September 25, 2022, 02:09:33 PM
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Author Topic: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death  (Read 14827 times)

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January 10, 2021, 12:34:56 AM
Reply #30
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20vvk07


....do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? ... I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation!" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too!

Interesting!!  I've always thought Lyudmila's "evil as hell" mood was most likely simply PMS: she is so casual & matter of fact about it while still rather resenting it.  But I finally had to dismiss that idea because there were no feminine hygiene products (that I could discern) listed among the items recovered from the tent/backpacks/etc.

The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.
 

January 10, 2021, 12:36:48 AM
Reply #31
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20vvk07


....do you consider the moment that Lyudmila could have female problems? ... I will reveal a terrible secret for modern society: "In the USSR there were no personal hygiene products for women during menstruation!" Well, there was nothing. That's how it happened. So the same fabric that Lyudmila bought was very often used for underwear and for pads too!

Interesting!!  I've always thought Lyudmila's "evil as hell" mood was most likely simply PMS: she is so casual & matter of fact about it while still rather resenting it.  But I finally had to dismiss that idea because there were no feminine hygiene products (that I could discern) listed among the items recovered from the tent/backpacks/etc.
The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.
 

January 10, 2021, 07:51:59 AM
Reply #32
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mk


The problem is that such hygienic things were not in the whole USSR somewhere before the 80's. In the 50s, it could have been any rag, just any rag, which was then simply washed and reused.
It's difficult for me to imagine choosing cambric fabric specifically for a reusable pad.  It's a flat, tight weave--makes very nice shirts and other clothing--but seems like you'd want something more absorbent as a pad.  However, if any old rag would do, then you wouldn't use your nice new cambric.  I wonder whether there is anything else in the list of items that might have been used: possibly the cotton socks?  They would be absorbent, soft, and the sort of thing that wouldn't be embarrassing to hang up to dry in mixed company.  The list of items reports, "cotton socks, whole and torn, 25 pieces".  Torn socks could be put inside a whole sock and then used as a pad.   

At any rate, you've answered my question about the possibility of "evil as hell" mood being PMS--in my opinion, definitely possible!
 

January 10, 2021, 03:39:30 PM
Reply #33
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RidgeWatcher


The PMS aspect or possibility has been talked about at length somewhere on this forum and the general consensus is her "mad as hell" and 2 days mostly likely had nothing to do with PMS or her cycle. It's generally thought that some incident occurred at the Hotel in Vizhay or maybe prior.
 

April 08, 2021, 09:50:46 AM
Reply #34
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Dona


It was more than just Luda who had a premonition..

Igors mother did everything she could to stop him from going..  Then he said " this will be my last trip"

Someone else also  said this.. Georgy, I think.. " This will be my last trip"

Someone else was a no show

Another, transferred out,  suddenly.

Yuri Yudin.. He would have known early on if he was having sciatica.. I think he sensed something.

Then, the not one, but TWO, police encounters.. Zena said she had  never heard of such a thing  as to being arrested for singing, I think she said..

The guy who tried hard to talk them out of going that route.

The universe was speaking, but no one was listening..
 

April 15, 2021, 08:30:06 PM
Reply #35
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RidgeWatcher


I read Sebastien Unger's book The Perfect Storm about the Andrea Gail fishing vessel. A young man had signed up for that trip, he and his father drove three states away to the docked boat, the young man needed the money for school, they drove all night and arrived at the boat in the early dawn. He walked up to the boat and took one look at it and turned to his father and said "I am not getting on that boat" he and his father drove away. I think sometimes you are given a gift in your gut that steers you towards safety. I think Lyuda was having this same gut feeling but she was brave and she didn't turn back.
 

April 16, 2021, 08:16:13 AM
Reply #36
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Dona


Luda couldnt have left even if she wanted to. That would have left Zena, alone on a mountain with 7 men. That would not have been acceptable in those times.. or maybe even not allowed..
 

April 18, 2021, 08:26:14 AM
Reply #37
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Manti


Those times in Russia (and Europe) were different than in the anglo-saxon West. Gender equality was a big thing in the Soviet Union, and a communist ideal. They aimed for complete equality, in education, at work, equal rights, everything. There were statues in towns and cities dedicated to the "working woman". Women were actively encouraged to take up "masculine" professions. One girl hiking with 7 guys would not have been seen any differently to one guy hiking with 7 girls.
 

April 18, 2021, 09:07:11 AM
Reply #38
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Dona


 

April 18, 2021, 09:54:40 AM
Reply #39
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Manti


Deleted my nonsense comment, sorry..
« Last Edit: January 18, 2022, 06:56:29 PM by Manti »
 

April 18, 2021, 02:32:49 PM
Reply #40
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I was referring to propriety.
I know but, in my opinion, the idea that it would have been improper is foreign to Russian (and mainland European, except perhaps Dutch) culture. This idea originates in other cultures such as Victorian England (and Islam) and then spread to English colonies.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/839036?seq=1
 

Why Victorian England  ! ?
DB
 

April 18, 2021, 02:50:06 PM
Reply #41
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Dona


Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..
 

April 18, 2021, 02:54:06 PM
Reply #42
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Dona


Could be..  I dont know.. I know I wouldnt do it  neg1 grin1
 

April 19, 2021, 12:18:52 PM
Reply #43
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?
DB
 

April 19, 2021, 12:24:32 PM
Reply #44
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Dona


Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?

Daft, again..
 

May 19, 2021, 04:32:47 AM
Reply #45
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Geez, I would have thought you would have known this one She was one of your Queens..

What are you talking about ! ?

Daft, again..

Try thinking before you post stuff.
DB
 

June 20, 2021, 02:13:55 PM
Reply #46
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss




I do not have many changes to make since my post July 20, 2020, 03:43:19 PM     Reply #17
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg10160#msg10160

sarapuk is obviously right when he writes that there is no evidence to explain the DPI with certainty. But I think it is wise to take a cue from  Maya Leonidovna Piskareva 's a wise and lyrical statements when she is asking questions to  Mikhail Petrovich Sharavin (1935-2020) :

« you have so elegantly expressed your agreement, I am flattered. But, alas, we will learn the truth either from the state or when we find ourselves in the other world, where there are no illnesses, sorrows and grief...
 In the meantime, we are left to indulge ourselves intellectually in a game of investigations.»


I thank Teddy who has done the enormous task of gathering  and put in order, on his "forum.dyatlovpass.com", the informations and the various arguments that will allow us to gradually elaborate complete and realistic explanatory theories.

Because Dubina's diary appears to be genuine, it is important to explain Dubinina's strange changes so that they can be logically incorporated into a complete and convincing theory.


Part 1 , sabine : Reply #1 - 2 - 7 - 8

§-1-}   These posts by sabine are very interesting. Of course, I often agree with Sabine Lechtenfeld.
[/i]Dubinina was an intelligent and well-educated young woman, who was introverted and did not socialize easily
She seems to have been well organized and honest to a fault.
She didn't hesitate to speak her mind,   being socially awkward.[/i]

Yes : IMHO : There is clearly no such thing as premonition, telepathic thought transmission or influence of idiotic astrology.


§-2-}   sabine seems to me to have had an intuition of the right (i.e.my) solution at first. Then she reacts in the wrong way:
      "No ! No ! It is not plausible..."

But is not plausible to assume that a personal enemy of Lyuda would recruit helpers in order to wipe out the whole group.
IMHO, Nevertheless this is exactly in fact what happened : 1 or 2 clients, (commanders...) who stayed in Vizhay paid (probably 3) mercenary killers.

And therefore I think it's legitimate and necessary to look at a scenario where these facial injuries may have been inflicted deliberately, since the implications for the whole case are immense.
IMHO, the facial injuries have been inflicted deliberately which incriminates the Chekists of the NKVD and exonerates other suspects such as the Russian or foreign Zeks and the Mansi.


§-3-} A general query, addressed  especially to those who have psychological knowledge and who are interested in the issue of DPI,  (such as Sabine, mk,   ...etc.)

Why this widespread and strange refusal to adopt a criminal version (Murdered or Altercation on the pass), which has the great advantage of explaining in a simple way all the informations available nowadays  ??

For the Stalinists who want to hide the moral perversity of some NKVD leaders and of Stalin himself, it is understandable.
 But for the others...? ...eyes widely shut...? Hope or dream to live in a world without any violence...

§-4-} A cold case cannot be studied without understanding its historical context.
In the case of the DPI, it is essential to know the moral perversion that had infected some of the NKVD officers and functionaries.

 ••• To the misfortune of the Russian people (and perhaps to the misfortune of the communist ideology in the entire world) the sadistic tendencies of some camp guards of all ranks were encouraged by Stalin himself who had a typical sadistic personality.

For example, the historian Simon Sebag Montefiore (author of a famous biography of Stalin), testifies: "At a drunken dinner, Kamenev asked everyone around the table to say what was their dearest wish in life. Some said women, others answered sincerely that it was the progress of dialectical materialism towards the proletarian paradise. Then came Stalin's turn: 'My greatest pleasure is to choose a victim, to prepare plans thoroughly, to satisfy a relentless revenge and then to go to bed. There is nothing sweeter in the world. 


 •••  Khrushchev was aware of 2 disadvantages of the gulag system which he stated in his secret speech to the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union on 25 February 1956. (On the secret speech, which is quite lengthy and almost unreadable, see among many other sources : )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Cult_of_Personality_and_Its_Consequences

1°) It was the internment of millions of innocent and harmless citizens and the use of forced labour of the zeks in very harsh physical conditions.
2°) The Gulag system morally perverted a small number of the camp guards by turning them into sadistic psychopaths.
This explains why, in the eyes of Khrushchev's supporters, the de-Stalinisation implied the need for a harsh purge of the NKVD by the KGB.

As a result, it is almost certain that in Vizhay, located in the heart of Ivdellag, Stalinist Chekists were panicking over the holding of the 21st Congress of the CPSU (January 27 to February 5, 1959).
The extermination of Dyatlov's apolitical group (but who, with their exibition of the Voucher, was considered in Vizhay to be propagandists of the Thaw) was immediately understood in the Kremlin as a fierce manifestation of Stalinist opposition.

 ••• Among the testimonies on the poor living conditions in the camps and on the dehumanisation of some camp guards we have : Drawings from the Gulag by Danzig Baldaev(1925-2005)


An available source in English :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review

With the drawings in “Drawings from the Gulag”, Baldaev tries to collect evidence and document the crimes of the Communist. At no time was it intended for commercial publication or was taken abroad, but rather seems to have tried to collect material to remind of the grievous acts after a regime change, or, at best, to provide evidence of trials.....
Due to his profession, he was an eyewitness to several crimes depicted in his book..............


§-5-}   So I recopy here this short excerpt written (in Russian) by Aleks Kandr.  
          Motives for murder:
     - Personal dislike of the "capital's youth" and revenge for the insults inflicted, which may have been of little consequence, say, in their perception of any of us, but not for a professional sadist who had served for many years in the NKVD in complicity with the Stalinist repressions of the 30-50s.

     - Hatred of the political changes taking place in the country after Stalin's death, epitomised by the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, which against the background of rampant propaganda in the media to celebrate the opening of the 21st Congress of the CPSU, may have further motivated the murder of tourists who dedicated their trek to this (21°) party congress.



Part 2, BottledBrunette : Reply #16

I think that BottledBrunette has guessed a good research lead, to explain Dubinina's mood changes
To be simpler and clearer I am transforming a bit what BottledBrunette wrote while keeping (I hope) the important meaning of her Reply #13 post.

Quote from: BottledBrunette   on August 25, 2019, 11:36:05 PM    Reply #16 (in substance, essence)
........................
Dubinina clearly expressed her dissatisfaction with the very bad reception, which was intended to humiliate and also to swindle Dyatlov's group.

Consequently one of the men on Vizhay tried to rape her, or manhandle her a bit or lot, but, either she fought him off or it was interrupted somehow. 

 Sensitive young girls who are sexually assaulted by attempted rape or just being fondled, or harassed, then their personality change.

I have heard that in these circumstances, women then undergo a profound psychological changes in their personality:.  Anger, lethargy, depression, self blaming, etc....

Dubinina's frustrations and anger were made worse by the fact that her 8 comrades seemed to accept everything and were not aware of these humiliating situations.

For Dubinina the mission of the leader Dyatlov was also to preserve the honour and interests of his group.
But instead of strongly protesting against the swindles and humiliations (coming from some unknown notables of Vizhay), Dyatlov submits by lazily dodging his duty to protest:

Dyatlov said with a smirk : "If the tea is cold, then go out and drink it on the street, it will be hot".

(Dyatlov's skills and interests were in science and sport, but not in bargaining and negotiating in front of oddly hostile innkeeper)

Kolgoromova seemed to have other concerns (that remain mysterious).

" I talked a lot about things which are completely unfamiliar to me and I scarcely do, but I tried, sincerely. But this is all
nonsense"
(???,!)


 
Part 3 , writers in favour of « the fight in the night »

Vladimir Mihaylovich Askinadzi : « Don’t ask me, I don’t know who or why were they murdered. But this seems to me the only explanation of their death. »

At this moment, to improve my "altecation" theory I merely read and wisely mix the good ideas of a few writers.

First the most remarkable ones:

••• Per Inge Oestmoen (812 posts since March 12, 2018, that almost all say : « All the evidence points to murder....»)
••• Eduard Tumanov (is pushing a theory that « hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders...»)
••• Aleks Kandr (His very elaborate theory, but written only in Russian on several websites)

There are also many other writers who are perhaps less convinced by the "overwhelming force of the punches thrown by the few attackers."

•••  Liyla79 - Noelle - hoosiergose - NightLurker - armyeng...etc...

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

June 23, 2021, 06:15:41 AM
Reply #47
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EBE


I think you are right about the murder theory being probably the most plausible one. Besides multiple traces indicating presence of someone else in the area of their death (putees, knife sheath, belt strap, spoon..), the hard evidence is clear: Autopsy reports. Almost all of them had injuries on the side or back of their head. Even Igor Dyatlov - this is not stated in the autopsy report, but is visible on one of the photos from the morgue.

Also, the fire at the cedar was by all means not a fire that would be made by the group to save themselves. It was used for a different purpose.
 

June 23, 2021, 11:04:07 AM
Reply #48
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Manti


I might be completely wrong but I always interpreted Lyuda's diary entry about "bad mood" that will probably continue for the next two days as her being on her period.

Could be anything else really, but she seemed pretty sure it will continue for a specific number of days... makes you wonder...
 

November 28, 2021, 03:06:05 PM
Reply #49
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



                                 Reply #47
I think you are right about the murder theory being probably the most plausible one.
.....................................................................

I have now become a self-proclaimed spokesman of a murder theory or criminal theory ( Криминальные on  https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0)

This theory was naturally formed by gathering the individual contributions of 3 main authors who are : Eduard Tumanov, Per Inge Oestmoen, Aleks Kandr.

Therefore, in recognition and tribute to those who might deserve to be called the founding fathers, I have chosen the name TOK theory.

TOK theory = Eduard Tumanov + Per Inge Oestmoen + Aleks Kandr =  murder or relentless "Altercation on the pass"

For the essential contribution of Aleks Kandr see :
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
Of course you should not take into account the few ridiculous allusions to astrolology and telepathy which are completely useless and harmful.

I do hope one day to have the mental stamina to write a more complete argument about the TOK theory, but as WAB says :

You need a very large amount of text to explain your position. Especially considering the fact that many positions need to be explained in great detail,....I'm not a writer,..... I want the physical result of what happened, not the number of letters on a paper ....

                                 Reply #47
.............................................
Also, the fire at the cedar was by all means not a fire that would be made by the group to save themselves. It was used for a different purpose.

A weak point of the TOK theory is not the exit without proper equipment from the tent, but the orderly descent to the cedar.
      EBE has here introduced a new idea that may be introduced into the TOK theory.

                   It was the attackers who started the fire  so that they could fool the hikers by telling them:
It is deadly dangerous to stay near the tent. Go quickly to the first aid post under the cedar tree, where there is a fire.
   (This was a ruse (cunning, ploy..) that was part of the tactic of the planned murder of the 9 hikers)

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

January 06, 2022, 03:45:36 PM
Reply #50
Offline

ElizabethHarris


The removal of the eyes and ears could be symbolic: 'You saw nothing, you say nothing."-hence removal of respective body parts. Probably just another coincidence though.
 

July 06, 2022, 03:32:20 PM
Reply #51
Online

Jean Daniel Reuss



Part  1

In the absence of sufficiently convincing material facts, clues of a pychological nature can be useful!

4 members of the site have underlined the importance of the change in Dubinina's behaviour better than I could have done.
More precisely they are: sabine, Teddy, RidgeWatcher, Georgi.

[Quote from: sabine   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on May 12, 2019, 05:59:04 PM
           --->         Reply #1]

.......................
I rejected the idea as unlikely that Lyuda had a true premonition of doom and was in a telepathic contact with her eventual assailants. But I think nevertheless that it's very valuable  to look again at the evidence of the diary entries as well as at Lyuda's obduction reports and how they have been re-evaluated by various forensic experts. And since Lyuda wrote about her bad mood during the group's stay in Vizhai, it's interesting to take a closer look at the location.
.......................
 When investigating a suspicious death it's standard procedure to scrutinize the behavior of the victims shortly before their deaths and look for changes and unusual behavior.
.................................
 That she stopped to update her expedition diary is indeed concerning, since keeping a personal diary on a daily basis was considered to be one of the essential duties during these expeditions.
..................................
But  the big question remains: what caused this deterioration of her mood?
 To me it seems that she knows quite well what exactly is upsetting her!
[/quote]


[Quote from: Teddy   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on May 13, 2019, 06:21:34 PM         --->        Reply #4]
.............................
It is true what Sabine says - we don't have information about her usual way of behavior, but one thing we know - she was very strict and to be the first one to disobey the rules most probably she made it is strange. To stop writing in her diary is also strange. What's you take on this?
[/quote]


[Quote from: sabine   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on  May 13, 2019, 10:10:31 PM         --->         Reply #8]
.....................
Every investigator worth his/her salt should've taken a long and hard look at Lyuda's diary entries, and should've tried to find out by interviewing those who have been around during the stay in Vizhay, wth may have been bugging Lyuda
[/quote]


[Quote from: sabine   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on May 14, 2019, 03:06:40 PM           --->         Reply #11]
The more I think about it, the less I believe that Lyuda was "mad as hel]" because she suffered from period-related symptoms. It's of course possible - but I have never heard a woman say that she is "mad as hell/ as the devil" because of her period. To me it sounds more as if something very specific made her really angry or furious, and I wonder why Lyuda didn't write down why she was so angry - especially since she accused herself of having a sharp tongue, which seems to imply that she normally didn't hold back her anger.
[/quote]


[Quote from: RidgeWatcher   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on August 04, 2020, 09:47:52 AM           --->         Reply #24]
If we source Lyuda's behaviors during other hiking experiences then we can assess her behavioral contradictions in terms of her actions at Vizhay and afterwards.

After all, Lyuda sustained a bullet wound on a previous tourist hike and finished the hike while apologizing to her group for causing any delay and inconvenience.
Whatever happened in Vizhay was worse than a gun shot wound, no doubt, either physically or psychologically. Keep in mind that Lyuda was tough, smart and she was trusted by the group trusted her as the treasurer.
.............................
All in all, the Dyatlov group seemed to have a better and more comfortable time in the uninhabited 2nd Northern camp, than they did in Vizhay. That says a lot when reviewing the Vizhay experience.

I also think that Vizhay can be separated into two parts: Entering Vizhay to finishing the movie, and then to the hotel and their departure. From reading their journals I think that whatever happened took place after the movie finished. That Lyuda was very keen about whatever happened was quite evident.
[/quote]

[Quote from: Georgi   ==> Re: Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death;   on August 12, 2020, 02:47:57 AM           --->         Reply #25]
I think that we can safely say that her behaviour during the trek and her actions were out of the ordinary. If we look at the hiking experience of the individual members and it's available here-->https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks we can see that she has had previous hikes with at least 6 member of the 10 person team, the only people she has not gone to hikes with in the previous 6 years are Zolotaryov for obvious reasons, Slobodin and Kolevatov. If this were her ordinary behaviour where she would at times refuse to participate in camp tasks that everyone should participate in and behaved in a manner to evoke negative reactions from her hike mates chances are she would not have been invited to a hike that would have lasted at least 21 days most of them in extreme weather in the wilderness. This was a trip where every member had to do their share for the success of the hike, so if in previous hikes she had been excessively moody, and refused to participate no one would have wanted an unreliable and untrustworthy member for a hike of this complexity, difficulty and length. To me, the fact that she had gone on previous hikes, was shot in the leg once before and was invited to a long, complicated, difficult, and exhausting hike it was because she was trusted to pull her weight and be a team player. This leads me to believe that the behaviour during the hike that we know of and the behaviour that was likely not written down was out of character for her which allowed he hike mates the ability to give her some leeway and also might indicate that something serious was bothering her.

She might have seen something she shouldn't have seen, or recognized someone who wanted to remain anonymous and her subconscious was bothering her because she might not have even realized what was wrong. What we know is that something was eating at her, what we can infer from the fact that she was on the hike is that her usual behaviour during hikes was professional and appropriate or she wouldn't have been invited on this once.
[/quote]

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Part  2

Historical part to be developed later...

On 25 and 26 January, the bad reception, from the Dyatlov group, which seems to have been the only one to exhibit :

« a travel certificate and a trade union voucher, in which he addressed the leaders of Soviet, party and public organizations, “to render all possible assistance” in providing the Dyatlov group of hikers campaign XXI Congress of the CPSU...» ,

is explained by a change of balance in "the small local mafias" of the Ivdellag - Vizhay - Ivdel region.

In 1957-58 the situation was particularly complicated in the Vizhay area because of the diversity of groups there and because the dismantling of the Gulag (house arrest of different nationalities, unemployed former camp guards, venal or dubious policy, genuine gangsters who had been released without due consideration....etc.)

When he died on 5 March 1953, Stalin left his companions (Beria, Malenkov, Kaganovitch, Khrushchev) an alarming legacy. Beria, with the support of his colleagues, took emergency measures to stabilise the Gulag; but soon there was dissension within the leadership group over what to do with the millions of victims of Stalin and the sprawling repressive and productive system. The period known as the Khrushchev Thaw (1953-1964) was marked by the struggle over this legacy and by the government's procrastination on Gulag reform. In the end, 5 million prisoners (Zeks)  were freed and the camps and exile villages were dismantled. Speaking to delegates at the 20th CPSU Congress on 25 February 1956, Khrushchev condemned a selection of Stalin's misdeeds and mistakes. His government secretly engaged in partial criticism of the great waves of repression and acceded to demands for the rehabilitation of almost a million victims, mostly posthumously....

All these mafias (political entities competing with the state for the monopoly of the legitimate exercise of violence), or simple groups with divergent interests, were also characterised by more or less permanent modus vivandi.

(modus vivandi = informal arrangements in affairs regarding disputed erea of influence, despite political, historical or cultural incompatibilities, for the sake of contingency).

Charles  has just wisely provided us several excellent and general links on these topics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blat_(favors)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_economy_of_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsekhovik
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_mafia#1917%E2%80%931991:_Soviet_era
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Russia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_Grossman
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_criminal_tattoos
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1953%E2%80%931964)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Stalinization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchev_Thaw
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Party_Group

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Part  3

Teddy :
« I have solicited an opinion from Sabine Lechtenfeld, forensic psychologist from Hannover, Germany on the subject. What was tormenting Lyuda's mind in the days before the tragedy, was she feeling the impending doom or was she just a troubled soul ?»

Sabine Lechtenfeld was consulted as an expert by Teddy and as there is no decisive evidence, Sabine Lechtenfeld had no other possibility than to make speculations, conjectures.

But I am not an expert, I am writing here as an amateur historian (and I use the hypothetical deductive method: another subject to be developed later).

I start by doing a simple and seemingly silly school exercise ---> I select some sentences from sabine's text and I automatically transform sabine's questions into affirmations

I hope this will highlight Sabine Lechtenfeld's deep intuitions. That is what she is not allowed to say as an expert.

and the result is ....  Oh miracle ! I obtain the core of my working hypothesis TOK (hypothesis misleadingly called theory).

You may compare with the Reply #1
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg5845#msg5845


she  = Dubinina spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way..

••  she notice something which struck her as bad, but she hesites to put it down in writing..

••  she mulled it over and it continued to bother her..

••  she was so occupied with these thoughts that she didn't even keep up her diary. She have stopped speaking her mind..

••  she noticed something which may have had a connection or even led to the terrible fate of the expedition..

••  she noticed something going on which in her opinion wasn't correct, so she  get mad and she is in an evil/horrible mood..

••  the eyes removed and the tongue cut out have an obvious significance : it is a  symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk.will never again be able to talk.

••  the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it.

••  Dubinina's facial disfigurations were the work of perpetrators [attackers] who mutilated her deliberately after she died.
 
••  the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely reckognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it. It also could be a symbol that the victim will never again be able to talk.

••  she noticed something going on in her immediate surroundings before the skiing started, which bothered her greatly and caused her horrible mood.

••  she continued to mull it over, it occupied her mind after they had started their hike, and she become edgy and withdrawn to the point where she didn't even bother to keep up her expedition diary and stopped socializing.

••  she certainly knew why she was mad and in an evil mood.

••  she noticed something which greatly upset her..

••  she and her fellow members have been thought to be a potential danger for someone [the one that I call the "client"] or a group of people and their interests.

••  the  personal enemy of Lyuda [and of her dangerous group] recruited helpers in order to wipe out the whole group.

••  the expedition have been followed by their attackers. [or preceeded]

••  this was noticed by some group members [in particular by Tibo who tried to lighten the mood with his photo N° 17] , this could have sparked their jests about the existence of yetis.

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Part  4

It will now be easy to extend this theme, involuntarily suggested by Sabine, with extrapolations such as :

In the so-called hotel, Dubinina realised that illegal operations were going on openly and had a dispute with a notable (of the kind of a fierce former Stalinist gulag camp leader) who had been dismissed by the Khrushchev's Thaw. (In what follows I will call him the client).


• Dubinina "who like to add fuel to the fire" = This is dishonest, illegal and against the laws of our beloved motherland.

• The client (very calm, but scornful) = Learn my little lady that here in Vizhay, I am in command.  You are not in Sverdlovsk.

• Dubinina (scandalized) = You are a bandit, I will report you to the police (when I can).

• The client (still very calm, but inwardly furious)) : In Vizhay the chief of police is my partner. Here we are the ones who make the law.
My little lady, you can do as you like, but you will soon see what happens to those who do not respect our laws.


At the end of this " dialogue ", which, seen from afar, might have seemed quite insignificant.
Dubinina,
••  is furious to find herself powerless in the face of such an affront to her (strict) moral concepts;
••  completely demoralised because, for the first time in her life, she realises that in her beloved motherland, in her Soviet paradise, corruption is everywhere;
••  slightly worried, because due to her keen female intuition she instinctively feels a threat that is not in vain.

The client,
•• is furious at this peronal who dares to insult him, whereas he had formely been in the habit of persecuting the zeks with impunity in the Stalinist camps ;
•• aftewards, as the days went by (25-29 January), already full of hatred towards this golden youth who had come to taunt him on his territory, the client became more and more worried: "Back in Sverdlovsk, with the support they have there, all these young scum are capable of creating serious trouble for me".
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.
 

July 06, 2022, 05:40:23 PM
Reply #52
Offline

Charles


Hello Jean-Daniel,


It will now be easy to extend this theme, involuntarily suggested by Sabine, with extrapolations such as :

In the so-called hotel, Dubinina realised that illegal operations were going on openly and had a dispute with a notable (of the kind of a fierce former Stalinist gulag camp leader) who had been dismissed by the Khrushchev's Thaw. (In what follows I will call him the client).

• Dubinina "who like to add fuel to the fire" = This is dishonest, illegal and against the laws of our beloved motherland.

• The client (very calm, but scornful) = Learn my little lady that here in Vizhay, I am in command.  You are not in Sverdlovsk.

• Dubinina (scandalized) = You are a bandit, I will report you to the police (when I can).

• The client (still very calm, but inwardly furious)) : In Vizhay the chief of police is my partner. Here we are the ones who make the law.
My little lady, you can do as you like, but you will soon see what happens to those who do not respect our laws.

At the end of this " dialogue ", which, seen from afar, might have seemed quite insignificant.
Dubinina,
••  is furious to find herself powerless in the face of such an affront to her (strict) moral concepts;
••  completely demoralised because, for the first time in her life, she realises that in her beloved motherland, in her Soviet paradise, corruption is everywhere;
••  slightly worried, because due to her keen female intuition she instinctively feels a threat that is not in vain.

The client,
•• is furious at this peronal who dares to insult him, whereas he had formely been in the habit of persecuting the zeks with impunity in the Stalinist camps ;
•• aftewards, as the days went by (25-29 January), already full of hatred towards this golden youth who had come to taunt him on his territory, the client became more and more worried: "Back in Sverdlovsk, with the support they have there, all these young scum are capable of creating serious trouble for me".

No, there is absolutely no ground. You can't just imagine a dialogue from nothing and draw conclusions.

When I wrote this dialogue, all parts in red are quotes of Yudin, Slobodin or other sources from DPI archive or material directly derived from the diaries and the parts in blue are quotes of Herzog:

- How can you be friend with such arrogant nobs? (Krivonishenko playing to be poor: " handing a cap for change after singing a song." and "police charging him with deception")
- They are not my friends. (no mention of any regret to leave the group in Yudin's diary)
- But they seem to like you. (regret of the girls to see Yudin leave: "It is a pity, of course, that he leaves us. Especially for me and Zina, but nothing can be done about it.")
- They can't have feelings. ("but feelings - none.")
- Really?
- I have nothing in common with them. ("I couldn't feel the Person, his soul. Maybe that's why everybody that saw the movie was saying: "It feels so good, nothing is missing", they say "like life itself" ")
- How could it be?
- I can't explain it to you, but it is.
- Anyway, that thing they did, you don't do that.
- I know, they are not real Persons, they don't have souls. ("I couldn't feel the Person, his soul. ")
- They pissed me off and not only me: some of the boys began to say they'd like to kill them. ("They would have killed him")
- Could they? ("the Indians offered to kill Kinski for me. ")
- Would you like them to? ("Shall we kill him for you?")
- No they could not.
- Yes we can, it would be easy for us, we own this place, we do what we want, everything is possible. ("They would have killed him, undoubtedly, if I had wanted it", "We own this place and we do what we want" and "Everything is possible")
- They wrote a denunciation, in our group's diary, of your illegal prison songs. (Doroshenko: "We heard a number of illegal prison songs")
- The tall one with a fake smile, I bet ! We already knew these gentlemen were snitches.("Yuri Doroshenko, a fellow student, the tallest in the group" and "We heard a number of illegal prison songs")
- They were not worthy to hear the songs. ("we don't sing about the soul in places where there are some outsiders")
- And would you not be sad to know them dead? ((no mention of any regret to leave the group in Yudin's diary)
- As I told you: they have no soul, they are not Persons, but they are like machines, they are not real humans . ("automatic machines tuned to a spec. program", "I couldn't feel the Person, his soul" and "there are not living people")
...
- Will you do your job? ("Othello, he did his job")
- Yes, but we would just need to buy a few hours. (departure scheduled at 10:00 hours but actual at 16:00 hours)
- And I would just need an excuse not to die.("my leg began to hurt")


Writing a dialogue as a "thought experiment" does not relieve you of the obligation to base every word in reality.


And what is the ground of "In the so-called hotel, Dubinina realised that illegal operations were going on openly and had a dispute with a notable"? There is nothing in the diaries allowing such an hypothesis involving Dubinina. The one who might have discovered something was Yudin, as he wrote in his diary about Ryazhnev and Tatiana Polikarpovna's pension (the tip of the "iceberg").

And if there was a local mafia in Vizhay, it was Mansi. And there should be records of its existence. But in Soviet Union, many things were horizontal, as according to Hannah Arendt's book "The Origins of Totalitarianism" where she described the system as an onion with multiple layers. When the "war of the suka" began, it began in all the gulag system, simultaneously. Crack down of the lumpenproletariat, de-kulakization, purge of the generals, war of the suka, and even de-stalinization (the elite layer was tired of unstability and risk to be purged) were all phenomenons concerning layers of this "onion", it was horizontal.

Local mafias had been recorded in Soviet Union, as in Georgia it seems to me (maybe I am wrong), because in the Caucasus there was a long tradition of clan culture. And if there was a local mafia in Vizhay, it should have been Mansi and recorded. Local Mafia means mobsters born on site, like in the Italian mafia (Sicily, Calabra, Napoli), with family ties and solidarity. The "local" can become a mafia because of the strength of family ties. Otherwise, we call "gangs" these criminal organizations that began with random encounters (like la Brise de mer in a bar in France). But gangs are not mafias, they don't befriend with the police, they have limited means of action and they never last long.

Anyway you need to find a ground for your hypothesis and there is absolutely none. According to group's diary, the arrival in Vizhay was a kind of relief, where the hikers found "warmth" and "friendly atmosphere".

Charles

PS: I wanted to stop posting but the addiction is still alive.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 02:56:29 PM by Charles »
Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien :
Mais l’amour infini me montera dans l’âme,
Et j’irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, – heureux comme avec une femme.
 

July 07, 2022, 06:59:51 PM
Reply #53
Offline

Ziljoe


I'm with Jean Daniel Reuss.

Mafia is a general term for a group of people contoling an environment , that could be through violence , family, friends religion etc. I don't think it ends at Italian mafia. I think you are taking it too literally Charles.
 

July 08, 2022, 08:15:33 AM
Reply #54
Offline

Charles


you are taking it too literally

No, Jean-Daniel was very specific, he even talked about a "proto-mafia" if I remember well... And then if we speak about "proto-mafia" and genesis of mafia, then we have to consider what is the data available about mafias. And we know that they rise locally, they begin with a territorial anchorage and family ties, and develop from this ground.

In the case of Italian mafia, it has been documented that it began in the huge agricultural domains of the aristocracy, when the aristocrats left to live in Rome, Paris or Vienna, and they delegated their power of feudal origin to domain managers. In the absence of the masters, these domain managers assumed the feudal power and made it last under and against the modern state administration. And thus, the parody of aristocracy with the "code of honor", catholic religious practice, initiation rites, oaths, fidelity, and so on. In Italy, the mafia was a local "counter-state" with a political dimension. It opposed the state administration, replaced it, doubled it and if possible was it (pushing its members at local key positions as mayor, chief of police, etc.).

In the case of other mafias, they are all ethnic, locally rooted, with a clan structure and a core of family ties.

If their was a "proto-mafia", as wrote Jean-Daniel, in Vizhay, then it was Mansi. Mansi had the local anchorage, their own culture opposing Soviet culture, and Stepan Kurikov even played with Soviet rules, being elected at whatever position he could in the local soviet system.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 08:21:58 AM by Charles »
Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien :
Mais l’amour infini me montera dans l’âme,
Et j’irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, – heureux comme avec une femme.
 

July 08, 2022, 08:31:02 AM
Reply #55
Offline

Charles


And if there was a Mansi "proto-Mafia" lead by godfather Stepan Kurikov, the target of a mass murder would not be tourists from Sverdlovsk but members of a rival criminal organization... of an Ostyak "proto-mafia" or whatever other "proto-mafia" having the same range of influence and able to be a rival (rivalry implies some equality).
Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien :
Mais l’amour infini me montera dans l’âme,
Et j’irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, – heureux comme avec une femme.
 

July 08, 2022, 08:39:25 AM
Reply #56
Offline

Charles


she  = Dubinina spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way..

Dubinina was not even able to spot who began the discussion about love on Jan. 24:

no one even noticed how we started to discuss love issues (Dubinina's diary, Jan. 24)

Discussion about love provoked by Z. Kolmogorova. (Yudin in group's diary, Jan. 24)

She was only able to spot the youth and cuteness of the loggers.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 09:22:24 AM by Charles »
Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien :
Mais l’amour infini me montera dans l’âme,
Et j’irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, – heureux comme avec une femme.
 

July 08, 2022, 08:47:03 AM
Reply #57
Offline

Charles


the deliberate removal of the tongue and eyes are a very typical and widely recognized  message that the victim may have seen too much and was suspected to have talked about it.

But a message sent to whom ? To the police ? How many locals had access to the autopsy ? Was it written in the newspapers that her tongue and eyes were removed ? So you have to check in the archives of newspapers if the detail of the removal of eyes and tongue was revealed to the public. And if it was not, then there is no message.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 09:22:01 AM by Charles »
Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien :
Mais l’amour infini me montera dans l’âme,
Et j’irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, – heureux comme avec une femme.
 

July 08, 2022, 09:15:16 AM
Reply #58
Offline

Charles


but I have never heard a woman say that she is "mad as hell/ as the devil" because of her period.

Some women can experience a very brutal depression during period, with physical pain, sudden outburst of tears, irritability, extreme tiredness, dark ideas... I've seen that as I had once a sensitive girlfriend, a talented pianist, who went every month through a few days of absolute misery. The effect of period on mood varies according to each woman, for some it is not a big deal, for others it is much harder.
Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien :
Mais l’amour infini me montera dans l’âme,
Et j’irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, – heureux comme avec une femme.
 

July 08, 2022, 10:33:56 AM
Reply #59
Offline

Charles


About a "message", if killing 9 hikers from the UPI and removing Dubinina's tongue and eyes was a "message", therefore it was addressed either to their hiking organization or to the UPI, isn't it?

If it was a message, who was the recipient?

And if the "message" included the death of 9 people, then it was sent to a recipient who had less power than the author. Can you imagine a small and local criminal group sending such a message to any more powerful organization, criminal or not? It would be suicidal. Or the message was sent as a challenge, but from a group well aware of its own strength, able to survive the reply, and therefore not local and not small. 9 dead people can't be a message sent to CPSU, KGB or Soviet Police from any small criminal group.

So the group which was the author killed and butchered 9 tourists to send a message to a less powerful recipient... but who? Given all the rescuers, military, police, investigators, prosecutor, officials and so on who suddenly came to Vizhay, the message could have been "we are not only criminals without mercy, we are also the dumbest criminals ever".

If it was a message, who was the recipient?

« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 02:58:37 PM by Charles »
Je ne parlerai pas, je ne penserai rien :
Mais l’amour infini me montera dans l’âme,
Et j’irai loin, bien loin, comme un bohémien,
Par la Nature, – heureux comme avec une femme.