Arguments against criminal versions

[GlennM]

Your cars need better belts. Meanwhile, I agree with the initial post that the assasination hypothesis is full of holes. Follow the money! Who is or was profiting from this particular point of view. With conspiracies, there is always a paycheck involved.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

I think Ivdellag guards are possibly the best candidates for the position.

Возможно, когда из французских мест заключения сбегают осужденные, то французские охранники отыскивают их не располагая ни фотографиями из личных карточек учета, ни точной информацией сколько убежало. А как Святой Франциск нашепчет. Видимо во французских Бастилиях - народ сидит неучтенный. Французы - народ не склонный к бюрократии. Иначе гильотины будут ржаветь.

СССР - страна педантичной бюрократии. Если человек осужден - ему создается личное дело, туда вносятся все его изменения в анатомическом составе (если он стал одноглазым или зубы вставил золотые). Отпечатки пальцев и прочее. Поэтому когда заключенные сбегают - наши ловцы точно знают что, где , когда и какие.
Мало того, у нас всегда в охранники берут людей с хорошим зрением, чтоб они могли точно распознавать и отличать туристов от уголовников. Возможно во Франции - нормально быть слепым охранником тюрьмы, но в СССР - слепые приписывались к обществу слепых.

Хочется так же уточнить, что охранники мест заключения - те же советские люди, что тоже во время отпусков ходят в туристские походы. И туризм - был очень популярен. Охранники Гулага - сами бывали туристами и до трудоустройства в охрану, и во время службы и после того, как сменили род трудовой занятости.

Я не могу понять, отчего Вы так роняете черную тень на французских охранников мест заключения. Ведь насколько усердно Вы подозреваете охрану мест заключения, настолько понятнее Ваша нелюбовь к такому месту работы. Это у Вас врожденное или приобретенное?

It is possible that when convicts escape from French places of detention, the French guards look for them without having any photographs from personal records, or exact information about how many escaped. And how Saint Francis whispers. Apparently in the French Bastilles - the people are sitting unaccounted for. The French are a people not prone to bureaucracy. Otherwise the guillotines will rust.

The USSR is a country of pedantic bureaucracy. If a person is convicted, a personal file is created for him, all his changes in the anatomical composition are made there (if he became one-eyed or inserted gold teeth). Fingerprints and more. Therefore, when prisoners escape, our catchers know exactly what, where, when and what.
Moreover, our security guards always take people with good eyesight so that they can accurately recognize and distinguish tourists from criminals. Perhaps in France it is normal to be a blind prison guard, but in the USSR the blind were assigned to the society of the blind.

I would also like to clarify that the guards of the places of detention are the same Soviet people who also go hiking during the holidays. And tourism was very popular. The guards of the Gulag themselves were tourists both before employment in security, and during the service and after they changed the type of employment.

I cannot understand why you cast such a black shadow on the French guards of the places of detention. After all, how diligently you suspect the protection of places of detention, your dislike for such a place of work is much clearer. Is it congenital or acquired in you?

P.S.



"Ищем крановщика, психа и наемного убийцу"(с) Невезучие, 2003

"We are looking for a crane operator, a psycho and a hired killer" (c) Unlucky, 2003

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

And as I already told you, I don't think the hikers had been mistaken for Ivdellag escapees.

---

Тогда на каком основании  Вы подозреваете охрану Гулага в убийстве туристов? Только на том что Вам так нравится?

Туристы на маршруте достаточно часто получали помощь именно от учреждений Гулага. Если Вы хотите самого связанного с гр. Дятлова упоминания такой помощи, то вспоминайте про то кто именно подвозил гр. Блинову до нужного им последнего населенного пункта по маршруту их группы. Эта помощь попала даже на фото. Есть фото где гр. Блинова загружается в грузовик Гулага.

Туристы других групп - на маршруте обращались за помощью в учреждения Гулага. Им предоставляли лыжи вместо сломанных, давали продукты. Это есть в упомянутых мною неоднократно в диспутах с Вами - туристических отчетах того времени.

Так поясните - отчего Вы закрываете глаза на очевидные и имеющиеся и до моего с Вами спора факты? Игнорируете даже свои собственные знания по теме гр. Дятлова, если они конечно у Вас есть?

Then on what basis do you suspect the Gulag guards of killing tourists? Just what you like so much?

Tourists on the route quite often received assistance from Gulag institutions. If you want the most related to gr. Dyatlov mentioning such assistance, then remember who exactly brought gr. Blinov to the last settlement they need along the route of their group. This help even got in the photo. There is a photo where gr. Blinova is loaded onto a Gulag truck.

Туристы других групп - на маршруте обращались за помощью в учреждения Гулага. Им предоставляли лыжи вместо сломанных, давали продукты. Это есть в упомянутых мною неоднократно в диспутах с Вами - туристических отчетах того времени.

Так поясните - отчего Вы закрываете глаза на очевидные и имеющиеся и до моего с Вами спора факты? Игнорируете даже свои собственные знания по теме гр. Дятлова, если они конечно у Вас есть?

[Почемучка]

Dyatlov Pass is not located in France but in the Urals. Soviet Union was a totalitarian state, and totalitarianism is an exception in History: most of cultures experienced kingships, various dictatorships and various types of aristocratic regimes, some experienced various democratic and parliamentary regimes, but totalitarianism appeared in the 20th century and in a few countries only. The circumstances of the DPI are totalitarian USSR. It is a fact. You can multiply ad hominem attacks, it won't change the reality of the fact.

---

У Вас очень специфическое представление о тоталитаризме, надо сказать. С полным отсутствием логики. Вы предполагаете что тоталитарное государство дало команду охране Гулага - уничтожить бедных туристов? Или имеете в виду что-то другое? Предположим, охране Гулага стало скучно издеваться над своими подопечными заключенными и она отправилась далеко в горы в ненаселенную местность ловить случайную дичь - туристов?
Я не менее десяти раз пыталась Вас повернуть на хоть какую-то логически здравую мысль - постоянно упоминая беглых заключенных.

Почему у Вас не рождается мысли - что беглые заключенные: как раз более вероятный вариант? В Ивдельлаге в то время сидели изменники и предатели родины, пособники фашистов, убийцы и прочие буйные головы. Они при побегах брали с собою в компанию таких осужденных, которых намеревались именно съедать, если будут проблемы с питанием на безлюдных просторах тайги или тундры.


You have a very specific idea of ​​totalitarianism, I must say. With a complete lack of logic. Do you assume that the totalitarian state gave the command to protect the Gulag - to destroy the poor tourists? Or do you mean something else? Suppose the guards of the Gulag got bored of mocking their ward prisoners and went far into the mountains to an uninhabited area to catch random game - tourists?
I tried at least ten times to turn you into at least some logically sound thought - constantly mentioning runaway prisoners.

Why don't you think that runaway prisoners are just a more likely option? At that time, traitors and traitors to the motherland, accomplices of the Nazis, murderers and other violent heads were sitting in Ivdellag. When escaping, they took with them to the company such convicts whom they intended to eat if there were problems with food in the deserted expanses of the taiga or tundra.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

It is estimated that in less than 14 years of Ivdellag existence, from 1937 to 1960, its commanders, officers and guards, killed about 30,000 prisoners.

Наверное уже десятый раз Вас спрашиваю. Что общего Вы нашли между заключенными и туристами гр. Дятлова? Почему Вы как дятел долбите который уже пост этот тезис? Получая каждый раз пояснения, что между заключенными и туристами гр. Дятлова никогда не было, нет и не будет знака равенства?

This is probably the tenth time I've asked you. What do you find in common between prisoners and tourists gr. Dyatlov? Why are you hammering like a woodpecker who is already posting this thesis? Each time receiving explanations that between prisoners and tourists gr. Dyatlov never was, is not and never will be an equal sign?

[Почемучка]

My personal opinion is that Soviet collaborationists were traitors to Russia, they worked to destroy Russia, they killed the best Russian people, destroyed the Russian cultural inheritance, created Ukraine and abandoned Crimea... the Russians who were serving the Soviet regime were involved in the self-destruction of Russia. At the origin, the Germans sent Lenin to Russia in the intention to harm the country... The Soviets were not "patriots" they served a totalitarian ideology and even made personal benefits  out of the destruction of Russia.

Ваше личное мнение строится на том, что Вы совершенно не интересовались - кто на 1959 год обитал за колючей проволокой Ивдельлага.
Этому есть много - источников. Ивдельлаг - был зоною для особо опасных преступников. Он и сейчас ровно тоже самое представляет. Отъявленные убийцы, рецидивисты, пособники фашистов которые сами расстреливали советских партизан и тому подобные нелюди.

В Ивдельлаге сидел один из участников операции "Ульм". Стахов его фамилия. Это он кушал своих сотоварищей по заброске в тылы СССР в феврале 1944 года. При отсутствии питания, поскольку груз приземлился далеко от точки их десантирования: эта банда нашла такой выход. Убивала своих же и съедала. Это при том, что они должны были со своим снаряжением проводить масштабные диверсии в тылу СССР. Помогать Гитлеру уничтожать наш мирный народ. Вот такая братва - отбывала сроки в Ивдельлаге. А уж какие там нелюди -убийцы срок мотали: это вообще лучше не знать.

Your personal opinion is based on the fact that you were not at all interested in who in 1959 lived behind the barbed wire of Ivdellag.
There are many sources for this. Ivdellag - was a zone for especially dangerous criminals. He still does exactly the same thing. Notorious killers, recidivists, accomplices of the Nazis who themselves shot Soviet partisans and similar nonhumans.

One of the participants in the Ulm operation was sitting in Ivdellag. Stakhov is his surname. It was he who ate his comrades in the transfer to the rear of the USSR in February 1944. In the absence of power, since the cargo landed far from the point of their landing: this gang found such a way out. She killed her own and ate them. This despite the fact that they had to carry out large-scale sabotage in the rear of the USSR with their equipment. Help Hitler destroy our peaceful people. Here is such a lad - served time in Ivdellag. And what kind of non-humans-murderers were there: it’s generally better not to know.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Ehtnisba]

I think Ivdellag guards are possibly the best candidates for the position.

Возможно, когда из французских мест заключения сбегают осужденные, то французские охранники отыскивают их не располагая ни фотографиями из личных карточек учета, ни точной информацией сколько убежало. А как Святой Франциск нашепчет. Видимо во французских Бастилиях - народ сидит неучтенный. Французы - народ не склонный к бюрократии. Иначе гильотины будут ржаветь.

СССР - страна педантичной бюрократии. Если человек осужден - ему создается личное дело, туда вносятся все его изменения в анатомическом составе (если он стал одноглазым или зубы вставил золотые). Отпечатки пальцев и прочее. Поэтому когда заключенные сбегают - наши ловцы точно знают что, где , когда и какие.
Мало того, у нас всегда в охранники берут людей с хорошим зрением, чтоб они могли точно распознавать и отличать туристов от уголовников. Возможно во Франции - нормально быть слепым охранником тюрьмы, но в СССР - слепые приписывались к обществу слепых.

Хочется так же уточнить, что охранники мест заключения - те же советские люди, что тоже во время отпусков ходят в туристские походы. И туризм - был очень популярен. Охранники Гулага - сами бывали туристами и до трудоустройства в охрану, и во время службы и после того, как сменили род трудовой занятости.

Я не могу понять, отчего Вы так роняете черную тень на французских охранников мест заключения. Ведь насколько усердно Вы подозреваете охрану мест заключения, настолько понятнее Ваша нелюбовь к такому месту работы. Это у Вас врожденное или приобретенное?

It is possible that when convicts escape from French places of detention, the French guards look for them without having any photographs from personal records, or exact information about how many escaped. And how Saint Francis whispers. Apparently in the French Bastilles - the people are sitting unaccounted for. The French are a people not prone to bureaucracy. Otherwise the guillotines will rust.

The USSR is a country of pedantic bureaucracy. If a person is convicted, a personal file is created for him, all his changes in the anatomical composition are made there (if he became one-eyed or inserted gold teeth). Fingerprints and more. Therefore, when prisoners escape, our catchers know exactly what, where, when and what.
Moreover, our security guards always take people with good eyesight so that they can accurately recognize and distinguish tourists from criminals. Perhaps in France it is normal to be a blind prison guard, but in the USSR the blind were assigned to the society of the blind.

I would also like to clarify that the guards of the places of detention are the same Soviet people who also go hiking during the holidays. And tourism was very popular. The guards of the Gulag themselves were tourists both before employment in security, and during the service and after they changed the type of employment.

I cannot understand why you cast such a black shadow on the French guards of the places of detention. After all, how diligently you suspect the protection of places of detention, your dislike for such a place of work is much clearer. Is it congenital or acquired in you?

P.S.



"Ищем крановщика, психа и наемного убийцу"(с) Невезучие, 2003

"We are looking for a crane operator, a psycho and a hired killer" (c) Unlucky, 2003

His theory is not about mistaking tourists with prisioners!
It is very long and well sustained with a major link Kolevatovs. Charles has researched quite deep waters and is not the typical dull Westerner. He has been here or read from the source in Russian. I don't want to retell his theory , let him post his links. From so many theories and foreigners digging the bones , his posts were first to intrigue me. Even looking deeper in the diaries and psychologically making vivid pictures of people is an interesting read. Let:s not always present us (all Slavic nations) as "know it all  , all Westerners are stupid'. Most are naive and uneducated, but when someone is not and disapproves of West means and cultural decline, lets give them the benefit of talk.
As a French speaker , English makes the spacific french humour sound as rudeness. It is not. Our language also comes as rude when the English kills most of our idioms and jokes, so don't jump to conclusions his speach is rude. It is French to UK translation to blame. Give Charles chance and after he explains the theory. You as a Russian can then help and add, deny facts. I am born too late and also miss a lot of psychology of people back than. But I know how my grandparents were as people.
Best wishes!

[Ehtnisba]

I think Ivdellag guards are possibly the best candidates for the position.

Возможно, когда из французских мест заключения сбегают осужденные, то французские охранники отыскивают их не располагая ни фотографиями из личных карточек учета, ни точной информацией сколько убежало. А как Святой Франциск нашепчет. Видимо во французских Бастилиях - народ сидит неучтенный. Французы - народ не склонный к бюрократии. Иначе гильотины будут ржаветь.

СССР - страна педантичной бюрократии. Если человек осужден - ему создается личное дело, туда вносятся все его изменения в анатомическом составе (если он стал одноглазым или зубы вставил золотые). Отпечатки пальцев и прочее. Поэтому когда заключенные сбегают - наши ловцы точно знают что, где , когда и какие.
Мало того, у нас всегда в охранники берут людей с хорошим зрением, чтоб они могли точно распознавать и отличать туристов от уголовников. Возможно во Франции - нормально быть слепым охранником тюрьмы, но в СССР - слепые приписывались к обществу слепых.

Хочется так же уточнить, что охранники мест заключения - те же советские люди, что тоже во время отпусков ходят в туристские походы. И туризм - был очень популярен. Охранники Гулага - сами бывали туристами и до трудоустройства в охрану, и во время службы и после того, как сменили род трудовой занятости.

Я не могу понять, отчего Вы так роняете черную тень на французских охранников мест заключения. Ведь насколько усердно Вы подозреваете охрану мест заключения, настолько понятнее Ваша нелюбовь к такому месту работы. Это у Вас врожденное или приобретенное?

It is possible that when convicts escape from French places of detention, the French guards look for them without having any photographs from personal records, or exact information about how many escaped. And how Saint Francis whispers. Apparently in the French Bastilles - the people are sitting unaccounted for. The French are a people not prone to bureaucracy. Otherwise the guillotines will rust.

The USSR is a country of pedantic bureaucracy. If a person is convicted, a personal file is created for him, all his changes in the anatomical composition are made there (if he became one-eyed or inserted gold teeth). Fingerprints and more. Therefore, when prisoners escape, our catchers know exactly what, where, when and what.
Moreover, our security guards always take people with good eyesight so that they can accurately recognize and distinguish tourists from criminals. Perhaps in France it is normal to be a blind prison guard, but in the USSR the blind were assigned to the society of the blind.

I would also like to clarify that the guards of the places of detention are the same Soviet people who also go hiking during the holidays. And tourism was very popular. The guards of the Gulag themselves were tourists both before employment in security, and during the service and after they changed the type of employment.

I cannot understand why you cast such a black shadow on the French guards of the places of detention. After all, how diligently you suspect the protection of places of detention, your dislike for such a place of work is much clearer. Is it congenital or acquired in you?

P.S.



"Ищем крановщика, психа и наемного убийцу"(с) Невезучие, 2003

"We are looking for a crane operator, a psycho and a hired killer" (c) Unlucky, 2003

For the sake of joke - I lived in France and they were so brutally burrocratic that their stiff burrocracy made me wish to opt out of havint home internet and quit my university. Horrible stiff burrocracy in there . Maybe Germans have less 😆😆😆

[Ehtnisba]

At that time, traitors and traitors to the motherland, accomplices of the Nazis, murderers and other violent heads were sitting in Ivdellag. When escaping, they took with them to the company such convicts whom they intended to eat if there were problems with food in the deserted expanses of the taiga or tundra.

Of course, Zeks were all guilty, and the hikers were even "the accused" in the forms their families had to fill when interrogated by Tempalov (at the eleventh line). Pretending that Gulag had anything to do with "justice" as it is understood in civilized countries is laughable.

That is to say you probably have a tie of interest with the Soviet regime, either you directly received or inherited benefits from the regime. So you should be able to clarify this issues as you pretend to have access to the "abyss of knowledge":

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1186.0

My personal opinion is that Soviet collaborationists were traitors to Russia, they worked to destroy Russia, they killed the best Russian people, destroyed the Russian cultural inheritance, created Ukraine and abandoned Crimea... the Russians who were serving the Soviet regime were involved in the self-destruction of Russia. At the origin, the Germans sent Lenin to Russia in the intention to harm the country... The Soviets were not "patriots" they served a totalitarian ideology and even made personal benefits  out of the destruction of Russia.

Charles,
It is true about nazi collaborators and other low life traitors in Gulags. Not so true that "innocent " people there. If by innocent we accept what we are forced to accept now - all radicals and degenarates have protection. Democracy in EU is worse than fashism today. Be a white man and say there is no third gender publicly or try say that blacks beating whites is hate crimr and you gonna be jailed. So F that "demo-fashist" state EU. It surpasses any totalitarian one and after wwII was full of very guilty ones ,  I can swear on this on my nan's memory! Today even French Revolution is called barbaric act and the elites are pissing on the memory of honourable people. Children study today how french revolutioners are bunch of blood thursty criminals. And history is muddy. And written by the winners. The West had appaulingly messed people brains about out countries. Is not Stalin the ghoul, look accros the pond and will find the real ghouls. Thats what I think and feel as a direct discendant of the people lived through those years. Can't belirve any book except my ancestors memories
 Yeah, history is a very dirty swamp. Let's have non polar looks and conclusions at it. Ukraine and Macedonia are bloody mistakes to which my knowledge lacks   , but for them you have same feeling as me. Why, who, when... I don't know. Both are Ahiles heel for Russia and Bulgaria. But look at Kosovo, it is not Soviets making it. As I said we have hidden real ghouls playing the muppets elsewhere. And damn those muppet selling their souls and having blood tothe elbows!
Best wishes,
Greeny

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

I don't think and I never wrote that the hikers were mistaken for prisoners: you're attacking a straw man you created yourself.

But Ivan Prodanov, the head of Ivdel City Committee, worked for Sevurallag NKVD in Tavda where he was a colleague of Alexander Kolevatov's father. Ivan Prodanov knew the Kolevatovs.

Какие новости...Вы получается из чувства преогромной скромности: умалчивали все это время свои мотивации долбить про охрану Гулага?
То что Вы предположили - совершенно невозможно. Вы видимо - уточнили кем работал И.С.Проданов в системе ВостУраллага и СевУралага? Проследили то, какую он специальность получил в лесном институте? В чем состояла эта специализация?
А я подскажу. Вы попали на того самого человека, который похоронит Вашу версию совершенно аргументированно.
Потому что товарищ Проданов - это что я изучала все время сколько я в дятловедении.
П.С. Не знаю как нынче французы представляют себе приличные манеры, но даже при Наполеоне - они считали невоспитанным проявлять отсутствие уважения к противнику. Вы залили тему Зайцева на десять слоев своими представлениями о Гулаге. Зайцеву!!!
Так уж вышло что мы с ним живем как раз в бывшем краю царства Гулагов. Кто как не мы - развеем по ветру Ваши фантазии?
Бросайте шпагу, месье Чарльз... Это не Ваша тема и значит не Ваша война...


What's the news ... You get out of a feeling of immense modesty: all this time you kept silent about your motivations to gouge about the protection of the Gulag?
What you suggested is completely impossible. You apparently - specified who I.S. Prodanov worked in the system of VostUrallag and SevUrallag? Have you traced what specialty he received at the Forestry Institute? What was this specialization?
And I'll tell you. You have come across the very person who will bury your version with complete arguments.
Because Comrade Prodanov is what I have been studying all the time I have been in woodpecker science.

P.S. I don’t know how the French today imagine decent manners, but even under Napoleon, they considered it ill-mannered to show lack of respect for the enemy. You flooded the topic of Zaitsev into ten layers with your ideas about the Gulag. Zaitsev!!!
It just so happened that he and I live just in the former edge of the Gulag kingdom. Who else if not us - will scatter your fantasies in the wind?
Drop your sword, Monsieur Charles ... This is not your topic and therefore not your war ...

[Почемучка]

His theory is not about mistaking tourists with prisioners!
It is very long and well sustained with a major link Kolevatovs. Charles has researched quite deep waters and is not the typical dull Westerner. He has been here or read from the source in Russian. I don't want to retell his theory , let him post his links. From so many theories and foreigners digging the bones , his posts were first to intrigue me. Even looking deeper in the diaries and psychologically making vivid pictures of people is an interesting read. Let:s not always present us (all Slavic nations) as "know it all  , all Westerners are stupid'. Most are naive and uneducated, but when someone is not and disapproves of West means and cultural decline, lets give them the benefit of talk.
As a French speaker , English makes the spacific french humour sound as rudeness. It is not. Our language also comes as rude when the English kills most of our idioms and jokes, so don't jump to conclusions his speach is rude. It is French to UK translation to blame. Give Charles chance and after he explains the theory. You as a Russian can then help and add, deny facts. I am born too late and also miss a lot of psychology of people back than. But I know how my grandparents were as people.
Best wishes!

Ну да. Опять русские как могильщики  капитализма  малограмотности среди французской интеллигенции...

Well, yes. Again, Russians as gravediggers of  capitalism  illiteracy among the French intelligentsia...

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

What you suggested is completely impossible. You apparently - specified who I.S. Prodanov worked in the system of VostUrallag and SevUrallag?

И это все чем Вы располагаете? Вы не знаете какой факультет он заканчивал и что за квалификация давалась этим специалистам?
Где они потом применяли свои знании и с какой именно техникой работали?

И Вы до сих пор не находите себя вне своей темы? Словом забыли что это тема Зайцева и она совершенно не про Вас со своими представлениями?
П.С. Я очень много постов на разных форумах посвятила исследованиям персоны И.С. Проданова. Зацелуйте своего Гугла и найдите эти посты самостоятельно. Когда преумножите свои знания - тогда поговорим.
Я знаете - всех французов с детства представляю Д'Артаньянами. Старик Дюма тому виною. А оказалось - они вымерли под натиском серых кардиналов типа Ришелье.

And is that all you have? Do you know what faculty he graduated from and what qualifications were given to these specialists?
Where did they then apply their knowledge and what kind of equipment did they work with?

And you still do not find yourself out of your topic? In a word, they forgot that this is the topic of Zaitsev and it is absolutely not about you with your ideas?
P.S. I devoted a lot of posts on various forums to the research of the person of I.S. Prodanov. Kiss your Google and find these posts on your own. When you multiply your knowledge, then we'll talk.
I know that since childhood I have represented all the French as D'Artagnans. Old Dumas is to blame. But it turned out - they died out under the onslaught of gray cardinals such as Richelieu.

[Почемучка]

MELNIKOV Mihail Vladimirovich (Мельников Михаил Владимирович) in 1959 he could have lived in Ivdel and taken part in the search. Born in 1919. in the village of Anastasovo, Poretsky district of the Chechen ASSR, in 1949 - worked as a mechanic in the village of Anastasovo. On 17.02.1949 he was arrested on a charge of crime defined in article 58, clause 1 "b"Criminal Code of the RSFSR. On 6.07.1949 the military tribunal of the Volga Military District sentenced him to 25 years in a labor camp, with deprivation of rights for 5 years, with confiscation of all private assets and deprivation of the medal "For Victory over Germany in the Great Patriotic War 1941-1945". He served his sentence in the Ivdellag of the USSR Ministry of Internal Affairs, Sverdlovsk region. Rehabilitated on 31.08.1954 by the Military Tribunal of the Volga Military District due to the absence of corpus delicti in his actions. Discharged from detention.

SIBGATULLIN Haybik Muslyumovich (Сибгатуллин Хайбик Муслюмович) in 1959 he could have lived in Ivdel and worked as a independent contractor in the Northern Expedition, at PO Box 240 system or military unit 6602. Born in the villageof Bikeyevo, Kamsko-Ust'insky district in 1907. Tatar; member of the All-Union Communist Party (Bolsheviks) since 1927; vice-principal of the river engineering vocational school. Arrested on Sep 29, 1945; on Mar 16, 1946, sentenced by the military tribunal of the Upper Volga Basin to 7 years of labor camps (+disenfranchised for 3 years) under Article 58-10 Part 2 of the Criminal Code ("slander of the working people’s economic conditions "). Apparently, he was exiled to Ivdellag, Sverdlovsk region. On 14.01.1948 he was sentenced to 8 years in prison (disenfranchised for 5 years) under Article 58-10 Part 1 of CC by the Ivdellag court. Rehabilitated on Jun 27, 1956.

SOLTER Victor Konstantinovich (Солтер Виктор Константинович) (1925-2009) in 1959 - a staff member of PO Box 240 (Ivdel); Inspector of the State Inspection of Soyuzgosles. Born in Zhitomir (Ukrainian SSR). Participated in the Great Patriotic War from December 1943 to May 1945. He fought on the 2nd Ukrainian Front.He began his service as a private of the 583rd Anti-Aircraft Artillery Regiment, and finished as a sergeant, a reconnaissance unit of military unit 77086. Awarded the Order of the Patriotic War II degree 1985; medals "For Military Merit", "For the Capture of Budapest", jubilee medals. In 1950 he was sentenced to 20 years in prison under Article 58-14 (counter-revolutionary sabotage). After numerous motions, the sentence was reduced by 11.5 years, then by another three years. Served his sentence in Ivdellag (in the 2nd, 5th departments on the Separate Prison Camp. He was released in 1956. He was fully exonerated.

Probably very "dangerous criminals"...

Testimonies about Ivdellag:

Jadwiga Bałajewicz

On 15 February 1941, they took us two from Nizhnyaya Tura to a large forced labor camp in Ivdel. On the day of our arrival in Ivdel we were forced to prepare a mud hut for ourselves. Although waterlogged and damp, it was the only place where we could rest for even a while. I worked felling trees. My hands were in a terrible state, covered with blisters and festering wounds caused by the continuous use of a heavy ax and saw. We were fed with nothing more than beetroot and radish; we all suffered stomach ailments, and one half of all prisoners died of hunger. (source)

Józefa Dobrońska

I was arrested in Wilno on 15 June 1941 and deported to the Northern Ural, Sverdlovsk Oblast. I spent seven months in a labor camp there. Both the housing and hygienic conditions were deplorable. A small group of Poles, comprising 25 people, was placed among 600 Estonians, who were very kind to us. The work (sawing timber) lasted from 6.00 a.m. to 6.00 p.m. In return for work we received only food. The Soviet authorities were very hostile and full of sarcasm. They often addressed us with mockery, telling us that we would never leave the woods or go anywhere else. The medical assistance was virtually non-existent. The mortality rate was very high. From six to eight people died on some days. (source

Other "dangerous criminals" I guess.

---

Это что-то уже невыносимое...Вы сами даете против своих аргументов - контрфакты? Вы не замечаете в приведенном Вами тексте - что все упомянутые Вами персоны: на 1959 год уже освобождены?
Я могу пополнить Ваш список Соломоновичем Ф.Я.  Его отец был сначала заключенным Ивдельлага, а потом - работником Ивдельлага.
А сам Ф.Я.Соломонович - был уже вторым поколением династии Соломоновичей в Ивдельлаге. Причем  сам Ф.Я.Соломонович - спокойно оценивал эти жернова истории. Его отец подписывал бумаги на аресты подозреваемых граждан, и сам потом - оказался там куда попадали им подведенные под суд люди.

Надо не так нервно относиться к этой стороне нашей истории. Другие страны выезжали на колонизации и эксплуатации населения колоний. Россия не заводила колоний. Территория её и так была огромна. Поэтому неизбежно, когда возникла тема необходимости быстрого увеличения валового национального продукта, это выпало на период СССР: колониальный труд появился и у нас. Да, в такой форме Гулагов. Страна колонизировала свое население. Что очень считай по-Божески. Другие народы - не страдали. Доход уходил тому же государству чей был и народ.

Я понятно Вам донесла особую роль и особые пути России на планете Земля?

This is something already unbearable ... Do you yourself give counterfactuals against your arguments? You do not notice in the text you cited - that all the persons you mentioned: have already been released for 1959?
I can add to your list Solomonovich F.Ya. His father was first a prisoner of Ivdellag, and then an employee of Ivdellag.
And F.Ya. Solomonovich himself was already the second generation of the Solomonovich dynasty in Ivdellag. Moreover, F.Ya. Solomonovich himself calmly assessed these millstones of history. His father signed papers for the arrests of suspected citizens, and then he himself ended up where the people brought to trial by him fell.

We should not be so nervous about this side of our history. Other countries traveled to colonize and exploit the population of the colonies. Russia did not start colonies. Its territory was already huge. Therefore, inevitably, when the topic of the need for a rapid increase in the gross national product arose, it fell on the period of the USSR: colonial labor also appeared in our country. Yes, in this form Gulags. The country has colonized its population. Which is very Godly. Other nations did not suffer. Income went to the same state whose people were.

[Charles]

nothing here

[Charles]

nothing here

[Manti]

Democracy in EU is worse than fashism today. Be a white man and say there is no third gender publicly or try say that blacks beating whites is hate crimr and you gonna be jailed.

Lol, what is going on on this forum? 
Go to reddit.com/r/reformuk/ or something

[Почемучка]

We don't like people who make noise with the mouth when eating soup... it's not decent. And I think Tolstoy wrote somewhere he couldn't consider the ones who put their finger in their nose to be decent people. So as a Frenchman, I can agree with Tolstoy's idea of decency (although I don't have Russian genes, I am not a complete stranger to the morals of a Russian novelist).

Тогда имеет смысл Вам почитать чего-нибудь из мемуаров Наполеона или офицеров его армии.
Наполеон конечно был очень азартным человеком, любившим поискушать судьбу. Ему египетские жрецы не советовали в форме знамений при посещении пирамиды Хеопса пытаться победить Россию. Мол - рога пообломают. Но он это воспринял буквально и раз Жозефина ему не изменяла, то посчитал что рисковать ему нечем...

П.С. Сейчас моя дочь возмутилась и заявила что Наполеон знал что Жозефина ему изменяет и это как раз в виде семейных ссор было до его похода на Россию. Вот так мы уважительно относимся к Франции. Знаем её историю.

Что ж, под давлением неопровержимых аргументов будем считать что Наполеон пошел на Россию именно с целью чтоб ему рога обломали. Других решений темы расстаться с рогами он не нашел. Герой однако...

Then it makes sense for you to read something from the memoirs of Napoleon or the officers of his army.
Napoleon, of course, was a very gambling man who loved to tempt fate. Egyptian priests did not advise him in the form of signs when visiting the pyramid of Cheops to try to defeat Russia. They say - the horns will break. But he took it literally, and since Josephine did not cheat on him, he considered that he had nothing to risk ...

P.S. Now my daughter was indignant and said that Napoleon knew that Josephine was cheating on him, and this was just in the form of family quarrels before his campaign against Russia. This is how we treat France with respect. We know her history.

Well, under the pressure of irrefutable arguments, we will assume that Napoleon went to Russia precisely for the purpose of breaking off his horns. He did not find other solutions to the topic of parting with the horns. The hero though...

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

But I.S. Prodanov... he worked for SevUrallag NKVD and VostUrallag NKVD... didn't he?

Это были лагеря со специализацией по валу леса. Лесозаготовки. Лесозаготовки подразумевают лесорубов и технику, которая вывозит лес  от места вырубки. Специализация Проданова была - техника для вывоза. Автомобильная. На тот год - когда Проданов И.С. закончил лесотехнический институт и даже позднее: эта автомобильная техника у нас была удивительного для Вас вида. Опять целуйте ручки своему Гуглу и ищите картинки в сети.
Но сначала запаситесь валерьанкой. Наши советские технические решения - будут для Вас из категории: "Как это возможно?"

These were camps with a specialization in the shaft of the forest. Logging. Logging involves lumberjacks and equipment that removes wood from the felling site. Prodanov's specialization was export equipment. Automotive. For that year - when Prodanov I.S. graduated from the Forestry Institute and even later: we had an amazing view of this automotive equipment for you. Again kiss the hands of your Google and look for pictures on the net.
But first stock up on valerian. Our Soviet technical solutions - will be for you from the category: "How is this possible?"

[Charles]

nothing here

[Почемучка]

So Ivan Prodanov worked for SevUrallag NKVD in Tavda. Why did you try to deny the fact so naively: "What you suggested is completely impossible"?

Will you also try to deny the fact that Alexander Kolevatov's father worked for SevUrallag NKVD in Tavda, at the same time, and that he and Prodanov were actual colleagues?

---

Ваш Гугл не вернулся к Вам даже для целей получить букет роз?

Понимаете какое дело...Вы постоянно одно подменяете другим. Манси подменяете ненцами и хантами. Автомобили - паровозами. Лесные лежневые дороги - рельсами узкоколеек. Вы ставите между совершенно разными объектами и субъектами - знак равенства.
И считаете такое выравнивание бульдозером - нормою. Вы пытаетесь если говорить образно - одеть на бегемота балетную пачку и представить его лебедем.
Я Вам доходчиво поясняла - почему СССР пришел к системе Гулагов. Профессора экономики мне наверное за такой экспромт- анализ - степень доктора присвоили бы. Все дело в том, что Вы - вне России и никогда ни умом и ни сердцем Россию не поймете.
Так что Вы хотите доказать в итоге? То что Вы ничего о нас не знаете и тем более - не понимаете. Не в состоянии понять.

Система Гулагов была вынужденной мерою. В её жерновах перемололось много судеб. Цена тому -  СССР выстоял против всего мира и не стал колонией, завоеванным другими странами. Не стал и никогда не станет. СССР пришлось колонизировать свой народ. Рабский труд давал возможность устоять и противостоять. Не быть бедным государством. Гулаг дал стране - нужный объем валового национального продукта с минимальным затратами на оплату труда. Пострадавшая часть населения отдала свой труд своим потомкам.
 
Очень скоро - многие были реабилитированы. Как только необходимость в дешевом труде - не стала такой острой. Жертвам политических репрессий - государство сейчас доплачивает. Да, это не стоит погубленных жизней. Это мало как возврат компенсации.
Но даже сейчас - экономисты не видят другого и эффективного выхода. Можно идеализировать и мыслить фантазиями, предлагать утопии. Не факт - что предложенная утопия дала бы тот результат, какой получился у СССР.
Мы стали державою, мы стали глыбою. У нас свой и особенный путь. Это трудно оспорить.

Your Google didn't even come back to you for the purpose of getting a bouquet of roses?

You understand what's the matter ... You are constantly replacing one with another. You are replacing the Mansi with the Nenets and Khanty. Cars - locomotives. Forest lay roads - narrow-gauge rails. You put between completely different objects and subjects - an equal sign.
And you consider such alignment with a bulldozer to be the norm. You are trying, figuratively speaking, to put a tutu on a hippopotamus and present it as a swan.

I explained to you intelligibly - why the USSR came to the Gulag system. A professor of economics would probably award me a doctorate degree for such an impromptu analysis. The thing is that you are outside of Russia and you will never understand Russia with your mind or heart.
So what do you want to prove in the end? The fact that you do not know anything about us, and even more so - do not understand. Unable to understand.

The Gulag system was a forced measure. Many destinies were ground in her millstones. The price for this is that the USSR stood up against the whole world and did not become a colony conquered by other countries. It didn't and never will. The USSR had to colonize its people. Slave labor made it possible to stand and resist. Don't be a poor state. Gulag gave the country - the required amount of gross national product with minimal labor costs. The affected part of the population gave their labor to their descendants.

Very soon - many were rehabilitated. As soon as the need for cheap labor did not become so acute. Victims of political repression - the state now pays extra. Yes, it's not worth the lost lives. It is little like a refund of compensation.
But even now - economists do not see another and effective way out. You can idealize and think in fantasies, offer utopias. It is not a fact that the proposed utopia would have given the result that the USSR had.
We have become a power, we have become a lump. We have our own and special way. This is hard to dispute.