3- hour struggle for survival at -15° -20 °

[Ziljoe]

It was suggested somewhere that this extra trench was used as a type of freezer storage area for the bodies retrieved from the ravine . They were decaying and the removal of the bodies was manual on a sleigh which took time .  I can not be certain.

Regarding Tibos difference in decomposition, I think the jacket was over his head , his eyes were closed which also help. Friction would be part of the process as well as bacteria etc. It's difficult to say how the water would be flowing before the searchers dug down and removed the snow, I would suspect it would have been different before they removed the snow . He is not wearing his gloves which is odd to me .

I'm not 100% sure about the accuracy of the swapped clothing . There is debate around this also. If they were fighting with each other at the ravine , I don't think the bodies would be  lying in those positions. But you never know...

[Osi]

I like the illustration but cannot find an example of a double opposing snow cornice. The whole point of a cornice is the buildup of snow from upwind. If one built up and the wind switched directions, wouldn't it knock down the opposing cornice? Also, how is it that the cedar is beyond the ravine in relation to the tent yet nobody, not the two Yuri's or den diggers didn't already cross that area and notice a ravine? ESKİ JEDi 72

 
I definitely didn't want to draw attention to the snow bridge in the illustration drawing. Don't pay attention. In any case, no one would dare to pass over such a formation. Because the probability of collapse is very high. Even for a 50 kg person. However, in one-sided accumulations, sometimes we cannot pay attention and get too close to the edge. Snow clinging and accumulating on a rotten bush will collapse due to the force of pressure.

[Ziljoe]

0si, that's old jedi you are quoting but have my name at the end.

If there was a snow bridge , they may not have seen it. When it says snow bridge , it could cover an area of several meters. The ravine was covered from one side to the other , how doesn't really matter . Earlier in the winter season, the snow may have filled up the ravine enough , then different thaws would still allow the water to flow leaving a void below which I imply could be a snow bridge or snow cave . We actually have that in may 1959. The searchers were standing and digging on top of a snow bridge, it was a deep layer of snow with water running under it.

It is also possible that it's a one sided formation, there's lots of evidence for that and videos .

[Osi]

Ziljoe I'm sorry. I haven't been able to gain any skill in quoting. A careless mistake in manual entry.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe I'm sorry. I haven't been able to gain any skill in quoting. A careless mistake in manual entry.

Ha ha. No problem .

[Arjan]

Snow bridges and cornices are well know hazards in mountaineering.

As far as I am aware most victims of collapsing snowbridges fall underbody down in the gap.
When gaining speed to around 10 m/s or a little over 30 km/u, this kind of falls result often in broken bones.

The first main issue with group members falling through collapsing snowbridges and cornices is: the post mortem report lack mentioning:
- broken toes, ankles, knees, legs or sprained ankles, knees
- broken hips, or damaged spines
- broken fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, arms or collar bones or sprained fingers, wrist etc.

The second main issue is:
- the broken ribcage of Semyon as seen on the photo in the mortuary may well have been caused by an impact after a severe fall, but:
- the fatal broken ribcage of Lyudmila as seen on the photo in the mortuary doesn't show any indent or deformation that may indicate an impact after a severe fall.

First remark: The description of the broken ribcage of Lyudmila indicate that she had suffered fatal internal bleedings, probably caused by broken bones damaging blood vessels in her chest.
Second remark: I am not aware of any fatal impact - after a fall - that results in a fatal broken ribcage ànd the fatally damaged ribcage returning afterwards in its normal shape.
Third remark: I am only aware of a hypersonic pressure wave - several bar overpressure during a few milliseconds - followed by an underpressure during a second or so, that may result in the fatal injury of Lyudmila. 

[Osi]

I had to explain the incident with a simple cartoon. Doroshenko and Kriveshenko shouted: "The damn fire is not burning." 7 people who prepared the ditch said, "We cannot reach the morning without fire in this pit." Dyatlov said, "I will try to walk towards the tent, who will come with me? Zolo: you will never succeed, it is too far, we can find a snow cave here." Zina said, "I will go." 2 well-dressed people set off towards the windy hillside. "Let's cross over there and look at the recesses below," Zolo said, pointing to the valley just ahead of the moat. They were moving forward, with Lyutmila in front and Zolo holding Lyutmila's waist and hand. Tibo was following, keeping his hand on Zoloterev's shoulder. They were standing at the top of a 3 or 4 meter mound, trying to figure out where they could pass. They were all in contact with each other. The mound of snow collapsed and they fell face down into the valley. Lyutmila, who was in front, was wounded in the entire chest. One side of Semyon's chest was hit, the other half of his chest was protected by Liyutmila's body. Tibo, who had caused them to fall hard, had fallen over the two of them, but his head was outside this protection. Rüstem also hit his head in a similar way. Kolove, who was at the back, fell not face down, but by scraping his hips, leaving a cut only on the back of his neck. He pulled Rüstem and Tibo from above the others and laid them in the innermost part.He immediately laid Zolotaryov on his side. He wanted to pull Liyutmila up from the waterfall. Litutmila screamed in pain and did not want to retreat. Rib cage injuries may occur in the shock wave. However, the fact that the men with head trauma and Kolove, who did not have any trauma, were in the same shelter is incompatible with shock wave trauma. And the broken bone sinks into the heart. My interpretation is that the heart area of ​​the body should be on the protruding side of the stone.Especially in head traumas, excessive bleeding is observed. If the head injuries had occurred in the tent or on the couch, there would have been bloody pieces of fabric or clothing around.

[Ziljoe]

Snow bridges and cornices are well know hazards in mountaineering.

As far as I am aware most victims of collapsing snowbridges fall underbody down in the gap.
When gaining speed to around 10 m/s or a little over 30 km/u, this kind of falls result often in broken bones.

The first main issue with group members falling through collapsing snowbridges and cornices is: the post mortem report lack mentioning:
- broken toes, ankles, knees, legs or sprained ankles, knees
- broken hips, or damaged spines
- broken fingers, hands, wrists, elbows, arms or collar bones or sprained fingers, wrist etc.

The second main issue is:
- the broken ribcage of Semyon as seen on the photo in the mortuary may well have been caused by an impact after a severe fall, but:
- the fatal broken ribcage of Lyudmila as seen on the photo in the mortuary doesn't show any indent or deformation that may indicate an impact after a severe fall.

First remark: The description of the broken ribcage of Lyudmila indicate that she had suffered fatal internal bleedings, probably caused by broken bones damaging blood vessels in her chest.
Second remark: I am not aware of any fatal impact - after a fall - that results in a fatal broken ribcage ànd the fatally damaged ribcage returning afterwards in its normal shape.
Third remark: I am only aware of a hypersonic pressure wave - several bar overpressure during a few milliseconds - followed by an underpressure during a second or so, that may result in the fatal injury of Lyudmila.

Snow bridges and cornices happen everywhere, in low level hikes they are less serious , in mountaineering potential more serious. One is a wet foot or a twisted ankle , the other death. Snow can hide a lot of the terrain below, the question is , was it enough to cause such injuries and how?. ( I think there's scope)

IAM not sure if you are concluding lyudas ribe cage has returned to a normal position from your statement..the two postmortem photos of Zolotaryov and lyuda don't prove much . The bodies have been subjectted to an autopsy. What we see is not the report .

I'm more in favour of a snow collapse on top of them as opposed to a fall. As I agree with you about missing small fractures etc.

[Ziljoe]

I had to explain the incident with a simple cartoon. Doroshenko and Kriveshenko shouted: "The damn fire is not burning." 7 people who prepared the ditch said, "We cannot reach the morning without fire in this pit." Dyatlov said, "I will try to walk towards the tent, who will come with me? Zolo: you will never succeed, it is too far, we can find a snow cave here." Zina said, "I will go." 2 well-dressed people set off towards the windy hillside. "Let's cross over there and look at the recesses below," Zolo said, pointing to the valley just ahead of the moat. They were moving forward, with Lyutmila in front and Zolo holding Lyutmila's waist and hand. Tibo was following, keeping his hand on Zoloterev's shoulder. They were standing at the top of a 3 or 4 meter mound, trying to figure out where they could pass. They were all in contact with each other. The mound of snow collapsed and they fell face down into the valley. Lyutmila, who was in front, was wounded in the entire chest. One side of Semyon's chest was hit, the other half of his chest was protected by Liyutmila's body. Tibo, who had caused them to fall hard, had fallen over the two of them, but his head was outside this protection. Rüstem also hit his head in a similar way. Kolove, who was at the back, fell not face down, but by scraping his hips, leaving a cut only on the back of his neck. He pulled Rüstem and Tibo from above the others and laid them in the innermost part.He immediately laid Zolotaryov on his side. He wanted to pull Liyutmila up from the waterfall. Litutmila screamed in pain and did not want to retreat. Rib cage injuries may occur in the shock wave. However, the fact that the men with head trauma and Kolove, who did not have any trauma, were in the same shelter is incompatible with shock wave trauma. And the broken bone sinks into the heart. My interpretation is that the heart area of ​​the body should be on the protruding side of the stone.Especially in head traumas, excessive bleeding is observed. If the head injuries had occurred in the tent or on the couch, there would have been bloody pieces of fabric or clothing around.

Osi, sometimes a simple picture says a thousand words . Something like this is plausible but as Arjan points out we are missing small fractures etc.

However, I think the ravine 4 indicate an accident happened there that finished them off.

[OLD JEDI 72]

I had to explain the incident with a simple cartoon. Doroshenko and Kriveshenko shouted: "The damn fire is not burning." 7 people who prepared the ditch said, "We cannot reach the morning without fire in this pit." Dyatlov said, "I will try to walk towards the tent, who will come with me? Zolo: you will never succeed, it is too far, we can find a snow cave here." Zina said, "I will go." 2 well-dressed people set off towards the windy hillside. "Let's cross over there and look at the recesses below," Zolo said, pointing to the valley just ahead of the moat. They were moving forward, with Lyutmila in front and Zolo holding Lyutmila's waist and hand. Tibo was following, keeping his hand on Zoloterev's shoulder. They were standing at the top of a 3 or 4 meter mound, trying to figure out where they could pass. They were all in contact with each other. The mound of snow collapsed and they fell face down into the valley. Lyutmila, who was in front, was wounded in the entire chest. One side of Semyon's chest was hit, the other half of his chest was protected by Liyutmila's body. Tibo, who had caused them to fall hard, had fallen over the two of them, but his head was outside this protection. Rüstem also hit his head in a similar way. Kolove, who was at the back, fell not face down, but by scraping his hips, leaving a cut only on the back of his neck. He pulled Rüstem and Tibo from above the others and laid them in the innermost part.He immediately laid Zolotaryov on his side. He wanted to pull Liyutmila up from the waterfall. Litutmila screamed in pain and did not want to retreat. Rib cage injuries may occur in the shock wave. However, the fact that the men with head trauma and Kolove, who did not have any trauma, were in the same shelter is incompatible with shock wave trauma. And the broken bone sinks into the heart. My interpretation is that the heart area of ​​the body should be on the protruding side of the stone.Especially in head traumas, excessive bleeding is observed. If the head injuries had occurred in the tent or on the couch, there would have been bloody pieces of fabric or clothing around.

Why would they walk side to side and not in single file? They skied single file and had one person in the lead lay track down for the rest. In this case walking single file with minimum footwear would make sense because you could step in the footprints in front. It's really weird seeing your picture and it had occurred to me earlier today that in order for them to have all fallen in the ravine they would have to be side by side. It's very possible it happened that way, but it just seems off. Not to mention the lack of external wounds or bruising to match. And one little thing I keep bringing up, why would Zolo be wearing Dubina's jacket if they all got busted up at the same time? She had already scavenged off of the dead Yuri's for clothes, would she just give Zolo her jacket before the fall when he was one of the ones better dressed from the onset? Hm, or maybe he put on her coat in the tent before he stepped out to pee and take pictures because he assumed he would be going back inside. I love answering my own thought.

[OLD JEDI 72]

Apologies, it does seem you have them in single file, oops.

[Ziljoe]

Apologies, it does seem you have them in single file, oops.

My understanding is , is that they walked down the slope side by side , this could be due to stability reasons, poor visibility or blindness , looking for something or trying to make a wider path that may be easier to retrace. I think Osi's picture suggests the could be walking in pairs, group of three , then two etc. His drawing isn't an exact replica , it's an illustration of concept . If the hikers were close enough then some of the injuries could happen by others falling on top of them amplifying the mass of an individual with the injuries we find.

Skiing single file is the easiest way to cut a new trail , Telemark or cross country, when the path is made it is easier for all to follow depending on the snow conditions. As far as I'm aware it is a common thing to do

[Osi]

The place where they fell must have been the most geographically unusual place in the valley. Such places attract the attention of those who want to create caves. I know that there are no high cliffs, no wells, and no deep canyons in that valley that would accept our diagnosis as definitive. But I imagine people walking huddled together in darkness and hypothermia. While falling, they increased each other's falling speed and injuries by 2 times. In the valley: I must assume that there was no or very little water flow at the beginning of February. Kolovatov couldn't have known that the other 2 people had broken ribs. I don't expect him to treat them like a sensitive doctor. They were going to die in 1 hour anyway. However, he brought them clothes and tried to warm them. During April, there is a great thaw in the land due to temperatures of 10-20 degrees. The amount of water in the stream increases and snow masses begin to shift. Liyutmila was perhaps in the same position as the other three. In the following days, a collapsed pile and the flowing water below gradually changed its position. What do you call small cracks and fractures? Are these things that rule out a fall-related accident?

As I said at the beginning of the title, what chases them out of the tent is a hard snow plate destroying the tent. Blows received in the tent, falls while descending into the forest, falls from trees, etc. Many activities may have occurred before the fatal injuries in Valley 4.

[GlennM]

If any of you have a reasonable request, poet it to my recent thread and Teddy may be able to provide insight when she visists the area soon. Specifically, can she confirm the existance ( safely) that a cornice can form in this area?