Anti-gravitational rigor mortis

[amashilu]

I don't want to repeat something that has already been addressed, so please let me know if I'm just missing where this has been discussed, and I'll back out of this topic.

The bodies of Igor Dyatlov and Lyudmila Dubinina have what is called "anti-gravitational rigor mortis," which means that their bodies did not behave in a naturally limp manner after death. In the article which is referenced on the dyatlovpass.com site (https://www.pathologyoutlines.com/topic/forensicspostmortem.html), the authors state that "inappropriate or antigravitational rigor mortis can indicate that a body has been moved once rigor mortis has been fully fixed and the body is discovered prior to full dissipation of rigor mortis (Int J Appl Basic Med Res 2011;1:120)" and other sites I checked also say that anti-gravitational rigor mortis is an indication that the body was moved after death.

Below are 2 photos of Dyatlov as he was found. Following those 2 is a photo from the scientific website referenced above, demonstrating what is meant by "anti gravitational rigor mortis."

Lyuda appears to be upright, with her arms up.

Are there any clues as to how these bodies maintained such anti-gravitational postures after death? Other than that the bodies were moved, I cannot think of anything. Igor's posture looks to me like someone grabbed him by the arms after death and pulled him along.

But Lyuda's, I cannot figure out at all.

[Игорь Б.]

Тело Дубининой сползло с уступа, когда под ним вымыло снег и тело, перевернувшись упало в ручей:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=52624

Поза Дятлова типична для смерти от переохлаждения:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=87642

[Manti]

Igor was found clutching sort of hugging a branch. Maybe his clothing also got stuck on it and therefore held up his arms.

Lyuda was found with her head and arms on a stone ledge effectively. So I think maybe this can explain the position.

However, it's hard to see how she would come to be in that position in the first place... she was facing uphill and the snow was melting for some time, I would think constantly shifting the bodies downhill (like a mini-glacier). 

[amashilu]

I've also heard others say that Dyatlov was holding a branch, but I don't see this in any official report and I don't see this in the photo taken of his body when it was found. Can you cite where you got this information? Thanks.

[Ziljoe]

The photos of Dyatlov following this one show a few branches in the area of his arms. I believe it is quoted from some other person with a bit of artistic license.

The myths of the information surrounding this case has caused confusion and it continues. 

[Игорь Б.]

Левая рука в локте опирается на ветку березы.

The left arm rests at the elbow on a birch branch.

Sheet 4, back
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-3-6?rbid=17743

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Тело Дубининой сползло с уступа, когда под ним вымыло снег и тело, перевернувшись упало в ручей:

No way she could have slid in such a position from the above. It is absolutely impossible. Either she crawled to that position kneeling against the bedrock or she was dragged to it by someone. Have you seen her feet? Her feet dragged behind, it is absolutely obvious, there is no doubt, no question about it.  Or either both her ankles were completely broken, but even if broken, it was impossible.



She could not get to such a position moving backwards.

And there is an extremely low probability that given all her ribs broken she could have crawled by herself against the bedrock and lift her arms in that position. Therefore she was dragged by someone. And the left part of her sweater tells us that this someone grabbed the sweater to pull her.

There is no mention of broken ankles , what's your point Charles?

[Игорь Б.]

And the left part of her sweater tells us that this someone grabbed the sweater to pull her.

Левая задравшаяся часть свитера говорит о том, что тело сползло вниз с уступа.
Для справки - высота этого уступа 80 см.

P.S. По положению тела Дубининой была установлена причина обрушения снежного укрытия:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=78905

Обрушение снежного укрытия доказано радиограммой Ортюкова:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=64055

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[amashilu]

I agree with Charles; a person in Lyuda's condition, with broken ribs, could not climb into this strange position, arms up, on her knees with feet dragging, while in the throes of dying. In other places, it is said that she was lying flat on the ground when her ribs were compressed hard enough to fracture them, and that she died about 10 minutes later, as one of the broken ribs pierced her heart. And with a pierced and gushing heart, she got to her knees, put her arms up, and leaned over a ridge? I also notice in the autopsy report that she had "extraordinary mobility" of the thyroid, which can indicate a strangulation or near-strangulation; "extraordinary" definitely indicates something was pressing on her thyroid (neck) area.
As I said in the earlier message, Dyatlov's arms also indicate someone grabbed him by the elbows and pulled him. The two at the cedar tree also show this "moved after death," but this could be their friends, who took their clothes and kindly repositioned them.
I think Lyuda's body shows the most clues of what happened.

[amashilu]

There are small branches behind Dyatlov's body, but he does not appear to be holding anything.

[Manti]

Sorry my word "clutching" is not the right one.. But if you look at this last picture, the position of his arms don't look unnatural. I think his left elbow is supported by the branch or stuck to smaller branches growing from it.

Which could explain why it didn't drop to the ground and hence the 'antigravitational rigor mortis'

[Manti]

She could not get to such a position moving backwards.

Yes I agree. And another strange thing about this photo, is that we read that the "ravine 4" were found under several metres of snow? But here on the right side next to the stream, you can see a layer of snow that is about 5 cm thick. Or is this just somehow an artefact of the old photo?

[amashilu]

I agree. Everything about her "discovery" and body positioning is wrong. How could her clothes look like this if they were buried under meters of snow for three months?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Игорь Б.]

Cher Igor, est-ce que vous ne pouvez pas traduire vous-même ce que vous avez à dire dans une langue intelligible par votre interlocuteur ? Pourquoi postez-vous des messages si cela vous égal d'être compris ou pas ? Il y a une langue commune de travail qui est l'anglais, en usage partout et ici même. Et il y a des outils de traduction en ligne accessibles à tous. Pour ma part, je ne ferai plus l'effort de les utiliser pour traduire à votre place les réponses que vous postez. Vous êtes gentil, cher ami des mouffettes, mais la communication implique un minimum de réciprocité. Bien à vous, Charles.

Это наше, русское происшествие и я буду писать по-русски, как и дятловцы. Хотите читайте, хотите нет.

[Ziljoe]

Hi Charles,

How do we know they died on top of the bedrock?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

Hi Charles,

 How did they get to the bed rock with all the snow to break the ribs?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Игорь Б.]

Есть письменные свидетельства 1959 года о глубоком снеге в ручье и не в мае, а в начале марта, т.е. всего через месяц после происшествия. Глубина снега в ручье была 4-5 метров:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90871

Место настила и тел на фотографии в конце февраля - начале марта. Ручей заметён снегом вровень с берегами:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=56231

А полностью, вровень с берегами переметённый ручей - это 4 метра снега:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=84600

Трёхметровые щупы ни до тел, ни до настила тогда ещё не доставали.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

What Igor B shares in his post below ,translated :


"There is written evidence from 1959 about deep snow in the stream and not in May, but in early March, i.e. just a month after the incident. The depth of snow in the stream was 4-5 meters"

If you look at Igor's links you will see the photos. As I understand it, the snow fall over the season is some what irrelevant to the depth at the ravine. The snow on the slope is continuously blown . It can have the effect of looking like a blizzard but there is snow fall. It is the snow getting blown off the slope and trees. This is referred to several times in the data we have.

Where the snow falls in to a ravine or indentation in the ground, it does not get blown away so easily and the snow from the slopes will build up in these areas.

The snow would always be on the slopes and forest throughout the season . The depth would depend more on the wind and snow drifts.

Obviously the den was filled in with more snow but if this was dug out by whoever at the time of the incident , then it shows that snow gathers in that location . There was little snow on top of the hikers on the slope and at the ceder but the den was filled up over 3meters. It would suggest that the wind blows and snow gathers. The ravine could have been filled at the beginning of the season, creating snow caves etc.

Or maybe someone had shovels and buried them?

[Ziljoe]

How did they get to the bed rock with all the snow to break the ribs?

And you can also see here all the snow which came after Feb. 2:



On Feb. 2, they could walk around and sit on the den.

Hi Charles,

You posted at the time I was posting. Messages have crossed.

I think the den was built as a an attempt for shelter. I don't  think it was at ground level at the time?

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ziljoe]

As I understand it, the snow fall over the season is some what irrelevant to the depth at the ravine. The snow on the slope is continuously blown .

But blown from where there is snow... obviously. The more snowfalls, the more snow available to be blown to the ravine. There will be always more snow in the ravine at the end of winter and the years when there are particularly abundant snowfalls during winter.

But I doubt there would be bare bedrock at the location of the ravine 4 as you suggest. If the snow builds up in the ravine , it Would of built up earlier in the season. The suggestion of there being a natural snow cave may explain the injuries of the ravine 4. Whether that be 2/3/4/5 meters. I don't think any murders took them there to break the ribs. , The ground at the ceder would have been suitable.

[Игорь Б.]

Метелевый снег активно откладывается в углублениях из-за завихрений воздуха. На ровном месте снег не задерживается. Овраг глубиной несколько метров может замести за один день. Причём рядом на ровном месте или на возвышенности может остаться торчать трава.
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/mila_hunguide/52154789/281850/281850_original.jpg
https://avatars.mds.yandex.net/get-zen_doc/1703733/pub_5e33f91feca84c460931f4e4_5e33f93c3c40ae31521be778/scale_1200
https://newtimes.kz/storage/news/news/2020/01/29/5e31a5c831e78346257060.jpg
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/h1dIkjM1gwo/maxresdefault.jpg
https://zori48.ru/sites/zori48/files/articles/23844/galery/864093.jpg
https://ardexpert.ru/uploads/images/825/02-2016/09a675325f74e7156057cd78ff510726.jpg