December 07, 2021, 04:57:02 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: What if a snow glide happened in the ravine?  (Read 5671 times)

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February 07, 2019, 12:00:15 PM
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sug2h


Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?
 

February 07, 2019, 12:45:42 PM
Reply #1
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I think you will find that this theory has popped up in other Posts. We dont even know if it was a Den. It would have had to have been one hell of an avalanche etc to cause those injuries to DUBININA.
DB
 

February 07, 2019, 02:22:13 PM
Reply #2
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Dominov


Here is the ravine slope and its inclination (green). A mild little slope, nothing more. The wavy shape of the ravine stabilizes the snow in it. Decide for yourself.




 

February 07, 2019, 03:18:30 PM
Reply #3
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Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

It's unlikely.  WAB posted some pictures of the slope near where the bodies were found.  There is a fair steep localised drop at about 40 degrees.  However the body positions are not consistent with being hit by an avalanche IMO.
 

February 07, 2019, 03:46:56 PM
Reply #4
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Puchiko


I think you will find that this theory has popped up in other Posts. We dont even know if it was a Den. It would have had to have been one hell of an avalanche etc to cause those injuries to DUBININA.

I agree with your conclusion regarding Ludmila's injuries - but what else would be than a den? The den appears in all descriptions of the incident, so I've always taken it as fact, although as I'm checking the evidence, all that's photographed are the branches and clothes - was it a cavity when found or was it filled by snow by then?
 

February 07, 2019, 03:56:51 PM
Reply #5
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
This is of course, if you believe that snow always falls and accumulates evenly and wind never creates things such as snow-drifts or snow-banks.  How do you know just how high/deep the west bank of the ravine was on Feb 2nd 1959?
 

Askinadzi and Suvorov on the slope of Otorten - photo archive Vladimir Askinadzi

All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

February 07, 2019, 04:09:59 PM
Reply #6
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
This is of course, if you believe that snow always falls and accumulates evenly and wind never creates things such as snow-drifts or snow-banks.  How do you know just how high/deep the west bank of the ravine was on Feb 2nd 1959?
 

Askinadzi and Suvorov on the slope of Otorten - photo archive Vladimir Askinadzi



They are standing at a much higher altitude than the Ravine though. And that mass of snow below them would have not accumulated at the Ravine. And even a mass of snow like that is unlikely to have caused the serious injuries to DUBININA. Many survivors of avalanches having been thrown under such masses of snow and have come out relatively unharmed.
DB
 

February 07, 2019, 04:54:30 PM
Reply #7
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

February 07, 2019, 09:17:37 PM
Reply #8
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sug2h


was it a cavity when found or was it filled by snow by then?

it was filled with snow
 

February 07, 2019, 11:48:44 PM
Reply #9
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Monika


Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?


The theory of snow hitting them is contradicted by the fact that the Zolotarev camera around his neck was staying intact (only film was damaged by water). How is it possible that a large mass of snow will cause severe injuries like broken ribs and the camera placed just a little higher (on the neck) is undamaged? And he had a notebook and a pencil in his hand, it also contradicts the snow hitting as well as the fall from tree.
 

February 08, 2019, 02:30:43 AM
Reply #10
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Puchiko


The theory of snow hitting them is contradicted by the fact that the Zolotarev camera around his neck was staying intact (only film was damaged by water). How is it possible that a large mass of snow will cause severe injuries like broken ribs and the camera placed just a little higher (on the neck) is undamaged? And he had a notebook and a pencil in his hand, it also contradicts the snow hitting as well as the fall from tree.

I agree about the camera, but the existence of the notepad is disputed. The only evidence we have for it is Askinadzi's recent letter to Ural Pathfinder magazine. The whereabouts of the notepad are unknown, it was never filed in evidence or seen by anyone else.
 

February 09, 2019, 06:33:49 PM
Reply #11
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sug2h


And he had a notebook and a pencil in his hand, it also contradicts the snow hitting as well as the fall from tree.

And what if he was first hit by the snow, and then, knowing he was about to die, he asked his friends to give him a notepad in order to write a note to his family?

Does anybody know which type of camera it was?
 

February 10, 2019, 12:12:59 AM
Reply #12
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
The camera is on a lanyard and able to swing freely.  We don't know its position prior to removing him from the creek, nor where it was located during the impact. 

The notebook was in his pocket, and his hands were in his pocket.  He wasn't found with a notepad clutched in his hand flapping around in the water for months. 
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

February 10, 2019, 04:22:28 AM
Reply #13
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Monika


The camera is on a lanyard and able to swing freely.  We don't know its position prior to removing him from the creek, nor where it was located during the impact. 

The notebook was in his pocket, and his hands were in his pocket.  He wasn't found with a notepad clutched in his hand flapping around in the water for months.

He was found with his camera around his neck directly after finding of his body  confirmed  the photo from the crime scene available on internet.  He had to have camera during the injury. After being badly injured, it would be pointless to put a camera around his neck. Why? He did not have the chance to survive, and he had to suffer terrible pains. And someone would lift his head to give him a camera around his neck ?
 

February 10, 2019, 07:45:36 AM
Reply #14
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Loose}{Cannon

Global Moderator
Quote
He had to have camera during the injury.

Who said the camera wasn't around his neck via the lanyard?

Why would anyone think this camera is BOLTED to his chest and not capable of swinging somewhere other then that position in freefall or similar? 
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 07:55:25 AM by Loose}{Cannon »
All theories are flawed....... Get Behind Me Satan !!!
 

February 16, 2019, 01:00:42 PM
Reply #15
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I think you will find that this theory has popped up in other Posts. We dont even know if it was a Den. It would have had to have been one hell of an avalanche etc to cause those injuries to DUBININA.

I agree with your conclusion regarding Ludmila's injuries - but what else would be than a den? The den appears in all descriptions of the incident, so I've always taken it as fact, although as I'm checking the evidence, all that's photographed are the branches and clothes - was it a cavity when found or was it filled by snow by then?

All we know is that a search party dug down and eventually found a sort of platform. But does this small platform indicate a DEN  !  ?  I dont see any indications of it being a DEN or CAVITY.
DB
 

October 31, 2020, 04:09:45 PM
Reply #16
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Bannef


Thank you for asking that, I had been looking for an answer to whether that theory is likely or not.

I skimmed a study on avalanche deaths. The very few people who actually died from physical trauma did have familiar sounding symptoms - facial abrasions, rib fractures, skull fracture. But the vast majority of deaths were caused by asphyxiation. Of the 56 cases studied, only three people died from physical trauma alone. Asphyxiation killed the rest of them.

Of the four people found in the ravine, their causes of death was listed as rib fractures and internal hemorrhaging for two (Dubinina and Zolotaryov), skull fracture for one (Thibeaux-Brignolle) and hypothermia for one (Kolevatov). An avalanche that caused these deaths would be relatively unique, as it caused massive damage, but covered them with so little snow that they died from their wounds before asphyxiating.

Of course, that is based on the assumption that the medical examiner can distinguish between death caused by wounds and death caused by asphyxiation. I know nothing about autopsies, I can't say.
 

April 02, 2021, 07:17:42 PM
Reply #17
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Squatch


Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.
 

April 03, 2021, 08:55:26 AM
Reply #18
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RMK


Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.
In this scenario you describe, what happened to the two Yuris?  Would they already be dead by the time the avalanche happened in the ravine?
 

April 03, 2021, 11:39:43 AM
Reply #19
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Manti


Of course, that is based on the assumption that the medical examiner can distinguish between death caused by wounds and death caused by asphyxiation. I know nothing about autopsies, I can't say.

I have been reading about the same thing, encourage everyone to do so. It does appear that even using modern methods, it is often hard to ascertain the cause of death in both hypothermia and asphyxiation victims. These are mostly determined by ruling out anything else, so if there is no obvious cause of death and the incident happened in a cold environment, it's ruled as hypothermia. If it happened in water or a high altitude or an enclosed space like a cave, it's ruled as asphyxiation. 


But in reality it is often a combination. Avalanche victims buried under snow might die due to asphyxiation but this in turn happens because they couldn't dig themselves out which might be due to trauma, not serious enough to kill on its own but big enough to weaken them. Or hypothermia victims might become disorientated, lose balance, or have hallucinations and fall as a result, sustaining trauma. And so on..
 

April 08, 2021, 03:01:58 PM
Reply #20
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Squatch


Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.
In this scenario you describe, what happened to the two Yuris?  Would they already be dead by the time the avalanche happened in the ravine?
Yes, in my scenario they died at the camp fire at the tree line. It's believable because some of their clothes were found on the others and their bodies were found near the fire in any case.
 

April 08, 2021, 03:34:30 PM
Reply #21
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KFinn


Most theories based on avalanche / snowslab / ice glide are suggesting that the event happened near the tent, and made the skiers flee to the treeline.
But what if something else made them flee the tent, and then some sort of snow glide or ice glide happened in the ravine, as the Rav4 were building a den?
I say this because of the injuries suffered by 3 of the Rav4 that could be explained by a large amount of snow hitting them. If those injuries were caused as they were still in the tent, I don't see how they could have managed to walk to the ravine.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Could this ravine be abrupt enough, or deep enough to cause such an event?

I agree with everything you have said.

The avalanche did not happen at the tent in my opinion. It happened in the ravine. The huge amount of snow above the "den" area and over the bodies seems to indicate massive movement of snow -- enough to cause injury and death.

I would further speculate that Rustem Slobodin barely escaped this with a skull fracture and Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova escaped relatively unscathed. I think the three of them made for the tent after the ravine avalanche as a last resort. This would explain why the group appeared to "split up" after the cedar tree... because in reality they didn't! They were all together until the ravine disaster and the three survivors then made for the tent.
In this scenario you describe, what happened to the two Yuris?  Would they already be dead by the time the avalanche happened in the ravine?
Yes, in my scenario they died at the camp fire at the tree line. It's believable because some of their clothes were found on the others and their bodies were found near the fire in any case.

I agree.  There does seem to be some evidence medically to suggest this.  Doroshenko's livor mortis was fixed on his back sides, which means that when his clothes were cut off and he was turned over onto his front, he had been deceased for, at minimum, 6 hours (livor mortis develops slightly more slowly in freezing temperatures so it could very well be more than 6 hours.)  In my opinion, whatever killed the ravine 4, since they were the group wearing articles of clothing belonging to to Doroshenko and Krivonischenko, would have had to occur quite some time after the Yuris passed.  With the extent of the injuries on those in the ravine and the depth of snow there, I'd say a slab avalanche is quite plausible.
-Ren
 

April 08, 2021, 05:45:11 PM
Reply #22
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Squatch


I agree.  There does seem to be some evidence medically to suggest this.  Doroshenko's livor mortis was fixed on his back sides, which means that when his clothes were cut off and he was turned over onto his front, he had been deceased for, at minimum, 6 hours (livor mortis develops slightly more slowly in freezing temperatures so it could very well be more than 6 hours.)  In my opinion, whatever killed the ravine 4, since they were the group wearing articles of clothing belonging to to Doroshenko and Krivonischenko, would have had to occur quite some time after the Yuris passed.  With the extent of the injuries on those in the ravine and the depth of snow there, I'd say a slab avalanche is quite plausible.
The picture of the "Den" is quite astonishing. There is an unbelievable amount of snow piled up on that thing. If an avalanche didn't cause all that snow to be above the Den then I don't know what would have put it all there.

In my home town, we have a measurement called a "Butt Ton". It means there is not just a ton of something there, there is a "Butt Ton". As in huge. A lot. Ginormous.

There is a Butt Ton of snow above that "Den". An avalanche kind of Butt Ton.
 

August 31, 2021, 02:53:35 PM
Reply #23
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Paf


This is of course, if you believe that snow always falls and accumulates evenly and wind never creates things such as snow-drifts or snow-banks.  How do you know just how high/deep the west bank of the ravine was on Feb 2nd 1959?
 

Askinadzi and Suvorov on the slope of Otorten - photo archive Vladimir Askinadzi



Do we know where was this photo taken, facing which way, etc ? It doesn't seems to be on the same slop than the tent/den/cedar.


I don't really believe in avanlanche-sustained injuries. Fall of a big slab, maybe, but there was no such thing at the ravine (to many trees for the wind to built it up big enough for the injuries we're talking about).
 

September 03, 2021, 02:16:39 AM
Reply #24
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Manti


As far as I know that photo was taken on Otorten, a different mountain peak that the Dyatlov group never reached.
 

September 10, 2021, 10:00:08 PM
Reply #25
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Игорь Б.


The answers to all the questions related to the death of Dyatlov group:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=110407
Evidence of the death of the Dyatlov group from the Wolverine chemical weapon:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=69286