The Autopsies

[ElizabethHarris]

Bigfoot theories are huge in USA. The Russian Yeti is even more interesting to us! A lot of docs about Bigfoot do talk about other strange events that accompany sightings and have theorized that Bigfoot/aliens are related. We are very big on Middle Earth theories and alien conspiracies etc. 

[GlennM]

What is missing at autopsy is telling. No residue from collision with a tree branch, no bullet from a gun, no foam, no poison in the system, no ligature marks,  no beatings on the back. Everything can be explained be natural causes. Even the radiation was far less than lethal and readily explained.

[sarapuk]

What is missing at autopsy is telling. No residue from collision with a tree branch, no bullet from a gun, no foam, no poison in the system, no ligature marks,  no beatings on the back. Everything can be explained be natural causes. Even the radiation was far less than lethal and readily explained.

Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina. When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy. Those geiger counters they used were not the sensitive ones often used these days. They were the military type designed to detect radiation fallout after a nuclear explosion.

[Игорь Б.]

Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.

Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.

Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621

[GlennM]

I am leery of getting the story conflated in the retelling. There are certain injuries that are unique enough to be easily called out. As an example, in the days before collapsible steering wheels and seat belts, fractured rib cages of steering columns through the chest were easily identifiable. Gunshot residue is another. The coroner's report does not conclude that an injury was a falling branch fracture or anything specific. I think the comments on this thread are very good and thoughtful. The upshot was that the presumption was death by freezing, death from trauma  from a fall and deterioration of the body from exposure to scavengers and natural decomposition. The how of their deaths gets us no closer to the why of their deaths. Natural causes do not need a why, people do. Thoughts?

[sarapuk]

Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.

Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.

Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621

You post an article that shows a body that has presumably been submerged in the water a long time and in a mild conditions. That is not the case with Dubinina. Also you post an article about radiation but it doesnt mention that the searchers used geiger counters of a military type and that they went off the scale at the scene of the Dyatlov incident.

[sarapuk]

I am leery of getting the story conflated in the retelling. There are certain injuries that are unique enough to be easily called out. As an example, in the days before collapsible steering wheels and seat belts, fractured rib cages of steering columns through the chest were easily identifiable. Gunshot residue is another. The coroner's report does not conclude that an injury was a falling branch fracture or anything specific. I think the comments on this thread are very good and thoughtful. The upshot was that the presumption was death by freezing, death from trauma  from a fall and deterioration of the body from exposure to scavengers and natural decomposition. The how of their deaths gets us no closer to the why of their deaths. Natural causes do not need a why, people do. Thoughts?

Well I think most investigators will agree that the autopsies leave a lot to be desired. Yes death by freezing and certain injuries appears most obvious. But the autopsies leave us wanting. Wanting to know more. Just like so many aspects in this Dyatlov case we are missing important information / evidence.

[GlennM]

Sarapuk another good analysis, If the autopsies were wanting, it could mean several things. Perhaps the most obvious conclusion is that from a forensic point of view, there was nothing remarkable about the findings. Put in other terms, the autopsies did not trigger police action. If the autopsies were part of a conspiracy, then do we follow the money. Where does it lead? If the autopsies are wanting by today's standards, then it is lost to time. The real value of asking these questions that "how" questions lead to more results than "why" questions.

[Ziljoe]

Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.

Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.

Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621

You post an article that shows a body that has presumably been submerged in the water a long time and in a mild conditions. That is not the case with Dubinina. Also you post an article about radiation but it doesnt mention that the searchers used geiger counters of a military type and that they went off the scale at the scene of the Dyatlov incident.

Parts of the bodies were under water. It does state this . Dubinina had a lot of decomposition . This can be seen from the autopsy photos.

I think Igor b argument is,  if there was lots of radiation , the clothes and belongings would have not have been returned to the families.

I could be wrong.

[Manti]

I have seen no record saying that geiger counters were used in the search let alone that they went off the scale.

The actual radiation found on the clothes is minor and not a harmful amount. I have my own theory about how it got there... it's irrelevant to the case though.

In case anyone else is an xkcd fan, here's a recent one that seems relevant to the thread: https://xkcd.com/2573/

[GlennM]

Manti, do you recall that the Barney/Betty Hill UFO abduction story occurred a couple of years after the hikers died? The Hill couple were both deluded and profit minded. It is a sign of the cultural times that conspiracy, radiation, nuclear energy, rockets, lights in the sky and government cover up are part of the 1959 post mortem hoopla.  A mundane explanation for an extraordinary lapse of group wisdom is the likely answer in my opinion. The group did all the right things, by the book for the right reasons, but Nature threw them a curve ball of shaky ground, crazy cold, wind and cold food.  As the saying goes, they could run, but they couldn't hide from Nature.Comments?

[sarapuk]

Nothing natural about the missing eyes or tongue of Dubinina.

Неужели?
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61104
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64056

When the search parties arrived at the location of the incident it was reported that the geiger counters went crazy.

Это миф, выдуманный недобросовестными сочинителями. Опровергнуть высокий уровень радиации проще простого:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=111621

You post an article that shows a body that has presumably been submerged in the water a long time and in a mild conditions. That is not the case with Dubinina. Also you post an article about radiation but it doesnt mention that the searchers used geiger counters of a military type and that they went off the scale at the scene of the Dyatlov incident.

Parts of the bodies were under water. It does state this . Dubinina had a lot of decomposition . This can be seen from the autopsy photos.

I think Igor b argument is,  if there was lots of radiation , the clothes and belongings would have not have been returned to the families.

I could be wrong.

It was too cold for decomposition of the type that is often seen on bodies in water in milder conditions. What type of radiation are we dealing with.

[sarapuk]

I have seen no record saying that geiger counters were used in the search let alone that they went off the scale.

The actual radiation found on the clothes is minor and not a harmful amount. I have my own theory about how it got there... it's irrelevant to the case though.

In case anyone else is an xkcd fan, here's a recent one that seems relevant to the thread: https://xkcd.com/2573/

Well you need to read all thats on the website Dyatlovpass.com

[sarapuk]

Manti, do you recall that the Barney/Betty Hill UFO abduction story occurred a couple of years after the hikers died? The Hill couple were both deluded and profit minded. It is a sign of the cultural times that conspiracy, radiation, nuclear energy, rockets, lights in the sky and government cover up are part of the 1959 post mortem hoopla.  A mundane explanation for an extraordinary lapse of group wisdom is the likely answer in my opinion. The group did all the right things, by the book for the right reasons, but Nature threw them a curve ball of shaky ground, crazy cold, wind and cold food.  As the saying goes, they could run, but they couldn't hide from Nature.Comments?

Comments ? Yes. Lights in the sky were observed in the area in question. They have been observed many times in that area. Radiation was detected in the area of the incident.

[Игорь Б.]

It was too cold for decomposition of the type that is often seen on bodies in water in milder conditions.

Пресная вода всегда имеет плюсовую температуру. При плюсовой температуре мясо портится.

Radiation was detected in the area of the incident.

На месте происшествия не было никакой радиации, кроме солнечной.

[GlennM]

Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?

[sarapuk]

It was too cold for decomposition of the type that is often seen on bodies in water in milder conditions.

Пресная вода всегда имеет плюсовую температуру. При плюсовой температуре мясо портится.

Radiation was detected in the area of the incident.

На месте происшествия не было никакой радиации, кроме солнечной.

Doesnt answer anything. Just speculations.

[sarapuk]

Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?

Comments. Yes. The Autopsies left a lot to be desired. There appears to be missing information. Radiation may not have been lethal but something caused the Geiger Counters to go off the scale.

[Ziljoe]

Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?

Comments. Yes. The Autopsies left a lot to be desired. There appears to be missing information. Radiation may not have been lethal but something caused the Geiger Counters to go off the scale.

Where did the Geiger counter go off the scale? I can't find this information. If you can point me in the direction where it says that I'd appreciate it sarapuk. I did hear something like that when I was first introduced to the DP mystery but I can't find anything official.

[GlennM]

I recommend the readers search out "blast lung" and blast injuries. See if it related well to injured hikers. Also, determine if a blast injury does or does not bruise the skin.

[Ziljoe]

Think it's been looked at in detail in older threads glennm

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, thanks. The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, thanks. The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.

I'm split between two houses, that's Teddy's new approach by documents and Igor b's . What's interesting about Igor B's explanation is the details of where the bodies were found and the condition , injuries etc. In fact you could take Igor's explanation and swap the trigger for the evacuation of the tent and it still covers the injuries. He explains with much better forensic detail if that's the right phrase.

The lack of detail in the case files could come from the fact no one really cared to look at as a murder or strange event. Students are found frozen on a long hike , it happens.

[Manti]

I think Igor B's theory would benefit from an English translation and all of these explanations being collected in one place. As far as I know it's currently over on an other forum spanning thousands of posts.

I have read several pages but never found the part that explains the injuries... also there are 7000 posts(?) in that thread and some are Russian memes, etc. Very hard to untangle.

The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.

To me, Occam's razor says that it can't be a fall. People who fall end up landing on one of their extremities, and break their legs, arms, head. It's very hard to fall on your chest (and not break your head). The probability of this happening to two people.. practically zero. Something falling on them however, much better explanation.

That said I'm not necessarily in favor of the tree fall theory, because who lifted the tree then? It also doesn't explain why those who weren't injured by the tree all died. Maybe I'm thinking about this incident in an different way than others... but the very fact that they all died, in proximity, and at around the same time, is a very unusual circumstance. Cold affects people differently, depending on amount of body fat (varies by gender), how they are dressed, etc. Occam's razor says some of them should have survived or at least survived for much longer than others, and it was cold, the instinctive thing to do is to keep moving. Some should have been found miles and miles away. In the Auspiya valley looking for the labaz, or looking for the Mansi hut they passed. Or even further.

[Ziljoe]

I think Igor B's theory would benefit from an English translation and all of these explanations being collected in one place. As far as I know it's currently over on an other forum spanning thousands of posts.

I have read several pages but never found the part that explains the injuries... also there are 7000 posts(?) in that thread and some are Russian memes, etc. Very hard to untangle.

The lead goes nowhere. Occams razor is best. No blast, just unprotected falls explain injuries.

To me, Occam's razor says that it can't be a fall. People who fall end up landing on one of their extremities, and break their legs, arms, head. It's very hard to fall on your chest (and not break your head). The probability of this happening to two people.. practically zero. Something falling on them however, much better explanation.

That said I'm not necessarily in favor of the tree fall theory, because who lifted the tree then? It also doesn't explain why those who weren't injured by the tree all died. Maybe I'm thinking about this incident in an different way than others... but the very fact that they all died, in proximity, and at around the same time, is a very unusual circumstance. Cold affects people differently, depending on amount of body fat (varies by gender), how they are dressed, etc. Occam's razor says some of them should have survived or at least survived for much longer than others, and it was cold, the instinctive thing to do is to keep moving. Some should have been found miles and miles away. In the Auspiya valley looking for the labaz, or looking for the Mansi hut they passed. Or even further.

I agree with you Manti. Igor b's theory could do with being translated. I don't have a problem with translating from my phone to numerous sites, don't know why it an issue for others. I look at any site and it automatically changes it to English.

Anyway , I do think the detail in Igor b's is important. Especially the nature of how all the bodies were found and the injuries.

I believe he's ok with me translating his evidence but there is a lot. I respect his work and approach as I do teddy's. For me , they are the two most interesting and plausible explanations . For anyone that reads this post I would strongly recommend that they look into both.

[sarapuk]

Sarapuk, you are right, there were lights in the sky. I used to think that the hikers were scared by Soviet aircraft, then rockets. The problem is that there were two hiking groups up there. The other group Blenov? did nothing to support the idea that Dyatlov's group was scared from aircraft or explosions of any sort. Too, we recall that the radiation has been determined to be far below hazardous levels. I have to believe the hikers were scanned either because uranium was being prospected. That is unlikely. I think it is more likely that it was just a sign of the times. Everybody had atomic energy on their mind back then. Remember Godzilla movies? The creature was a product of the A bomb. The fear was world wide. As far as decomposed bodies goes, we see the difference between freezing in ice and freezing by running water. A piece of meat thawed in water will eventually spoil. Frozen meat keeps for years. What drove them out if their tent? Fear. If it was fear of Man, follow the money. If it was fear of Nature, an anticipated snow slip precipitated by a ground tremor makes sense. Comments?

Comments. Yes. The Autopsies left a lot to be desired. There appears to be missing information. Radiation may not have been lethal but something caused the Geiger Counters to go off the scale.

Where did the Geiger counter go off the scale? I can't find this information. If you can point me in the direction where it says that I'd appreciate it sarapuk. I did hear something like that when I was first introduced to the DP mystery but I can't find anything official.

You need to read all the case files etc. This as been mentioned before but I cant remember where in the Forum.

[sarapuk]

I recommend the readers search out "blast lung" and blast injuries. See if it related well to injured hikers. Also, determine if a blast injury does or does not bruise the skin.

Its been dealt with before in this Forum.

[GlennM]

And not resolved, I think.

[sarapuk]

And not resolved, I think.

What is resolved. The mystery continues. We lack evidence.