February 05, 2023, 06:10:00 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death  (Read 16805 times)

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July 08, 2022, 03:54:25 PM
Reply #60
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Jean Daniel Reuss


                     Reply #59
.......it was a message, who was the recipient?
..............................................

Question : who was the recipient?

Answer :
Khrushchev's government and its members in general, and Khrushchev himself in particular.

Dyatlov's group was considered by the Vizhay Stalinists as propangandists in the service of Khrushchev's politics because it carried a trade union voucher, in which hit addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, "to render all possible assistance" in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU.
Unlike Blinov's group


Question : Can you imagine a small and local criminal group sending such a message .............. It would be suicidal.

Answer :
This was an attack of a terrorist nature.
 Indeed, it may have been suicidal: when the Kouachi brothers destroyed the anti-Islamic propaganda centre that was the editorial staff of Charlie Hebdo on 7 January 2015, they had little chance of escaping alive in the face of thousands of (gun-toting) police.



Question : Or the message was sent as a challenge, but from a group well aware of its own strength, able to survive the reply, and therefore not local and not small.

Answer :
This is also possible. Yes, as a challenge, a provocation.

The purge of the NKVD by the KGB was difficult and incomplete. All the powerful chiefs of the Gulag camps in the distant Siberian oblasts constituted a force that was neither local nor small. Moreover, all these well-organised notables of Stalin's time were united by a justified fear of losing their privileges and even of being sentenced to death.

I had in fact already answered this question.

Semyon Zolotaryov / Re: Could Zolotaryov be a saboteur?   Reply #14
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=734.msg16656#msg16656
...........
It was some of the mighty chiefs of the NKVD in charge of some of the camps of the Gulag linked probably to the Ivdellag.                       ;

Indeed the secret report of Khrushchev, of February 24, 1956, (which is very long and repetitive, but almost amusing to read), clearly implied the destruction of the NKVD (and therefore the liquidation of some officers guilty of atrocities) thanks to the efforts of the agents of the KGB (13 March 1954-6 November 1991), which was partly achieved until October 14, 1964 : "when the Presidium and the Central Committee each voted to accept Khrushchev's "voluntary" request to retire from his office...."

These officers (or already ex-officers) of the NKVD feared, with good reason (because like Josef Stalin, they had become typical psychopaths) of being judged and justly condemned to death as had been their most famous and excellent colleagues sentenced to death during the the Khrushchev Thaw period (1953-1964), for instance:
                    Bogdan Koboulov (1904-1953)
                    Lavrenti Beria(1899-1953)
                    Mikhaïl Ryoumine(1913-1954)
                    Viktor Abakoumov(1908-1954)
                    Vsevolod Merkoulov(1895-1954)
                    Amaïak Koboulov (1906-1955)
                    Boris Rodos(1905-1956)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Rodos
« Rodos was sentenced to death on February 26, one day after the Secret Speech. »


Question :... we are also the dumbest criminals ever.

Answer :
 Not as stupid as it sounds. For if the Stalinists and the opponents of the Thaw lost some battles, they finally managed to win the war by eliminating  Khrushchev on 14 October 1964 (albeit leaving him alive).
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

July 08, 2022, 04:04:33 PM
Reply #61
Online

Manti


It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body, then leaves it out in a secluded place in the middle of nowhere. It may never be found or be found as a skeleton. When the message is lost.

Instead, it is only an act to relieve one's anger. If it happened at all. But there is of course no proof that it happened. These may be natural posthumous changes. Also, in the cold, when under the influence of hypothermia, there are stages of uncontrollable shivering when it might be possible to accidentally bite one's own tongue in half...

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

July 08, 2022, 05:57:11 PM
Reply #62

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:50:36 PM by Charles »
 

July 08, 2022, 06:22:14 PM
Reply #63

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:50:18 PM by Charles »
 

July 09, 2022, 10:21:01 AM
Reply #64
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Jean Daniel Reuss


                     Reply #62
.............................................................
.........................................................
I am lost, dear Jean-Daniel, I can't follow you...

Thank you, Charles, for your very useful and relevant input.

So a small criminal organization, a "proto-mafia" of Vizhay, also motivated with politics, sent a message to "Khrushchev's government and its members in general, and Khrushchev himself in particular", killing and butchered 9 students from UPI?

Yes, that is about it.

proto-mafia

French sovietologists seem to have got into the habit of using the word "mafia" directly and without particular precautions. Example: 
Anne-Gabrielle Castagnet
The Russian mafia differs from other mafias (Italian, Chinese, South American, etc.) in several ways. It is more a question of atypical management of the relational network than of the methodical setting up of an organisation. It is not a secret society, but rather a method of action and a complex relationship with power.

motivated with politics

They were especially frightened of destalinization which could deprive them of their privileges and even take their lives

killing and butchered 9 students from UPI?

Freezing to death 1 or 2 zeks from time to time was easy. 9 students from UPI, that was a serious matter. You could not push it too far...


And they were not all immediately slaughtered by the KGB?

••• They were discreetly eliminated by the KGB from 6 February 1959.

••• Well, maybe not all of them. The most important one or ones may have found an exoneration.

If you were right, there would be list of inhabitants of Vizhay who disappeared right after the event, and you could tell us their names.
Where is the list of the members of this Vizhay proto-mafia who all suddenly disappeared in 1959?


••• If we had this list, the DPI would not be an enigma.

••• Note that if I understand correctly it is in fact this list that some forum members, like sarapuk hope to have one day.


Khrushchev survived Stalin era, he had Beria killed (he was more a predatory animal than Beria himself), and threatened the US with nuclear missiles in Cuba... you think he was a soft man who would not immediately send the hardest and deadliest reply to such a  "message" ?

••• It is not possible to summarize the complexity of the Khrushchevian era (1953-1964) in 2 lines.
 
••• I do not think that Khrushchev was a soft man because for many Soviet leaders "the end justified the means".
However Khrushchev was not a psychopath like Stalin and from 1954 onwards, political manners became less bloody. Here is a passage from wikipedia on this point:

In 1956, in the end of the power struggle, Khruschev was reaffirmed in his position as First Secretary :
Aftermath

Malenkov, Molotov, Kaganovich and Shepilov – the only four names made public – were vilified in the press and deposed from their positions in party and government. They were given relatively unimportant positions:

    Molotov was sent as ambassador to Mongolia
    Malenkov became director of a hydroelectric plant in Kazakhstan
    Kaganovich became director of a small potash works in the Urals
    Shepilov became head of the Economics Institute of the local Academy of Sciences of Kyrgyzstan

In 1958, Premier Bulganin, the intended beneficiary of the anti-party group's move, was forced to retire and Khrushchev became Premier as well.

In 1961, in the wake of further de-Stalinisation, Molotov, Melenkov, Kaganovich, and Shepilov were expelled from the Communist Party altogether and all lived mostly quiet lives from then on. Shepilov was allowed to rejoin the party by Khrushchev's successor Leonid Brezhnev in 1976 but remained on the sidelines.

Khrushchev also deposed Defense Minister Zhukov in 1961. Zhukov had assisted Khrushchev against the anti-party group, but the two developed significant political differences in the following years. Khrushchev alleged Bonapartism as a justification for Zhukov's removal.

Khrushchev's treatment of his opponents, in that they were vilified and humiliated but not physically oppressed, marked a departure from earlier practice in Soviet politics (as last seen in 1953 during the purge of Lavrenti Beria) – a development that was followed during later power struggles, such as Khrushchev's own deposition by Brezhnev in 1964 and the failed coup against Mikhail Gorbachev in August 1991.

••• The future is unpredictable. Small cause, huge effects.  In history, this is an expression that sometimes turns out to be true.


And it is all based on a voucher?

Yes, at least in a large measure.

But was Dyatlov's group the only one passing in the region having a voucher, or Blinov's the only group not having a voucher?

••• I do not know, it is not very significant.

••• What is sure, however, is that the voucher of the Dyatlov group was displayed and was very useful in simplifying matters between the local police and Krivonischenko in Serov on 24 January.

And if indeed it was rare, the group searched for geological samples in Northern 2 and Yudin took back a core, the locals could also have understood that the voucher was related to the sample, couldn't they? Why would they have interpreted the voucher in a political meaning rather that in the meaning of student gathering geological samples for their university?

••• I did not understand this passage.

••• There is no connection between the Voucher's role and the perfectly normal and insignificant fact that Yuri Yudin brought back worthless mineral samples or drill cores from the North-2 dump.


And what about Dubinina's encounter in Vizhay whith a local mafioso, it triggered a political and terrorist action against Khrushchev and its government?

Yes, that is exactly it : it triggered................


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

July 09, 2022, 11:41:52 AM
Reply #65

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:49:56 PM by Charles »
 

July 09, 2022, 12:40:42 PM
Reply #66

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:49:33 PM by Charles »
 

July 10, 2022, 06:53:59 AM
Reply #67
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Jean Daniel Reuss


                     Reply #66
.............................................................
 A *** ... You are making a circular argument here...........
.............................................................
 B *** ... A political motivation of a coup d'Etat ..........


 A *** I refute your objections of the circular argument with this small, very concise table, which you will easily understand since we are fellow citizens.
I apologise to the non-French speaking members of the forum who find this table unintelligible, but I will be able to give explanations later.

The Ivdellag guards were all NKVD or MVD functionaries, recruited during the Stalinist period (i.e. before 1953) since the Khrushchev regime no longer recruited guards but instead dismissed many of them.

B *** I have never invoked the idea of a coup d'état from Vishay, but that of a last gasp of agony of the Stalinist underground, which in 1957-58 was in full collapse.


°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
                                     Compared Heads of State
France - General de Gaulle (1958-1969)    <----------->       USSR - Nikita Krushchev (1953-1964)
 
                           Action or reform undertaken causing turmoil
Decolonisation of Algeria                 <----------->           De-Stalinisation and Dismantling of the Gulag

             Part of national population concerned and mostly dissatisfied
French inhabitants of Algeria (Pied noir) <-----------> Gulag guards, i.e.  Stalinists fonctionnaries of the NKVD or MVD

                             Approximate number of discontented people
a little over a million                   <----------->                a little under a million
 
              Part of the national population not concerned and mostly indifferent
French living in metropolitan France      <----------->       Soviet living in big cities far from Gulag camps

                       Some famous political opponents executed or shot
Jean Bastien-Thiry: 11 March 1963    <----------->     Lavrentiy Beria:   26 June 1953 or 23 December 1953
                                                            Vsevolod Merkulov: 23 December 1953
                                                            Bogdan Kobulov:    23 December 1953
                                                            Mikhail Ryumin:    22 July 1954
                                                            Viktor Abakumov:   19 December 1954
                                                            Amayak Kobulov:    26 February 1955
                                                            Boris Rodos:       20 April 1956


°°°°°°
To sum up my position simply, I am among those who think that the best explanatory hypothesis is that the 9 hikers were murdered.
My suspicions are becoming clearer, not about the KGB, some Mansis or escaped prisoners (zeks), etc., but about guards, or ex-guards, of the Ivdellag camps and who were therefore functionaries of the NKVD or MVD.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

July 10, 2022, 08:23:00 AM
Reply #68

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:46:52 PM by Charles »
 

July 10, 2022, 01:37:32 PM
Reply #69

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:47:01 PM by Charles »
 

July 10, 2022, 02:09:21 PM
Reply #70

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 09:47:08 PM by Charles »
 

July 12, 2022, 04:11:02 AM
Reply #71
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Jean Daniel Reuss



                          Reply #70
.....................

CHEGLAKOV - HAKIMOV --->
Quote
But they were not dismissed in 1953, their careers didn't suddenly stop under Krushchev !

Therefore we can logically deduce that Cheglakov and Hakimov are not guilty of the massacre of the 9 hikers.


RYAZHNEV - REMPEL - VALYAKYAVICHUS --->
Quote
For these ones, we have records that they met with the hikers. Inmates, not guards...

Rhyazhnev, Rempel, Valyakyavichus and all the residents of Settlement 41 (those who appear in the photographs as well as the more numerous ones who are not visible), are under house arrest.

In a more precise language, Rhyazhnev, Rempel, Valyakyavichus are persons who for precise (but complicated) juridical and legislative reasons have a legal status which in practical terms is equivalent to that of those commonly referred to under the general term of : under house arrest ("assignés à résidence", in French).

Is it necessary to add that the 5 persons mentioned above are not the only inhabitants of the relatively large region of Ivdel, Vizhay, Ivdellag and its adjoining areas (and therefore likely to be present at the Club or at the so-called hotel on 25 and 26 January 1959) ?
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

July 18, 2022, 02:58:13 PM
Reply #72
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss



                     Reply #61
• It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body,
• then leaves it out in a secluded place in the middle of nowhere. It may never be found or be found as a skeleton. When the message is lost.
• Instead, it is only an act to relieve one's anger.
• If it happened at all.
• But there is of course no proof that it happened. These may be natural posthumous changes.
• Also, in the cold, when under the influence of hypothermia, there are stages of uncontrollable shivering when it might be possible to accidentally bite one's own tongue in half...

Eventual general objection

It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body,

Answer from Sabine Lechtenfeld, forensic psychologist from Hannover, Germany :

...the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it. It also could be a symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk.



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Objection raised from Manti :

It's not a message when someone removes the eye or tongue from a body,
then leaves it out in a secluded place in the middle of nowhere. It may never be found or be found as a skeleton. When the message is lost.


My answer :
1 ••••
In 1959, Krushchev's government could not logically remain inactive in the face of such a clear and obvious provocation from its opposition movements

The slopes of Kholat Syakhl and the surrounding taiga were, of course, an uninhabited area, but it was not the South Pole....

On the contrary, we learn here that this whole area could often be traversed by a crowd of people practicing various professional or leisure activities.

(Mansi hunters, loggers, foresters, geologists, mineral prospectors regularly blowing up 5 kg mines, gold miners perhaps engaging in illegal trafficking, Russian hunters on holiday....etc.)

In addition, the Soviet authorities had secured the collaboration of some Mansi who were able (through training started in childhood) to interpret tiny clues detected in the wilderness: even old tracks in the snow, broken twigs, animal behaviour, bark...etc.

2 ••••
In fact, the Soviet authorities, with the KGB in the lead (which intervened effectively from 6 February), did not remain idle.

Two heavy (16-passenger) Mil Mi-4 helicopters and several observation and transport planes were deployed from Ivdel airfield

How many people participated in the search for the Dyatlov group?

Till the end of Feb were involved 46 men, mostly students.
After that were sent 5 more groups of students, each 5 to 10 ~ 45
Military railroad workers including the sappers (8+5) = 13
Ivdellag guards (military unit 6602) min of two interchanging groups = 20

All in total about 120 men.


3 ••••
What happened was that the first 5 corpses were discovered quickly after the discovery of the tent (and autopsied a few days later).
27 February: Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Dyatlov and Kolmogorova.
5 March: Slobodin.

For the last four (in the ravine) it was necessary to wait until 5 May, when the snow had not yet completely melted.

In any case, the last 4 corpses would certainly have been found as soon as the snow had melted completely (the end of June, I believe, but I could be wrong).

The bodies could not be washed away by the streams, as dams had been built in good time. (i.e. before the 5th of May).




4 ••••
The message could hardly be lost.

But as well as to the Krushchev government the message was a warning to all the population of Ivdel and of the ivdellag area :

" See what could happen to those who do not respect our laws (which are not those of the Kremlin)."

The message could hardly be lost and it was not lost.




°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
Objection raised from Manti :

Instead, it is only an act to relieve one's anger.

My answer :
 
1 ••••
Specifically, the massacre lasted for several hours and was spread over more than a kilometre. Anger was the cause of the stabbings in the canvas of the tent and of the trampoline exercises on the rib cages of Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

2 ••••
But the removal of the eyes and tongue is evidence of premeditation and the willingness to impress.

Indeed, it was necessary to plan in advance an attacker with a minimum of training to carry out these mutilations properly.
It was also necessary to provide light instruments such as a small spoon with edges previously sharpened with a grinding wheel.


3 ••••
Another clue to the TOK theory (which is to understand the subtle nuance between the two English adjectives: "intelligent" and "wise") was mentioned by :

     RidgeWatcher  : Altercation..> Altercation.. on July 07, 2020, 02:02:20 PM    ---> Reply #37

« I do believe that Dubinina said to much and her diary entries revealed this knowledge, unconsciously, with her uncustomary angst and anxiety. She was young, strong and brave but opinionated at age 21.»

The intelligent man knows what to say or what should be said.
The wise person knows whether he or she should say it or not.

Dubinina was an intelligent (and brave) girl but clearly not a wise person. I generally like to add fuel to the fire,

Zolotaryov being the most experienced and the oldest of the Ten was probably the wisest.
Thus Zolotaryov could intuitively sense the pycholgic stress in Vizhay on 25 and 26 January.
While the other 8 hickers (there was still Yuri Yudin) felt and understood absolutely nothing.

So the only two hikers (Dubinina and Zolotaryov) who could have spoken unconsciously recklesssly in Vizhay,, on 25 and 26 January, were the very ones whose bodies were found mutilated on 5 May.
This is a disturbing coincidence....

4 ••••
Another remark that goes in the same direction of premeditated mutilations
Kolgomorova       ---->    dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
 
The attacker specialised (or in charge) of mutilations had at first confused Dubinina with Kolgomorova.

When he realised that Kolmogorova (who fell first ten minutes after leaving the tent according to TOK) was not Dubinina, he stopped treating Kolgomorova and only had the opportunity to mutilate Dubinina several hours later.



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Objection raised from Manti :

If it happened at all. But there is of course no proof that it happened.

My answer :

1 ••••
Aleks Kandr has devoted a whole page in Russian to this subject

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3

2 ••••
DU did not record any traces of vital activity of "small wild animals" either near the bodies or on the bodies of the tourists, including the soft tissue of the face,

3 ••••
The first 5 bodies were left under a shallow layer of snow for about a month and were left untouched by the small wild animals. (As well as by the wolverine, but that's another subject).

4 ••••
It is worth paying attention to another, no less "mysterious" circumstance, which inexplicably influenced the choice of these "small wild animals": concentrating his gastronomic preferences only on the bodies of L. Dubinina and A(C). Zolotareva, in terms of eating not so much their soft facial tissues, but on the food of the tongue and eyeballs. The fact is that it was these two tourists who recorded in the EMS acts the most serious fractures of their ribs, probably the cause of their immediate death.
Agreed, there is something strange about the behavioural characteristics of "small wild animals", deliberately eating clean organs (tongue and eyeballs) in only two of the nine tourists who had multiple rib fractures.




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Objection raised from Manti :

Also, in the cold, when under the influence of hypothermia, there are stages of uncontrollable shivering when it might be possible to accidentally bite one's own tongue in half...

My answer :

Generally speaking, injuries and bitings of the tongue for various causes are not very rare, but it is exceptional that they result in a complete section in 2 parts.

Moreover, contractions of the jaw could only split a human tongue in two in front of the incisors.
All the important part behind the incisors would have remained very visible.
 The autopsy report states that the tongue is missing and not  simply cut off in two parts.


Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

December 16, 2022, 10:58:04 AM
Reply #73
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anna_pycckux