a test today on lighting matches

[GlennM]

There has been some mention of missing pages in a diary. I immediately think of kindling if a fire was made at all. Too, I think that it makes practical sense to keep the wind at your back. Going to the woods in line with a potential avalanche does not surprise me or them, I believe they knew the area was not avalanche prone when they dug their ledge on the hummock of snow to pitch their tent. They left the tent because they could not use it just then. It was collapsed, they were cold and it was not going to get better. So, it is better to shelter in the woods where there is firewood than to remain in the dark on the slope trying to clear overburden of slab snow, mend poles and attend to injuries while exposed to a katabatic wind.  All of that just to re erect a tent they just cut up There is no need to fold in some external human presence to understand the behavior.  It seems straightforward. The complication comes from introducing bad actors finding themselves high on a barren slope in the middle of nowhere in the middle of night in the middle of winter with nothing better to do than kill nine people, taking nothing, just for the fun of it.

[tenne]

There has been some mention of missing pages in a diary. I immediately think of kindling if a fire was made at all. Too, I think that it makes practical sense to keep the wind at your back. Going to the woods in line with a potential avalanche does not surprise me or them, I believe they knew the area was not avalanche prone when they dug their ledge on the hummock of snow to pitch their tent. They left the tent because they could not use it just then. It was collapsed, they were cold and it was not going to get better. So, it is better to shelter in the woods where there is firewood than to remain in the dark on the slope trying to clear overburden of slab snow, mend poles and attend to injuries while exposed to a katabatic wind.  All of that just to re erect a tent they just cut up There is no need to fold in some external human presence to understand the behavior.  It seems straightforward. The complication comes from introducing bad actors finding themselves high on a barren slope in the middle of nowhere in the middle of night in the middle of winter with nothing better to do than kill nine people, taking nothing, just for the fun of it.

There was firewood at the tent, according to the reports I have seen and they had a working flashlight, if the one found on top of the tent was theirs, so to walk down to the wet trees instead of getting warm clothing, firewood etc makes no sense to me. It would be much brighter on the slope (there was supposed to be an almost full moon if I'm reading the charts properly) so on a treeless snow covered slope there would be plenty of light to dig out. Moon light walks are a very real thing here in the country so, IMO, they could see on the slope just fine. Its in the trees that the light gets much worse.

There were plenty of trees much closer to them so unless that cedar was a specific target for them, any trees would have given cover and much closer to the tent

I do not believe anyone killed them on the slope. I think it is a cover up and the tent was put there to make sure it was found

I can't understand why anyone would use diary paper for kindling, when there was other paper to be used

[RMK]

Once the first bit slides it makes everything above have the possibility to slide.

I think that's a really key part of any credible "avalanche" theory about the Dyatlov Pass Incident.  When they tried to clear the snow away, more snow settled downwardly to replace it.  You can understand why they'd give up trying to dig out their tent if their digging tools happened to be buried in snow, and if clearing away snow by hand just caused more snow to shift onto their tent.

It's all about how they perceived the danger.

Indeed.  I've wondered if the effects of infrasound made them anxious and jumpy, and therefore more likely to panic and abandon their tent.

There was firewood at the tent, according to the reports I have seen and they had a working flashlight, if the one found on top of the tent was theirs, so to walk down to the wet trees instead of getting warm clothing, firewood etc makes no sense to me. It would be much brighter on the slope (there was supposed to be an almost full moon if I'm reading the charts properly) so on a treeless snow covered slope there would be plenty of light to dig out. Moon light walks are a very real thing here in the country so, IMO, they could see on the slope just fine. Its in the trees that the light gets much worse.

There were plenty of trees much closer to them so unless that cedar was a specific target for them, any trees would have given cover and much closer to the tent

I do not believe anyone killed them on the slope. I think it is a cover up and the tent was put there to make sure it was found

I can't understand why anyone would use diary paper for kindling, when there was other paper to be used

I don't believe the moon was going to rise that night until the wee hours of the morning.

At any rate, IIRC, the searchers found a lot of spent matches near the campfire, so it would seem it took a lot of attempts to get the fire going.  That's all assuming, of course, that the Dyatlov hikers lit that fire, and that the scene wasn't staged (and I am not sure I accept that assumption).

[GlennM]

Teddy has just posted the camp at 2600 feet elevation. Any impact on (1) making fire (2) heating water to boil?

[tenne]

Teddy has just posted the camp at 2600 feet elevation. Any impact on (1) making fire (2) heating water to boil?

All I could find was:

 At a higher elevation, the lower atmospheric pressure means heated water reaches its boiling point more quickly—i.e., at a lower temperature.

It depends on the fuel. Volatile gasses can burn at very high altitudes. Wood for example is hard to keep burning at 12,000 ft ele. Even wood that burns hot and is easy to light will go out easily in high altitudes but would burn like mad in lower elevations.

[GlennM]

Tennessee, agreed. Good research. It would seem that if a match could be struck, fire,could be made and sustained for a time at that elevation.  Do you think the hikers would have even considered building a campfire outside their tent on 1079? Would they do this in the forest? If yes to,either, then the remains of a campsite can not be far removed.

[tenne]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

[Manti]

2600ft is not high. There's no significant effect on oxygen levels, ability to breathe, boil water, lighting a fire or anything like that. It's practically the same as at sea level.

Now this is embarrassing but regarding lighting a fire, I will say that I have never managed to light a fire in the forest in winter with matches. Fortunately it was always more of a nice to have on camping trips not a need. But every time I tried 4 or 5 times, I failed. Matches would light as normal, but wood would just not catch fire. Freshly chopped or found dead wood... neither works because fresh wood is moist and dead wood in the winter is the same because it got rained on, snowed on, there's ice in the pores of the wood and when you hold a match to it, it melts and makes the wood wet. Summer is different because dry dead wood is abundant.

I've only ever had success using some kind of fire starter liquid, the most low-tech is wax from a candle which kind of works. And of course special products made for this purpose which we had with us most of the time make the task super easy.

[tenne]

totally off topic but the best fire starter I have ever carried with me on a trip is dryer lint soak in soya wax. its very easy, lasts a long time as it burns the wax and its very light and waterproof

[GlennM]

Tenne,  apologies for autocorrect calling you Tennessee.

If someone laid a fire before of after the hiker's calamity,  it is immaterial. If it was laid during the calamity then the hikers did it or as some posit, the assassins did it. It would be likely that the DP9 would develop some understandable strategy to deal with a human threat, not the least of which would be to leave a written record and photos. If there was no external threat, then their woodsmanship should have come into play...unless Nature won out.

[ilahiyol]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!

[tenne]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!

Can I ask if  you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?

[tenne]

Tenne,  apologies for autocorrect calling you Tennessee.

If someone laid a fire before of after the hiker's calamity,  it is immaterial. If it was laid during the calamity then the hikers did it or as some posit, the assassins did it. It would be likely that the DP9 would develop some understandable strategy to deal with a human threat, not the least of which would be to leave a written record and photos. If there was no external threat, then their woodsmanship should have come into play...unless Nature won out.

no problem, been called much worse and I kinda like that name. one of the characters in the Woody Harrelson zombie movie was called that.

I do not believe there were assassins, I believe it was an accident and the people who lit the fire were either a part of the cover up or it was there already from a passing Mansi

[ilahiyol]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!

Can I ask if  you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?

I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.

[Manti]

It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.

[GlennM]

They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.

Is that the high cost of telling the truth? I could accept Mansi rearranging the bodies, but do you think that really happened? Curious?

[Ziljoe]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!

Can I ask if  you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?

I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.

@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then  it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.

[ilahiyol]

They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.

Is that the high cost of telling the truth? I could accept Mansi rearranging the bodies, but do you think that really happened? Curious?

Unknown coercive force attacked them and they should all have died in about half an hour for the same time. In this case, it is not possible for a group of 4 to buy clothes from two Yuri. In this case, the mansi must have taken off their clothes. But according to a second scenario, after the two Yuri's were killed, the coercive force attacked the group of 3 on the mountainside. This attack must have lasted about 15 minutes. During this 15-minute period, the group of 4 may have wanted to buy clothes from two Yuri. This is possible, but I think this possibility is much less.

[ilahiyol]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!

Can I ask if  you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?

I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.

@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then  it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.

It is always possible to find dry branches in the forest. Yes, they are a little difficult to burn, but after starting the first fire, other wet branches begin to dry immediately. Dead tree branches can always be found. Especially around a big tree there are many of them. Their choice of cedar wood was for both easy fire-making and surveillance.

[ilahiyol]

It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.

Yes, it's always below zero at night, but you don't know for sure how many degrees it is. You don't know if it's -10 or -20. Experiment can be done easily..... At the end of January and beginning of February, measurements are made in the evening hours of 10 days and results can be obtained easily.

[Ziljoe]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!

Can I ask if  you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?

I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.

@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then  it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.

It is always possible to find dry branches in the forest. Yes, they are a little difficult to burn, but after starting the first fire, other wet branches begin to dry immediately. Dead tree branches can always be found. Especially around a big tree there are many of them. Their choice of cedar wood was for both easy fire-making and surveillance.

I disagree. Dead wood that has frozen water in it,. Is like pouring water on your own fire. There's many dead wood that is absolutely useless.

[ilahiyol]

I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.

Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire

If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!

Can I ask if  you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?

I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.

@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then  it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.

It is always possible to find dry branches in the forest. Yes, they are a little difficult to burn, but after starting the first fire, other wet branches begin to dry immediately. Dead tree branches can always be found. Especially around a big tree there are many of them. Their choice of cedar wood was for both easy fire-making and surveillance.

I disagree. Dead wood that has frozen water in it,. Is like pouring water on your own fire. There's many dead wood that is absolutely useless.

You are speaking illogically. Your opinion is: "No fire can be lit in the forest in winter." Such a thought cannot exist. Because fire was lit many times by people in the forest in winter. Yes it is difficult but not impossible.

[Ziljoe]

"You are speaking illogically. Your opinion is: "No fire can be lit in the forest in winter." Such a thought cannot exist. Because fire was lit many times by people in the forest in winter. Yes it is difficult but not impossible"

Then we have no disagreement.  But we should not assume, dead "wet"  wood on the ground will burn , especially if it's been left out all through the seasons?

It is not ,no fire can be  lit but there is a tipping point. Clothing can burn , easily, if it's dry. Put that clothing in water , then try to to light it? It won't burn,It's why out door survival skill and knowledge exist..

[Ziljoe]

It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.

Yes, it's always below zero at night, but you don't know for sure how many degrees it is. You don't know if it's -10 or -20. Experiment can be done easily..... At the end of January and beginning of February, measurements are made in the evening hours of 10 days and results can be obtained easily.

Where and what are the results? What's the warmest temperature recorded at the pass in January?

[ilahiyol]

It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.

Yes, it's always below zero at night, but you don't know for sure how many degrees it is. You don't know if it's -10 or -20. Experiment can be done easily..... At the end of January and beginning of February, measurements are made in the evening hours of 10 days and results can be obtained easily.

Where and what are the results? What's the warmest temperature recorded at the pass in January?

Buna göre Ocak/Şubat ayında çadır konumunda -5C ile -35C arasında herhangi bir yerde olabilir , aşırı, ancak günlük ortalamalar -15 ile -23C arasındadır. Bunlar gece sıcaklıkları....Gündüz sıcaklıkları için bunlara yaklaşık +10 derece koymalısınız.