up and take down the tent every night etc.

Your mind set is much different for a 16 days out in the wilderness with only yourself or your group to count on, you don't take stupid chances.


You seem to be ignoring that the nights in the forest were warm and dry and the only exception was at the ridge. I think one night behind a snow wall is doable, they were young and fit and keen to push themselves. Worst case is that you get the stove going and leave before sunrise.
 

March 17, 2021, 02:41:30 PM
Reply #134
Online

Manti


yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps

Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Do you really think an experienced Group of Hikers would camp in on an open slope in winter without heat and leave in their barefeet?

How about what the Chivrauy group did, more than a dozen years later!  And the Dyatlov group did not leave the tent without at least two pair of socks on, from what I understand.  If your boots are frozen, you simply can't use them, and that's what happens if you place them away from a source of heat (I've read more than one account in which hikers/climbers say they sleep with their boots next to them, in the sleeping bag, for this reason).  So your tent is collapsing, let's say because it's got a layer of ice or heavy snow on one of the long sides, and you can't get that off no matter what you can think of or try, what do you do then?  They decided to make sure the tent wasn't totally destroyed and thought they could sew it up again in the morning.  There were a lot of branches torn off trees down by the treeline, so perhaps the idea was to bring some of that back to the tent and use the stove to warm up/dry out the frozen items as well as sew up the tent.

And think about what would have happened if they set up the tent down at the treeline and the same thing happened to the tent, how much better off are they?  They may have still tried to dig out a "den" and then accidentally fell onto the rocky creek.  The key mistake seems to have been not using the stove to prevent heavy snow or ice buildup, though perhaps that would not have happened down at the treeline.  Most videos on Youtube show you how to surive under such conditions, not how to fail and get yourself in trouble, which is why a reconstruction would really help in this case.


They all had ski boots and felt boots (valenki) which were kept dry for wearing around camp. Nicolai was wearing his, Rustem only had one.
I think this is key, Rustem wearing only one valenki and its pair missing. Among the many indicators this is probably the clearest that they fled as fast as they could. This means there was a severe, immediate threat at the tent. "Tent collapsing due to ice/snow buildup" is not such a threat. I think it is a good mental exercise to imagine that YOU are camping on that slope in that tent, no matter for what reason. What could make you flee without putting on the other valenki?


I think this is a good because there are so few possible answers. For example, you notice a bear walking toward the tent... Walking away is not any safer than staying put, the bear might naturally follow fleeing prey. Or, a meteorite explodes in the sky. Sure you would jump out of the tent to look... and then go back in a few minutes later. Or... Someone appears with a shotgun and asks you to leave, in this case you might run away but instead of all nine running in the same direction you'd all want to run in different directions and ones that offer more "cover" like uphill for example.


Anyone who can answer this is closer to the solution and yes I do believe "they never camped there" is a possible explanation.
 

March 17, 2021, 05:40:18 PM
Reply #135

tenne

Guest
I agree and when we find out what really happened, it will fill in all the blanks. The fact we can't fill them in means we haven't found the right answer yet.
 

March 18, 2021, 03:42:05 AM
Reply #136
Offline

Nigel Evans


Electrical discharge is very sudden and it burns... Tempalov said that there were signs that the group stood nearby as if to assess to situation.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 03:58:23 AM by Nigel Evans »
 

March 18, 2021, 08:49:34 AM
Reply #137

tenne

Guest
Doing more research it seems that one of the motivations behind the intense search was to find Aleksander's body because they were worried he had defected. If they had that worry after then they had it before, which would make sense why Seymon was inserted into the group.  It also means that THEY knew the group was in that area and I think that is important

I think that Aleksander was being groomed for a position with the KGB or something like that. He was sent to the university  to develop relationships within that base of workers as a mole.

So Seymon would have two objectives, keep an eye on Aleksander to see if he is going to run and to see how he handles himself under pressure, can he work with a team, is he willing to put the hardwork in etc

Group gets to where they parted ways and the first time they try the sled they know it won't work. they even put something about it in the satirical newsletter they made, about a sled only working on the train.

They decide that since they are there, they might as well stick around and have a holiday. I didn't realize that they had to leave a letter on the top of the pass to prove they were there so I no longer think they were trying to fool anyone. Most of the money had been spent on food etc, so to go back would be a waste. Perhaps they decided they would pay the club back. That would fit in with what is said about their character.

So they spent time skiing around that area and end up setting off a land mine or a boobie trap. The 4 that are found in the ravine were the closest to it and received the worst injuries, then the two under the cedar and lastly the 3 but they were just knocked out by the blast and froze to death.

When the military arrives on scene, alerted either by the blast or an alarm, they find that they have killed the two KGB members that they knew were in the area, but they didn't  know they hadn't left the area

So the cover up begins. They do not want to admit that they killed two KGB members so they need to come up with a cover story. they knew where the group was going and decide that the furthest away point is the pass. that will buy them more time to "find" them

bodies, tent and equipment and soldiers are loaded on helicopters and flown to the pass and dropped off on the slope. I am going to assume that their original plan was to implicate the Mansi in the attack so they staged the tent to look like they had cut their way out because they were afraid, then soldiers walked down to the cedar (to leave footprints to be found) and dropped off the 2 bodies. because of the injuries they had sustained in the blast the soldiers made a fire, cut down tree branches etc.



the 3 who froze where dumped off to make it look like they were walking back up the slope, one may have still been alive or kept in a warmer place and that explains the melted snow under the body.

the 4 with the most horrific injuries are dropped from the top of the ravine to the creek below to make it look like they fell

Their clothing was adjusted to make it look like they had been in the tent and two outside for guard duty because if the group was afraid of the Mansi, they would place a guard or at least that is what the soldiers would do so that is what they thought the group would do. they didn't notice the camera around Seymon neck, it fell out after some time in the water. The photos of the lights could be what drew them to the area that the blast happened or it could be some tech issue, I've read both ideas and both makes sense to me

now the soldiers start to ski back, make up the cache, which would be standard practice for a group attempting the pass and they would know that. ski back to civilization so now there is a ski trail to follow to the  bodies.

last known confirmed contact was jan 28, Feb 26, they find the tent. that is almost a month for the skiers to spend some time skiing around, taking photos of the fun they are having, that's why they didn't bother with landmark photos or photos to prove the days. and plenty of time for the bodies and equipment to be flown there, things set up and the soldiers ski back

Problem is, the cover up was done in a hurry and not well done. which is why the evidence doesn't fit the scene.

Given the amazing cover ups done in history, like the suicide victim that made the German's believe a different location for the invasion to the fact that Patton had a fake army that they managed to convince the axis was real, this isn't even a blip on the difficult cover up business.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2021, 08:55:02 AM by tenne »
 

March 18, 2021, 11:34:03 AM
Reply #138

trekker

Guest
So they spent time skiing around that area and end up setting off a land mine or a boobie trap.

None of them had wounds matching to typical land mine wounds. 50 grams of explosive with contact fuze is enough to tear off feet from ankle. None of them had shrapnel wounds typical to bounding anti-personnel mine like OZM family of mines.

 

March 18, 2021, 03:05:57 PM
Reply #139

tenne

Guest
I have no idea what sort of explosion went off. There has been a lot of speculation of different types of explosions that would leave those types of injuries.  There are too many types of boobie traps for me to speculate what it could have been the one to cause it.
 

March 18, 2021, 08:10:04 PM
Reply #140
Online

Manti


Ok so here's one thing.. I've read about the army staying there after the student search party left from March to May and perhaps beyond, and continuing the search... if there was a coverup it makes sense to have the students conduct and bungle the initial search but if the army (at least someone higher up in the chain) know exactly what happened, why waste military resources and time continuing the search after that?
 

March 19, 2021, 02:47:59 AM
Reply #141
Offline

Nigel Evans


It wasn't just a student search party, there was a team of KGB always on site and one mystery group all dressed in the same black sheepskin coats appeared for awhile, others included a military unit to sweep with mine detectors! The leader of the whole group was a Colonel connected to the university so military.


But the use of civilians is curious imo given the heavy hand of Moscow controlling the Sverdlovsk Prosecutors office (having moved the case from Ivdel). It suggests that they were unconcerned with common gossip as long as the official line was death from hypothermia.



 

March 19, 2021, 03:43:00 AM
Reply #142
Online

Manti


As far as I know in the beginning there were student (and ex-student) only search parties. Before finding the tent. For example the group that went to Otorten. They could very well have been the ones finding the bodies so it's a risk not to add KGB there.


To me the fact that the search was continued until all were found means the "authorities" didn't know what happened. So if it's a coverup it's by some intermediate, almost "rogue" element who didn't inform Moscow or even the local party leadership in Sverdlovsk.
 

March 19, 2021, 04:36:23 AM
Reply #143
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Nigel Evans


As far as I know in the beginning there were student (and ex-student) only search parties. Before finding the tent. For example the group that went to Otorten. They could very well have been the ones finding the bodies so it's a risk not to add KGB there. Ok there's the search party 1 = finding the tent and search party 2 = looking for the last four bodies.


To me the fact that the search was continued until all were found means the "authorities" didn't know what happened. So if it's a coverup it's by some intermediate, almost "rogue" element who didn't inform Moscow or even the local party leadership in Sverdlovsk. No it's a paradox, i'd agree with your statement except that Okishev and Ivanov clearly state the intense control of the situation from Moscow. Klinov is listed as attending all of the first five autopsies (presumed to be to ensure a verdict of death from hypothermia). When the ravine four are discovered their condition turns that upside down but Urakov travels from Moscow to Sverdlovsk to ensure that the case is just shutdown.
 

March 19, 2021, 07:54:52 AM
Reply #144

tenne

Guest
Ok so here's one thing.. I've read about the army staying there after the student search party left from March to May and perhaps beyond, and continuing the search... if there was a coverup it makes sense to have the students conduct and bungle the initial search but if the army (at least someone higher up in the chain) know exactly what happened, why waste military resources and time continuing the search after that?

Because they can't admit they know. They would rather waste resources and pretend to not know
 

March 19, 2021, 07:55:47 AM
Reply #145

tenne

Guest
As far as I know in the beginning there were student (and ex-student) only search parties. Before finding the tent. For example the group that went to Otorten. They could very well have been the ones finding the bodies so it's a risk not to add KGB there.


To me the fact that the search was continued until all were found means the "authorities" didn't know what happened. So if it's a coverup it's by some intermediate, almost "rogue" element who didn't inform Moscow or even the local party leadership in Sverdlovsk.

That is 100% possible and an excellent idea. thank you
 

March 19, 2021, 07:57:42 AM
Reply #146

tenne

Guest
It wasn't just a student search party, there was a team of KGB always on site and one mystery group all dressed in the same black sheepskin coats appeared for awhile, others included a military unit to sweep with mine detectors! The leader of the whole group was a Colonel connected to the university so military.


But the use of civilians is curious imo given the heavy hand of Moscow controlling the Sverdlovsk Prosecutors office (having moved the case from Ivdel). It suggests that they were unconcerned with common gossip as long as the official line was death from hypothermia.

Yup, as long as the deaths were being investigated as happening in the pass and not where it actually happened, they were fine. Don't forget, they wanted the bodies found and wanted everyone to believe it happened there. they just didn't do a good job of it.
 

March 19, 2021, 08:42:43 AM
Reply #147
Offline

Nigel Evans


It wasn't just a student search party, there was a team of KGB always on site and one mystery group all dressed in the same black sheepskin coats appeared for awhile, others included a military unit to sweep with mine detectors! The leader of the whole group was a Colonel connected to the university so military.


But the use of civilians is curious imo given the heavy hand of Moscow controlling the Sverdlovsk Prosecutors office (having moved the case from Ivdel). It suggests that they were unconcerned with common gossip as long as the official line was death from hypothermia.

Yup, as long as the deaths were being investigated as happening in the pass and not where it actually happened, they were fine. Don't forget, they wanted the bodies found and wanted everyone to believe it happened there. they just didn't do a good job of it.
Do you understand that when i'm talking about Moscow i'm talking about Urakov (Deputy Prosecutor General) the second most senior officer in the entire Soviet legal system. Urakov's boss (Prosecutor General) sat at the same table as Khrushchev (i presume). So i cannot accept that this was some unfortunate bungle by some local goons or a scruffy murder that cost nine lives, something very very important had to be hidden. But they didn't know what happened to Alexander who would have been of interest to the West, so they had to find his body. But on his discovery Urakov went to Sverdlovsk to shut the case down in person.

So this seems to be one of the core questions - "What was it that Moscow had to keep hidden?", remember Ivanov hinted that the price of disobedience would be worse than a firing squad.
 

March 19, 2021, 01:08:04 PM
Reply #148
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Electrical discharge is very sudden and it burns... Tempalov said that there were signs that the group stood nearby as if to assess to situation.

What were those signs ! ?
DB
 

March 19, 2021, 01:16:30 PM
Reply #149
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Doing more research it seems that one of the motivations behind the intense search was to find Aleksander's body because they were worried he had defected. If they had that worry after then they had it before, which would make sense why Seymon was inserted into the group.  It also means that THEY knew the group was in that area and I think that is important

Problem is, the cover up was done in a hurry and not well done. which is why the evidence doesn't fit the scene.

Given the amazing cover ups done in history, like the suicide victim that made the German's believe a different location for the invasion to the fact that Patton had a fake army that they managed to convince the axis was real, this isn't even a blip on the difficult cover up business.

Can you give us some proof about that motivation  ! ?  Problem is there is absolutely no proof that this was a cover up.
DB