Expedition July 30-August 11, 2022

[Teddy]

I wonder at the degree to which the canned milk container was ruined. I can see using the can and just tossing it. I can see using the can and hand crushing it as a macho thing. It seems to me that the twisted and fragmentary nature of the can would get that way if someone was needing a knife edge or trying to make a reflector of some sort.

We first thought that we see holes from bear fangs, the Russians thought it was axed. Yoan Donev, expert from the Central Laboratory for Conservation and Restoration from the National Historical Museum in Bulgaria, said the can was empty because if it was unopened the body would have been stronger, and that the tin can was crushed in one of the following ways:
"A) embrittlement due to corrosion;
B) someone stepped on it;
C) fall of a branch/stone something from nature, ice...
Could have been crushed by the same tree that fell on top of the tent (or its branch)."



Yoan Donev looked closely (under microscope) at the holes I thought could be from fangs and explained that they are corrosion. He said that they would have looked differently if the perforation was prior to the corrosion.



I have videos of a bear and another of a bear with a cub on the Dyatlov Pass that I will try to publish this week. But they are from summer/autumn, bears hibernate in winter. Not all bears. Anyway, a bear didn't chew up the can in question.

[Teddy]

Oleg Taymen started posting photos from the labaz location here:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1149.0

[Teddy]

And there was no logging works at the pass

I never said logging, what do you think the Northern Geological Expedition was doing there?
And I have Aeromagnetic survey reports and maps from 1959 to prove it.

[Игорь Б.]

На крышке консервной банки две дырки от ножа - дырка побольше чтобы пить, а дырка поменьше - для доступа воздуха. Есть фильм с такой сценой, где пробивают банку ножом и пьют, но не могу вспомнить его название.

...пробивали ножом 2 дырочки : одну побольше (через неё тянули сгущёнку), а другую поменьше, чтобы воздух поступал в банку и сгущёнка свободно лилась в рот!

https://vseonauke.com/594142662279301801/interesnye-fakty-o-sguschenke/

Достаточно сделать сверху дырочку гвоздём, ножницами, другим острым предметом, даже заточенной напильником ручкой обычной ложки. Но лучше, чтобы дырочек было две в разных сторонах, тогда легче сгущёнка вытекать будет.

http://www.bolshoyvopros.ru/questions/281202-kak-otkryt-banku-sguschjonnogo-moloka-esli-net-nozha.html

Вы тоже делали дырку в банке со сгущёнкой?

https://vk.com/wall-162924424_826967

Банка с дырочками удобна в походных условиях. Её можно не допивать всю сразу, а оставить на потом.

Карелин не брал банки к кедру потому, что он был студент и ему бы их никто не дал. Кроме того их лагерь тогда был в 2,5 километрах от кедра. Но кроме студентов были солдаты, которым было наплевать на всё, а лагерь Ортюкова был уже в 100-150 метрах от кедра.

the jar  the can

[Teddy]

A night around the cedar, you have to click the link Watch on YouTube.

[Teddy]

On the lid of the can there are two holes from a knife - a larger hole for drinking, and a smaller hole for air.

I hereby declare Игор Б. a genius and I am being sincere. After what he posted I thought - how could have we missed it, and forwarded the suggestion to Yoan Donev. Since I am en route I left the can in his care. He made new photos and Bam! right in the bulls eye.











Игор Б. 

[Teddy]

About the Northern Geological Expedition - it is not just me who smells something fishy. Here is a post by Salty SeaDog on Facebook:

I was looking further into Sulman, who was head of the Northern Geological Expedition in the middle Urals section over the time of the Dyatlov case. He was also a deputy councilor, of you guessed it, Ivdel CC, like some other prominent citizens in this case. Not only this he was head of the search and rescue for the missing trekkers and his radio operator was none other than Nevolin whom initially traveled with Kurikovs search party then concentrated in the 1079 area. So we have non military in charge of an important search, Ivdellag recruits from Unit 6602 putting on a show for the military presence but not finding anything but leaving all the discoveries up to the students (Sharavin) and mansi to quickly tie the whole mess up. Just an observation on my part.

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

                    Reply #31   
............................................................
Ivanov, Prodanov, Shestopalov and Sulman were not responsible of events happening to adult hikers in the mountains
.....................
The idea is a bit anachronistic:
....................................

The idea of making local officials responsible for natural hazards in the Urals does not hold water.

This idea is completely anachronistic:
It may have come from the increasing legalization of life in the USA, but it did not exist in 1959 in the USSR.

One of the principles of category 3 hiking was:

You will be alone (no radio...) and also the only ones responsible for your fate: everything is possible, but the worst is not certain.

However, if on the agreed date you don't give any sign of life, then we organise the rescue.

Lev Gordo has been criticised for waiting too long after the agreed date.

                    Reply #36
....................
Tens of thousands of trees fall in winter in Russia every winter..... Who could prove that the fall of this one was not natural ?
.........................
Sulman, Ivanov, Prodanov and Shestopalov decide that the blasting in the area caused the fall of the tree in violation of safety requirements."
...................

Perhaps it is a confusion between the arbitrary condemnations of the Stalinist period and the lack of knowledge of the justice reforms undertaken during the Khrushchev Thaw.

Or it would be necessary to find some clues  that Sulman, Ivanov, Prodanov and Shestopalov were mentally ill and paranoid.

[Игорь Б.]

On the lid of the can there are two holes from a knife - a larger hole for drinking, and a smaller hole for air.

I hereby declare Игор Б. a genius and I am being sincere.

О том, что эти отверстия были могли быть сделаны для питья молока из банки было сказано сразу при обнаружении банки человеком в камуфляже с металлоискателем, но никто не обратил на это внимания. Почему-то сейчас не могу найти это видео.

Такой способ высасывания сгущённого молока из банки знают почти все русские:
https://youtu.be/Suu04WUYoA8?t=1538

На 25 мин. 38 сек.

[Teddy]

О том, что эти отверстия были могли быть сделаны для питья молока из банки было сказано сразу при обнаружении банки человеком в камуфляже с металлоискателем, но никто не обратил на это внимания. Почему-то сейчас не могу найти это видео.

Alexey Komanyov (aka Korolyov) said in this article that the can was opened with an axe, but I didn't get "эти отверстия были могли быть сделаны для питья молока из банки".
https://dyatlovpass.com/canned-time-ru (so the rest of the members can switch to English)
https://www.oblgazeta.ru/society/137918/ (original article)

Let me know if you find it on video again.

[GlennM]

Seeing the knife through one hole in the can looks impressive. Could a Finnish knife make both holes?

[Ziljoe]

A night around the cedar, you have to click the link Watch on YouTube.

An interesting video Teddy, I would recommend the other videos linked from the dropdown bar too. The comment section on the YouTube videos should be of interest for many here also. Similar arguments:0) with lots of links.

[Игорь Б.]

Let me know if you find it on video again.

https://youtu.be/-dAYBY9Bt_s?t=313

Как будто отверстия...
Да, а это не сгущёнку пробивали чтобы пить?
Две дырочки же пробивают. Хотя на противоположных концах, а не рядом.

Проконсультировался с опытным копателем: части от консервных банок - обычная находка. Остальное съедает коррозия из-за неоднородности антикоррозийного покрытия банки.
Предметы и их части на склоне могут перемещаться на значительные расстояния.

Небольшое отверстие могло быть проделано круговым движением кончика ножа.

[Игорь Б.]

1.5 kg of salt ? Was soviet salt not salty ? Or what ?

Для каш и лапши общей массой около 15 кг.

[GlennM]

Yet, it seems improbable that a tent crushed by a tree would be restored by conspirators to  the place where it was found by rescuers.

Initially the rescue was normal, bodies flown to the nearest morgue, investigation began, the tent was folded and taken to Ivdel the same way they did end of February, the second time they "found" it.
When the conspirators decided to stage the scene they pitched the tent where the labaz was found marked exactly as it was found where found at their nearest camp site. Igor and i believe that the conspirators used the hole that was made for the labaz to stage the tent. They left the footprints going down to rest the bodies where they found them.

This human behavior is called body dump so the people who are doing it are not blamed for causing the death which they didn't but explain this to the Communist Party. Who else is going to be the scapegoat?

Regarding the remark about they left footprints going down to the rest of the bodies... Am I correct that the suggestion is that  a group of nine conspirators took their shoes off, some even going barefoot down that frozen slope in order to fool Soviet authorities?

[GlennM]

Charles, your analysis of the timeline and mechanics of a physical coverup is food for thought,  All that activity would result in tracks and environmental scarring, neither which was documented. Occam's razor. The conspiracy theories require far too much us to accept them as fact. I also feel that vodka would eventually loosen the tongue of someone involved with the coverup.

I like the idea that the hikers made camp at elevation 880 on hill 1079. They hiked uphill and over the mountain pass to get there in order to make a fast run at Otorten the following day. They prepped their camp by digging a snow ledge, placed skis below and the tent above and made a cold camp for one night. They suffered a slab slip which prompted their withdrawal from the collapsed tent and suffered the conditions to overnight it in the forest below. They misjudged the distance at night and their reserves. This resulted in a cascade decisions, injuries and heroic but ineffective responses all of which proved fatal.

As you point out, to cover up a tragedy that requires no covering up, it would entail such resources, coordination and planning in the absence of witnesses as to be an expedition in it's own right. This to protect who? 
.

[neni_cesty_zpet]

Cover up of what? I can imagine covering scenario when some adversary wanted to hide the original location of tent where something happened and a lot of evidence that cannot be wiped out was still present there (etc. blood traces, evidence of fight).

Or attempt to fake avalanche accident (e.g. making the tent looking collapsed, using some shovels to cover it a bit with snow....)

If it were real avalanche then how Lyuda Dubinina, Zolotarev and few others made it to ravine? I read that Lyuda was dead about 10 minutes after the injury...

Maybe ravine seats were used by Kolmogorova, Slobodin and Dyatlov. The other site was in fact grave where dead comrades were stored 

[WarpedWing]

The idea of making local officials responsible for natural hazards in the Urals does not hold water.

This idea is completely anachronistic:
It may have come from the increasing legalization of life in the USA, but it did not exist in 1959 in the USSR.

I agree. Even in lawsuit-happy 2022 USA, when you're in the woods, you're on your own, legally, if you get hurt, unless it's from malevolent action. Even in a national park. In fact, the National Parks Service will not hesitate to make an example out of your park misadventures if it stems from stupidity, such as being gored by a bison you got too close to or falling into a boiling geyser.

I feel like I missed something here. Is the suggestion that someone cut down a tree (a noisy proposition) near the hikers' tent, they slept through it, and some were crushed by it? The remaining non-crushed hikers were then killed? The loggers didn't come and help? I'm not sure I understand. All the logging I've seen requires substantial road access for the trucks. And it makes a lot of noise and smell.

The milk can is a thrilling find, and it's fascinating to think about how it could fit in to the mystery. I'm not discounting that the hikers may have camped by the tree and there was a coverup, but I can't see it stemming from a tree-crushing incident. A tree-crush already looks like an accident, because it is one. There would have to be a more serious reason for a cover-up. And since it only crushed a few hikers, what about the others? Why did they all die? Apart from the blunt-force trauma deaths, the others don't give the initial impression of murder. The bodies all do look like they've been through a bit of hell, though.

Regarding the crushing deaths: how does the speed on impact affect the general appearance of a corpse? For example, a tree hurtling down toward the tent goes fairly fast, and that force is focused on the (relatively) narrow area of the trunk. A heavy snow field might crush you more slowly but effect an identical force. F=ma and all that. In my mind, a large tree falling down might splatter a person like a grape, and at the very least leave some blood in the tent, no?

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

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[Jean Daniel Reuss]

Error : my photos of chain saws are gone too soon.......

Because of their important and undisputed official functions the conspirators were able to dispose of and also justify the use of one or more Mil Mi-4 helicopters to the various authorities at Ivdel airport (Air Force in the Urals District...).

Thus the conspirators could easily transport teams of 10-12 competent elite workers to the pass (early February).

                    Reply #48
......................
They lifted the fallen cedar (with hoists and/or crane),
.........................................
This ATS-59 with a crane would have been perfect to lift the fallen cedar, safely remove the tent and its content, and put the cedar back in place.

No need for lifting equipment. It was much simpler and faster to cut the fallen tree into smaller pieces (and collect the chips on a tarpaulin).

To fix the ideas, I consider (to schematize the tree) a cylinder of wood: diameter 80 cm, length 20 meters whose weight is approximately 6 tons
With the powerful chainsaws that were widespread in the region in 1959, it took less than an hour to cut this cylinder into 20 pieces weighing 300 kg.





These pieces were scattered a little further down in the taiga and may still be there because no one went to look.

                    Reply #48   
....................
The works were completed in at least 11 days :

- planification, team and equipment gathering : 3 days
- setting up base camp : 1 day
- building two tripods : 1 day
- labaz relocation : 1 day
- lifting of cedar and tent removal : 1 day
- relocation of the tent on the slope : 1 day
- removing all work equipment : 1 day
- checking the cleanliness of the site : 2 days
............................

The items to be moved were not very heavy - bodies: 75-80 kg, contents of the Labaz: 55 kg, rucksack: 35-40 kg, etc.
Moreover, the final disposition to be left for the findings from 26 February onwards did not require much precision since nobody saw the result of the crush under the fallen tree.

In my opinion the time of 1 day indicated for each operation is too long. I would rather use 0.25 days. This would allow the entire staging to be completed in 3 days and not 12 (or 11).

Indeed, I think that the teams of elite workers hired by the conspirators were competent and worked quickly and efficiently.


•••  However, the difficulties of landing helicopters on the pass were perhaps underestimated.

Victor Vasilyevich  Potyazhenko himself said that it was very difficult for a helicopter to fly there. "It is even harder than even in the Caucasus mountains..."

https://dyatlovpass.com/interview-potyazhenko?filter_page=5&rbid=18461

The helicopters could only land on a horizontal surface, so at point 818.0, which is quite far from Cedar.
(the cross (X) at the bottom of the image).

[GlennM]

It seems that force fitting a fallen branch explanation coupled with bad people moving evidence uphill to a barren slope yet leaving their bodies at or near where the branch fell is too much of a reach for the me. Helicopters? Tractors? Manpower? Follow the money. There are fuel records, food use records, manpower records, none of which have been entered as evidence. Why? Because things didn't happen that way.  Just like it was suggested, if you tease the bison, you get the horn. In this case, they challenged the elements and the elements won. It is sad, but requires no additional complexity. Bad things can happen to good hikers.

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

                    Reply #55   
..........................................
In Teddy's theory, the tree is still on site, today, and in one piece:

So this is what remains of the tree that fell on the tent.

It is difficult to imagine what the lateral branches that disappeared were like.

The diameter near the base of the remaining trunk is also difficult to assess. I would say no more than 35 cm; do you have an opinion on this ?

To fix the ideas by an order of magnitude, I consider a cylinder of wood of density 0.6 (equal to that of pinus sibirica and birch):

diameter 35 cm, length 15 metres, whose theoretical weight is 866 kg.

To lift one end, with the other resting on the ground, an upward force of 433 kg is required.

Therefore, in order to remove the tent, with 10 men, each one must be able to lift 43.3 kg, while the eleventh man removes the more or less damaged tent.

[Manti]

Did the Mansi consume canned milk?

After all, their skis, and a bear hide, were found near the cedar. I wonder if they could have left the can, too... After all, they used firearms so they weren't completely avoiding modern technology and products.

[Ziljoe]

So this is what remains of the tree that fell on the tent.

No, this is what would remain of the tree that allegedly fell on the tent according to Teddy's theory. But you didn't understand anything about her theory. She says that four conspirators thought that there was enough evidence at Kolyat Syakhl to incriminate them and that they decided to relocate the tent and the labaz in order to cover up this evidence.

But the evidence was so thin that they could not afford to leave even a Belomorkanal on the site, otherwise the balance of evidence would be in their disfavor. They had to bring less evidence than they removed, or the operation was not worth the effort. Therefore, the main work was quality control. They were not working mainly just to lift the tree, but to lift the tree with a balance "removing evidence/adding evidence" which was negative: less evidence after intervention than before. That is to say with 0% risk, with 0% possibility of creating new and extra evidence. And that's why they had to process only one task at a time, under the watch of observers checking that the workers were not dropping any tools or personal belongings in the snow. If they didn't act with such a paranoid care, the relocation was useless and not worth the effort. They could not afford to lose or destroy items belonging to the hikers, nor to add items belonging to the workers, on the site. They could not afford to interrupt a task because of the night and finish it the next day, after sleep, they had to complete any task at daylight, and consider this task as clean, secured and closed, having left no extra evidence, not having polluted the site in the slightest way, before to begin the following task.

And that's why Teddy had to write that the decision to relocate the tent and labaz was taken by drunk men : "On their next drunken get-together, Sulman, Ivanov, Prodanov and Shestopalov decide that the blasting in the area caused the fall of the tree in violation of safety requirements." Because it would be like hiring a backhoe to remove a feather... it would be 0.1% manpower and 99.9% quality control.

I agree with Charles on this. One of the problems I have with any outsiders being involved would be the logistics of any cover up.  They would have to cover up so much that it would be an extraordinary effort.

Also ....why would any outsiders leave undeveloped film in the camera's. Any outsider or organised trained group would not know what was in the film. If the loggers were in the area, helicopters ,, ,men following them or if the hikers stumbled on something they shouldn't have,  then no one would know if there was incriminating evidence on the camera film?  Why take the risk ?

The Mansi were in the area , so any people staging anything, wouldn't know if they were being watched ?

[Ziljoe]

Futher more, now I'm thinking about it.

If it was staged or murder , why not make it look like one of the hikers managed to take one backpack with the cameras and diaries. Make them look like they used the diary paper to start a fire and dump the rucksack with cameras in the water? It would help eliminate any possibility of outsiders being found out and still imply the same narrative of avalanches etc. ? As Charles suggests, they couldn't afford to leave a packet of cigarettes lying around.

[GlennM]

It makes no practical sense to assume they the hikers, camp in the woods, get crushed by someone`s goof and the have the perpetrator's damage control team NOT set the tent up a mile or so away IN THE WOODS on the way to Ortoten. It is unimaginative to move the tent almost a mile uphill out the woods and leave the bodies below where or near where the mishap occurred. On the other hand, if the hikers actually camped at elevation 880 on 1079 and suffered a natural event such as a slab slip, then everything that followed requires no additional explanation. Wrong place, wrong time. Too dark, too cold, too windy and too far to relative safety. If a conspiracy is more satisfactory then I encourage the investigators not to follow clues from the location, but to follow the money! Someone got paid.  Look for written evidence from tissue samples, Look for deathbed confessions. Look for and follow the paper trail. It will generate facts. What we do is speculate in the hope of generating some compelling line of inquiry. The people whom actually come with the cash and physically explore,,like Teddy, have their well formed ideas.

[Ziljoe]

It makes no practical sense to assume they the hikers, camp in the woods, get crushed by someone`s goof and the have the perpetrator's damage control team NOT set the tent up a mile or so away IN THE WOODS on the way to Ortoten. It is unimaginative to move the tent almost a mile uphill out the woods and leave the bodies below where or near where the mishap occurred. On the other hand, if the hikers actually camped at elevation 880 on 1079 and suffered a natural event such as a slab slip, then everything that followed requires no additional explanation. Wrong place, wrong time. Too dark, too cold, too windy and too far to relative safety. If a conspiracy is more satisfactory then I encourage the investigators not to follow clues from the location, but to follow the money! Someone got paid.  Look for written evidence from tissue samples, Look for deathbed confessions. Look for and follow the paper trail. It will generate facts. What we do is speculate in the hope of generating some compelling line of inquiry. The people whom actually come with the cash and physically explore,,like Teddy, have their well formed ideas.

Hi GlennM
I don't understand what you are implying ?

Could you expand?

[GlennM]

Hi Ziljoe! My latest post was meant to address three things. First, I contend that if a crime against the hikers was perpetrated while they camped in the woods, it makes no sense to me to move evidence out of the woods. The tent was found by the rescuers on a barren slope. It should have been somewhere down in the trees, just farther along the trail. Therefore, I think the tent never was in the woods when tragedy struck. Too, murderers don't leave corpses around.

My second thought is that if there is a conspiracy/coverup, there will be money involved. Someone got paid. There will be something written. There are tissue sample reports not found.. It is tedious and unexciting work to follow these leads, but if indeed there were bad actors, there will also be records. Follow the money.

Finally, for all of our sleuthing, those who actually pay and travel to the site already have their own working hypotheses that may be aligned with our ideas.

This does not diminish our interest and sincerity. Indeed, some members become so overwrought as to become abusive, as we have sadly seen. I think the best outcome for any of us who can not be there of scour the physical location, the archives and bank records is to someday say, "Hey, I was right about this all along!"

What is your take on this mystery in summary?

[Ziljoe]

Hi Ziljoe! My latest post was meant to address three things. First, I contend that if a crime against the hikers was perpetrated while they camped in the woods, it makes no sense to me to move evidence out of the woods. The tent was found by the rescuers on a barren slope. It should have been somewhere down in the trees, just farther along the trail. Therefore, I think the tent never was in the woods when tragedy struck. Too, murderers don't leave corpses around.

My second thought is that if there is a conspiracy/coverup, there will be money involved. Someone got paid. There will be something written. There are tissue sample reports not found.. It is tedious and unexciting work to follow these leads, but if indeed there were bad actors, there will also be records. Follow the money.

Finally, for all of our sleuthing, those who actually pay and travel to the site already have their own working hypotheses that may be aligned with our ideas.

This does not diminish our interest and sincerity. Indeed, some members become so overwrought as to become abusive, as we have sadly seen. I think the best outcome for any of us who can not be there of scour the physical location, the archives and bank records is to someday say, "Hey, I was right about this all along!"

What is your take on this mystery in summary?

Hi GlennM,

I think i agree with you on the whole.

Personally , after much thought ,I believe that something happened on the slope/ mountain side. Something
simple . Like the Wolverine/snowslide. If it was outsiders , it would be much tighter, if that makes sense. The powers that were in place would have made it out to be this or that. There would be no speculation.