Why didn't any of the group leave a message

[Nigel Evans]

Difficult to see, but is the circled footprint a booted print? I think i can see toes, so probably in a sock. It looks like a bare or snow-covered foot to me. Could it be that with more heat (even a rapidly cooling bare or sock foot would exude significantly more heat than a foot covered by a boot), there is an area around the foot where the snow briefly melted then refroze (therefore esisting being blown away later)? It's just weird, the "border" has a depression right next to the edge of the foot where the wind has eroded more snow than further out. Must be chemicals he says confidently. 

I am new to this particular topic. I am very curious to know if there is any science on raised footprints, i.e. at what temperatures are they known to form.

If I could find a windswept area on a hill where no one else would walk, I could do my own experiments.  A pity I'm a city dweller now and no longer in the country.

[Nigel Evans]

Also...how was a den dug with no shovels and only one person with gloves? Even in a comparatively "warm" den, it would be madness to keep your gloves in your pocket and not put them on. Like, "yeah our friends at the cedar tree just died but I think we got this" ....to be fair, Tibo was very likely unconscious and his friends may not have realized he had gloves in his pockets. (Which makes Semyon's den construction feat even more amazing, if he constructed it with bare hands in -25Cish weather.) They had a knife for the poles making the den floor and there were lots of fragments of clothing lying around including one or more near the den.  Just my guess but binding a couple of poles together with some fabric gives you some traction in digging out snow and pushing it onto a larger piece of cloth for moving it away.

I remember seeing a Borzenkov post where he hypothesized that the "den" was never really a "den" at all; that it was just a platform of branches on top of the snow, that much later got completely covered in snow (if I'm remembering correctly). I've shown that the final position of the bodies and the injuries can be made to fit the den being occupied before a tracked vehicle traveled over the top and crushed them. Let me know if you need the link.

[Nigel Evans]

Lets not forget the snow at and around the tent. The rescuers had to dismount as the snow was to hard and corrugated to ski over. The tent was damaged because the snow on top of it was so hard they needed an ice pick to get through it. Imo all signs that the snow had been "warmed" and then returned to normal frozen temps.

[Star man]

It would be interesting to know the conditions required for raised foot prints. I think there will a few variables to consider including the particle size, specific surface area of the snow, the temperature, and the voidage of the snow etc.  Also wind conditions and initial wet moisture content.  Thinking about it is probably quite complicated to define.

The snow when subjected to pressure from the foot will be compressed, but the pressure will also cause some melting resulting in the particles of snow  sticking together.   The forces from the foot will spread downward and outward at about 45 degrees near the foot.  This might explain the raised border around the foot.

What is interesting is that if there were any  foot prints that were several centimetres deeper than those made by the hikers would not have revealed themselves.

Regards

Star man

[Star man]

Also...how was a den dug with no shovels and only one person with gloves? Even in a comparatively "warm" den, it would be madness to keep your gloves in your pocket and not put them on. Like, "yeah our friends at the cedar tree just died but I think we got this" ....to be fair, Tibo was very likely unconscious and his friends may not have realized he had gloves in his pockets. (Which makes Semyon's den construction feat even more amazing, if he constructed it with bare hands in -25Cish weather.)

I remember seeing a Borzenkov post where he hypothesized that the "den" was never really a "den" at all; that it was just a platform of branches on top of the snow, that much later got completely covered in snow (if I'm remembering correctly).

It's unlikely that the den was anything substantial given they were using their hands.  Agree that Thibo must have been unconscious before he had a chance to put his gloves on.  Which leaves a question around when and where he became unconscious and how?  Was he close to the tent?  How far would he have walked in a conscious state without putting his gloves on? The foot prints suggest 8 to 9 people.  Maybe it was 8 for a fair distance down the slope?

Regards

Star man

[sarapuk]

At what point during a desperate action to survive should you give up and  stop to write your last words?

Regards

Star man

We dont how long they experienced the actual threat that caused them to leave their Tent. Also they could still have written something at the Treeline or so called Den. But its possible that they did leave a clue in the Tent.

[sarapuk]

Remember there are missing diaries which it is assumed were confiscated. So arguments that assume we have a complete understanding of what was written and what wasn't are false arguments.

Yes its important that everyone understands that there may be much information that is missing and its good that you hit the nail on the head here.

[sarapuk]

Exactly. I consider unnatural to stop fighting whatever is attacking you, or completely loosing hope for survival.
Again, the only example that I can think of is being stuck in a out of control airplane.
There was a movie after real events, Into the Wild, I recommend watching it. The protagonist wrote goodby notes.
To get to this stage ones needs to have time and nothing better to do.

Yeah anyone trained in survival will know that the moment you admit defeat is the point at which you seal your fate.  When time is against it is better to put your efforts in securing your survival rather than writing your memoirs.  The dyatlov group would know this.

Regards
Star man

If you don't have a chance to survive, you want to write something about danger. Especially if you've seen something extraordinary. You want to inform people to tell you that. Because you probably know you're gonna die.

Yes if you had time you would certainly want to inform others of what you had experienced. Knowing that its a life and death situation of an unusual kind.

[sarapuk]

First of all, as has been pointed out, the first instincts of the 9 would have been geared towards surviving their desperate situation. 

Secondly, perhaps they had an experience that they did not understand or would not have been able to convey in a few scribbled words.

Thirdly. Any "free time" to write would have meant that any of them were at rest, so, either a. succumbing to severe and no doubt extremely painful traumatic injuries, or b. in at least the moderate to severe stages of hypothermia, which are characterized by severe incoordination and confusion (people who have been rescued from near-hypothermic-death usually report hallucinations and disconnection from reality).

But its all pure speculation that you mention.

[sarapuk]

Another point. These are the current temperatures where I live. I can tell you with complete certainty that after 60 seconds of having a glove off, I can barely use my hand to pick something up, let alone write legibly. I forget if any of the hikers were found with mittens or any hand protection?

But we dont know the exact temperature at the time of the Dyatlov Incident.

[cennetkusu]

Another point. These are the current temperatures where I live. I can tell you with complete certainty that after 60 seconds of having a glove off, I can barely use my hand to pick something up, let alone write legibly. I forget if any of the hikers were found with mittens or any hand protection?

But we dont know the exact temperature at the time of the Dyatlov Incident.

If they dug a lair in the snow, it wouldn't be too cold. It must be between -10 degrees and 15 degrees. The two yuri may have been subjected to a steady tremor due to the cold. That's probably why they wanted to light fire. The presence of fever also indicates that there is no strong wind. If it was already strong wind the weather would be much colder and it would not have been possible to dig in the snow.

[Zorah]

It's unlikely that the den was anything substantial given they were using their hands.  Agree that Thibo must have been unconscious before he had a chance to put his gloves on.  Which leaves a question around when and where he became unconscious and how?  Was he close to the tent?  How far would he have walked in a conscious state without putting his gloves on? The foot prints suggest 8 to 9 people.  Maybe it was 8 for a fair distance down the slope?

Regards

Star man

I've seen elsewhere (autopsy report? Can't remember now) that it was considered unlikely that Tibo could have walked with that head injury. My background as a nurse is not in trauma, but I know enough about the brain to be able to say, pretty confidently, that it was an injury due to chemicals.  Haha, just teasing Nigel E.  In all seriousness though, I very much doubt Tibo could have been conscious with a severe head/brain injury like that, let alone walked. So: either he is injured at the tent and carried, or he walks under his own power to the ravine or close by and is injured there.

[Zorah]

Also...how was a den dug with no shovels and only one person with gloves? Even in a comparatively "warm" den, it would be madness to keep your gloves in your pocket and not put them on. Like, "yeah our friends at the cedar tree just died but I think we got this" ....to be fair, Tibo was very likely unconscious and his friends may not have realized he had gloves in his pockets. (Which makes Semyon's den construction feat even more amazing, if he constructed it with bare hands in -25Cish weather.) They had a knife for the poles making the den floor and there were lots of fragments of clothing lying around including one or more near the den.  Just my guess but binding a couple of poles together with some fabric gives you some traction in digging out snow and pushing it onto a larger piece of cloth for moving it away.

I remember seeing a Borzenkov post where he hypothesized that the "den" was never really a "den" at all; that it was just a platform of branches on top of the snow, that much later got completely covered in snow (if I'm remembering correctly). I've shown that the final position of the bodies and the injuries can be made to fit the den being occupied before a tracked vehicle traveled over the top and crushed them. Let me know if you need the link.

Nigel: yes, please, the link would he appreciated! Thank you.

[Zorah]

Lets not forget the snow at and around the tent. The rescuers had to dismount as the snow was to hard and corrugated to ski over. The tent was damaged because the snow on top of it was so hard they needed an ice pick to get through it. Imo all signs that the snow had been "warmed" and then returned to normal frozen temps.

In Igor's diary, on Jan 30 I think?-he specifically mentions there is a hard crust on the snow. Temperatures had been fluctuating.
And remember that Igor would have been writing in his diary PRE-mysterious-rogue-rocket-that-heats-the-surrounding-area-to-flash-melt-the-snow. She said confidently. 
 I have an experiment on my front lawn, currently, with a set of footprints made in foot-deep snow. They were made under cold conditons. It's warmed up significantly here, and gotten windy----I will keep you all posted on whether any raised footprints show up.

[Zorah]

I thought the temperatures on the night of the incident were fairly well understood? I have seen weather reports from different weather stations situated around the Pass, and from that it was extrapolated that it was between -15C to -25C? I end with a question mark, and am open to correction on this, as I'm still so new to the case (only 4 weeks of complete obsession, although there's certainly a lot you can read in four weeks, especially if you give up basic "necessities" like sleeping and eating.)

[Zorah]

First of all, as has been pointed out, the first instincts of the 9 would have been geared towards surviving their desperate situation. 

Secondly, perhaps they had an experience that they did not understand or would not have been able to convey in a few scribbled words.

Thirdly. Any "free time" to write would have meant that any of them were at rest, so, either a. succumbing to severe and no doubt extremely painful traumatic injuries, or b. in at least the moderate to severe stages of hypothermia, which are characterized by severe incoordination and confusion (people who have been rescued from near-hypothermic-death usually report hallucinations and disconnection from reality).

But its all pure speculation that you mention.

Not 100%. I would postulate that it is more than a little likely that a group of trained wilderness explorers, faced with a situation in which all their lives are threatened, would concentrate most or all their fading energies on upping their chances of survival.
My second point is, as you say, purely speculative. But interesting nonetheless, I opine.
My third point is also quite likely to be true. Outside of shelter and with inadequate clothing, hypothermia would set in rather rapidly. By the time they reached the treeline, without doubt. I have beside me three textbooks of wilderness medicine which all define mild hypothermia as being characterized by mild confusion and irrational decision making. Semyon, Lyuda and Tibo all had injuries that very likely would have precluded writing.
And I challenge you----if you have access to cold temperatures----expose yourself to even -5C for 40 minutes (minimum time from tent to treeline), with no protective handgear at all, and see if you can write legibly afterwards. I went out today at -14C without gloves and, after a walk of 6 minutes, could barely use my smartphone. I'm sure I couldn't have written legibly.

[Star man]

It's unlikely that the den was anything substantial given they were using their hands.  Agree that Thibo must have been unconscious before he had a chance to put his gloves on.  Which leaves a question around when and where he became unconscious and how?  Was he close to the tent?  How far would he have walked in a conscious state without putting his gloves on? The foot prints suggest 8 to 9 people.  Maybe it was 8 for a fair distance down the slope?

Regards

Star man

I've seen elsewhere (autopsy report? Can't remember now) that it was considered unlikely that Tibo could have walked with that head injury. My background as a nurse is not in trauma, but I know enough about the brain to be able to say, pretty confidently, that it was an injury due to chemicals.  Haha, just teasing Nigel E.  In all seriousness though, I very much doubt Tibo could have been conscious with a severe head/brain injury like that, let alone walked. So: either he is injured at the tent and carried, or he walks under his own power to the ravine or close by and is injured there.

You are probably correct about Thibo not being conscious.  It would also be a good reason for the group to split up.  Thibo would have slowed the descent if he needed to be carried.  They may have decided that it would be better if a separate group went on ahead to build a fire/shelter to save time.

Regards
Star man