December 03, 2021, 08:30:27 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: My theory  (Read 9209 times)

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March 10, 2021, 01:59:19 PM
Reply #60
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ash73


Where is any evidence of an avalanche? the snow on the tent looked shoveled on to me and an avalanche started by other means would still take out the ski poles etc and the tent would have been swept down the mountain with the snow.

I think quite a lot of work was done clearing snow before the photo was taken. We're only talking about a few cubic metres of snow above the tent collapsing, where they cut into the slope; and you'll notice two people are standing precisely where that layer should be. Why is the near side of the tent flush with the slope, there should be a drop? Unfortunately we don't have any photos looking up the slope, more search team incompetence.

How do you know where the photo of the blizzard was taken? it could have been anywhere. its only conjecture it was setting up the tent on the slope

Well, they were digging something. If it wasn't the tent it must be the storage, and there are some problems with that as you know.
 

March 11, 2021, 03:57:01 PM
Reply #61
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps

Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.
DB
 

March 11, 2021, 04:00:30 PM
Reply #62
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
They didn't close the area down, they just banned official sports hikes for a period of 3 years.

To all intents and purposes the Authorities closed the area off for several years. I had a minor debate in this Forum with WAB about it.
DB
 

March 12, 2021, 08:50:03 AM
Reply #63
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ash73


They didn't close the area down, they just banned official sports hikes for a period of 3 years.

To all intents and purposes the Authorities closed the area off for several years. I had a minor debate in this Forum with WAB about it.

Do you have a link? I'd be interested to read it.
 

March 12, 2021, 11:15:15 AM
Reply #64

tenne

Guest
yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps



Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Then what is your explanation for having to constantly repair the tent as indicated in the diaries?

Canvas is an extremely strong fabric. I have never had to sew a tent when I put it up
« Last Edit: March 12, 2021, 11:22:01 AM by tenne »
 

March 12, 2021, 11:26:59 AM
Reply #65
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Investigator


yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps



Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Then what is your explanation for having to constantly repair the tent as indicated in the diaries?

Canvas is an extremely strong fabric. I have never had to sew a tent when I put it up

From what I understand, they were using two World War II tents that were sewn together.  Until you recreate that under the same conditions you will always be guessing.  However, you can try to do something similar to see if the tent starts to ice up or build up with heavy snow, to a degreee that it might start to collapse two old, worn canvas tents sewn together in the middle.  If one claims the diaries were faked, the burden would be on that person to present strong evidence to that effect, not "strange coincidences" and the like (the stuff of the typical "conspiracy theory").
 

March 12, 2021, 01:20:33 PM
Reply #66

tenne

Guest
Well, I was reading the diaries to the old trapper and he was the one who said wait, why are they sewing it that often? Canvas doesn't need to be sewn every time you use it unless its rotten.

Two old WW2 tents would be as a minimum 14 years old if they were made at the end of the war. From what I could find
"How long can you keep a canvas tent in the winter?
On that basis, you could use it for 2 summers if up for half the year, or 3 summers if up for less. Canvas would deteriorate over summer due to UV exposure"

"The dutch measure tents 'age' in weeks of use rather than years. They say that a De Waard or similar with high quality canvas has on average 50 weeks use lifespan."


So at least 14 year old canvas tent?
 

March 12, 2021, 01:25:30 PM
Reply #67

tenne

Guest
yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps

Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Do you really think an experienced Group of Hikers would camp in on an open slope in winter without heat and leave in their barefeet?
 

March 12, 2021, 02:06:26 PM
Reply #68
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
They didn't close the area down, they just banned official sports hikes for a period of 3 years.

To all intents and purposes the Authorities closed the area off for several years. I had a minor debate in this Forum with WAB about it.

Do you have a link? I'd be interested to read it.

You will have do a lot of reading, I cant remember exactly where in the Forum.
DB
 

March 12, 2021, 02:08:17 PM
Reply #69
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps



Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Then what is your explanation for having to constantly repair the tent as indicated in the diaries?

Canvas is an extremely strong fabric. I have never had to sew a tent when I put it up

The question is what is meant by constantly ?  Once a day ? Once a week. Or what ?
DB
 

March 12, 2021, 02:15:46 PM
Reply #70
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well, I was reading the diaries to the old trapper and he was the one who said wait, why are they sewing it that often? Canvas doesn't need to be sewn every time you use it unless its rotten.

Two old WW2 tents would be as a minimum 14 years old if they were made at the end of the war. From what I could find
"How long can you keep a canvas tent in the winter?
On that basis, you could use it for 2 summers if up for half the year, or 3 summers if up for less. Canvas would deteriorate over summer due to UV exposure"

"The dutch measure tents 'age' in weeks of use rather than years. They say that a De Waard or similar with high quality canvas has on average 50 weeks use lifespan."


So at least 14 year old canvas tent?

If you look at the Photos of the Tent after it was recovered for Investigation you will notice that it doesnt look Rotten. The Cuts look positive with no signs or Fabric falling off etc.
DB
 

March 12, 2021, 02:23:02 PM
Reply #71
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps

Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Do you really think an experienced Group of Hikers would camp in on an open slope in winter without heat and leave in their barefeet?

Well obviously they did camp in an exposed location. They did abandon their Tent not dressed properly. They may have camped there because they were frightened of something en route.
DB
 

March 12, 2021, 02:41:16 PM
Reply #72

tenne

Guest
Then I don't see why you are having trouble understanding that a minimum 14 year canvas tent that was rotten would be used,given their lack of good judgment in this case. If it has to be sewn every time they use it. its rotten
 

March 12, 2021, 03:06:49 PM
Reply #73
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KFinn


Then I don't see why you are having trouble understanding that a minimum 14 year canvas tent that was rotten would be used,given their lack of good judgment in this case. If it has to be sewn every time they use it. its rotten

Testimony by other students in the UPI Sports club discuss the poor quality and condition of club equipment.  See Sogrin's statement in the case times.
-Ren
 

March 12, 2021, 06:03:54 PM
Reply #74
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Investigator


yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps

Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Do you really think an experienced Group of Hikers would camp in on an open slope in winter without heat and leave in their barefeet?

How about what the Chivrauy group did, more than a dozen years later!  And the Dyatlov group did not leave the tent without at least two pair of socks on, from what I understand.  If your boots are frozen, you simply can't use them, and that's what happens if you place them away from a source of heat (I've read more than one account in which hikers/climbers say they sleep with their boots next to them, in the sleeping bag, for this reason).  So your tent is collapsing, let's say because it's got a layer of ice or heavy snow on one of the long sides, and you can't get that off no matter what you can think of or try, what do you do then?  They decided to make sure the tent wasn't totally destroyed and thought they could sew it up again in the morning.  There were a lot of branches torn off trees down by the treeline, so perhaps the idea was to bring some of that back to the tent and use the stove to warm up/dry out the frozen items as well as sew up the tent.

And think about what would have happened if they set up the tent down at the treeline and the same thing happened to the tent, how much better off are they?  They may have still tried to dig out a "den" and then accidentally fell onto the rocky creek.  The key mistake seems to have been not using the stove to prevent heavy snow or ice buildup, though perhaps that would not have happened down at the treeline.  Most videos on Youtube show you how to surive under such conditions, not how to fail and get yourself in trouble, which is why a reconstruction would really help in this case.
 

March 13, 2021, 04:29:24 AM
Reply #75
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Nigel Evans


yup, cause people have to sew their tent up every time they use it. why didn't I know that? I must have missed that in my camping time. opps

Do you really think that an experienced Group of Hikers would go on such an expedition with a rotten Tent ! ? They would have inspected all of their equipment beforehand.

Do you really think an experienced Group of Hikers would camp in on an open slope in winter without heat and leave in their barefeet?

How about what the Chivrauy group did, more than a dozen years later!  And the Dyatlov group did not leave the tent without at least two pair of socks on, from what I understand.  If your boots are frozen, you simply can't use them, and that's what happens if you place them away from a source of heat (I've read more than one account in which hikers/climbers say they sleep with their boots next to them, in the sleeping bag, for this reason).  So your tent is collapsing, let's say because it's got a layer of ice or heavy snow on one of the long sides, and you can't get that off no matter what you can think of or try, what do you do then?  They decided to make sure the tent wasn't totally destroyed and thought they could sew it up again in the morning.  There were a lot of branches torn off trees down by the treeline, so perhaps the idea was to bring some of that back to the tent and use the stove to warm up/dry out the frozen items as well as sew up the tent.

And think about what would have happened if they set up the tent down at the treeline and the same thing happened to the tent, how much better off are they?  They may have still tried to dig out a "den" and then accidentally fell onto the rocky creek.  The key mistake seems to have been not using the stove to prevent heavy snow or ice buildup, though perhaps that would not have happened down at the treeline.  Most videos on Youtube show you how to surive under such conditions, not how to fail and get yourself in trouble, which is why a reconstruction would really help in this case.


They all had ski boots and felt boots (valenki) which were kept dry for wearing around camp. Nicolai was wearing his, Rustem only had one.
 

March 13, 2021, 07:12:02 AM
Reply #76

tenne

Guest
Well, I was reading the diaries to the old trapper and he was the one who said wait, why are they sewing it that often? Canvas doesn't need to be sewn every time you use it unless its rotten.

Two old WW2 tents would be as a minimum 14 years old if they were made at the end of the war. From what I could find
"How long can you keep a canvas tent in the winter?
On that basis, you could use it for 2 summers if up for half the year, or 3 summers if up for less. Canvas would deteriorate over summer due to UV exposure"

"The dutch measure tents 'age' in weeks of use rather than years. They say that a De Waard or similar with high quality canvas has on average 50 weeks use lifespan."


So at least 14 year old canvas tent?

If you look at the Photos of the Tent after it was recovered for Investigation you will notice that it doesnt look Rotten. The Cuts look positive with no signs or Fabric falling off etc.

You can't tell canvas is rotten from looking at a photo of it. The way to tell is have it in your hands and pull. when it rips, its rotten. Cuts are not rips. cuts have clean edges, rips usually don't. so how the fact the cuts have clean edges prove it isn't rotten is escaping me as why you think that is proof
 

March 13, 2021, 10:22:41 AM
Reply #77
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Nigel Evans


Well, I was reading the diaries to the old trapper and he was the one who said wait, why are they sewing it that often? Canvas doesn't need to be sewn every time you use it unless its rotten.

Two old WW2 tents would be as a minimum 14 years old if they were made at the end of the war. From what I could find
"How long can you keep a canvas tent in the winter?
On that basis, you could use it for 2 summers if up for half the year, or 3 summers if up for less. Canvas would deteriorate over summer due to UV exposure"

"The dutch measure tents 'age' in weeks of use rather than years. They say that a De Waard or similar with high quality canvas has on average 50 weeks use lifespan."


So at least 14 year old canvas tent?

If you look at the Photos of the Tent after it was recovered for Investigation you will notice that it doesnt look Rotten. The Cuts look positive with no signs or Fabric falling off etc.

You can't tell canvas is rotten from looking at a photo of it. The way to tell is have it in your hands and pull. when it rips, its rotten. Cuts are not rips. cuts have clean edges, rips usually don't. so how the fact the cuts have clean edges prove it isn't rotten is escaping me as why you think that is proof


  • The "sewing often" could be referring to seams and additional loops not the canvas fabric itself.
  • the state of the canvas fabric does seem to be rotten when found but you can't argue this in isolation to other factors, tanned hands and face, purple glow on clothing which point at a chemical agent.
 

March 13, 2021, 10:55:44 AM
Reply #78
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RMK


Then I don't see why you are having trouble understanding that a minimum 14 year canvas tent that was rotten would be used,given their lack of good judgment in this case. If it has to be sewn every time they use it. its rotten

Testimony by other students in the UPI Sports club discuss the poor quality and condition of club equipment.  See Sogrin's statement in the case times.
Yes, good point.  Sogrin says: "About the equipment. the provision of the equipment was as for any other hiking group. And the equipment is disgusting...Tents are 4-5 years old."
 

March 13, 2021, 11:33:32 AM
Reply #79
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KFinn


So, we have to do regular upkeep on our canvas tents (about once a year.)  That includes sewing up tears or patching holes at the stress points, cleaning them so that dirt or mildew does not degrade the fibers, replacing grommets and stake loops.  Admittedly, our professionally made tents require less upkeep than the ones we made, lol.  But we do keep repair kits with us on all trips (waxed thread, canvas needles, extra grommets, extra canvas, the special rubber cement type stuff if you need a heavier duty patch, etc.)  Sometimes a bad wind storm is all it takes to tear along a stress points. It happens. 

If you read Churkina's forensic report, I believe she mentions several marks on the canvas where the knife that made the cuts to the fabric did not puncture.  To me, that would indicate that, at least those parts, of the tent canvas were fairly healthy.  Rotten canvas can be very brittle and if a sharp blade did not puncture the fabric...  At the same time, we have to consider whether the canvas was taut at the time it was cut, or if it was slackened any (making it harder to cut,) and any other confounding variables.
-Ren
 

March 13, 2021, 01:39:53 PM
Reply #80
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Investigator


So, we have to do regular upkeep on our canvas tents (about once a year.)  That includes sewing up tears or patching holes at the stress points, cleaning them so that dirt or mildew does not degrade the fibers, replacing grommets and stake loops.  Admittedly, our professionally made tents require less upkeep than the ones we made, lol.  But we do keep repair kits with us on all trips (waxed thread, canvas needles, extra grommets, extra canvas, the special rubber cement type stuff if you need a heavier duty patch, etc.)  Sometimes a bad wind storm is all it takes to tear along a stress points. It happens. 

If you read Churkina's forensic report, I believe she mentions several marks on the canvas where the knife that made the cuts to the fabric did not puncture.  To me, that would indicate that, at least those parts, of the tent canvas were fairly healthy.  Rotten canvas can be very brittle and if a sharp blade did not puncture the fabric...  At the same time, we have to consider whether the canvas was taut at the time it was cut, or if it was slackened any (making it harder to cut,) and any other confounding variables.

I agree.  While the seams between the two tents may have been pulling apart a bit that night, I think the more likely and major problem would have been an icy/heavy snow buildup on at least one of the long sides of the tent.  They see it bending inward and try to punch it off (hence the bruises to some of their knuckles).  That doesn't work and perhaps the situation looks like it is going to be critical (collapse) very soon, so they try to cut it in a way that might make sense if we knew the details.  Eventually they "succeed," but then have to figure out how to survive the night with no tent.
 

March 14, 2021, 02:46:04 PM
Reply #81
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Well, I was reading the diaries to the old trapper and he was the one who said wait, why are they sewing it that often? Canvas doesn't need to be sewn every time you use it unless its rotten.

Two old WW2 tents would be as a minimum 14 years old if they were made at the end of the war. From what I could find
"How long can you keep a canvas tent in the winter?
On that basis, you could use it for 2 summers if up for half the year, or 3 summers if up for less. Canvas would deteriorate over summer due to UV exposure"

"The dutch measure tents 'age' in weeks of use rather than years. They say that a De Waard or similar with high quality canvas has on average 50 weeks use lifespan."


So at least 14 year old canvas tent?

If you look at the Photos of the Tent after it was recovered for Investigation you will notice that it doesnt look Rotten. The Cuts look positive with no signs or Fabric falling off etc.

You can't tell canvas is rotten from looking at a photo of it. The way to tell is have it in your hands and pull. when it rips, its rotten. Cuts are not rips. cuts have clean edges, rips usually don't. so how the fact the cuts have clean edges prove it isn't rotten is escaping me as why you think that is proof

If you have read about the Inspection of the Tent at the Laboratory after the Incident you will notice that there is no mention of Rotten Canvas.
DB
 

March 14, 2021, 02:49:00 PM
Reply #82
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
So, we have to do regular upkeep on our canvas tents (about once a year.)  That includes sewing up tears or patching holes at the stress points, cleaning them so that dirt or mildew does not degrade the fibers, replacing grommets and stake loops.  Admittedly, our professionally made tents require less upkeep than the ones we made, lol.  But we do keep repair kits with us on all trips (waxed thread, canvas needles, extra grommets, extra canvas, the special rubber cement type stuff if you need a heavier duty patch, etc.)  Sometimes a bad wind storm is all it takes to tear along a stress points. It happens. 

If you read Churkina's forensic report, I believe she mentions several marks on the canvas where the knife that made the cuts to the fabric did not puncture.  To me, that would indicate that, at least those parts, of the tent canvas were fairly healthy.  Rotten canvas can be very brittle and if a sharp blade did not puncture the fabric...  At the same time, we have to consider whether the canvas was taut at the time it was cut, or if it was slackened any (making it harder to cut,) and any other confounding variables.

The point is that if the issue of Rotten Canvas was so important then it would have been mentioned in the Laboratory Investigation. There was no mention of the Tent being Rotten.
DB
 

March 15, 2021, 09:05:06 AM
Reply #83

tenne

Guest
well, then if the obviously extremely detailed, accurate and totally 100% honest and available information didn't mention it then it must not be an issue, because as we all know, they were totally 100% accurate and efficient in their investigation. No mistakes or omissions or missing stuff in this very accurate and trustworthy investigation. No sir! not in any way.
 

March 15, 2021, 09:38:41 AM
Reply #84
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Nigel Evans


I think it's in the case files that the people who dragged the tent from it's position to boot rock for helicopter pickup noted the poor condition of the tent resulting in tears.However it's interesting that the drawings from  the forensic analysis in no way match the photograph, as if the tent suffered damage between the two events. Do we know the date of the photograph?
 

March 15, 2021, 09:45:25 AM
Reply #85
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Nigel Evans


But i'd stress that the condition of the tent is imo pointing at the event that forced them to flee. Probably chemical in nature.
 

March 15, 2021, 01:24:27 PM
Reply #86
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
well, then if the obviously extremely detailed, accurate and totally 100% honest and available information didn't mention it then it must not be an issue, because as we all know, they were totally 100% accurate and efficient in their investigation. No mistakes or omissions or missing stuff in this very accurate and trustworthy investigation. No sir! not in any way.

We have to go with the Information that we have. The Evidence that we have. Yes some Evidence has gone missing and yes some of the Investigation leaves a lot to be desired.
DB
 

March 15, 2021, 01:32:39 PM
Reply #87
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think it's in the case files that the people who dragged the tent from it's position to boot rock for helicopter pickup noted the poor condition of the tent resulting in tears.However it's interesting that the drawings from  the forensic analysis in no way match the photograph, as if the tent suffered damage between the two events. Do we know the date of the photograph?

Presumably the photos were taken at the same time as the examination.  ''The examination was conducted in Sverdlovsk Forensic Laboratory 3-16 April 1959 by senior forensic expert Genrietta Eliseevna Churkina''.
DB
 

March 15, 2021, 01:38:18 PM
Reply #88
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
But i'd stress that the condition of the tent is imo pointing at the event that forced them to flee. Probably chemical in nature.


 But the Tent doesnt look like its been affected by some kind of Chemical  !  ?
DB
 

March 15, 2021, 02:29:01 PM
Reply #89

tenne

Guest
But i'd stress that the condition of the tent is imo pointing at the event that forced them to flee. Probably chemical in nature.

I never said that the tent had anything to do with them fleeing. I believe they were never there and were killed elsewhere and the scene staged. The tent being rotten could be a factor in their decision to not go any further.