Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: amashilu on November 10, 2025, 07:14:12 AM
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Something that puzzles me .... we have nine experienced, skilled, strong hikers, including one who had gone through World War II, and yet it is repeatedly suggested that one or more of them stepped into the wrong area of snow and fell into a ravine. I'm pretty sure they knew they were near the water, so wouldn't they naturally be on the alert for this kind of danger? There are indications in the shape and pattern of the snow when water is underneath. Is it really likely that one -- or four -- of these skilled and experienced hikers simply fell through some snow into a rocky ravine?
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Something that puzzles me .... we have nine experienced, skilled, strong hikers, including one who had gone through World War II, and yet it is repeatedly suggested that one or more of them stepped into the wrong area of snow and fell into a ravine. I'm pretty sure they knew they were near the water, so wouldn't they naturally be on the alert for this kind of danger? There are indications in the shape and pattern of the snow when water is underneath. Is it really likely that one -- or four -- of these skilled and experienced hikers simply fell through some snow into a rocky ravine?
That should not be the case. Four hikers started to make a den in the ravine using young trees as flooring. In May the trees' trunks were found almost at the bottom of the ravine. This indicates that there was little snow there -- most probably the ravine represented mixture of rocks and snow, it was not covered by snow in a way that it could be possible to fall through snow and get injured. The hikers should be able to clearly see ravine's landscape and avoid any potentially dangerous areas. At the same time, I do not argue that all 4 hikers received their horrible injuries in the ravine. Actually, they lied on their wounds, and it looks like some force knocked them down and pushed against rocks. The only exception was Aleksandr Kolevatov, but he might fell on snow, not on a rock, that's why his bones remained intact.
Despite Mr.Vozrozhdenny remark that Luda could be able to move for about 20 minutes and Semyon even longer, I do not think that anybody moved an inch after the deadly impact occurred. Probably all of them lied motionless, unconscious until they died. And there were nobody alive to move their bodies, as they had done previously with two Yuras. By the end of February heaps of snow covered the ravine up to the top with people and den's flooring at the bottom.
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Something that puzzles me .... we have nine experienced, skilled, strong hikers, including one who had gone through World War II, and yet it is repeatedly suggested that one or more of them stepped into the wrong area of snow and fell into a ravine. I'm pretty sure they knew they were near the water, so wouldn't they naturally be on the alert for this kind of danger? There are indications in the shape and pattern of the snow when water is underneath. Is it really likely that one -- or four -- of these skilled and experienced hikers simply fell through some snow into a rocky ravine?
Many hikers fall through snow holes or cornices, irrelevant of their experience or skills. I am pretty confident that others that walked the area of the ravine reported falling into snow drifts and falling through soft or unsupported snow drifts. This is why skis and snow shoes exist. We don't know if the ravine was full of snow , empty or bits of it were filled in.
Below we can see the start of a cornice from "RAVINE BY SHURA ALEKSEENKOV AND SASHA KAN" 2019. Below this build up of snow , the stream is well hidden . Also remember that those in the video know there's a stream , haven't built a labaz , haven't climbed 1079 , dug a snow trench and pitched a tent to then be startled by something in the middle of the night that forces them to navigate a slope with rocks and gulley . It was a long day for the Dyatlov group and context is important.
https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan#:~:text=RAVINE%20BY%20SHURA%20ALEKSEENKOV%20AND%20SASHA%20KAN
Video of the ravine and potential conditions below
https://youtu.be/hVDsAmRz9a8?si=XgWKDzywkDS_sqy5
Video of falling ( slowly) through the cornice/snow bridge below.
https://youtu.be/5-Wd1I5b8b8?si=ukVv4BUT1enq7h2n
The terrain in a forest is very uneven and varies in depth of snow which can be extremely exhausting to navigate, we know there can be drifts of snow up to and over 3 meters , the ability of that snow to be able to support a human will vary every season. However , this does not mean the hikers fell or were crushed in the ravine but equally it doesn't mean they weren't.
That should not be the case. Four hikers started to make a den in the ravine using young trees as flooring. In May the trees' trunks were found almost at the bottom of the ravine. This indicates that there was little snow there -- most probably the ravine represented mixture of rocks and snow, it was not covered by snow in a way that it could be possible to fall through snow and get injured. The hikers should be able to clearly see ravine's landscape and avoid any potentially dangerous areas. At the same time, I do not argue that all 4 hikers received their horrible injuries in the ravine. Actually, they lied on their wounds, and it looks like some force knocked them down and pushed against rocks. The only exception was Aleksandr Kolevatov, but he might fell on snow, not on a rock, that's why his bones remained intact.
Despite Mr.Vozrozhdenny remark that Luda could be able to move for about 20 minutes and Semyon even longer, I do not think that anybody moved an inch after the deadly impact occurred. Probably all of them lied motionless, unconscious until they died. And there were nobody alive to move their bodies, as they had done previously with two Yuras. By the end of February heaps of snow covered the ravine up to the top with people and den's flooring at the bottom.
Unfortunately we don't know how deep the snow was , however they were basically found at ground or stream bed level and it is a mystery. There was evidently movement between the cedar and the ravine but I do wonder which came first. The den or the fire.
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Yes, but they knew the ravine was there, and all of their cumulative skills and experience, not to mention the extra advantage of a WW II veteran, should make falling through the snow into the ravine an unlikely occurrence. It is more of a rookie mistake.
My brother and I spent much of our childhood exploring the snowy, frozen creeks of northern Minnesota and we learned to recognize depressions in the snow, softening melty snow, trickling sounds, and other signs indicating that we were close to a ravine. I get what you're saying, Ziljoe, but I still think falling through the snow into the ravine they knew was there, is unlikely.
Senior Maldonado suggests that they didn't fall through the snow, but some force smacked them against the rocks in the ravine. Now I'm wondering about that. What force might be able to do that?
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I'm not sure that the hikers would have known exactly where the stream was and if there was or wasn't a depression in the snow. Anyway, it's an obstacle or feature in the landscape , they obviously crossed the ravine or some other part of the stream. I would whole heartedly say that when they crossed the stream someone got wet. Some of the banks are quite steep without snow , if there were different depths to the snow , on the banks and over the stream then stumbles ,slipes and falls would occur. I even gave consideration that the den flooring may have been a bridge at ground level to aid some sort of crossing .
I favour a collapse of snow from above but that has its holes too.
I am waiting for Senior Maldonado with mild anticipation too.
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You've overdone it with the Dyatlov group's experience. And Zolotarev's was quite unique.
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Now I'm wondering about that. What force might be able to do that?
The force of gravity acted here. The decisive factor was the way they walked and fell here – in pairs. They were simply too heavy at that moment in that place. They fell and did not move again, and no one else was alive.
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Ziljoe
„ ..but I do wonder which came first. The den or the fire.“
Fire and then den.
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I favour a collapse of snow from above but that has its holes too.
I am waiting for Senior Maldonado with mild anticipation too.
Even big mass of snow could not be resposible for the Ravine 4 injuries. I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave. Wave's front acts as a big hummer, it strikes, throws people to the ground. Front is immediately followed by zone of very high pressure. And in our case that high-pressure airflow acted as a press. It pushed the hikers into creek's rocks and fractured their bones. The wave acted from up to down and from slope to the forest (=ravine). Slope->Forest component of the force overturned people to the ground, while Up->Down component pressed their bodies into rocks. I do not believe anybody was able to move after that. And then timer started what would come first -- death from injuries or death from hypothermia.
Please, do not throw stones at me, it's how I see that sad episode...
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For a mass of snow to cover them while they were still alive is nonsense. They would end up suffocating. There was a selective force at work in the ravine. It broke some people's ribs, it protected others' ribs, and others suffered head injuries. This is because Luda and Zolotaryov were pressed from two sides – from the ground and from the body of the other in the pair. The second pair had different injuries because they came into contact with the ground at a different point.
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I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave.
I am inclined to agree with you, Senior Maldonado. An explosive air wave checks all the boxes. It could also account for Krivonischenko's leg burn, Teddy's tree falling, and the so-called "window" in the cedar where all the thick branches were torn off.
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I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave.
I am inclined to agree with you, Senior Maldonado. An explosive air wave checks all the boxes. It could also account for Krivonischenko's leg burn, Teddy's tree falling, and the so-called "window" in the cedar where all the thick branches were torn off.
I would disagree . It may tick a couple of boxes but certainly not all.
1), the branches on the cedar were used to make a fire and insulation around the fire. There are no reports of any sort of blast wave on any other trees or any other reports of debris in the snow layers , which , given my lack of expertise in the matter , I would expect to be reported by the searchers and Mansi hunters. The only debris found were during the thaw and that is the trail of twigs and clothes to the den . In my opinion there would be significant evidence off broken twigs , trees, branches , pine needles within in the layer of snow that would stick out lick a sore thumb .
2)doctor Vozrozhdenny said many things and many people have said he said things without saying everything he said. doctor Vozrozhdenny also says that the injuries could have been caused by a fall, squeeze , car crash. Ultimately he implies a high impact.
3) he does not say "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".
Here is the transcript when Ivanov asks him.
Question: How can the origin of the injuries to Dubinina and Zolotarev be explained? Can they be linked to a single cause?
Answer: I believe the nature of Dubinina and Zolotarev's injuries—multiple rib fractures: bilateral and symmetrical in Dubinina's, unilateral in Zolotarev's—as well as hemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle in both Dubinina and Zolotarev, with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavities, indicate that they were injured while they were still alive and are the result of a high-force impact, approximately the same as that applied to Thibault. These injuries, specifically with this pattern and without disruption of the soft tissues of the chest, are very similar to an injury caused by an air blast.
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He says very similar , it is this paraphrasing that annoys me . It is quite acceptable that he gives an opinion but it is not a fact , it is also acceptable that some sort of potential theory involving a blast wave is considered but to say or imply it is a fact and that what was said is misleading.
Context is important. What did Vozrozhdenny actually say and Which statement is true?
A)"the hikers were affected by explosive air wave"
Or
B)"are very similar to an injury caused by an air blast"
Apologies to all but the DPI is full of this.
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I favour a collapse of snow from above but that has its holes too.
I am waiting for Senior Maldonado with mild anticipation too.
Even big mass of snow could not be resposible for the Ravine 4 injuries. I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave. Wave's front acts as a big hummer, it strikes, throws people to the ground. Front is immediately followed by zone of very high pressure. And in our case that high-pressure airflow acted as a press. It pushed the hikers into creek's rocks and fractured their bones. The wave acted from up to down and from slope to the forest (=ravine). Slope->Forest component of the force overturned people to the ground, while Up->Down component pressed their bodies into rocks. I do not believe anybody was able to move after that. And then timer started what would come first -- death from injuries or death from hypothermia.
Please, do not throw stones at me, it's how I see that sad episode...
Some say a crushing by snow , some say it's not possible.
Your doctor does not say. "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".
He speculates it is a similar. That is, to what might have happened but he does not say what evidence would be in the local environment that would confirm your conclusion.
Please do not make facts out of speculation.
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"Please do not make facts out of speculation."
Ziljoe, your emphasis on facts is, as always, laudable. However, there are not enough facts in this mystery to come to a conclusion. Therefore, speculation, new points of view, and thinking outside the box, are welcome and encouraged.
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"Please do not make facts out of speculation."
Ziljoe, your emphasis on facts is, as always, laudable. However, there are not enough facts in this mystery to come to a conclusion. Therefore, speculation, new points of view, and thinking outside the box, are welcome and encouraged.
There are some facts , we just don't need to have them confused. When someone puts a case or theory forward, it is indeed a great thing. I can assure you I am not confident in my own interpretation of event's.
However, saying an important witness from the case files said "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave" is misleading the reader when what is actually said , "are very similar to an injury caused by an air blast" does not help new readers .
You have agreed with and re-quoted a miss quote. I really don't think that helps the forum but by all means , carry on with the idea of some air blast or explosion that no one reported any possibility of.
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Yes, it would be very strange if the blast wave chose only one tree and exactly the one where the fire was and left the tourists lying almost in a row next to each other in the ravine.
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Your doctor does not say. "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".
He speculates it is a similar. That is, to what might have happened but he does not say what evidence would be in the local environment that would confirm your conclusion.
Please do not make facts out of speculation.
When I said that I leveraged on Mr.Vozrozhdenny comment, i did not quote him. There were my own words how I understand what happened with Ravine 4 hikers. Moreover, I fully agree, if we take doctor's exact words alone, it gives us nothing, just one more option that needs to be investigated. And then, it's a matter of approach. My approach is to proceed from the point where Ivanov and his team had to stop in 1959. I do not think that now anybody is able to perform new investigation from point zero and come to the right cause. For me it makes no sense to introduce options that are not even mentioned in the 1959 files like an avalanche or hidden cavity in snow in the ravine.
Concerning the blast --
As Mr.Vozrozhdenny's mentioning of an air wave set certain trigger, we should see where to go next. And the next stop in that direction is another comment, which was provided by Lev Ivanov in the "Fireballs Mystery" article:
"When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter."
Where were those trees found? At the forest tree line, which is right behind the ravine, where 4 bodies were found. And Ivanov found it necessary to mention those trees in the article, where he tried to summarize all important facts and conclusions about DPI. It's very unlikely that he would have wasted his time diverting to talk about just naturally sick trees or trees touched by sunlight. In case of sunlight, there should have been clear pattern, the trees would have been affected from the South and not from the North. Talking about possible epicenter Ivanov provides clear signal that looking at the trees he suspected flames from an explosion first of all.
There are further steps on this investigation path. Follow it or not, as I said, is a matter of approach.
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Your doctor does not say. "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".
He speculates it is a similar. That is, to what might have happened but he does not say what evidence would be in the local environment that would confirm your conclusion.
Please do not make facts out of speculation.
When I said that I leveraged on Mr.Vozrozhdenny comment, i did not quote him. There were my own words how I understand what happened with Ravine 4 hikers. Moreover, I fully agree, if we take doctor's exact words alone, it gives us nothing, just one more option that needs to be investigated. And then, it's a matter of approach. My approach is to proceed from the point where Ivanov and his team had to stop in 1959. I do not think that now anybody is able to perform new investigation from point zero and come to the right cause. For me it makes no sense to introduce options that are not even mentioned in the 1959 files like an avalanche or hidden cavity in snow in the ravine.
Concerning the blast --
As Mr.Vozrozhdenny's mentioning of an air wave set certain trigger, we should see where to go next. And the next stop in that direction is another comment, which was provided by Lev Ivanov in the "Fireballs Mystery" article:
"When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter."
Where were those trees found? At the forest tree line, which is right behind the ravine, where 4 bodies were found. And Ivanov found it necessary to mention those trees in the article, where he tried to summarize all important facts and conclusions about DPI. It's very unlikely that he would have wasted his time diverting to talk about just naturally sick trees or trees touched by sunlight. In case of sunlight, there should have been clear pattern, the trees would have been affected from the South and not from the North. Talking about possible epicenter Ivanov provides clear signal that looking at the trees he suspected flames from an explosion first of all.
There are further steps on this investigation path. Follow it or not, as I said, is a matter of approach.
I love your questioning of what was or what might be. . could you give a diagram of the trees he was referring to as I get mixed up . I didn't read anything about the trees from the north being burnt. I'm a also a bit confused about why he said there was no epicenter. What does this mean?
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Lev Ivanov: " .... When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov * * we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter. This once again confirmed a source of heat ray or completely unknown to us energy acting selectively - the snow was not melted, the trees were not damaged."
He is saying that there was no pattern. The damaged trees seemed randomly selected or targeted almost as if on purpose.
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Exactly. Would that not be the opposite of an explosion or blast ?
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Could you give a diagram of the trees he was referring to as I get mixed up.
Sure. Here you are. The ravine, where the 4 bodies were found, was located right in front of the forest -- its tree line. And Lev Ivanov spoke about young trees that had been lightly burned with no obvious pattern and had been somewhere at the tree line. Unfortunately, Mr.Ivanov has not provided more precise location of the young trees.
(https://i.ibb.co/GffTrYXN/Ravine-and-tree-line.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cKKLsfPV)
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Could you give a diagram of the trees he was referring to as I get mixed up.
Sure. Here you are. The ravine, where the 4 bodies were found, was located right in front of the forest -- its tree line. And Lev Ivanov spoke about young trees that had been lightly burned with no obvious pattern and had been somewhere at the tree line. Unfortunately, Mr.Ivanov has not provided more precise location of the young trees.
(https://i.ibb.co/GffTrYXN/Ravine-and-tree-line.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cKKLsfPV)
When it's dark, you need light.
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It's no mystery. The four needed to see and at the same time needed to have their hands free, so they solved it this way. One can also agree with Ivanov's next statement.
„It seemed like when the hikers walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down from the mountain, someone dealt with some of them as direct targets.“
On the slope, an unknown (known) force demonstrated what it can do.
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Would that not be the opposite of an explosion or blast ?
OK, let's make an attempt to understand what it could be.
Obviously, on finding young trees that were lightly burned, Ivanov started to look for traces of possible explosion, as he talks about epicenter. But he failed to find one. This matches his another comment that there was no pattern in how the trees had been burned. If a classic bomb is detonated, the epicenter is the bomb's body at the moment of explosion. Depending on what is bomb's body position towards a tree, the tree will be burned more at the bomb's side and less at the opposite side. The same is true if a bomb is detonated above a tree -- lower branches will be affected less than upper ones. But in Ivanov's case, as he says "no pattern", it was not possible to detect from which direction flames came. All that made him think about "heat ray or completely unknown to us energy acting selectively".
My conclusion is quite different from Ivanov's. "No pattern" and randomly scattered burns from all sides of the trees probably mean that some flamable substance was dispersed in the air unevenly. Then someting ignited it. And concentration of that substance was low, since the young trees were burned just lightly while other trees did not have visible burns. In this case, indeed, there was no epicenter, or if you like, there were many small epicenters in the air in the area, where the young trees were located.
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There are several explanations for his observations.
Could he not be witnessing windburn or winterburn. It fits his description perfectly. It is strange that no other person mentions this , especially the Mansi as the caretakers and workers of the land or the forester's. If he witnessed this burning , why would he not say that it was not wind burn.
The treeline means the edge of the forest and your picture is of the edge of the ridge( still exposed to the wind) . The snow has been thawing and it is spring and this wind burn occurs from the wind more than the sun and it occurs at treelines . There would be no epicenter exactly as he describes?
"It seemed like when the hikers walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down from the mountain, someone dealt with some of them as direct targets.“
By all accounts he seems to have let his imagination wonder to try and fit what he couldn't understand. He doesn't give a date for this conclusion and he was hardly at the pass .
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Could he not be witnessing windburn or winterburn. It fits his description perfectly. It is strange that no other person mentions this , especially the Mansi as the caretakers and workers of the land or the forester's. If he witnessed this burning , why would he not say that it was not wind burn.
I assume that Ivanov was experienced and thorough investigator. I see no reason for him to talk about "heat ray" or "completely unknown energy", if he faced just sick branches dried by winter wind. And Maslennikov, who was master of hiking, should have seen a lot of trees exposed to wind in winter. He would have stopped Ivanov in his search for epicenter and explain him that such a picture is normal.
You say that Mansi do not mention burned young tress. Are there any Mansi evidence available, where they talk about the slope and the ravine areas?
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I think I read somewhere that Ivanov didn't see the finished article before print and the press or media have always exaggerated their articles for sales. There a number of contradictory statements in the article and this is highlighted in another thread on the dyatlov website.
I have no way to measure if ivanov was experienced and thorough and I don't know if Maslennikov even mentions these burnt looking trees. If Ivanovo was thorough then it begs the question why he didn't take some branches for analysis, especially when he claims the place was radio active or state that he eliminated the possibility that it was not windburn. He just states a visual observation and speculates a heat ray and some energy. Hardly thorough in my opinion, when you investigate, you also eliminate possibilities and find out .
It also peculiar that he doesn't state this in the casefiles when he is informed of the autopsy results and that an air blast could cause such injuries.
I don't recall the Masni mentioning burnt tree's, it would be exciting if the have.
However, pushing my cynical side away , let's run with what we have got.
Injuries that are similar to an air blast , some potential singed trees that could be caused by some sort of fuel combustion in the air ?
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It seems strange to me that some energy from the air would only choose young trees and some of them at that. It looks more like they were chosen intentionally for their availability and ease of ignition to illuminate the area and provide better orientation. It's darker in the forest after all. And since they were covered in snow, the burning took on different forms.
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"It seemed like when the hikers walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down from the mountain, someone dealt with some of them as direct targets.“
By all accounts he seems to have let his imagination wonder to try and fit what he couldn't understand. He doesn't give a date for this conclusion and he was hardly at the pass .
If dead hikers were actually found on the slope, it cannot be fantasy, but reality. After a direct hit from an unknown (known) force, these 3 hikers did not make it any further.
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If dead hikers were actually found on the slope, it cannot be fantasy, but reality. After a direct hit from an unknown (known) force, these 3 hikers did not make it any further.
Zina, Rustem, and Igor were found on a single line, which went from the Cedar tree uphill, probably straight to the tent. The search team mentioned that those hikers laid on the ground in "dynamic poses", as though they died very quickly (got frozen on march?). This allows to put forward a theory that all 3 of them attempted to go back to the tent but managed to cover just part of distance, which is weird as all three were strong and trained.
This further allows to develop the theory that something killed them very quickly, as soon as they crossed invisible border. It could be that when UFO (Ivanov calls it this way) landed close to the tent, and its hard landing collapsed northen part of the tent, the tent's site got into affected zone. On levaing the tent, hikers somehow evaluated size of the affected zone and moved out of it, eventually coming to the Cedar tree. When it became critical to fetch missing clothes, equipment, medicine, Zina, Rustem, and Igor tried to go back in turn. But they did not take into account that the affected zone kept expanding in direction to the ravine/Cedar. As soon as a hiker reached front of approaching affected zone, he/she died very quickly. Finally, affected zone reached the ravine, and that was end of the story.
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Senior Maldonado, a couple years ago on this site there was a video from one of the annual conferences that featured some high-level officials presenting their conclusion that the incident was caused by a rocket malfunctioning, flying over the area, and dripping NO2, a poisonous gas. This poisoned the hikers, as evidenced by the gray foam on at least one of their mouths. I can't find this video right now, but I think it's under Materials Modern (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?board=35.0). They presented a lot of impressive evidence.
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If dead hikers were actually found on the slope, it cannot be fantasy, but reality. After a direct hit from an unknown (known) force, these 3 hikers did not make it any further.
Zina, Rustem, and Igor were found on a single line, which went from the Cedar tree uphill, probably straight to the tent. The search team mentioned that those hikers laid on the ground in "dynamic poses", as though they died very quickly (got frozen on march?). This allows to put forward a theory that all 3 of them attempted to go back to the tent but managed to cover just part of distance, which is weird as all three were strong and trained.
This further allows to develop the theory that something killed them very quickly, as soon as they crossed invisible border. It could be that when UFO (Ivanov calls it this way) landed close to the tent, and its hard landing collapsed northen part of the tent, the tent's site got into affected zone. On levaing the tent, hikers somehow evaluated size of the affected zone and moved out of it, eventually coming to the Cedar tree. When it became critical to fetch missing clothes, equipment, medicine, Zina, Rustem, and Igor tried to go back in turn. But they did not take into account that the affected zone kept expanding in direction to the ravine/Cedar. As soon as a hiker reached front of approaching affected zone, he/she died very quickly. Finally, affected zone reached the ravine, and that was end of the story.
Only two of them were found in dynamic poses, so Dyatlov was not returning anywhere.
Then there is Slobodin, who had everything he needed to write a note, but he didn't. Nor did anyone else borrow his writing utensils and take notes.
The end of the story was when the force that caused everything ceased to exist once all the hikers died.
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Senior Maldonado, a couple years ago on this site there was a video from one of the annual conferences that featured some high-level officials presenting their conclusion that the incident was caused by a rocket malfunctioning, flying over the area, and dripping NO2, a poisonous gas. This poisoned the hikers, as evidenced by the gray foam on at least one of their mouths. I can't find this video right now, but I think it's under Materials Modern (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?board=35.0). They presented a lot of impressive evidence.
I guess you mean Vadim Skibinsky's theory that R-12 mid-range missile was launched from Polyarny site, north to Dyatlov Pass. Vadim belives that due to some technical issue the missile lost its fuel, but kept oxydizer - NO2. Good idea, but I think it is wrong. It is capital that UFO landed on the slope, not passed by.
Please have a look at the photo taken by Lev Ivanov in May 1959, when he came to DP for the 3rd time to look at the last 4 hiker's bodies found in the ravine. In May snow started to thaw and very interesting pattern was revealed on the slope. It resembles a river, which is narrow at the beginning and gets wide at the end. The river repeates the way, which hikers followed when relocated downhill.
(https://i.ibb.co/60NqGQjj/1079.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Then there is Slobodin, who had everything he needed to write a note, but he didn't. Nor did anyone else borrow his writing utensils and take notes.
Suri, I think you might be mistaking Slobodin for Zolotaryev, who (it is often said) was found with a notebook and a pencil. Slobodin was not, to my knowledge, found with a notebook or a writing utensil.
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Then there is Slobodin, who had everything he needed to write a note, but he didn't. Nor did anyone else borrow his writing utensils and take notes.
Suri, I think you might be mistaking Slobodin for Zolotaryev, who (it is often said) was found with a notebook and a pencil. Slobodin was not, to my knowledge, found with a notebook or a writing utensil.
Slobodin was found with a pencil and pen, and he also had a letter with him. Theoretically, he could write, but practically, he couldn't.
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Quoting in the original language:
На трупе Слободина Р. одето: свитр черный х/бумажный, под ним ковбойка. Между свитром и ковбойкой лежат 2 войлочные стельки, в кармане ковбойки авторучка, паспорт на имя Слободина, деньги 310 рублей (100, 50х4 и 10 руб), носки под ковбойкой серая трикотажная с начесом рубашка, а под ней майка. Брюки лыжные, под ними синие тренировочные брюки, теплые кальсоны (пара рубашке), сатиновые трусы, в лыжных брюках перочинный нож, расческа и карандаш.
I've highlighted in bold what you could write with and what you could write on—a fountain pen, a pencil, a passport, and paper money.
Moreover, a pencil allowed you to write even in freezing temperatures.
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Senior Maldonado, a couple years ago on this site there was a video from one of the annual conferences that featured some high-level officials presenting their conclusion that the incident was caused by a rocket malfunctioning, flying over the area, and dripping NO2, a poisonous gas. This poisoned the hikers, as evidenced by the gray foam on at least one of their mouths. I can't find this video right now, but I think it's under Materials Modern (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?board=35.0). They presented a lot of impressive evidence.
I guess you mean Vadim Skibinsky's theory that R-12 mid-range missile was launched from Polyarny site, north to Dyatlov Pass. Vadim belives that due to some technical issue the missile lost its fuel, but kept oxydizer - NO2. Good idea, but I think it is wrong. It is capital that UFO landed on the slope, not passed by.
Please have a look at the photo taken by Lev Ivanov in May 1959, when he came to DP for the 3rd time to look at the last 4 hiker's bodies found in the ravine. In May snow started to thaw and very interesting pattern was revealed on the slope. It resembles a river, which is narrow at the beginning and gets wide at the end. The river repeates the way, which hikers followed when relocated downhill.
(https://i.ibb.co/60NqGQjj/1079.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
This is again natural thawing of the winter snow. Where the snow remains is where it is at deepest. What we see is where the wind blows away the snow during winter and does not lie , which will be thinner snow levels . Come the spring which occurs before the Month of May , the thaw causes running melt water . One must look at the topography of the area and understand the process of nature . I am pretty sure if a photo was taken in May every year from the location of the photo you submitted, we would get the exact same ( give or take) erosion of the snow through a spring thaw.
The hikers basically walked down the natural ravine/ gully of the natural landscape . The ravine is the start of the the river where natural erosion occurs , this natural erosion is what causes the ravine and exposed rocks on the hillside. When a thaw occurs the sun aids the melting of the thinner depth of snow and , in parallel the whole slope thaws , the melt water from the the slope of the collective mountain side aids the dispersion of the snow .
In basic simple terms , what your picture shows is natural thawing of snow due to how nature works . Not a ray gun or any other nonsense. Your argument might have sense if the slope looked like that in February, but it didn't.
If you look at Google earth maps you will see this. In fact you can Google dyatlov pass , go into maps and see a number of photos by people that have been there . Oddly enough there is even a photo of a snow bridge in the upper ravine . When I say upper ravine , I do not mean where the ravine 4 were found , it is the ravine where Igor , zina Rustem were found.
To be honest, I can't even believe I have to explain how snow melts on a hill side to counter argue against an overwhelming force and a tabloid article about UFO's / fire balls/ heat rays. Let alone explain tree windburn and what a treeline is.
Yes ,by all means argue some air blast,but don't rewrite how nature works.
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by all means argue some air blast,but don't rewrite how nature works.
Congratulations! You have come to the same conclusion as Central Committee of Communist Party of the Soviet Union -- the Dyatlov group died because of natural calamity and lack of experience. Having such strong player at your side as Communist Party, you should be proud and confident in the result, should not you? wink1
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Yes, a completely natural photo that is not even worth commenting on. Whether the trees were burned or not, it had no effect on the deaths of the hikers. It is better to focus on more essential things that are being overlooked.
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by all means argue some air blast,but don't rewrite how nature works.
Congratulations! You have come to the same conclusion as Central Committee of Communist Party of the Soviet Union -- the Dyatlov group died because of natural calamity and lack of experience. Having such strong player at your side as Communist Party, you should be proud and confident in the result, should not you? wink1
We should not be avoiding nature in our search and stereotyping the Communist party doesn't bring much to the table . Why you bring the communist party in to it I will never know. Ivanov called the hikers amateurs, ivanov also said it was a UFO or ray gun not an explosion , so we are stuck with wind burn again and your trees that you highlight in the "north" will be exposed to the sun.
So back to your photo, what does the pattern on the slope tell us ? Are you agreeing with ivanov it was a UFO and some sort of ray gun or are you saying it was an explosion ?
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We should not be avoiding nature in our search and stereotyping the Communist party doesn't bring much to the table . Why you bring the communist party in to it I will never know.
The point is that DPI attracted attention of Mr.Kruschev, who was the 1st secretary of the Communist party at that time. You know that Ivanov closed the criminal file on May 28th declaring that the hikers faced "elemental force, which they did not manage to overcome". And shortly after that, on May 30th, Mr.Drozdov, member of Central Committee, provided a report to the Central Committee on DPI, which said that the hikers left the tent due to natural calamity and were killed by "big hurricane". So everybody, who says that the Dyatlov group died because of natural causes, is in line with what was reported to (and accepted by) the Communist party of the Soviet Union. You may read more about it here, and I hope you can use Google translator to help your reading:
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26487/3356767
Ivanov called the hikers amateurs, ivanov also said it was a UFO or ray gun not an explosion , so we are stuck with wind burn again and your trees that you highlight in the "north" will be exposed to the sun.
Not exactly.
First of all, Lev Ivanov was a good Prosecutor's Office investigator. It cannot be that he failed to see traces of avalanche in 1959 and later, in 1990, mixed in his newspaper's article apologies to hikers' relatives, blames of the authorities that they told lies about DPI, and promotion of science fiction. We should take as a starting point his statement that the hikers died because of some flying object, which made them to leave the tent. Ivanov calls it UFO and suggests to resume investigation to identify the UFO's origin.
Why do you say that Ivanov did not talk about explosion? Explosion is a core of his theory. From his interview to Stanislav Bogomolov:
Ivanov: Then I assumed it, and now I am sure. I can’t pretend to say what kind of balls they are — whether they are weapons, aliens or something else, but I’m sure that this is directly related to the deaths of the hikers.
Bogomolov: But how do you imagine it? The pilots, geologists who traveled and flew these lands, they all say that there are no signs of an explosion near Otorten and the surrounding area.
Ivanov: It wasn't in the usual sense an explosion of a shell or a bomb. It was different, as if a balloon had burst. The fact, that at the edge of the forest, where the hikers so hastily ran away from the tent, the tree branches were as if singed. Not burnt, not broken, but singed.
Are you agreeing with ivanov it was a UFO and some sort of ray gun or are you saying it was an explosion ?
I completly dismiss UFO, pointed heat rays, and austroauts chasing the hikers. Yes, it was an explosion of rocket's fuel mixed with air and dragged by wind downhill. And air wave from explosion was the force, which threw the 4 hikers to the bottom of the ravine.
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Something that puzzles me .... we have nine experienced, skilled, strong hikers, including one who had gone through World War II, and yet it is repeatedly suggested that one or more of them stepped into the wrong area of snow and fell into a ravine. I'm pretty sure they knew they were near the water, so wouldn't they naturally be on the alert for this kind of danger? There are indications in the shape and pattern of the snow when water is underneath. Is it really likely that one -- or four -- of these skilled and experienced hikers simply fell through some snow into a rocky ravine?
I wouldn't say that it was repeatedly suggested. But they were experienced. Also, some of the descriptions of the ravine suggest that it was some kind of formidable obstacle. It wasn't much of a ravine, more of a gulley, a fairly gentle gulley.
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Yes, but they knew the ravine was there, and all of their cumulative skills and experience, not to mention the extra advantage of a WW II veteran, should make falling through the snow into the ravine an unlikely occurrence. It is more of a rookie mistake.
My brother and I spent much of our childhood exploring the snowy, frozen creeks of northern Minnesota and we learned to recognize depressions in the snow, softening melty snow, trickling sounds, and other signs indicating that we were close to a ravine. I get what you're saying, Ziljoe, but I still think falling through the snow into the ravine they knew was there, is unlikely.
Senior Maldonado suggests that they didn't fall through the snow, but some force smacked them against the rocks in the ravine. Now I'm wondering about that. What force might be able to do that?
An unknown compelling force, maybe. The same force that was responsible for driving them from their tent, maybe.
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I favour a collapse of snow from above but that has its holes too.
I am waiting for Senior Maldonado with mild anticipation too.
Even big mass of snow could not be resposible for the Ravine 4 injuries. I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave. Wave's front acts as a big hummer, it strikes, throws people to the ground. Front is immediately followed by zone of very high pressure. And in our case that high-pressure airflow acted as a press. It pushed the hikers into creek's rocks and fractured their bones. The wave acted from up to down and from slope to the forest (=ravine). Slope->Forest component of the force overturned people to the ground, while Up->Down component pressed their bodies into rocks. I do not believe anybody was able to move after that. And then timer started what would come first -- death from injuries or death from hypothermia.
And what kind of explosive air wave could that be? And was it following them from the tent to Cedar tree to ravine or gulley, as I prefer to call it?
Please, do not throw stones at me, it's how I see that sad episode...
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Lev Ivanov: " .... When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov * * we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter. This once again confirmed a source of heat ray or completely unknown to us energy acting selectively - the snow was not melted, the trees were not damaged."
He is saying that there was no pattern. The damaged trees seemed randomly selected or targeted almost as if on purpose.
If an unknown force is at play, then it can be expected that randomness may occur. For instance, if you shoot a gun, then bullets may hit or miss the intended target and hit something else.
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Could you give a diagram of the trees he was referring to as I get mixed up.
Sure. Here you are. The ravine, where the 4 bodies were found, was located right in front of the forest -- its tree line. And Lev Ivanov spoke about young trees that had been lightly burned with no obvious pattern and had been somewhere at the tree line. Unfortunately, Mr.Ivanov has not provided more precise location of the young trees.
(https://i.ibb.co/GffTrYXN/Ravine-and-tree-line.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cKKLsfPV)
From such photos you can see why the use of the word Ravine can be misleading. It looks like a gentle Gulley. But an ideal spot for snow to accumulate.
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If dead hikers were actually found on the slope, it cannot be fantasy, but reality. After a direct hit from an unknown (known) force, these 3 hikers did not make it any further.
Zina, Rustem, and Igor were found on a single line, which went from the Cedar tree uphill, probably straight to the tent. The search team mentioned that those hikers laid on the ground in "dynamic poses", as though they died very quickly (got frozen on march?). This allows to put forward a theory that all 3 of them attempted to go back to the tent but managed to cover just part of distance, which is weird as all three were strong and trained.
This further allows to develop the theory that something killed them very quickly, as soon as they crossed invisible border. It could be that when UFO (Ivanov calls it this way) landed close to the tent, and its hard landing collapsed northen part of the tent, the tent's site got into affected zone. On levaing the tent, hikers somehow evaluated size of the affected zone and moved out of it, eventually coming to the Cedar tree. When it became critical to fetch missing clothes, equipment, medicine, Zina, Rustem, and Igor tried to go back in turn. But they did not take into account that the affected zone kept expanding in direction to the ravine/Cedar. As soon as a hiker reached front of approaching affected zone, he/she died very quickly. Finally, affected zone reached the ravine, and that was end of the story.
Affected zone is an interesting way of putting it. Presumably, you are referring to an unknown force. The force is at the tent, then the Cedar tree, then the ravine/gulley. And maybe also on the slope when some try to get back to the tent, unless they succumbed to the weather.
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by all means argue some air blast,but don't rewrite how nature works.
Congratulations! You have come to the same conclusion as Central Committee of Communist Party of the Soviet Union -- the Dyatlov group died because of natural calamity and lack of experience. Having such strong player at your side as Communist Party, you should be proud and confident in the result, should not you? wink1
I think the official line that was given out from the powers that be was that it was due to an unknown compelling force. Which could mean anything really including a paranormal event.
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We should not be avoiding nature in our search and stereotyping the Communist party doesn't bring much to the table . Why you bring the communist party in to it I will never know.
The point is that DPI attracted attention of Mr.Kruschev, who was the 1st secretary of the Communist party at that time. You know that Ivanov closed the criminal file on May 28th declaring that the hikers faced "elemental force, which they did not manage to overcome". And shortly after that, on May 30th, Mr.Drozdov, member of Central Committee, provided a report to the Central Committee on DPI, which said that the hikers left the tent due to natural calamity and were killed by "big hurricane". So everybody, who says that the Dyatlov group died because of natural causes, is in line with what was reported to (and accepted by) the Communist party of the Soviet Union. You may read more about it here, and I hope you can use Google translator to help your reading:
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26487/3356767
Ivanov called the hikers amateurs, ivanov also said it was a UFO or ray gun not an explosion , so we are stuck with wind burn again and your trees that you highlight in the "north" will be exposed to the sun.
Not exactly.
First of all, Lev Ivanov was a good Prosecutor's Office investigator. It cannot be that he failed to see traces of avalanche in 1959 and later, in 1990, mixed in his newspaper's article apologies to hikers' relatives, blames of the authorities that they told lies about DPI, and promotion of science fiction. We should take as a starting point his statement that the hikers died because of some flying object, which made them to leave the tent. Ivanov calls it UFO and suggests to resume investigation to identify the UFO's origin.
Why do you say that Ivanov did not talk about explosion? Explosion is a core of his theory. From his interview to Stanislav Bogomolov:
Ivanov: Then I assumed it, and now I am sure. I can’t pretend to say what kind of balls they are — whether they are weapons, aliens or something else, but I’m sure that this is directly related to the deaths of the hikers.
Bogomolov: But how do you imagine it? The pilots, geologists who traveled and flew these lands, they all say that there are no signs of an explosion near Otorten and the surrounding area.
Ivanov: It wasn't in the usual sense an explosion of a shell or a bomb. It was different, as if a balloon had burst. The fact, that at the edge of the forest, where the hikers so hastily ran away from the tent, the tree branches were as if singed. Not burnt, not broken, but singed.
Are you agreeing with ivanov it was a UFO and some sort of ray gun or are you saying it was an explosion ?
I completly dismiss UFO, pointed heat rays, and austroauts chasing the hikers. Yes, it was an explosion of rocket's fuel mixed with air and dragged by wind downhill. And air wave from explosion was the force, which threw the 4 hikers to the bottom of the ravine.
See below.
''On May 30, 1959, the deputy head of the department of administrative and trade-financial bodies of the Central Committee of the CPSU for the RSFSR, Drozdov, wrote a report to higher authorities (perhaps to Khrushchev himself?) about what happened to the Dyatlov group.''
"The death was the result of a natural disaster. The immediate cause of the group's death was a major hurricane."
Only a deputy head of a department. And one concerning admin and trade-finance! And not even knowing if it was going to Khrushchev!
In fact, Khrushchev was very interested in the Dyatlov Mystery in later years.
If it were a cut-and-dry job, such as a weather event as suggested, why was the Leader of the USSR still interested in the Dyatlov Mystery?
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I think the official line that was given out from the powers that be was that it was due to an unknown compelling force. Which could mean anything really including a paranormal event.
It is worth mentioning that the real political power in the Soviet Union at that time was Communist Party represented by it's Central Committee. Regarding our case, not only Prosecutor's office ran investigation in 1959, but also special commission of Obcom - Sverdlovsk's branch of Communist Party. While Ivanov stated that the hikers were hit by unknown compelling force, the commission was more precise. The commission stated that the hikers were killed by 'big hurricane'. And the commission's report was delived to Central Committee, and all Central Committee's secretaries (top ranking people) put their signatures that they understood and accepted the report.
In 2019 Prosecutor's office initiated new investigation, which brought very interesting results. The new investigator declared two avalanches, one on the slope, another - in the ravine. Shortly after that he was fired. )
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Only a deputy head of a department. And one concerning admin and trade-finance! And not even knowing if it was going to Khrushchev!
Do you think it is easy like that? No way!
The word "admin" means that this department of Central Committee performed supervision of Ministry of Internal Affairs, KGB, Prosecutor's office. All these bodies were instruments of the Communist Party, which was the real power in the Soviet Union. Please, do not underestimate influence of this department!
And do you know why the report was delivered by deputy head? The head, Mr.Kidin, was kicked from his position on April 10th, 1959. What is interesting, exactly the same day Central Committee received investigation report from Sverdlovski Obcom -- the hikers were hit by hurricane...
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I think the official line that was given out from the powers that be was that it was due to an unknown compelling force. Which could mean anything really including a paranormal event.
It is worth mentioning that the real political power in the Soviet Union at that time was Communist Party represented by it's Central Committee. Regarding our case, not only Prosecutor's office ran investigation in 1959, but also special commission of Obcom - Sverdlovsk's branch of Communist Party. While Ivanov stated that the hikers were hit by unknown compelling force, the commission was more precise. The commission stated that the hikers were killed by 'big hurricane'. And the commission's report was delived to Central Committee, and all Central Committee's secretaries (top ranking people) put their signatures that they understood and accepted the report.
In 2019 Prosecutor's office initiated new investigation, which brought very interesting results. The new investigator declared two avalanches, one on the slope, another - in the ravine. Shortly after that he was fired. )
Well, of course, if the authorities wanted to cover something up, then they would make up a convenient story. A severe weather event would be nice and convenient.
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Only a deputy head of a department. And one concerning admin and trade-finance! And not even knowing if it was going to Khrushchev!
Do you think it is easy like that? No way!
The word "admin" means that this department of Central Committee performed supervision of Ministry of Internal Affairs, KGB, Prosecutor's office. All these bodies were instruments of the Communist Party, which was the real power in the Soviet Union. Please, do not underestimate influence of this department!
And do you know why the report was delivered by deputy head? The head, Mr.Kidin, was kicked from his position on April 10th, 1959. What is interesting, exactly the same day Central Committee received investigation report from Sverdlovski Obcom -- the hikers were hit by hurricane...
Sounds very convenient to have an extreme weather event to blame for the Dyatlov Group's demise. Not to say that the weather did not play its part. But there are too many questions that don't fit with the weather event as the reason for the sequence of events under the umbrella of the event which took place at the tent.
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Sounds very convenient to have an extreme weather event to blame for the Dyatlov Group's demise. Not to say that the weather did not play its part. But there are too many questions that don't fit with the weather event as the reason for the sequence of events under the umbrella of the event which took place at the tent.
Yes, interesting things were happening at the tent. There was no rush, the tent was not collapsed, there was time to take pictures, the most important thing was to take pictures of what was needed and not only at the tent.
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We should not be avoiding nature in our search and stereotyping the Communist party doesn't bring much to the table . Why you bring the communist party in to it I will never know.
The point is that DPI attracted attention of Mr.Kruschev, who was the 1st secretary of the Communist party at that time. You know that Ivanov closed the criminal file on May 28th declaring that the hikers faced "elemental force, which they did not manage to overcome". And shortly after that, on May 30th, Mr.Drozdov, member of Central Committee, provided a report to the Central Committee on DPI, which said that the hikers left the tent due to natural calamity and were killed by "big hurricane". So everybody, who says that the Dyatlov group died because of natural causes, is in line with what was reported to (and accepted by) the Communist party of the Soviet Union. You may read more about it here, and I hope you can use Google translator to help your reading:
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26487/3356767
How much Kruschev and those surrounding him were involved is open for debate . It is not so much that the DPI attracted his attention but more the fact that the Kremlin were informed of the incident by family members of the missing hikers . The families,having reported the delayed return were getting ignored by those that should take action. It was the family members that escalated it.
This is a standered process in any country when an organisation or institution fails in its duties to its citizens. You then by pass that government department and go above. If nothing else , it is to embarrass the institution in to taking the action you want. In this case , it's to get the UPI to get it's finger out of it's butt and pull all the resources it can to find the missing hikers ....
Disregarding the reason as to why the hiker's left the tent , we can instantly see the failure of the UPi or sports committee. Within that context the case is now high profile, we have a failure of systems , trust and solidarity to the public and it's youth.
The families and friends of the hikers are disgusted/frustrated by the lack of care and quite possibly the Kremlin feels the same ?.
From this initial contact to the Kremlin, the Kremlin now have to show that they are invested to find the missing students and that the government will look after its people.
As I understand it and from what I've now read , this is the context of how the Kremlin came to be involved .
Ivanov called the hikers amateurs, ivanov also said it was a UFO or ray gun not an explosion , so we are stuck with wind burn again and your trees that you highlight in the "north" will be exposed to the sun.
Not exactly.
First of all, Lev Ivanov was a good Prosecutor's Office investigator. It cannot be that he failed to see traces of avalanche in 1959 and later, in 1990, mixed in his newspaper's article apologies to hikers' relatives, blames of the authorities that they told lies about DPI, and promotion of science fiction. We should take as a starting point his statement that the hikers died because of some flying object, which made them to leave the tent. Ivanov calls it UFO and suggests to resume investigation to identify the UFO's origin.
Why do you say that Ivanov did not talk about explosion? Explosion is a core of his theory. From his interview to Stanislav Bogomolov:
Ivanov: Then I assumed it, and now I am sure. I can’t pretend to say what kind of balls they are — whether they are weapons, aliens or something else, but I’m sure that this is directly related to the deaths of the hikers.
Bogomolov: But how do you imagine it? The pilots, geologists who traveled and flew these lands, they all say that there are no signs of an explosion near Otorten and the surrounding area.
Ivanov: It wasn't in the usual sense an explosion of a shell or a bomb. It was different, as if a balloon had burst. The fact, that at the edge of the forest, where the hikers so hastily ran away from the tent, the tree branches were as if singed. Not burnt, not broken, but singed.
You say not exactly but exactly what you are referring to?.
Ivano said many things and many people have said he said things , including his later interviews and his alleged findings . On one hand you say he was thorough and a great investigator but you seem to contradict that by saying he got things wrong but you know what happened? I'm not trying to have a go , I just want details and I'm cautious of quotes being cherry picked to create a narrative .
It is reported that on his return when the ravine 4 were found , ivanov was not interested. He was allegedly standing about and not participating in a manor expected by an investigator. At this point in May , he has no reason to expect an explosion at that moment in time and doesn't do any investigation regarding an explosion. All this comes later. (I'll , need to find the quote of where he eliminates an explosion.)
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On one hand you say he was thorough and a great investigator but you seem to contradict that by saying he got things wrong but you know what happened? I'm not trying to have a go , I just want details and I'm cautious of quotes being cherry picked to create a narrative.
It's not me, who says that Ivanov was efficient and thorough investigator. Saying that I repeat what his boss, Evgeni Okishev, says:
Question: How long had Ivanov worked as a criminal prosecutor?
E.Okishev: Since early 1954, from the moment this position was created.
Question: Was he a good investigator?
E.Okishev: I reckon, excellent. Meticulous and very thorough.
The full text can be found here: https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2014?rbid=18461
And I just try to be pragmatic. Who knows better what type of professional Ivanov was than his boss?
Btw, I strongly suggest you reading both Mr.Okishev's interviews. The one mentioned above and also: https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2013-ru .
I'll , need to find the quote of where he eliminates an explosion.
Please do that. I am interested to see the quote, as I obviously overlooked it. My understanding is that Ivanov started to suspect an explosion, when he saw burned young trees near the ravine early in May. He got more grounds to suspect an explosion, when Vozrozhdenny mentioned explosive air wave talking to Ivanov on May 28th. But exactly that day Ivanov closed the case...
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Great amount of comments it's difficult to keep track of them all.
From my perspective and to give some context over the last few posts.
The tent
As hunter and Teddy have said , it wasn't being stored for any importance. That goes for all the hikers equipment, it was given back to the families and UPI. The food from the labaz was given to the searchers to eat . Nothing was kept for any secret reason and nothing was stopped from being returned to the rightful owners. The tent was a ripped up pile of old canvas , if it was anything more it would have been written in the case files .
The Kremlin
They got mentioned because the family wrote to them . It is not the other way round. There is no mention of Khrushchev being interested.
The CPSU, KGB , secrecy and reports.
They were involved in many reports and investigations of all sorts of accidents and incidents in the Soviet Union. The list is huge and covers many years. The majority of these accidents seem to be filed away and to some level or other the documents were kept "secret" ,if that is even the correct word. These accidents involved everything from , nuclear leaks , floods, numerous railway crashes , fires in factories , schools , cinemas, , explosions, explosions , buses , gases, car, airplanes, missile silos , hikers ( at least 4 similar to the dyatliv pass) , young hikers , mass drownings , alcohol abuse in many instances of the above. Prisoners, jail's , a day when the the sun disappeared. You name it and it's happened, in many cases the death toll has been in the hundreds.
Unknown compelling force
This phrase has been talked about too many times. In the reports to the above accidents , when they don't have the answer to why something happened, for example how a fire started or why a plane component failed , they write" unknown ". But here's the twist , when they do know what happened, they write that as well . This includes cigarettes in a missile silo , drinking whilst operating equipment,incompetence to protect schools or acts of terrorism , two pilots having a bet that a plane could be landed on only reading the instruments and not looking out the window. Whoever messes up gets consequences.
You name it , it's documented , the point being , having read a few of them now , if there was a secret, for example ;escaped prisoners , radiation, failed military test , crashed planes or rockets etc. They will have written it in the case files and not hid any secret for the long-term.
So , unknown compelling force means what it says and the interpretation might sound better or be more similar to "unknown overwhelming circumstances" . It is not a lie to write unknown, they might just be telling the truth ?
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Quote from Senior Maldonado: "..... My understanding is that Ivanov started to suspect an explosion, when he saw burned young trees near the ravine early in May. He got more grounds to suspect an explosion, when Vozrozhdenny mentioned explosive air wave talking to Ivanov on May 28th."
It is my understanding that Ivanov became gradually just like us, confused and frustrated with evidence that contradicts other evidence, no leads, information that led nowhere .... and after trying to figure it out for so long, he finally wrote, regarding possible origins of the tragedy: "There is nothing left but the sky and its contents."
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On one hand you say he was thorough and a great investigator but you seem to contradict that by saying he got things wrong but you know what happened? I'm not trying to have a go , I just want details and I'm cautious of quotes being cherry picked to create a narrative.
It's not me, who says that Ivanov was efficient and thorough investigator. Saying that I repeat what his boss, Evgeni Okishev, says:
Question: How long had Ivanov worked as a criminal prosecutor?
E.Okishev: Since early 1954, from the moment this position was created.
Question: Was he a good investigator?
E.Okishev: I reckon, excellent. Meticulous and very thorough.
The full text can be found here: https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2014?rbid=18461
And I just try to be pragmatic. Who knows better what type of professional Ivanov was than his boss?
Btw, I strongly suggest you reading both Mr.Okishev's interviews. The one mentioned above and also: https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2013-ru .
I'll , need to find the quote of where he eliminates an explosion.
Please do that. I am interested to see the quote, as I obviously overlooked it. My understanding is that Ivanov started to suspect an explosion, when he saw burned young trees near the ravine early in May. He got more grounds to suspect an explosion, when Vozrozhdenny mentioned explosive air wave talking to Ivanov on May 28th. But exactly that day Ivanov closed the case...
Thank you, I have read them before although I will need to do it again. I have dismissed anything ivanov says other than the original case files. Ivanov gets pulled apart by others and on other forums. Ivanov's chronology of events seems to trip him up. There is a big difference to think something looked burnt and is burnt. It's why wind or winter burn is called this. Also Ivanov wouldn't have known about the broken ribs until after the autopsy , not when he was at the ravine. Anyway, I suspect you may have other evidence, so please continue.
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There is a big difference to think something looked burnt and is burnt. It's why wind or winter burn is called this. Also Ivanov wouldn't have known about the broken ribs until after the autopsy , not when he was at the ravine.
Not only Ivanov, nobody knew about broken ribs and cracked skull until the autopsy. In my eyes it plays in favor of explosion, since Ivanov started to look for an epicenter, melted snow, abd broken trees even not knowing about the injuries of the Ravine 4. Just observing the surrounding territory he started to suspect an explosion. You say the trees were wind or winter burnt. How do you know that? Do you see appropriate lab test in the original case files? It's your word against Ivanov's word, but Ivanov has an advantage, he was on the spot in 1959. And it is very important to note, Ivanov stressed that the trees were singed, not burnt. Yes, there are different types of burns: fire burns, frost burns, wind burns, etc. But 'singed' means lightly touched by fire. So, Ivanov meant fire, and that's why he started to look for explosion's traces.
When you say that Ivanov might had confused fire burnt trees with wind or winter burnt trees, you basically say that Ivanov was not competent. despite his boss says he was an excellent investigator. OK, at least, we cannot say that Ivanov lacked good intuition. The Ravine 4 were found in clear water of mountain creek -- part of untouched nature. However, Ivanov initiated radiation lab test, and (oh, gosh!) the test showed that the clothing was contaminated. Maybe, when looking for epicenter, he was led by his good intuition as well?
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We should not be avoiding nature in our search and stereotyping the Communist party doesn't bring much to the table . Why you bring the communist party in to it I will never know.
The point is that DPI attracted attention of Mr.Kruschev, who was the 1st secretary of the Communist party at that time. You know that Ivanov closed the criminal file on May 28th declaring that the hikers faced "elemental force, which they did not manage to overcome". And shortly after that, on May 30th, Mr.Drozdov, member of Central Committee, provided a report to the Central Committee on DPI, which said that the hikers left the tent due to natural calamity and were killed by "big hurricane". So everybody, who says that the Dyatlov group died because of natural causes, is in line with what was reported to (and accepted by) the Communist party of the Soviet Union. You may read more about it here, and I hope you can use Google translator to help your reading:
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26487/3356767
How much Kruschev and those surrounding him were involved is open for debate . It is not so much that the DPI attracted his attention but more the fact that the Kremlin were informed of the incident by family members of the missing hikers . The families,having reported the delayed return were getting ignored by those that should take action. It was the family members that escalated it.
This is a standered process in any country when an organisation or institution fails in its duties to its citizens. You then by pass that government department and go above. If nothing else , it is to embarrass the institution in to taking the action you want. In this case , it's to get the UPI to get it's finger out of it's butt and pull all the resources it can to find the missing hikers ....
Disregarding the reason as to why the hiker's left the tent , we can instantly see the failure of the UPi or sports committee. Within that context the case is now high profile, we have a failure of systems , trust and solidarity to the public and it's youth.
The families and friends of the hikers are disgusted/frustrated by the lack of care and quite possibly the Kremlin feels the same ?.
From this initial contact to the Kremlin, the Kremlin now have to show that they are invested to find the missing students and that the government will look after its people.
As I understand it and from what I've now read , this is the context of how the Kremlin came to be involved .
It does appear that the authorities believed that the Dyatlov Group had met their demise due to an extreme weather event. Although we also have it that the report stated an Unknown Compelling Force. So was the idea that that force was some kind of weather event? The initial search parties were just looking for the group, expecting to find them alive, presumably. It gets interesting after the first bodies are found. It gets even more interesting after the bodies at the ravine are found.
Ivanov called the hikers amateurs, ivanov also said it was a UFO or ray gun not an explosion , so we are stuck with wind burn again and your trees that you highlight in the "north" will be exposed to the sun.
Not exactly.
First of all, Lev Ivanov was a good Prosecutor's Office investigator. It cannot be that he failed to see traces of avalanche in 1959 and later, in 1990, mixed in his newspaper's article apologies to hikers' relatives, blames of the authorities that they told lies about DPI, and promotion of science fiction. We should take as a starting point his statement that the hikers died because of some flying object, which made them to leave the tent. Ivanov calls it UFO and suggests to resume investigation to identify the UFO's origin.
Why do you say that Ivanov did not talk about explosion? Explosion is a core of his theory. From his interview to Stanislav Bogomolov:
Ivanov: Then I assumed it, and now I am sure. I can’t pretend to say what kind of balls they are — whether they are weapons, aliens or something else, but I’m sure that this is directly related to the deaths of the hikers.
Bogomolov: But how do you imagine it? The pilots, geologists who traveled and flew these lands, they all say that there are no signs of an explosion near Otorten and the surrounding area.
Ivanov: It wasn't in the usual sense an explosion of a shell or a bomb. It was different, as if a balloon had burst. The fact, that at the edge of the forest, where the hikers so hastily ran away from the tent, the tree branches were as if singed. Not burnt, not broken, but singed.
You say not exactly but exactly what you are referring to?.
Ivano said many things and many people have said he said things , including his later interviews and his alleged findings . On one hand you say he was thorough and a great investigator but you seem to contradict that by saying he got things wrong but you know what happened? I'm not trying to have a go , I just want details and I'm cautious of quotes being cherry picked to create a narrative .
It is reported that on his return when the ravine 4 were found , ivanov was not interested. He was allegedly standing about and not participating in a manor expected by an investigator. At this point in May , he has no reason to expect an explosion at that moment in time and doesn't do any investigation regarding an explosion. All this comes later. (I'll , need to find the quote of where he eliminates an explosion.)
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Did the authorities believe that the Dyatlov Group had met their demise due to an extreme weather event. Although we also have it that the report stated an Unknown Compelling Force. So was the idea that that force was some kind of weather event? The initial search parties were just looking for the group, expecting to find them alive, presumably. It gets interesting after the first bodies are found. It gets even more interesting after the bodies at the ravine are found.
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Sarapuk, the closure order referred to an "act of God," meaning a natural force. Roughly speaking, it would be like if a person died in a hurricane or tornado.
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We should not be avoiding nature in our search and stereotyping the Communist party doesn't bring much to the table . Why you bring the communist party in to it I will never know.
The point is that DPI attracted attention of Mr.Kruschev, who was the 1st secretary of the Communist party at that time. You know that Ivanov closed the criminal file on May 28th declaring that the hikers faced "elemental force, which they did not manage to overcome". And shortly after that, on May 30th, Mr.Drozdov, member of Central Committee, provided a report to the Central Committee on DPI, which said that the hikers left the tent due to natural calamity and were killed by "big hurricane". So everybody, who says that the Dyatlov group died because of natural causes, is in line with what was reported to (and accepted by) the Communist party of the Soviet Union. You may read more about it here, and I hope you can use Google translator to help your reading:
https://www.kp.ru/daily/26487/3356767
How much Kruschev and those surrounding him were involved is open for debate . It is not so much that the DPI attracted his attention but more the fact that the Kremlin were informed of the incident by family members of the missing hikers . The families,having reported the delayed return were getting ignored by those that should take action. It was the family members that escalated it.
This is a standered process in any country when an organisation or institution fails in its duties to its citizens. You then by pass that government department and go above. If nothing else , it is to embarrass the institution in to taking the action you want. In this case , it's to get the UPI to get it's finger out of it's butt and pull all the resources it can to find the missing hikers ....
Disregarding the reason as to why the hiker's left the tent , we can instantly see the failure of the UPi or sports committee. Within that context the case is now high profile, we have a failure of systems , trust and solidarity to the public and it's youth.
The families and friends of the hikers are disgusted/frustrated by the lack of care and quite possibly the Kremlin feels the same ?.
From this initial contact to the Kremlin, the Kremlin now have to show that they are invested to find the missing students and that the government will look after its people.
As I understand it and from what I've now read , this is the context of how the Kremlin came to be involved .
It does appear that the authorities believed that the Dyatlov Group had met their demise due to an extreme weather event. Although we also have it that the report stated an Unknown Compelling Force. So was the idea that that force was some kind of weather event? The initial search parties were just looking for the group, expecting to find them alive, presumably. It gets interesting after the first bodies are found. It gets even more interesting after the bodies at the ravine are found.
Ivanov called the hikers amateurs, ivanov also said it was a UFO or ray gun not an explosion , so we are stuck with wind burn again and your trees that you highlight in the "north" will be exposed to the sun.
Not exactly.
First of all, Lev Ivanov was a good Prosecutor's Office investigator. It cannot be that he failed to see traces of avalanche in 1959 and later, in 1990, mixed in his newspaper's article apologies to hikers' relatives, blames of the authorities that they told lies about DPI, and promotion of science fiction. We should take as a starting point his statement that the hikers died because of some flying object, which made them to leave the tent. Ivanov calls it UFO and suggests to resume investigation to identify the UFO's origin.
Why do you say that Ivanov did not talk about explosion? Explosion is a core of his theory. From his interview to Stanislav Bogomolov:
Ivanov: Then I assumed it, and now I am sure. I can’t pretend to say what kind of balls they are — whether they are weapons, aliens or something else, but I’m sure that this is directly related to the deaths of the hikers.
Bogomolov: But how do you imagine it? The pilots, geologists who traveled and flew these lands, they all say that there are no signs of an explosion near Otorten and the surrounding area.
Ivanov: It wasn't in the usual sense an explosion of a shell or a bomb. It was different, as if a balloon had burst. The fact, that at the edge of the forest, where the hikers so hastily ran away from the tent, the tree branches were as if singed. Not burnt, not broken, but singed.
You say not exactly but exactly what you are referring to?.
Ivano said many things and many people have said he said things , including his later interviews and his alleged findings . On one hand you say he was thorough and a great investigator but you seem to contradict that by saying he got things wrong but you know what happened? I'm not trying to have a go , I just want details and I'm cautious of quotes being cherry picked to create a narrative .
It is reported that on his return when the ravine 4 were found , ivanov was not interested. He was allegedly standing about and not participating in a manor expected by an investigator. At this point in May , he has no reason to expect an explosion at that moment in time and doesn't do any investigation regarding an explosion. All this comes later. (I'll , need to find the quote of where he eliminates an explosion.)
@, sarapuk, sorry , could you please edit this so it shows your opinion clearly. You have added your comment on to mine and it makes it unreadable. I know it's a bit fiddly to do. Thanks.
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There is a big difference to think something looked burnt and is burnt. It's why wind or winter burn is called this. Also Ivanov wouldn't have known about the broken ribs until after the autopsy , not when he was at the ravine.
Not only Ivanov, nobody knew about broken ribs and cracked skull until the autopsy. In my eyes it plays in favor of explosion, since Ivanov started to look for an epicenter, melted snow, abd broken trees even not knowing about the injuries of the Ravine 4. Just observing the surrounding territory he started to suspect an explosion. You say the trees were wind or winter burnt. How do you know that? Do you see appropriate lab test in the original case files? It's your word against Ivanov's word, but Ivanov has an advantage, he was on the spot in 1959. And it is very important to note, Ivanov stressed that the trees were singed, not burnt. Yes, there are different types of burns: fire burns, frost burns, wind burns, etc. But 'singed' means lightly touched by fire. So, Ivanov meant fire, and that's why he started to look for explosion's traces.
When you say that Ivanov might had confused fire burnt trees with wind or winter burnt trees, you basically say that Ivanov was not competent. despite his boss says he was an excellent investigator. OK, at least, we cannot say that Ivanov lacked good intuition. The Ravine 4 were found in clear water of mountain creek -- part of untouched nature. However, Ivanov initiated radiation lab test, and (oh, gosh!) the test showed that the clothing was contaminated. Maybe, when looking for epicenter, he was led by his good intuition as well?
As I understand it , Ivanov does not speak about such things until 1990 ( I've been going back and forth across pages of stuff written by other people in articles and the case files , it's a mess ) . It's difficult to know if he's been misquoted.
I don't recall him mentioning broken trees or melted snow and his mention of the trees being burnt or singed is only linked to the article. I don't know how he would find melted snow after 3 months of weather and the thaw of the spring. ( There is mention of melted snow around the fire at the cedar when excavation was taking place).
I do not know what he means by his burnt or singed trees but he supplies nothing else , no other people at the site mention singed trees , especially the Mansi . This might be because it is not unusual for them to see wind burn?. We would have hoped that ivano would have said that he took some cuttings and discussed his observations with those that were their but he doesn't, he keeps all this secret until the 90's when articles and books come out . He writes to the editors of newpapers in a very peculiar way as if egging and teasing that he has a mysterious story.
The article or articles do not make Ivanov sound competent. Who knows why?
Here is the quote ,
"However, there were no traces of the explosion wave; Maslennikov and I examined this carefully."
From https://dyatlovpass.com/ivanov-2-ru
Central Television
Program "Ecology of the Unknown"
comrades Kuzovkin, Myagchenkov
Dear comrades!
Perhaps you'll be interested in my information about the events that took place thirty years ago in the Northern Urals. During this time, all information about this event was classified, but now several publications have appeared on it: in the Sverdlovsk regional newspaper "Uralsky Rabochy" and the Kustanay regional newspaper "Leninsky Put." I recently learned that some information was also published in the Sverdlovsk newspaper "Na Smenu." But the fact is that, unfortunately, I am the only one left who knows the true circumstances of this tragedy. The circumstances are in my notes.
We need to make a "presentation" so that you understand the reliability of the information source.
From 1951 to 1962, I worked as a criminal prosecutor in the Sverdlovsk Regional Prosecutor's Office (something like a captain-mentor in the navy). My job description required me to assist in investigating the most complex cases, and I took on some particularly challenging ones. That's how it's done today. In 1959, at the request of the regional prosecutor, Klimov, I investigated this case.
"From 1962 to 1965, I served as the head of the investigative department of the Tselinny Krai prosecutor's office. After the region's dissolution, I became deputy prosecutor of Pavlodar Oblast. From 1968 to 1978, I served as prosecutor of Pavlodar Oblast. From 1978 to 1985 (until my retirement), I served as prosecutor of Kostanay Oblast. I hold the rank of State Justice Counselor, 3rd Class, and am an Honorary Worker of the Prosecutor's Office. Now retired, I am a personal pensioner of republican significance and work as a lawyer for the Kostanay City Legal Clinic. So, it would seem that your source should be trustworthy.
The manuscript does not need to be returned.
Sincerely
Lev Nikitich Ivanov, signature
March 8, 1991"
The rest of the blurb is in the link. I don't even know if this is fake but it really reads like ivanov is implying , if you scratch my back I'll scratch yours. If anything .
It is here that fuel is poured onto the DPI to make a metaphorical explosion with no epicenter in the media, Ivanov seems to be the one that ignites the mystery . Strangely it's devoid of empathy or any factual meaning given his credentials.
The reasons given for the lab tests for radiation are even incompetent and again come years later. If Ivanov was in charge, it does not mean he's an expert on everything he sees. He can't know everything about radiation, avalanches , how cut canvas reacts to being cut under a microscope,nature and wind burn , etc
He was the conductor of an orchestra and waves his batten to the musicians informing them when to play the tune, in other words he was the lead investigator, he should be instructing all the people at his disposal and using all the resources but it seems he didn't?.
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Here is the quote ,
"However, there were no traces of the explosion wave; Maslennikov and I examined this carefully."
Thank you for the quote provided, got it!
Well, if we look at what Ivanov said exactly, we see that he failed to find traces of the explosion wave. Whether he eliminated an explosion as a possible cause of DPI or not, is not clear. It seems he kept considering an explosion along with other (more fantastic) causes like "heat ray" and "unknown energy". At minimum, in his interview to Bogomolov he mentions a blast, as though "a balloon had burst". One more thing -- traces of a criminal not always can be found on the scene of a crime. The criminal can be very cautious, wear gloves, etc. Does absense of traces indicate that the criminal is not guilty? No way. It means that investigator needs to work hard to get the evidence. In our case Ivanov was ready to work hard, but he was stopped by his bosses both in Prosecutor's office and Communist party.
But I have to agree that Ivanov failed to provide clear picture of his theory. He drifts between plasmoids and manned spaceships equipped with BFG thus creating a mess. He also failed to find melted snow, which would had been clear sign of a heat burst. Maybe, we can be more successful? We have a few recollections from members of the search party about big icy spot, which extended for about 150m at the slope. Here is what Rudolf Sedov says:
"Question: During the time of the search, did you notice anything strange?
R.Sedov: There was an anomaly, of course. There, in the place of search, a little further down the slope, there was a large icy space. The ice sparkled in the sun. We were told that this was a radiation melting, they say, in the mountains, like. Well, I, by the way, how many times I walked through these mountains, and this is decades, I have never seen anything like this. It could have been, in my opinion, some kind of thermal effect. And the most interesting thing is that they didn't let us in there. Said: "Everything has been checked there. Don't go."
Question: Where was this ice?
R.Sedov: 400 meters from the search site, closer to Otorten."
The full text can be found here: https://www.kp.ru/daily/26752/3782580/
So, even without Ivanov's "incompetency" we can find some anomalies in the vicinity of 1079. Number of anomalies grow, so we need to look at the new ones probably.
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I think this is mentioned in the case files and later interview. The raised footprints mainly occured between the 3 ridges on the slope, at the ridges the footprints would disappear or they would turn to imprints where feet had broken through thin ice. Depending on the weather , the slope could turn to ice, the search was asked to be called off because of this , several searchers had fallen and one of the military guys had hurt himself badly and was not moving . He had to be flown off the slope.
It is here than some of the searchers reckoned the injuries happened but that must be after the autopsy. I have read some where that it also to do with springs on the slope. If we look at the modern map and photos we can see the erosion of earth away from that area that they were told to avoid .
I think that's what it's about anyway.
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Depending on the weather , the slope could turn to ice
Could you elaborate a little more on that?
If we listen to Mr.Sedov, it seems that the large icy space was something very unusual to him, though he was a frequent visitor of those areas in winter hikes. This space began at the 3rd ridge and went down to bush zone. Dyatlov group's footprints approached that icy space from above, then few footprints could be seen after the icy space. The question is if that icy space emerged before or after the Dyatlov group went down the slope. What do you think?
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Depending on the weather , the slope could turn to ice
Could you elaborate a little more on that?
If we listen to Mr.Sedov, it seems that the large icy space was something very unusual to him, though he was a frequent visitor of those areas in winter hikes. This space began at the 3rd ridge and went down to bush zone. Dyatlov group's footprints approached that icy space from above, then few footprints could be seen after the icy space. The question is if that icy space emerged before or after the Dyatlov group went down the slope. What do you think?
I can try but some of its memory from this site and other people's links. I'm sure it's in the case files as I started ready them again with three different translations. There are small errors of translation and some times words just happen to have a different meaning.
It is in the case files ( somewhere) that when the weather deteriorated, the slope became slippery or something. It was noted that all these rocks stick out and it was one of the areas where if the hikers started sliding and hit those rocks , then that would easily account for the injuries. The snow surface is never constant in texture or density of snow and it's why crampons exist I guess. We must remember that the slope where Igor, Zina and rustem are found are basically in line withe the ravine and the start of the river.
(https://i.ibb.co/20H6WDzn/Screenshot-20250905-082941-4.png) (https://ibb.co/4w3fK6bm)
(https://i.ibb.co/d0Ysssd2/Screenshot-20251118-142717.png) (https://ibb.co/HD8LLLWz)
Im sure someone said that there was a spring , I thought they meant the spring as time of year but I think they meant underground water spring. Obviously this ravine or creek is not the ravine 4 creek .
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Obviously this ravine or creek is not the ravine 4 creek .
Sure, they are different. In general, all sad events happend in the Lozva river valley. Lozva has a few water tributaries. Zina, Rustem, and Igor were on a single line, which goes very close and almost in parallel with the tributary number 4. The "Ravine 4" creek is in turn a water tributary to the Tributary #4. But all these water sources are well below the icy spot mentioned by Mr.Sedov and could not be responsble for its formation.
I always have been curious how that icy spot had emerged. And when...
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Obviously this ravine or creek is not the ravine 4 creek .
Sure, they are different. In general, all sad events happend in the Lozva river valley. Lozva has a few water tributaries. Zina, Rustem, and Igor were on a single line, which goes very close and almost in parallel with the tributary number 4. The "Ravine 4" creek is in turn a water tributary to the Tributary #4. But all these water sources are well below the icy spot mentioned by Mr.Sedov and could not be responsble for its formation.
I always have been curious how that icy spot had emerged. And when...
The icy surfaces you mentioned are likely found on many mountain slopes. I suspect this is because they lack sunlight and are exposed to cold winds. This causes them to freeze over and flatten. And if we were to go to the scene now, it would likely be there again.
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Sarapuk, the closure order referred to an "act of God," meaning a natural force. Roughly speaking, it would be like if a person died in a hurricane or tornado.
Is an Act of God a natural thing?
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@, sarapuk, sorry , could you please edit this so it shows your opinion clearly. You have added your comment on to mine and it makes it unreadable. I know it's a bit fiddly to do. Thanks.
Apologies.
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Here is the quote ,
"However, there were no traces of the explosion wave; Maslennikov and I examined this carefully."
Thank you for the quote provided, got it!
Well, if we look at what Ivanov said exactly, we see that he failed to find traces of the explosion wave. Whether he eliminated an explosion as a possible cause of DPI or not, is not clear. It seems he kept considering an explosion along with other (more fantastic) causes like "heat ray" and "unknown energy". At minimum, in his interview to Bogomolov he mentions a blast, as though "a balloon had burst". One more thing -- traces of a criminal not always can be found on the scene of a crime. The criminal can be very cautious, wear gloves, etc. Does absense of traces indicate that the criminal is not guilty? No way. It means that investigator needs to work hard to get the evidence. In our case Ivanov was ready to work hard, but he was stopped by his bosses both in Prosecutor's office and Communist party.
But I have to agree that Ivanov failed to provide clear picture of his theory. He drifts between plasmoids and manned spaceships equipped with BFG thus creating a mess. He also failed to find melted snow, which would had been clear sign of a heat burst. Maybe, we can be more successful? We have a few recollections from members of the search party about big icy spot, which extended for about 150m at the slope. Here is what Rudolf Sedov says:
"Question: During the time of the search, did you notice anything strange?
R.Sedov: There was an anomaly, of course. There, in the place of search, a little further down the slope, there was a large icy space. The ice sparkled in the sun. We were told that this was a radiation melting, they say, in the mountains, like. Well, I, by the way, how many times I walked through these mountains, and this is decades, I have never seen anything like this. It could have been, in my opinion, some kind of thermal effect. And the most interesting thing is that they didn't let us in there. Said: "Everything has been checked there. Don't go."
Question: Where was this ice?
R.Sedov: 400 meters from the search site, closer to Otorten."
The full text can be found here: https://www.kp.ru/daily/26752/3782580/
So, even without Ivanov's "incompetency" we can find some anomalies in the vicinity of 1079. Number of anomalies grow, so we need to look at the new ones probably.
Like many others, Ivanov was trying to figure out what the hell had happened. He had his ideas or theories, same as everyone else. It may be unfair to describe him as incompetent. He may have had orders from the top. Now, as for the anomalies. we know all we are likely to know unless there are things hidden away in the Authorities' archives. The anomaly on the slope is interesting. Maybe it was caused by one of those so-called fireballs, which we could describe as a UFO.
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I think this is mentioned in the case files and later interview. The raised footprints mainly occured between the 3 ridges on the slope, at the ridges the footprints would disappear or they would turn to imprints where feet had broken through thin ice. Depending on the weather , the slope could turn to ice, the search was asked to be called off because of this , several searchers had fallen and one of the military guys had hurt himself badly and was not moving . He had to be flown off the slope.
It is here than some of the searchers reckoned the injuries happened but that must be after the autopsy. I have read some where that it also to do with springs on the slope. If we look at the modern map and photos we can see the erosion of earth away from that area that they were told to avoid .
I think that's what it's about anyway.
Springs on the slope. That's a new one to me! Maybe away to the area where the ravine was. But on the slope that the Dyatlov Group walked down?
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Obviously this ravine or creek is not the ravine 4 creek .
Sure, they are different. In general, all sad events happend in the Lozva river valley. Lozva has a few water tributaries. Zina, Rustem, and Igor were on a single line, which goes very close and almost in parallel with the tributary number 4. The "Ravine 4" creek is in turn a water tributary to the Tributary #4. But all these water sources are well below the icy spot mentioned by Mr.Sedov and could not be responsble for its formation.
I always have been curious how that icy spot had emerged. And when...
So, how many ravines are there at the Dyatlov Pass? I'm familiar with one. Although to me it's more like a gulley.
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Obviously this ravine or creek is not the ravine 4 creek .
Sure, they are different. In general, all sad events happend in the Lozva river valley. Lozva has a few water tributaries. Zina, Rustem, and Igor were on a single line, which goes very close and almost in parallel with the tributary number 4. The "Ravine 4" creek is in turn a water tributary to the Tributary #4. But all these water sources are well below the icy spot mentioned by Mr.Sedov and could not be responsble for its formation.
I always have been curious how that icy spot had emerged. And when...
The icy surfaces you mentioned are likely found on many mountain slopes. I suspect this is because they lack sunlight and are exposed to cold winds. This causes them to freeze over and flatten. And if we were to go to the scene now, it would likely be there again.
It would be a bit strange if they lacked sunlight on an open slope with no trees or other objects to obscure the sun's rays !
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Obviously this ravine or creek is not the ravine 4 creek .
Sure, they are different. In general, all sad events happend in the Lozva river valley. Lozva has a few water tributaries. Zina, Rustem, and Igor were on a single line, which goes very close and almost in parallel with the tributary number 4. The "Ravine 4" creek is in turn a water tributary to the Tributary #4. But all these water sources are well below the icy spot mentioned by Mr.Sedov and could not be responsble for its formation.
I always have been curious how that icy spot had emerged. And when...
So, how many ravines are there at the Dyatlov Pass? I'm familiar with one. Although to me it's more like a gulley.
The locations of the bodies are slightly different on the maps but the black and white photo gives good contrast to see the stream/creek/ ravine that is mentioned which is not the ravine where the ravine 4 are found.
The case file document with the red hash lines indicate the area that is to be probed , this is where the snow gathers in the gulley , ravine etc. we can see the start of this stream with the little oval where water seems to pool , this may be the spring that is mentioned.
The searchers wouldn't know what exactly lay below the snow in 1959 but the mention of ice has been observed in other years , teddy mentions it in her article from this year's visit. My guess is is that ice is formed early in the winter season around the bare stones ,helped by the wind then the snow falls.
Again, once Zina and Igor are found in this deep snow of the gully, it is the searchers logic that the other hikers are in the same area. It is then the resources are requested for the search. The bodies are assumed to be buried and not lying in the open, hence the dogs , probes and sappers.
The communication is by radiograms , there is no live zoom or team meetings . There are no detailed maps ,all that is known within 24 hours of the tent being found , bodies were found under snow and it's up to 2 meters deep, indicated in the area of the red hash lines.
Those with the power of the resources don't suggest scientists, artillery , lorry drivers , mechanics and film cameras , they suggest the most sensible things at their disposal, dogs and sappers . The sappers are pulled from a bridge building project it would seem. A sapper is the ideal military person to be used in the scenario of digging as it's the actual origin of the name , to dig trenches . They would probably be the most fit to dig if needed. The way this all unfolds is completely logical .
https://dyatlovpass.com/maps
(https://i.ibb.co/qFsVm74w/Screenshot-20251126-044058-Chrome.png) (https://ibb.co/845tPNRV)
(https://i.ibb.co/twGHH0FP/Screenshot-20251126-044213-Chrome.png) (https://ibb.co/nqGwwXt8)
(https://i.ibb.co/35j3v6Fb/Screenshot-20251126-044925-Maps.png) (https://ibb.co/Q7TgkSHV)
(https://i.ibb.co/fGxwwjHc/Screenshot-20251126-045025-Maps.png) (https://ibb.co/DgR220Qq)
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Obviously this ravine or creek is not the ravine 4 creek .
Sure, they are different. In general, all sad events happend in the Lozva river valley. Lozva has a few water tributaries. Zina, Rustem, and Igor were on a single line, which goes very close and almost in parallel with the tributary number 4. The "Ravine 4" creek is in turn a water tributary to the Tributary #4. But all these water sources are well below the icy spot mentioned by Mr.Sedov and could not be responsble for its formation.
I always have been curious how that icy spot had emerged. And when...
The icy surfaces you mentioned are likely found on many mountain slopes. I suspect this is because they lack sunlight and are exposed to cold winds. This causes them to freeze over and flatten. And if we were to go to the scene now, it would likely be there again.
It would be a bit strange if they lacked sunlight on an open slope with no trees or other objects to obscure the sun's rays !
The lack of sunlight means they weren't getting enough. So, the cold winds were much more effective than the sunlight. And that part froze. I think snow can freeze into ice in very cold temperatures. And strong winds can flatten the ice sheet. Just like a skating rink...