curious about members on this board

[tenne]

Not sure where to put this but I am very curious how many on this board

have done a cross country skiing trip in these temps
have learned how to light a fire in the forest with matches in the dead of winter
have camped overnight at least in a tent in freezing weather
have cross country skied with a heavy back pack
have any survival experience with avalanches
have any survival experience with being in the forest in the winter at night, including snow shoes

I have done all the above, as children we are taught these things here

[GlennM]

Tenne wants a reality test. I do not have those credentials. I admire Tenne's experience. Others have experience too, but none have resolved the mystery. What is lacking, my friend?

[Ziljoe]

Not sure where to put this but I am very curious how many on this board

have done a cross country skiing trip in these temps
have learned how to light a fire in the forest with matches in the dead of winter
have camped overnight at least in a tent in freezing weather
have cross country skied with a heavy back pack
have any survival experience with avalanches
have any survival experience with being in the forest in the winter at night, including snow shoes

I have done all the above, as children we are taught these things here

have done a cross country skiing trip in these temps

I have, the sow consistency changed over 3 days. Some days easier. Others it stuck to skis

have learned how to light a fire in the forest with matches in the dead of winter..

Not dead of winter , but winter time. Mostly wet , which is a problem but can be done if you you know the natural materials and can establish a concentrated heat source

have camped overnight at least in a tent in freezing weather

Done that, oddly enough in an old canvas tent, no ground sheet. Definitely warmer than modern tents

 
have cross country skied with a heavy back pack

Nope.

have any survival experience with avalanches

Nope


have any survival experience with being in the forest in the winter at night, including snow shoes

Not with snow shoes.

[tenne]

Thank you for responding, its -33 here today and I had to run out in my housecoat to get the garbage to the curb because I slept in. Makes me so happy I quit tenting. LOL

My main memories of canvas tents are cold, damp, wet and heavy. They have to dry out totally as soon as they can or else they rot, and rolling them up after a night of people breathing inside and it freezing outside is NOT FUN. I remember how happy I was the very first time I bought a new nylon tent with the poles that are folded and attacked with elastic, I could put up an 8 man all my myself.

My longest continuous ski trip was 3 days and two nights and the snow didn't change but we were really high up in the mountains and the snow here is almost always dry and fluffy, but I've been on a few where it went from high up to down in the valley and the snow sure changes. Very important to bring the right wax, or it was when I was doing it. I don't know if they even wax skies anymore

We used the old wooden Huron snowshoes and they suck! it was easier to take them off and wade through the bush to get wood than deal with them in the trees. I put snowshoes in because they are very popular here, not the style I used but lots of people enjoy it for some strange reason.

[GlennM]

Tenne,  are you of the opinion that the cuts in the tent fabric had anything to do with the tent icing up? Further,  do you feel that the fluffier dry snow is required for the creation and the preservation of the DP9 snow footprints?

[tenne]

Tenne,  are you of the opinion that the cuts in the tent fabric had anything to do with the tent icing up? Further,  do you feel that the fluffier dry snow is required for the creation and the preservation of the DP9 snow footprints?

Not sure what you mean? did they have to cut themselves out because the tent was iced up? that would be a yes and a no, have to cut yes but that would be the ties not the tent

and I must have posted some how wrong, fluffy snow is the worst for preserving tracks, they just blow away. for the best, around here anyway, the snow needs to start melting and then freeze, like early spring or a Chinook.

[GlennM]

The footprints existed. So, by your reasoning,there must have been a melt and a freeze,, otherwise the prints would have been  blown away . I understand that the hikers came out of their tent and headed below in very bad weather. This would have covered or blown the prints away. If the snow had to melt and freeze, this would likely happen over a day and a night.This suggests some options

1. The conditions on Feb 2. were milder that we thought. They set the prints below freezing on the night of Feb 1. The sun came out Feb 2. a and melted the prints. The Nightnof Feb 2. The prints froze. After that, winds came again and,scoured the snow around the prints. They did not melt again and were discovered, or...
2. The prints were made on another day by others
3. The tracks on the snow were not tracks at all

What do you think?

[tenne]

The biggest problem I have with the footprints is it takes very specific conditions to form them here. So that is all I can account to.

I do not know the weather in Siberia well enough but here in western canada, we get a wind called the Chinook. it is a very warm wind that can suddenly raise temperatures from -10 to+2 (just to show the range) for a few hours to a few days then drop it down suddenly to well below freezing. So these conditions can happen really anytime but its not predictable and sporadic. Does that happen there?

If it does, then the prints could have happened at anytime because they are frozen water (ice prints) as far as I can tell and they will last until they melt. snow will fall and can be blown away but the prints will be there until the next melt

people used that mountain, they were not the only people in the area so they could have left them in the last melt freeze that year (last years would be melted unless the ice never melts there and if so I have no idea when)

so my answer is as far as I know those prints were made after snow fell and melted and would be there until the next melt

I'm sorry, that is the best I can do. That is why I have been spending the time not on this board doing experiments in socks and bare feet and snow. the only way I can get a raised frozen print like that is stepping in slush that refroze

[Почемучка]

I do not know the weather in Siberia well enough but here in western canada, we get a wind called the Chinook. it is a very warm wind that can suddenly raise temperatures from -10 to+2 (just to show the range) for a few hours to a few days then drop it down suddenly to well below freezing. So these conditions can happen really anytime but its not predictable and sporadic. Does that happen there?

А с чего Вы из Северного Урала - убежали в Сибирь?
Погода если Вы в курсе - определяется широтою и положением на континенте. Чем выше - широты, тем холоднее. Чем больше к центру -тем меньше влияние теплых воздушных масс и океанических течений. К Северному Уралу - теплый воздух приходит зимой по праздникам. Северный Ледовитый океан - не имеет теплых течений.

And why did you run away from the Northern Urals to Siberia?
The weather, if you know, is determined by latitude and position on the continent. The higher the latitude, the colder. The more to the center, the less the influence of warm air masses and ocean currents. To the Northern Urals - warm air comes in winter on holidays. The Arctic Ocean has no warm currents.

[GlennM]

Tenne, I thank you and your cold feet!  You imply a specific set of conditions. Yet, in another post, I read that the Arctic ocean does not permit the kind of warm breeze necessary. This is a problem! It appears that the foot prints do not imply foot dragging, a fireman's carry, the use of a walking stick or skis. From what I read, they just took a barefoot stroll in the snow. This is unlikely. I can imagine them fighting horizontally blowing snow at their backs in whiteout conditions, trying to make it to the woods for a fire. Even at that, I'd have my shoes on.

[Почемучка]

Tenne, I thank you and your cold feet! 

В России есть пословица насчет таких поступков автора темы. Дурная голова ногам покоя не дает.
Наши российские умы - сначала Гуглили в сети картинки таких следов-столбиков. Они действительно есть и в других местах на планете.
Такие следы могут оставаться даже после прогулки диких животных.




https://www.kp.ru/daily/26054/2965513/



In Russia, there is a proverb about such actions of the author of the topic. A bad head does not give rest to the legs.
Our Russian minds - first Googled pictures of such footprints on the web. They really are in other places on the planet.
Such traces can remain even after the walk of wild animals.

Вот самое популярное на уровень детского развития - объяснение. Переводить не буду. Там в картинках.
Here is the most popular explanation at the level of child development. I will not translate. It's in the pictures.
https://elementy.ru/nauchno-populyarnaya_biblioteka/434438/Pozitiv_i_negativ_na_belom_snegu

[Почемучка]

Yet, in another post, I read that the Arctic ocean does not permit the kind of warm breeze necessary.

У нас в школах детей десяти лет учат пониманию того, как формируется климат над всею планетою. Что значит континентальный и резко континентальный климат. Детей учат понимать - что такое перенос воздушных масс над всею планетою. Они знаю все течения океанические.
Я смотрю на рассуждения в теме других авторов и понимаю, что метеорологи - для кого-то: это волшебники...

In our schools, ten-year-old children are taught to understand how the climate is formed over the entire planet. What does continental and sharply continental climate mean. Children are taught to understand - what is the transfer of air masses over the entire planet. They know all ocean currents.
I look at the arguments in the topic of other authors and understand that meteorologists are for someone: they are wizards ...

[GlennM]

Thank you for the images and the comments. I certainly think a special set of conditions are needed to make those prints. Is it not unfortunate that the DP9 prints were not better documented?

[tenne]

It’s very disappointing that very little has been well documented about this case

[Почемучка]

Thank you for the images and the comments. I certainly think a special set of conditions are needed to make those prints. Is it not unfortunate that the DP9 prints were not better documented?

Жаль. И российские исследователи кипят праведным гневом на то, что следствие не поработало со следами как положено по криминалистическим правилам. Тем более сам Л.Н.Иванов был по должности прокурор-криминалист. Видимо принадлежность следов не вызывала сомнения. И это могло быть только если были какие-то свидетельские показания о сути происшествия.

Наши представители следствия в других случаях - даже сугроб вырезали вместе со следом из общего поля, если требовалось идентифицировать этот след и след был уликою.

It's a pity. And Russian researchers are seething with righteous anger at the fact that the investigation did not work with the traces as it should be according to forensic rules. Moreover, L.N. Ivanov himself was a forensic prosecutor by position. Apparently the belonging of the traces was not in doubt. And this could only be if there was some evidence about the essence of the incident.

[Manti]

So you mean Ivanov knew more than what's written in the case files?

[Почемучка]

So you mean Ivanov knew more than what's written in the case files?

Иванов Л.Н. проверил все имеющиеся версии. И записал в прекращении дела причиной - неодолимую стихийную силу.
Он даже пытался изучить психологический климат в группе, подозревая что незнакомый Золотарев - мог как-то спровоцировать сложности. Возможно, к концу расследования он получил знания о психологическом климате - более широкие. Например о том что Зина ушла в поход с разбитым сердцем от недавнего расставания с Юрой Дорошенко. Чувства, эмоции - это тоже неодолимая стихийная сила. На свете есть очень много печальных историй о любви. С гибелью всех тех, кто был втянут в этот круг неразрешимости и злого рока.

Ivanov L.N. checked all available versions. And he wrote down the reason for the termination of the case - an irresistible elemental force.
He even tried to study the psychological climate in the group, suspecting that the unfamiliar Zolotarev could somehow provoke difficulties. Perhaps, by the end of the investigation, he gained knowledge about the psychological climate - more extensive. For example, about the fact that Zina went camping with a broken heart from a recent breakup with Yura Doroshenko. Feelings, emotions - this is also an irresistible elemental force. There are many sad love stories in the world. With the death of all those who were drawn into this circle of insolubility and evil fate.

[GlennM]

Zina and Yura break up and then go camping with each other. What were they thinking? That is crazy.

[Почемучка]

Zina and Yura break up and then go camping with each other. What were they thinking? That is crazy.

У меня только одно решение. Юра Дорошенко был направлен в этот поход как на задание. Положим его сманили работать на КГБ. Обещая перспективу по карьере.
В те зимние студенческие каникулы только от УПИ в поход шло не менее 10 групп. Если не больше. Маршруты были не менее интересные, составы не менее знакомые. Зина была вписана с самого начала. Она - костяк и клей группы. Зачем надо было делать ей плохо? Только если так надо по работе.

I have only one solution. Yura Doroshenko was sent on this campaign as a mission. Let's say he was lured to work for the KGB. Promising career prospects.
In those winter student vacations, at least 10 groups went on a hike from UPI alone. If not more. The routes were no less interesting, the trains no less familiar. Zina was inscribed from the very beginning. She is the backbone and glue of the group. Why did she have to hurt her? Only if it's necessary for work.

[Manti]

What could be interesting for the KGB about a ski hiking trip to remote areas of the Urals?

I think sometimes when a couple breaks up, one of them wants to get back together. It looks like from the diaries it wasn't Zina. I'm not saying Yurka wanted to either, but maybe it's a reason to choose this hiking group instead of the ten others?

[Почемучка]

What could be interesting for the KGB about a ski hiking trip to remote areas of the Urals?

I think sometimes when a couple breaks up, one of them wants to get back together. It looks like from the diaries it wasn't Zina. I'm not saying Yurka wanted to either, but maybe it's a reason to choose this hiking group instead of the ten others?

Например - чтоб иностранные шпионы заинтересовались. Вы же в курсе про мою версию в игры внешних разведок?

Юра Дорошенко уже на вокзале в Свердловске, в день отправления в поход - гулял под ручку с другою девушкой, прощался. Это он что хотел показать? Если он хотел сделать старт отношениям - он бы уже в Вижае утянул Зину куда-то в уголок на объяснения. Но ничего не произошло. И она - не хочет одевать даже его варежки.
Ох, ну не любят мужчины читать личные девчачьи дневники ...

For example - so that foreign spies are interested. Are you aware of my version of foreign intelligence games?

Yura Doroshenko was already at the station in Sverdlovsk, on the day of departure for the campaign - walking hand in hand with another girl, saying goodbye. Is that what he wanted to show? If he wanted to start a relationship, he would have already dragged Zina somewhere in a corner in Vizhay for explanations. But nothing happened. And she - does not want to wear even his mittens.
Oh, well, men don't like to read girls' personal diaries...

[Manti]

For example - so that foreign spies are interested. Are you aware of my version of foreign intelligence games?

I am not aware, please share!

Yura Doroshenko was already at the station in Sverdlovsk, on the day of departure for the campaign - walking hand in hand with another girl, saying goodbye. Is that what he wanted to show? If he wanted to start a relationship, he would have already dragged Zina somewhere in a corner in Vizhay for explanations.

Hmm, I didn't know he was there with another girl. But yes, from it's clear Zina didn't want even his mittens. And maybe Yurka also didn't want anything then.

[Почемучка]

I am not aware, please share!

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1190.msg19320#msg19320

[Manti]

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1190.msg19320#msg19320

Ah, very interesting. Sorry I missed it - the thread it is in got really tedious so I didn't follow it.

I have some questions, also about the Finnish incident that you reference. But they would be off topic in this thread. I think your version deserves its own thread, and then I will ask there.

[sarapuk]

It’s very disappointing that very little has been well documented about this case

There is a lot of documentation about this case. And this Forum as covered much ground over the last few years.