Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Osi on December 23, 2024, 12:40:13 PM
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The snowfall did not stop until the afternoon of February 1. In order not to waste any more time, the group took action in the direction of Otorten. The valley and forest border were under fog. When they reached the 1079 slope around 17:00, it was decided to set up a tent. I think what convinced them to go camping was the temperature being -6, -7 degrees and the heavy snowfall. After eating, they would immediately sleep and continue their journey up the hill early in the morning. At 19:00, they settled into the tent and started preparing for dinner. At around 20.15, a plate separated from the summit and passed over the tent, making it unusable. At 20.25 the tent was cut down and everyone managed to get out of the tent with minor injuries. At 21 o'clock everyone was near the cedar. The snow had stopped. The temperature is -14. First, let's make a fire and dig an Italian hole. Everyone tried to find dry wood. They climbed the tree and scattered around. While 2 Yuri was busy with the fire, the other 7 people found a suitable place in the heavy snow cover, 60 meters away from the cedar, and started digging with their hands. They prepared a bed here for insulation from tree branches. They were planning to go to the fire and warm up after work. When they approached the fire, the fire still hadn't been lit. If a fire cannot be lit, the only solution is a snow cave.Around 22:00 the temperature is -17. Signs of the beginning of hypothermia in all group members. Zina and Dyatlov wanted to return to the tent and win the clothes and the stove. 2 Yuri decided to strengthen the fire. The 5 group members, led by Zolotoryev, were going to explore a snow cave deep into the valley. The group members were separated from each other to the extent that they could no longer communicate. While trying to cross a snow bridge, they all fell into the stream. Lyu and Sasha hit the rocks and crushed their chests. Tibo and Rüstem hit their heads. Kolove He was in good condition. He pulled them out of the water and laid them aside. Kolove was trying to warm them by hugging them and offered to drag them to the fire. But they were very hurt and they rejected this offer. At 22:45, Kolove returned to the cedar.2 Yuri had died by the weak fire and his leg was left on the fire. He laid them aside, took off some clothes and returned to the wet Lyutmila. He tried to warm himself up. Rustem, who had a slight wound on his head, believed that Zina and Dyatlov had found the tent and that they might have lit the stove with their clothes. He got permission from Kolove and went into the tent. At 23:30, Rüstem could not resist and fell into the snow. The temperature was -21 degrees, and finally Kolove fell asleep, hugging the others.
The snow that fell and was blown until the day of the search covered all traces. If around 1 meter of snow had fallen into the valley until the day of the search, it would not be possible to detect them. Lyutmila was lying at the very end of the waterfall. At the end of April, the softening of the snow moved in the direction of the slope, pushing her legs down towards the cliff like a minute hand. Her arms remained in their original position above. I don't take into account the characteristics of people when they die. Those who were better dressed and more active lasted a little longer, that's all. 2 Yuri was scantily clad and his only thought was to light the fire. Unable to do this, the two strong men were the first to die. As someone who has been studying and researching this incident for a long time, this is the scenario I created by using evidence, photographs, diaries, etc. and all the scenes of the incident. And that's what my movie is all about.
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We agree on the slab slide theory. All the rest is well thought out and could have happened that way. Good work.
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You know; In heavy storms or fog, ferry and plane trips are canceled. As an official procedure, the group should not continue due to bad weather conditions. However, after all this hard work and promotion, giving up on this campaign was not attractive to the young people. They would lighten their load and move from the slope. There was an interesting snow cover at the forest border and in the valley. Blown snow. It's a terrible situation where in some places there is no debris and in others you are buried in it. There is no mobility at all. Dyatlov: I would hope he would say, "Hey guys, it's just a plate shift. Keep calm and let's all raise our tent again." They did not understand what was happening and panicked, thinking that the terrible thing would continue. and escape.. They rushed (forced) to light the fire. The place of the fire was in an area open to the wind. Maybe it would have been more successful if the wood had been carried into the pit and burned there. It would take half an hour to dig the hole, and the naked Yuris did not have the strength to wait. They preferred under the cedar. Rüstem's only shoe: He did not have time to put on the other one when leaving the tent, or he had to take it off in the valley because it was filled with water. Kolove; When he reached the cedar, he cut the clothes with Yuri's knife and took the knife into the valley. However, the searchers only retrieved the bodies. They did not search for other objects under the snow.
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When Teddy and her colleagues camp on the night of Feb. 1-2 in proximity of the Dyatlov group's tent, maybe a courageous and slightly crazy younger person can begin walking barefooted in one shirt and one pair of pants toward the forest (followed closely by others with blankets, shoes, etc. for the brave soul). If the weather conditions are brutal as in 1959, I don't believe he or she will walk more than 20 minutes before the beginning of hypothermia.
The Dyatlov hikers were in good health and great condition, but they weren't superhuman. The two Yuris, barefoot and wearing the barest of clothing, would have frozen to death long before the two-plus hours that you describe. Just my opinion.
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That would surely be a test of endurance. Teddy, as we know advocates for the tent disaster happening in the forest below. I wonder if her plan to stay on the slope is going to modify her opinion. She has put a lot on the line to defend her point of view. If she does not believe the disaster originated there, I am not sure how much effort will be put into undermining her own theory. I do believe she is fair minded, but I think she feels that there were investigations she wanted to pursue onnher last trip which she could not complete. My sense is that isnwherenshe will concentrate her efforts. Additionally, I wonder out loud what sort of artifacts would remain at the proposed camp site. Time, tourism and rains will surely have denuded the site.
Assuming the last camp was where the tent was found, I have to believe the unknown compelljng force was transient. If it is something else, then the metal detector will be of service. So too would specimen bottles for samples to test for unusual and persistant chemicals, radiological residue and perhap even sone disease vector originating in something they may have interacted with,
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When Teddy and her colleagues camp on the night of Feb. 1-2 in proximity of the Dyatlov group's tent, maybe a courageous and slightly crazy younger person can begin walking barefooted in one shirt and one pair of pants toward the forest (followed closely by others with blankets, shoes, etc. for the brave soul). If the weather conditions are brutal as in 1959, I don't believe he or she will walk more than 20 minutes before the beginning of hypothermia.
The Dyatlov hikers were in good health and great condition, but they weren't superhuman. The two Yuris, barefoot and wearing the barest of clothing, would have frozen to death long before the two-plus hours that you describe. Just my opinion.
I don't think the two Yuri's were were barefoot and most likely wearing more clothing than they were found in. Remember, there are socks , shirts and clothing found around the ceder and in the den. I don't think the Yuri's left the tent in the clothes they were found.
Hypothermia is a slower process than 20 minutes, if in water and extreme cold, Those plunged into cold water usually drown first from cold shock. That's the inability to keep the head above water whilst gasping for air. They inhale water.
If they are warm in the first instance , like the Dyatlov's then walking a mile in their clothing would make them capable of reaching the ceder, which they seem to have done so. If they were wet and there was windchill, then this would make things worse. The Yuri's were no less barefoot than half of the group. Walking in socks . Igor Dyatlov himself had only one sock on one of his feet but three on the other. That raises a question as to why, at some point did he not stop and spread his socks over both feet. ? Odd for sure.
I don't think there's any argument that people couldn't walk to the ceder, what condition they were in ,or the effects of hypothermia had are open to debate I would suspect they had started to deteriorate, hence the outcome and what we find. It is a fine line between being on a mountain side , in a tent , and being outside the tent in similar clothing. Cold, yes but not an instant hypothermia shock, just a prolonged submission to the cold without the ability to gain heat from fire or shelter. The tipping point was triggered and there was no way to combat it, although it looks like they tried and quite possibly some other calamity happened, falling in a ravine, snow den collapse, falling out of the tree after trying to get dry wood. I think the peace's are there , I just can't weld them together.
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Consider a track where the standard temperature is -20.25 during the day and -40.50 at night. Under these conditions, trips for sports, entertainment and cultural purposes cannot be organized. It is familiar information to hikers that temperature values in the Middle Urals reach extreme degrees of -5 to -12 during the day and -30 at night, and that this can be managed and turned into a fun activity. move throughout the day. You should not be outside in weather that continues to cool down gradually after -15 degrees. However, when you encounter a sudden danger in a closed environment, your sensitivity to analyze the above mentioned disappears and you send your warm bodies into the cold. After 20-30 minutes you realize that you have entered the hypothermic area.
Dear MD Gross, you give the DP group 20 minutes to freeze at -20 degrees. If group members succumbed to hypothermia at -20 degrees for 20 minutes, they should not have gone on this expedition. Because this temperature value is an expected value. If they cannot set up a fire or shelter, I believe they can last 2 or 3 hours if they are moving in -20 -25 degree temperatures.
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I haven't visited the forum for a few days, and I'm very surprised by the etceteras written here.
If a person lives in a warm country, where people fly in the summer to the sea and the beaches, then his assumptions become clear.
I repeat once again, the temperature of minus 15 minus 20 (zero Fahrenheit) is not the temperature at which you can freeze and die.
For some reason, I still haven't died. I went to visit someone on the other side of the town in Russia in the winter, almost an hour of travel at minus 25. I usually don't track the time, but I remember one incident for sure (at minus 17). I arrived by suburbian train at 4 pm, and waited for the passing Murmansk-Moscow train until 8 pm. I didn't die in 4 hours. To die, you have to talk about temperatures of minus 40 and minus 50.
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I haven't visited the forum for a few days, and I'm very surprised by the etceteras written here.
If a person lives in a warm country, where people fly in the summer to the sea and the beaches, then his assumptions become clear.
I repeat once again, the temperature of minus 15 minus 20 (zero Fahrenheit) is not the temperature at which you can freeze and die.
For some reason, I still haven't died. I went to visit someone on the other side of the town in Russia in the winter, almost an hour of travel at minus 25. I usually don't track the time, but I remember one incident for sure (at minus 17). I arrived by suburbian train at 4 pm, and waited for the passing Murmansk-Moscow train until 8 pm. I didn't die in 4 hours. To die, you have to talk about temperatures of minus 40 and minus 50.
I think hypothermia and freezing to death are getting confused, hypothermia can occur in moderate temperatures, wind chill etc , in a house that's not well heated or wet and exposed to the wind. The core body temperature kills. In the extreme of freezing, it's death by hypothermia and the body then freeze's, or found frozen as the the person died and then like dead meat , it freezes. We can all survive -50 c if wearing the right clothes or having an external heat source without exposure.
0c will kill by hypothermia ( and above) with the right conditions. Freezing happens when the temperature dictates on the corpse .
The frostbite suggests it was cold enough to be a challenge on the hikers.
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It is known that survival time in freezing temperatures is directly proportional to mobility. Freezing in a small stream; It starts from the edges where water mobility is least. In the center of the stream where the flow is high, water does not freeze for a long time and continues to flow. If you don't have proper clothes and shelter on a cold night, you'll have to dance commando all night long. For the young people who died in Hamar Daban recently, the cause of death was declared as hypothermia. And at the beginning of August. (Maybe -2 or -5 degrees) So, even though the thesis that what immobilized them was nerve gas was accepted; Ultimately, they lost their lives due to a simple cold because they did not move. Therefore, waiting at the station at -50 (Yakutsk) degrees in a fur coat and snow boots should not be combined with being exposed to low temperatures with inadequate clothing.
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More information and/or views on the weather on Feb 1st and 2nd 1959 is available at:
- https://dyatlovpass.com/burmantovo-weather-february-1959 (https://dyatlovpass.com/burmantovo-weather-february-1959)
- https://dyatlovpass.com/investigation-materials-2?rbid=18461 (https://dyatlovpass.com/investigation-materials-2?rbid=18461)
The journalists' collective Aleksej Rakitin comes to the conclusion - with excellent arguments in chapter 7 of - that the Dyatlov group had arrived at the place where the tent had been found by the first search party around:
- 14:34 and 15:00 pm
On Feb 1st sunset had been around 17:00 pm, but the tent area had been in the shade of Kholat Syakl from around 14:34 pm, because the sun has set behind this mountain.
This includes that it had been relatively 'cold' at the tent area, as every hiker knows.
(https://i.ibb.co/TYLcTMP/Dyatlov-Pass-map111.png) (https://ibb.co/ckLJvh2)
Several other details - as found by the first search party - indicate that the snow conditions on Feb 1st and 2nd had been very good for the hikers, e.g.
- only Rustem had been found in a so-called icebed as seen on the photo in the mortuary, the other 6 group members have no ice-layer over their body where they had been lying on the soil;
- Zinaide had been photographed with natural fibers fixed on her trousers at the place where she had rested on the ground.
Parts of the area between the tent and cedar/ravine may well have been covered with a thin layer of icy; this may explain:
- the fixed natural fibers on the trousers of Zinaida,
- the reason why 6 group members - found by the first search party - had only been wearing socks: socks give more grip on an icy surface than boots or felt shoes.
Remark:
The "Loose" photo 11 and 12 show several signs of being composed from several other photos, like:
- a few too many skies without bindings in the background
- all persons and skies on the photo surrounded by several grey or white pixels
(https://i.ibb.co/10w3Cbc/Unknown-origin-Dyatlov-photos-11aaaa.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K53Ytmn)
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A couple of points Arjan.
:Only Rustem had been reported with an ice bed under him, because it was a different searcher that wrote the report and it was the only body he inspected. We can't exclude that others may also have had an ice bed under them , it's just not reported.
Regarding any of the photos, there are no pixels in any of them . The pixels will be from modern digital cameras taking photos of the original film photos , the quality of that digital camera at the time ( or scanner) , the nature of your own digital screen along with how many times the picture has been repeatedly rescanned etc.
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Thank you Ziljoe, for your two points.
I have rechecked the post mortem photos made by the first search party and made in the mortuary on an icy bed visible or not:
- https://dyatlovpass.com/post-mortem (https://dyatlovpass.com/post-mortem) and
- https://dyatlovpass.com/search-photos.
These photos show or show not:
- Rustem: visible on a nine! photos in the mortuary with an icy bed on his face and on his body that had been lying on the ground after he had been turned over - from lying on his back to lying face down - while his body core still had been around 25 degrees Celsius or so.
- Yuri Kri: visible on the first photo showing him alone, without any trace of an icy bed under his hair and under the shirt of his upper arm. Yuri Kri and Zinaida near the rock: no icy bed at the back of his shirt and head.
- Yuri Dor: no photo available that univocally may discern about an icy bed, although the photo showing both Yuri's next to each other, doesn't show his hair over his forehead covered in icy.
- Igor: photo 3-012 shows him without any trace of an icy bed under his trousers and the shirt of his upper arm.
- Zinaida: photo 3-013 shows her without ice on her trousers, the photo of Zinaida and Rustem doesn't show her covered with an icy bed on her clothes.
- Except Rustem, no other body in the mortuary is visible covered partly of half in an icy bed.
Remark: as abundant the Dyatlov group and search parties had been with photos taking, the frugal the personel in the mortuary had been: in the mortuary, very probably only the really exceptional details had been put on photo.
Coming back on the photos from the 6 films and the loose photos.
Using the forensic magnifier from https://29a.ch/photo-forensics/#forensic-magnifier (https://29a.ch/photo-forensics/#forensic-magnifier), the photos from the six films and the loose photos - that I have checked - show two or three pixel gray/white around the group members.
This putting the members in a 'halo' of two or three pixels may be to:
- highlight the person from the back ground and/or
- camouflage the 'photoshopping' during the development in the dark room and/or
- make the person fully fit in the background from another photo.
Hint: compare 'frame 9' from Thibo's camera with 'loose photo 3': it is 99,9 % certain that Lyudmila had been added to frame 9 afterwards in the dark room.
A Russian Blogger shows more information, see: https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com/85272.html (https://gorojanin-iz-b.livejournal.com/85272.html) for
By the way, the photo showing Yuri Yudin doesn't show a trace of two/three pixels around Yuri Yudin.
(https://i.ibb.co/D8XmGVY/Dyatlov-pass-Yuri-Yudin-13111.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Sorry, typo resulting in a full quote from my message above.
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For the benefit of the casual readers of this thread, the presence of ice on or near the deceased is an indication that the body generated enough heat from skin and breath to melt snow into water. The water refreezes to become ice. The implications are that the person was alive when they fell to earth and (2) they were not subsequently moved post mortem.The inference from this is that Zina, Rustem and Igor separated from the ravine 4 and were travelling toward the location where the tent was discovered. We know this because of how the bodies were oriented when they fell. Next, the main bone of contention is agreeing on why they were found this way.
One idea has it that they were making for the tent in order to do what they could not do when they left it originally. That would mean clearing the tent and resupplying themselves before returning to their comrades in the ravine. A different idea is that they wanted to get out in the open in order to be spotted by a passing airplane. Once they got to a preferred location, we would expect some sort of display seen from air would be made. The questions about what this display would be made of and how much energy to would take to make it are unresolved.
There are forum members who will argue that these three were not running to the tent, but running from a danger, so to speak. That danger has never been adequately identified, only hinted at.
I suggest that loose snow and bad weather forced them all out of their tent. When they left, they headed downhill because it was logical to do so. That is where shelter and firewood were. There, injuries happened and decisions and sacrifices were made. All were certainly hopeful. Nature is indifferent.
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The picture above showing the moment of digging the tent site is one of the last photos. There is no statement that it belongs to another trip. Setting up a tent on the slope is a special situation and this should be documented. After the tent was set up, I expected them to take a few long shots of the tent. There was probably a dire situation and only 2 pictures were taken. The men were very angry and treated a woman who took this picture as gentlemen. In the previous picture, where Dyatlov and Zolo are in the foreground, the weather has started to deteriorate and there is a debate about whether the route should continue from the hill or through the forest. I think they chose the Kholat route and they rose too high from the forest border and lost the view. They were caught in a blizzard. It was a temporary one until the blizzard subsided. They wanted to go under the tent for a while. If you look at the picture, Kroveshenko is in a very bad mood and his beards are covered with snow and they are all wearing hooded hats as a result of a forced choice. tent set up.
There was a large log inside the unburned stove. It had been torn apart and carried to be burned if the temperature dropped too much later that night. Since the tent was very narrow, the stove produced too much heat. It was enough to light it once and it would last you for 4-5 hours. There was no need for extra wood. In a blizzard where you cannot progress any further and you do not know when it will end, there does not seem to be any harm in taking shelter under a tent on a slope that you hope is not dangerous.
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Can we consider the possibility that the stove was used on the last night and in the stormy comditions? Perhaps it became unstable and fell, burning people and their clothes in the process. Next, imagine that the stove was gathered up and set outside to cool before storage. The winds did not abate. Finally, in the extreme comditions they left the tent before it and they were blown off the slope.
This idea may explain the collapsed and cut tent and burns documented by the rescuers, but overlooks the liklihood that anyone suffering a burn at canms going to get it tended to immediately. No tell tale bandages were foumd on bodies, We have no indication in the records that the first aid kit was used, sadly for us, fortunately for them.
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For me; Since there is no firewood on the route, dry wood should be stocked in the stove at the last campsite. I don't think the stove was lit. If there are actual burns in the tent, this can be attributed to accidents at previous campsites. For example, the burnt jacket on Rüstem. They must have left the fire burning next to the tent and forgotten it. Fire can spread through the jacket and the fabric of the tent. What caused them to escape from the tent happened after dinner, before going to sleep. Turning on the stove at 22 or 23 o'clock at night seems ideal. In this case, the stove will continue to burn until 2 or 3 o'clock. Then the warmth of the embers can keep you up until the morning. But there was no sign of a burnt log, ash or stuck stove pipe in the tent.
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Osi, a good analysis. The fact that the stove was stowed is significant, perhaps definitive. I suggest that the stove was set up and used before dinner, Then, trouble developed and the stove was disused after doing it's worst to the hikers. If this is true, I expect bandaging on burns. I expect scorch and smoke residue in the tent and on the hikers.If the stove was used and stowed on the last night, it is certain that the hikers would have to re-dress for warmth in the tent.
In all honesty, I doubt the stove was used the last night because the team could only use ski poles to suspend the center section of the tent on tensioning rope. Of course,h this would be a foolish practice to brace the weight of the tent and by ski poles, not to mention the pressure of cross wind hitting the broad side of the canvas.
The unknown compelling force may well have been the effect of cold owing to a crush of snow on the tent and wind. The hikers would not stay at the tent owing to suffocation under collapsed canvas and hypothermia from lack of movement. So, they cut themselves out and took a chance.
If they camped in the forest, as some suggest, the stove would surely be used because it could be rigged up properly. Then, if a bad thing happened to them and their tent in the forest, it would surely have burned, and we would know.
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If I remember well, several books refer to the 'Cold Night'; these books state that Igor had been famous for including this cold night within his tours. I remember having read as well that a tour had to include a cold night to be classified as a category 3 tour.
There is one obvious reason why it had been silly - using an understatement - to have this cold night at the place where the tent had been found by the first search party, because:
- the group had to reheat themselves (hint: Zinaida had been found with her sweater inside out to let it dry by the frost)
- the group needed additional running water to avoid dehydration.
The ascend from the storage to the tent area had taken two hours or so, and it had been pretty challenging: the ascend had been 35 % on average over one kilometer (carrying a rucksack and skies and poles), without crampons and ice axes as prescibed gear nowadays. For being in a better position to succeed, the group had probably left 5 kg of each rucksack in the storage: around 50 kg of gear had been found in the storage by the first search party.
After two hours hard work during the ascend, the glucose level in the blood of the group members had mainly depleted.
Dehydration is a serious hazard in a cold environment.
Personally I assume that the group had not taken sufficient water with them for the evening and night: the group had needed additional running water for the evening and night.
The list of gear found by the first search party does not include a heating stove for water or food, as well as sufficient firewood for heating water and food.
The weather until Feb 1st 1959 had been not very cold, if I remember well from the sources, so wells had still not been fully frozen.
Looking at the maps for the tent and ravine/cedar area, the ravine had been the place most nearby for finding running water.
In case the group had made the campsite at the tent area, it makes fully sense that two or three group members had descended to the ravine for fetching running water for the night and for gathering firewood for a campfire for heating water and food for the evening and next morning.
Designing a timeline for Feb 1st afternoon:
15:30 pm arrivel at the tent site
16:00 pm two or three group members had arrived at the ravine with around one hour left to return to the tent (1 km distance) and gathering firewood and fetching water
17:00 pm sunset and the campsite would be fully ready for the night with sufficient running water and additional firewood for heating food and melting snow for running water.
According to my analysis, disaster has struck when three group member (Lyudmila, Semyon) had been standing in the ravine (resulting in broken ribcages and eye injuries by whirling debris), and Thibo had been gathering wood on top of the ravine (he had tumbled over and had fallen in the ravine head first, resulting in his head injury).
Looking at the map, the
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Question: Where is the thing they went to get water with? And why did Zolotaryov need a camera for that?
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The main reason for this tragedy is weather conditions. in 2 conditions While the group was moving through Kholat; 1) He was caught in a snowstorm that would continue all night long and could not continue any longer and decided to take a break. 2) The weather is very nice and there is no rain or storm. It is not difficult to find the temperature value with close estimates, but knowing the precipitation conditions is entirely based on assumption. It is completely understandable for me that in good conditions, the tent is pitched on the hillside (perhaps to add a cold night to this trip or to save time and travel), and in difficult conditions, the camping site is chosen there out of necessity. You should be careful when cleaning the snow accumulated on your roof. After cutting a few shovels, it is highly likely that the entire snow layer will suddenly slide. DP members must have faced a similar disaster. If the weather is nice, a few people from the tent have gone down to the forest for some reason. Maybe to bring wood or collect rock samples, etc. The lantern attached to the top of the tent will be lit after 2 hours. An instruction to return in 2 hours. Painful screams coming from the forest and tent residents running to help them.
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The tourists didn't run, they walked. They certainly wouldn't just run around without warm clothes if someone else hadn't prevented them from doing so.
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Teddy has just made a comment about whiteout conditions and dark nights on 1079. We have numerous discussion threads which factor in visibility in their decision to leave the slope, or even the cedar. I am glad she made mention of this. If they indeed were on 1079 and left the tent, in darkness or whiteout, I think it intuitively natural to follow the slope instead of making for boot rock.
Those same conditions could be significant in regard to the ravine 4. I am thinking a collapsed cornice surprise.
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1-meter horizontal bushes growing in stream beds where the flat ground ends and the slope begins can form a 1.5-meter-long bridge with the snow falling on them.
(https://i.ibb.co/5rzyBS3/Ads-z.png) (https://ibb.co/jyx2gQY)
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1-meter horizontal bushes growing in stream beds where the flat ground ends and the slope begins can form a 1.5-meter-long bridge with the snow falling on them.
(https://i.ibb.co/5rzyBS3/Ads-z.png) (https://ibb.co/jyx2gQY)
I like the illustration but cannot find an example of a double opposing snow cornice. The whole point of a cornice is the buildup of snow from upwind. If one built up and the wind switched directions, wouldn't it knock down the opposing cornice? Also, how is it that the cedar is beyond the ravine in relation to the tent yet nobody, not the two Yuri's or den diggers didn't already cross that area and notice a ravine?
(https://i.ibb.co/kSbYKYT/national-avalanche-center-snow-cornice-graphic.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
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1-meter horizontal bushes growing in stream beds where the flat ground ends and the slope begins can form a 1.5-meter-long bridge with the snow falling on them.
(https://i.ibb.co/5rzyBS3/Ads-z.png) (https://ibb.co/jyx2gQY)
I like the illustration but cannot find an example of a double opposing snow cornice. The whole point of a cornice is the buildup of snow from upwind. If one built up and the wind switched directions, wouldn't it knock down the opposing cornice? Also, how is it that the cedar is beyond the ravine in relation to the tent yet nobody, not the two Yuri's or den diggers didn't already cross that area and notice a ravine?
(https://i.ibb.co/kSbYKYT/national-avalanche-center-snow-cornice-graphic.webp) (https://imgbb.com/)
There are a few examples of snow joining across ravines and steep banks , once the two edges meet , the snow makes its own structure like an arch , this we know. We also know that the ravine was fully covered with snow in 1959 as we have the pictures, we also know this doesn't happen every year. If the 9 made it to the ceder , they may have avoided the weaker parts that later caused them to fall or be crushed , or , that was the first part of the incident, someone or some people fell through or into the ravine , thus the Yuri's went to the ceder to start a fire and others started preparing the den where it was found as the others were injured.
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I believe this is the start of the excavation, above the den and the ravine 4
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-31.jpg
This next picture is sometime after the bodies have been moved and the 3 people are standing where the bodies were found and the shadow behind is the trench for the den , we cannot see the bottom of the den but it should be about the head height of the 3 men.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-36A.jpg
We can see the ravine 4 hole and the den behind , from further away in this photo. ( I am assuming that the ceder is to the left of these photos and the tent would be to the right )
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-54-1.jpg
Mt Otorten in the distance and a cornice to the right of the picture in the area of the ceder
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/15-031.jpg
More snow drifts
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/15-026.jpg
Again , cornices and snow drifts with a man for scale in the forest.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/15-020.jpg
All the photos are from the search. Some things I conclude . There is no argument against snow gathering in the ravine to depths of 3 meters , it doesn't matter if it's old wind blown snow or straight down from the sky . In 1959 snow filled that ravine , if they fell through a snow bridge or a cornice , then more snow came after, in the following 3 weeks to again fill in the void . If they had dug a shelter or there was already a snow cave , they may have attempted to utilise a smaller hole and extend it . The den and ravine 4 are actually quite close and there seems to be about I would guess, a 1.5 meters height difference between the den flooring and the ravine 4, perhaps 2 meters if we consider lyuda legs.
What is of interest is, lyuda seems to be lying directly on top of a young tree. The young tree is flat to the ground and held there by Lydia's arm/upper body. We can see what seems to be the branch regain its original natural position after her removal. These observations do suggest movement of the body above and on that branch and the then subsequent resting position as a slide downwards. Have a look and share your thoughts.
Branch next to arm.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-39-1.jpg
Branch still pointing downwards( may need to zoom)
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-41.jpg
Very clear view
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-43.jpg
Branch regained position.
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-44.jpg
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In this article, this hiker warns about snow bridges and cornices, although small, it is an example of what can happen. Technical, a cornice is a ledge , snow can form ledges in many places . We have the potential for ledges , snow bridges and cornices at the ravine , we have photos of these cornices forming in the forest , we also have a ravine full of snow. We have bodies on solid ground at the bottom of a ravine under 2-3 meters of snow with fractures . Should we assume that on the 1st of February 1959 there was little,to no snow in the ravine ? Because if there was little no snow , the snow came in the following 3 weeks because no one else dragged that snow there.
https://www.proteanwanderer.com/2021/01/22/trip-report-hiking-up-the-steep-slopes-of-north-twin-mountain/
What they warn about below.
SAFETY NOTE! As of this writing, I was able to cross the river without issue. The snow bridges are young, however, and the ice still a bit thin in places. Today’s temperatures were sub-freezing without question, however, the water still rushes below, and as long as the river is liquid, it’s not frozen. (That last bit should be common sense, but all too often, “common sense is neither common, nor sense.”)
Obviously, no guarantees can be made that the bridges will be intact, or even robust enough for safe passage, at the time you try crossing the river. Take all appropriate precautions. It should go without saying, but if the bridges don’t appear solid, come back another day. Perhaps consider summiting via another, safer route.
(https://i.ibb.co/LxMnnN0/Screenshot-20250109-195127.png) (https://ibb.co/sKhyyWg)
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Wow, thank you for the clear explanations and pictures to go with them! I have a few questions; this photo shows the ravine and the den behind it. What's with the second den to the right of the ravine? I did notice in some drawings of the area of second den in the theory called "Zolotaryov's Meltdown" on the main site but admit I am lacking in knowledge of it. https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-54-1.jpg
The zoomed in photo of them deceased in the river is very good, the clearest I've seen so far. I can even see Tibo is wearing the two watches, I can't make out where his head is, but I don't think that matters in the grand scheme of things. I'm just surprised he still has most of his features in that one postmortem picture we have of him next to Kolevatov, when his head seems to be submerged somewhere and supposedly receiving the same effects of decomp as the others.
Interesting find about the branch and I see what you mean about it possibly proving a drop from the top. However, she could have easily crawled up to that point and got caught up on it. Seeing the clearer version I also wonder if Kolevatov is really keeping Zolotaryov warm. It's just as easy to assume Kolevatov tackled him on the cornice and that's what collapsed everything. How did Zolotaryov get Dubina's jacket if they all fell at the same time, and she didn't die before the fall? Or maybe he even took it from her while she was still alive but in bad shape and that caused Kolevatov to rush him.
Thanks again for the great explanations. good-posting
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It was suggested somewhere that this extra trench was used as a type of freezer storage area for the bodies retrieved from the ravine . They were decaying and the removal of the bodies was manual on a sleigh which took time . I can not be certain.
Regarding Tibos difference in decomposition, I think the jacket was over his head , his eyes were closed which also help. Friction would be part of the process as well as bacteria etc. It's difficult to say how the water would be flowing before the searchers dug down and removed the snow, I would suspect it would have been different before they removed the snow . He is not wearing his gloves which is odd to me .
I'm not 100% sure about the accuracy of the swapped clothing . There is debate around this also. If they were fighting with each other at the ravine , I don't think the bodies would be lying in those positions. But you never know...
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I like the illustration but cannot find an example of a double opposing snow cornice. The whole point of a cornice is the buildup of snow from upwind. If one built up and the wind switched directions, wouldn't it knock down the opposing cornice? Also, how is it that the cedar is beyond the ravine in relation to the tent yet nobody, not the two Yuri's or den diggers didn't already cross that area and notice a ravine? ESKİ JEDi 72
I definitely didn't want to draw attention to the snow bridge in the illustration drawing. Don't pay attention. In any case, no one would dare to pass over such a formation. Because the probability of collapse is very high. Even for a 50 kg person. However, in one-sided accumulations, sometimes we cannot pay attention and get too close to the edge. Snow clinging and accumulating on a rotten bush will collapse due to the force of pressure.
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0si, that's old jedi you are quoting but have my name at the end.
If there was a snow bridge , they may not have seen it. When it says snow bridge , it could cover an area of several meters. The ravine was covered from one side to the other , how doesn't really matter . Earlier in the winter season, the snow may have filled up the ravine enough , then different thaws would still allow the water to flow leaving a void below which I imply could be a snow bridge or snow cave . We actually have that in may 1959. The searchers were standing and digging on top of a snow bridge, it was a deep layer of snow with water running under it.
It is also possible that it's a one sided formation, there's lots of evidence for that and videos .
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Ziljoe I'm sorry. I haven't been able to gain any skill in quoting. A careless mistake in manual entry.
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Ziljoe I'm sorry. I haven't been able to gain any skill in quoting. A careless mistake in manual entry.
Ha ha. No problem .
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Snow bridges and cornices are well know hazards in mountaineering.
As far as I am aware most victims of collapsing snowbridges fall underbody down in the gap.
When gaining speed to around 10 m/s or a little over 30 km/u, this kind of falls result often in broken bones.
The first main issue with group members falling through collapsing snowbridges and cornices is: the post mortem report lack mentioning:
- broken toes, ankles, knees, legs or sprained ankles, knees
- broken hips, or damaged spines
- broken fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, arms or collar bones or sprained fingers, wrist etc.
The second main issue is:
- the broken ribcage of Semyon as seen on the photo in the mortuary may well have been caused by an impact after a severe fall, but:
- the fatal broken ribcage of Lyudmila as seen on the photo in the mortuary doesn't show any indent or deformation that may indicate an impact after a severe fall.
First remark: The description of the broken ribcage of Lyudmila indicate that she had suffered fatal internal bleedings, probably caused by broken bones damaging blood vessels in her chest.
Second remark: I am not aware of any fatal impact - after a fall - that results in a fatal broken ribcage ànd the fatally damaged ribcage returning afterwards in its normal shape.
Third remark: I am only aware of a hypersonic pressure wave - several bar overpressure during a few milliseconds - followed by an underpressure during a second or so, that may result in the fatal injury of Lyudmila.
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I had to explain the incident with a simple cartoon. Doroshenko and Kriveshenko shouted: "The damn fire is not burning." 7 people who prepared the ditch said, "We cannot reach the morning without fire in this pit." Dyatlov said, "I will try to walk towards the tent, who will come with me? Zolo: you will never succeed, it is too far, we can find a snow cave here." Zina said, "I will go." 2 well-dressed people set off towards the windy hillside. "Let's cross over there and look at the recesses below," Zolo said, pointing to the valley just ahead of the moat. They were moving forward, with Lyutmila in front and Zolo holding Lyutmila's waist and hand. Tibo was following, keeping his hand on Zoloterev's shoulder. They were standing at the top of a 3 or 4 meter mound, trying to figure out where they could pass. They were all in contact with each other. The mound of snow collapsed and they fell face down into the valley. Lyutmila, who was in front, was wounded in the entire chest. One side of Semyon's chest was hit, the other half of his chest was protected by Liyutmila's body. Tibo, who had caused them to fall hard, had fallen over the two of them, but his head was outside this protection. Rüstem also hit his head in a similar way. Kolove, who was at the back, fell not face down, but by scraping his hips, leaving a cut only on the back of his neck. He pulled Rüstem and Tibo from above the others and laid them in the innermost part.He immediately laid Zolotaryov on his side. He wanted to pull Liyutmila up from the waterfall. Litutmila screamed in pain and did not want to retreat. Rib cage injuries may occur in the shock wave. However, the fact that the men with head trauma and Kolove, who did not have any trauma, were in the same shelter is incompatible with shock wave trauma. And the broken bone sinks into the heart. My interpretation is that the heart area of the body should be on the protruding side of the stone.Especially in head traumas, excessive bleeding is observed. If the head injuries had occurred in the tent or on the couch, there would have been bloody pieces of fabric or clothing around.
(https://i.ibb.co/qmsgdb0/IMG-20250110-230927.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6DPtm6v)
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Snow bridges and cornices are well know hazards in mountaineering.
As far as I am aware most victims of collapsing snowbridges fall underbody down in the gap.
When gaining speed to around 10 m/s or a little over 30 km/u, this kind of falls result often in broken bones.
The first main issue with group members falling through collapsing snowbridges and cornices is: the post mortem report lack mentioning:
- broken toes, ankles, knees, legs or sprained ankles, knees
- broken hips, or damaged spines
- broken fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, arms or collar bones or sprained fingers, wrist etc.
The second main issue is:
- the broken ribcage of Semyon as seen on the photo in the mortuary may well have been caused by an impact after a severe fall, but:
- the fatal broken ribcage of Lyudmila as seen on the photo in the mortuary doesn't show any indent or deformation that may indicate an impact after a severe fall.
First remark: The description of the broken ribcage of Lyudmila indicate that she had suffered fatal internal bleedings, probably caused by broken bones damaging blood vessels in her chest.
Second remark: I am not aware of any fatal impact - after a fall - that results in a fatal broken ribcage ànd the fatally damaged ribcage returning afterwards in its normal shape.
Third remark: I am only aware of a hypersonic pressure wave - several bar overpressure during a few milliseconds - followed by an underpressure during a second or so, that may result in the fatal injury of Lyudmila.
Snow bridges and cornices happen everywhere, in low level hikes they are less serious , in mountaineering potential more serious. One is a wet foot or a twisted ankle , the other death. Snow can hide a lot of the terrain below, the question is , was it enough to cause such injuries and how?. ( I think there's scope)
IAM not sure if you are concluding lyudas ribe cage has returned to a normal position from your statement..the two postmortem photos of Zolotaryov and lyuda don't prove much . The bodies have been subjectted to an autopsy. What we see is not the report .
I'm more in favour of a snow collapse on top of them as opposed to a fall. As I agree with you about missing small fractures etc.
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I had to explain the incident with a simple cartoon. Doroshenko and Kriveshenko shouted: "The damn fire is not burning." 7 people who prepared the ditch said, "We cannot reach the morning without fire in this pit." Dyatlov said, "I will try to walk towards the tent, who will come with me? Zolo: you will never succeed, it is too far, we can find a snow cave here." Zina said, "I will go." 2 well-dressed people set off towards the windy hillside. "Let's cross over there and look at the recesses below," Zolo said, pointing to the valley just ahead of the moat. They were moving forward, with Lyutmila in front and Zolo holding Lyutmila's waist and hand. Tibo was following, keeping his hand on Zoloterev's shoulder. They were standing at the top of a 3 or 4 meter mound, trying to figure out where they could pass. They were all in contact with each other. The mound of snow collapsed and they fell face down into the valley. Lyutmila, who was in front, was wounded in the entire chest. One side of Semyon's chest was hit, the other half of his chest was protected by Liyutmila's body. Tibo, who had caused them to fall hard, had fallen over the two of them, but his head was outside this protection. Rüstem also hit his head in a similar way. Kolove, who was at the back, fell not face down, but by scraping his hips, leaving a cut only on the back of his neck. He pulled Rüstem and Tibo from above the others and laid them in the innermost part.He immediately laid Zolotaryov on his side. He wanted to pull Liyutmila up from the waterfall. Litutmila screamed in pain and did not want to retreat. Rib cage injuries may occur in the shock wave. However, the fact that the men with head trauma and Kolove, who did not have any trauma, were in the same shelter is incompatible with shock wave trauma. And the broken bone sinks into the heart. My interpretation is that the heart area of the body should be on the protruding side of the stone.Especially in head traumas, excessive bleeding is observed. If the head injuries had occurred in the tent or on the couch, there would have been bloody pieces of fabric or clothing around.
(https://i.ibb.co/qmsgdb0/IMG-20250110-230927.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6DPtm6v)
Osi, sometimes a simple picture says a thousand words . Something like this is plausible but as Arjan points out we are missing small fractures etc.
However, I think the ravine 4 indicate an accident happened there that finished them off.
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I had to explain the incident with a simple cartoon. Doroshenko and Kriveshenko shouted: "The damn fire is not burning." 7 people who prepared the ditch said, "We cannot reach the morning without fire in this pit." Dyatlov said, "I will try to walk towards the tent, who will come with me? Zolo: you will never succeed, it is too far, we can find a snow cave here." Zina said, "I will go." 2 well-dressed people set off towards the windy hillside. "Let's cross over there and look at the recesses below," Zolo said, pointing to the valley just ahead of the moat. They were moving forward, with Lyutmila in front and Zolo holding Lyutmila's waist and hand. Tibo was following, keeping his hand on Zoloterev's shoulder. They were standing at the top of a 3 or 4 meter mound, trying to figure out where they could pass. They were all in contact with each other. The mound of snow collapsed and they fell face down into the valley. Lyutmila, who was in front, was wounded in the entire chest. One side of Semyon's chest was hit, the other half of his chest was protected by Liyutmila's body. Tibo, who had caused them to fall hard, had fallen over the two of them, but his head was outside this protection. Rüstem also hit his head in a similar way. Kolove, who was at the back, fell not face down, but by scraping his hips, leaving a cut only on the back of his neck. He pulled Rüstem and Tibo from above the others and laid them in the innermost part.He immediately laid Zolotaryov on his side. He wanted to pull Liyutmila up from the waterfall. Litutmila screamed in pain and did not want to retreat. Rib cage injuries may occur in the shock wave. However, the fact that the men with head trauma and Kolove, who did not have any trauma, were in the same shelter is incompatible with shock wave trauma. And the broken bone sinks into the heart. My interpretation is that the heart area of the body should be on the protruding side of the stone.Especially in head traumas, excessive bleeding is observed. If the head injuries had occurred in the tent or on the couch, there would have been bloody pieces of fabric or clothing around.
(https://i.ibb.co/qmsgdb0/IMG-20250110-230927.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6DPtm6v)
Why would they walk side to side and not in single file? They skied single file and had one person in the lead lay track down for the rest. In this case walking single file with minimum footwear would make sense because you could step in the footprints in front. It's really weird seeing your picture and it had occurred to me earlier today that in order for them to have all fallen in the ravine they would have to be side by side. It's very possible it happened that way, but it just seems off. Not to mention the lack of external wounds or bruising to match. And one little thing I keep bringing up, why would Zolo be wearing Dubina's jacket if they all got busted up at the same time? She had already scavenged off of the dead Yuri's for clothes, would she just give Zolo her jacket before the fall when he was one of the ones better dressed from the onset? Hm, or maybe he put on her coat in the tent before he stepped out to pee and take pictures because he assumed he would be going back inside. I love answering my own thought.
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Apologies, it does seem you have them in single file, oops.
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Apologies, it does seem you have them in single file, oops.
My understanding is , is that they walked down the slope side by side , this could be due to stability reasons, poor visibility or blindness , looking for something or trying to make a wider path that may be easier to retrace. I think Osi's picture suggests the could be walking in pairs, group of three , then two etc. His drawing isn't an exact replica , it's an illustration of concept . If the hikers were close enough then some of the injuries could happen by others falling on top of them amplifying the mass of an individual with the injuries we find.
Skiing single file is the easiest way to cut a new trail , Telemark or cross country, when the path is made it is easier for all to follow depending on the snow conditions. As far as I'm aware it is a common thing to do
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The place where they fell must have been the most geographically unusual place in the valley. Such places attract the attention of those who want to create caves. I know that there are no high cliffs, no wells, and no deep canyons in that valley that would accept our diagnosis as definitive. But I imagine people walking huddled together in darkness and hypothermia. While falling, they increased each other's falling speed and injuries by 2 times. In the valley: I must assume that there was no or very little water flow at the beginning of February. Kolovatov couldn't have known that the other 2 people had broken ribs. I don't expect him to treat them like a sensitive doctor. They were going to die in 1 hour anyway. However, he brought them clothes and tried to warm them. During April, there is a great thaw in the land due to temperatures of 10-20 degrees. The amount of water in the stream increases and snow masses begin to shift. Liyutmila was perhaps in the same position as the other three. In the following days, a collapsed pile and the flowing water below gradually changed its position. What do you call small cracks and fractures? Are these things that rule out a fall-related accident?
As I said at the beginning of the title, what chases them out of the tent is a hard snow plate destroying the tent. Blows received in the tent, falls while descending into the forest, falls from trees, etc. Many activities may have occurred before the fatal injuries in Valley 4.
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If any of you have a reasonable request, poet it to my recent thread and Teddy may be able to provide insight when she visists the area soon. Specifically, can she confirm the existance ( safely) that a cornice can form in this area?