November 23, 2024, 05:17:25 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: They would of if they could of.  (Read 12158 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

February 16, 2020, 02:06:32 PM
Read 12158 times
Offline

Tim


What photos are you having trouble with. The two photos of them setting up the tent with plenty of snow that the back packs and skis are stuck into was which had been snowing since the beginning of winter in Russia is Dec 22nd.
AOr the photos of the rescuers kneeling down next to the tent with the weather currents etched into the surface of the snow thàt has leveled out the area where they found the tent.?  If you honestly think they are equally proportionate .read no further.
The decision to leave the labaz so late up the side of the mountain in a near white out was met with anger from some of the group. Igor is in charge of this expedition and makes his case and wins out.
We know they are uncertain of there position on the mountain  or they would of easily made the down trip to the forest. They also would of not  known the angle of the mountain to know an avalanche is unlikely.
Fortunately and unfortunately they find a rock ridge in which to nestle the tent up against. After the tent is set up any mountaineer would build a snow wall around the base of the tent (Ground Level) which Ananmanki points out. The upper level of the rock ridge has an abundance of snow which they take advantage of and build up a snow mound/ not a conventional wall to keep the winds off the top of the tent. This two tent ,sewn together to become one was never intended for the slopes and easily could be ripped open by the higher winds that are picking up. The last person in is on the upper ridge securing the wall and decides to go to the bathroom or not, He has to turn his back against the wind because there are no trees. When you got to go you got to go. When finished, this person accidently dislodges the wall when walking back and falls himself onto the tent. Only one person was found wearing boots. Because of the high swirling winds and the panic inside the tent, they think the person outside was also caught up in an avalanche.
Inside the tent they are blind sided and pushed up against the tent wall. They immediately think avalanche and Zina takes a direct hit on they side and the others with head injuries
They rightfully cut themselves out and through the snow wall. When they are out the snow on the uncut side of the tent covers their gloves, boots and jackets.
They are now in the deadliest weather without their protection. They now have two layers of snow to dig through without gloves and this proves impossible and they even break a ski poles trying to get their gear,
With lightning fast speed the two Yuri's sprint as fast as they can to warm themselves up and to start a fire ahead of the group who are Fighting against the winds that are ripping at their faces.
The two Yuri's cannot believe how close they were to the forest .
Once the others arrive someone starts to fight because of the decision to leave.
They are now around the fire and are running on adrenaline thinking they are warm enough and actually come up with a plan . The Swedish team makes the fantastic observation that Luda and the other three actually were able to dig out a snow cave which led them to believe that a cave in happened here as well. Luda just entering the cave as it collapsed. She could of been talking to one of the Yuri's up above looking for firewood when he stepped on the top of the snow cave loosing it enough to have it cave in later. The odds of two accidental cave in is pushing the limits but can't be ruled out. Zina, Igor and Rustem are not thinking clearly because their vitals are shutting down and actually think they can climb back up to the tent for supplies. Zinas thumb is in-between here first and index fingers. The thumb to keep warm would be covered by the whole palm not sticking out. Was this a superstitious act we will never know. 
The human body in all it's glory unless blood pumping and oxygen filling lungs turns to mush when exposed to the harshist weather imaginable.
The medical examiners were getting false positives in their examination. God Bless the Dyatov group and there families..
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 05:30:36 AM by Tim »
 

February 16, 2020, 11:20:48 PM
Reply #1
Offline

NkZ


May i have 2 questions:
+ if we look at pictures of the way the tent is set up, it  has a net of ropes going from fabric to poles that extent something like 1,5 to 2 meters from the tent. If they built a snow wall, would i be between these poles and tent or further? in both cases, why would someone make a pee on the windy and exposed side -with the risk of having it fly to the tent- and so close to the tent as to risk being caught in the ropes while walking ?
+ if it happened like you say, why wouldn't the one who fell on the tent and had the snow wall collapse not tell the others what happened. instead on allowing everyone to believe it's an avalanche?
best regards, NkZ
 

February 17, 2020, 03:09:35 AM
Reply #2
Offline

Tim


Thank You for those questions, they are correct and I have already modified my theory more clearly because of it.  There are two elevations, The lower elevation the tent is sitting on has a snow wall around the base of the tent in between the supports which Ananmanki correctly points out to keep wind gust from getting underneath. The upper elevation has an abundance of snow and they use this snow to pile up as much snow for added protection. This is not a conventional snow wall, this is more of a snow mound which they compact which hardens. what they could not know is the snow above was already unstable and building on it didn't help. The person peeing was on the upper level helping to secure this snow mound/wall.  Because there are no trees he has to turn his back against the wind to pee, When you got to go you got to go. This person slips or walks and dislodges this upper mound sending himself onto the group. because there was urine in the snow when they found the tent, I only speculate he was going to the bathroom he may have just slipped on the way in. In any event there was only one person found with boots on....
 

February 17, 2020, 03:25:06 AM
Reply #3
Offline

Tim


Two elevations, The snow mound/wall collapsed from the upper elevation.  For some reason very few people get this which is more than bizarre.

 

February 17, 2020, 03:28:23 AM
Reply #4
Offline

Tim


Sorry for the crude drawing.

 

February 17, 2020, 03:55:39 AM
Reply #5
Offline

Tim


« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 10:22:43 AM by Tim »
 

February 17, 2020, 04:12:26 AM
Reply #6
Offline

Tim


The next to gale force winds combined with the panic and no doubt screaming from the inside made impossible for any communications from the outside to the inside. By the time the person who had caused the collapse could stand up, the other men instinctively cut their way out instead of trying to communicate. No one knew exactly where the person outside was and the person outside may have been caught in the avalanche as well. In any event the man outside could not remove the snow fast enough to keep them calm on the inside. They are injured and once they are out and now realize what had happened . They are now at the mercy of the sub zero weather in swirling winds and their hands are already starting to freeze. (We as humans cannot grasp the extraordinary danger they are in, we think it is a normal winter day even though we know its not). They realize they need to keep moving to keep their vitals warm. Exposed skin to the conditions they were in,let alone touch the snow can not be over emphasized.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2020, 06:51:04 AM by Tim »
 

February 17, 2020, 10:48:36 AM
Reply #7
Offline

MDGross


Tim, I'm in agreement with you up to a point. We differ though in that I don't think they had enough energy to build two snow walls or even one. They hiked in blizzard conditions a mile up the mountain slope. Then dug a trench in which to set the tent. Surely they were exhausted by now and the light was failing. The trench itself acted as a now den. When lying down, they would be below the ground level of the snow. In the photo of the tent from Feb. 26, the top of the tent is above ground level and covered by only a few inches of snow. To me, Atmanaki seemed to say that as they dug the trench they simply threw snow all around. I know that in his eyewitness account, he says something about the snow being "stacked." But this could be a poor translation. The word in Russian probably has multiple meanings.  In my way of thinking (which is speculative at best), the hikers mistakenly believed that a snow slab or avalanche was rushing their way. No time to dress properly, just get out of the tent. By now the wind has reached gale-force intensity. Night and the curtain of blowing snow made it impossible to see anything. Head down from the slope and try somehow to survive until daylight.
 

February 17, 2020, 12:59:27 PM
Reply #8
Offline

Tim


Excellent observations, Amanaki points out a standard practice even in the forest to stop any breeze from getting in.
It was a perfect location for them but the winds progressed as night fell. These 21 year old has some time to rest in their decent to the ridge. But these Russian kids were wirey and solid. No stranger to hard work. Let me be more clear. They had no choice in using the upper ledge to build a snow mound. How, simple, we as kids would sit down and with our feet pile up as much snow as we needed . They compacted it and fashioned it the best they could. Then the last one to work on it dislodged it .The bank discintergrated when hitting them. Not before the damage was done. Then was blown away as shown in the rescuers photo.  In short they think avalanche and the person outside was taken with it. Only to find what has really happened...They made the decision to retreat to the forest within one minute. The proof is that they actually made it dressed the way they were..The man who dislodged it was wearing the only boots.
 When one uses Voltare to divide his theory with the  question why would they leave, now and until eternity would a mountaineer cut his tent from the inside...to extracate oneself from beneath something that has fallen on you.  Here is a great Yeti joke, How do you know when a Yeti is inside a tent with you? You can smell the berries on its breath...lastly where would someone run too up here?
In a forest heck yes....I love your feed back.
 

February 17, 2020, 01:47:32 PM
Reply #9
Offline

MDGross


I commend you on the thought you've put into this scenario. And kudos for your illustrations. If they were built, I'm not sure the two snow walls would include enough snow to fracture a skull and bury the tent to such an extent to cause great fear in the hikers. Your theory is compelling though and provides an explanation why the hikers were so panicked as they cut their way out of the tent. I think we in this forum and many others are looking for some sense of closure. For us and the nine courageous souls who fought so courageously to the end.
By the way, under the Freedom of Information Act,  I've emailed a couple of government agencies enquiring if they have any findings from 1959. I probably have .001% for any success, but why not ask? (I will be billed $25 an hour for any research they do!)
 

February 18, 2020, 02:58:03 AM
Reply #10
Offline

Tim


MD Gross, thank you for the kind words, the animation is amateur at best,
Here is what I know living in the snow for 17 years, forgive me if I'm repeating myself. The snow pact is the constant layering of snow melted by the sun then freezing again. Over time this ice pack becomes very heavy and fractures causing avalanches if conditions are right or a skier dislodges it. What I cant what cant rule out is your excellent observation, could it be heavy enough to cause injury? Probably not. Was it heavy enough to stun and cover the tent and the team members. Yes, I have fallen through the ceiling raters after stepping on a piece  of blocking that had a large knot in it. I hit a such a rate of speed there was no time to react. In the Dyatlov case the last person making their way into the tent,(wearing boots) fell himself at a very high rate of speed and easily could of kicked one other team members in the head pushing others into each other and up against the inside of the tent. Like a whip the final crack is around 700 miles an hour. The same principles apply here easily though not as fast.
Indulge me in an experiment, Lets pretend that there are Two Dyatlov groups and they are equipped with modern night vision goggles with zoom action. The first Dyatlov group stands at the ridge side by side looking down at the Dyatlov group at the forest edge. The Dyatlov group at the Forest standing side by are now instructed to look up at the Dyatlov group at the rock ledge. The weather is identical but because this is a test they are not effected by the sub freezing weather. They are both instructed to watch their counter parts, and write down  any unusual activity going on around them. .   At day break they get together to compare their results.  They are laughing because they are seeing their double,  but when comparing notes they find that they are the same.  Both of their note pages are blank. If the Dyatlov group at the forest knew the fate of the Dyatlov group  on the ridge they would of stopped them at the Labaz before they had a chance to interact with a mountain and elements they were not prepared for. The point of the test is to show that the weather and mountains were not responsible for their deaths, poor decision making and lack of experience killed these young people.  That combined with many false positives by the medical examiner pushed this event right into the twilight zone.
I am intrigued about your looking into any public information about this case. I think you may just hit the mother load ,there is something somewhere that can of use.  Thanks for reading my silly test..Best Tim    PS, I would love to see the route from the labaz up the mountain and down to the ridge in different weather conditions.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 07:08:09 AM by Tim »
 

February 18, 2020, 11:35:36 AM
Reply #11
Offline

MDGross


If I understand your scenario correctly, one of the hikers slipped and fell into a snow wall causing it to fall. Then the hiker and snow hit the second snow wall causing it to fall and it all ended up covering the tent. So if the hiker didn't fall in the first place, would the walls and tent survived the night okay? If that's the case, then Dyatlov's and/or the group's decision making was sound.
The autopsies seemed rushed which could certainly result in mistakes. It's also possible that important discoveries were never made public. The possibilities that explain the tragic event and the aftermath are too numerous to imagine. It's maddening.
 

February 18, 2020, 12:25:16 PM
Reply #12
Offline

NkZ


1 more question. If you have solid winter mountain experience and there is -or you suspect there could be soon- an avalanche, do you run onwards on the axis of the avalanche corridor or do you go sideways to get as far as possible out of that corridor?
 

February 18, 2020, 01:16:44 PM
Reply #13
Offline

Tim


Quite madding indeed, You are close in understanding my approach,  The snow wall at the base of the tent had no part in covering the tent , only the upper level that are holding the back packs and skis.
I have two theories, either the snow pack was heavy enough, fractured and slid into to them which means the man wearing boots had just entered the tent. Or like I have in my diagram that person accidentally fell causing the snow barrier and himself to fall into the group.
In life all decisions are good decisions until something bad happens.  Igor knew how far they could travel in one day.  Was Igor a forward thinker? Did he have a plan if someone on the way up slipped and broke their leg? Did he have rope to lower someone down if that should happen. How would he be graded if he survived?  No doubt he would of been on cloud nine but the teacher would of admonished him severely for his unclear thinking by putting himself and the others at unnecessary risk especially Zina. They did not have to ascend they could of easily hung back out at the labaz. No doubt he met with opposition about to leave so late and may have gotten punched in the face when they arrived by the fire for not listening to reason..In the end the ungodly weather devoured them up. How many times people have survived to within  an inch of their life and never knew it.
In the end I believe there was a fair amount of snow on the tent to stop them from retrieving their belongins. Compounded by, some still are worried about being buried alive if they do try. The teacher would write. Never risk the lives of others venturing into the unknown...it's nutty for sure. Lol
 

February 18, 2020, 04:26:53 PM
Reply #14
Offline

Tim


Great question about in which way to run in an avalanche, like a rip ride you swim out of and the avalanche you run sideways. The Dyatlov group  would not have enough time to react when they felt an avalanche coming  The winds were to loud for them to of heard it.
When the snow mound slipped from above it sealed them out. Now, they are  way over exposed they cannot get the snow off the tent fast enough before the weather starts to kill them.
The two Yuri's run ahead to start a fire while the rest fight the gale force winds.. Everyone suffered terrible..