ChatGPT on raised footprints

[Manti]

Me: what conditions are required for raised footprints to form in snow?
ChatGPT: Raised footprints in snow are typically formed when the snow is powdery and dry. This type of snow is known as "fluffy" or "powdery" snow. It is easy to compress and does not stick together well, which allows the snow to be pushed aside as someone walks through it. The snow needs to be cold enough to maintain its powdery consistency, otherwise it will be more wet and heavy and will not form raised footprints. The temperature and humidity also play a role in forming raised footprints in snow. Low humidity and low temperature are ideal conditions for the formation of raised footprints in snow.




Looks like the common wisdom that the snow needed to be wet and temperatures mild, is wrong?

[Ziljoe]

Me: what conditions are required for raised footprints to form in snow?
ChatGPT: Raised footprints in snow are typically formed when the snow is powdery and dry. This type of snow is known as "fluffy" or "powdery" snow. It is easy to compress and does not stick together well, which allows the snow to be pushed aside as someone walks through it. The snow needs to be cold enough to maintain its powdery consistency, otherwise it will be more wet and heavy and will not form raised footprints. The temperature and humidity also play a role in forming raised footprints in snow. Low humidity and low temperature are ideal conditions for the formation of raised footprints in snow.




Looks like the common wisdom that the snow needed to be wet and temperatures mild, is wrong?

Hi Manti

Who's chatGPT?

I think something's lost in the translation. It's the compressed snow that goes hard. The foot print  only looks raised after the surrounding softer/non compacted snow above and below the foot steps is blown away. I think....

I think he's describing a raised pile of snow.

[Ziljoe]

Or he's talking about raised footprints as in the detail of the markings of the actual boot print . If it was Powder it would be blown away.

[RMK]

Looks like the common wisdom that the snow needed to be wet and temperatures mild, is wrong?

I wouldn't be so sure.  ChatGPT sometimes outputs responses that are confident and articulate, but factually incorrect.  Did you ask it if it knows what raised footprints are in the first place?

[Manti]

Or he's talking about raised footprints as in the detail of the markings of the actual boot print . If it was Powder it would be blown away.

ChatGPT is an AI currently in public beta.

Looks like the common wisdom that the snow needed to be wet and temperatures mild, is wrong?

I wouldn't be so sure.  ChatGPT sometimes outputs responses that are confident and articulate, but factually incorrect.  Did you ask it if it knows what raised footprints are in the first place?

You are right... However in this case I think it might be correct:

[Manti]

Q: what are raised footprints?
Raised footprints refer to footprints that are elevated or raised above the surface on which they were made. This can be due to a variety of factors such as the type of surface, the weight of the person or animal making the footprint, and the amount of moisture in the soil or surface. Raised footprints can also be artificially created, such as through the use of molds or casts to preserve the shape of a footprint for scientific or forensic purposes.Q: I'm referring to those made in snowAh, I see. In the context of snow, raised footprints refer to footprints that are elevated above the surface of the snow. This can happen when the snow is soft and the person or animal making the footprint sinks into the snow, causing the snow to compress and form a raised edge around the footprint. The amount of compression and the height of the raised edge will depend on the weight of the person or animal, as well as the temperature and consistency of the snow. Raised footprints in snow can be useful for tracking animals, as well as for identifying and following the movements of people in snowy environments.Q: how about "footprint columns" that form when the surrounding snow is blown away by wind? what conditions are needed for these?"Footprint columns" or "sastrugi" are formed when strong winds blow over a snow-covered surface, eroding and shaping the snow into ridges and furrows. These can take the form of parallel lines or geometric patterns that resemble footprints, hence the name "footprint columns".
The conditions needed for the formation of sastrugi are:

• Strong winds: winds of at least 30-40 km/h (19-25 mph) are needed to erode and shape the snow.
• Consistency of snow: the snow needs to be hard and icy, as opposed to soft and powdery, as the wind can more easily blow away the softer snow.
• Direction of wind: the wind needs to blow in a consistent direction over a long period of time in order to create the parallel lines and patterns of sastrugi.

Sastrugi are commonly found in the polar and high altitude regions, where the snow is often hard and icy and the wind is consistently strong and blowing in a consistent direction. The formation of sastrugi can make it difficult for travelers, as the ridges and furrows can make for difficult terrain to traverse and can also hide crevasses in the snow.Q: can they form if the temperatures are mild ~ barely below freezing that it?Sastrugi can form under mild temperatures, but it is less likely as the formation of sastrugi depends primarily on the consistency of snow and wind conditions. If the temperatures are just barely below freezing, the snow is likely to be softer and more powdery, which will not support the formation of sastrugi. Sastrugi are typically formed in regions with colder temperatures where the snow is harder and more icy, and the wind is strong and consistent.
However, it is still possible for sastrugi to form under milder temperatures if the wind is strong and consistent enough to erode and shape the snow, and if the snow has a hard and icy consistency. But it will be less common than in colder regions where the snow is already hard and icy.
In addition, it is important to note that the temperature alone is not a determining factor for the formation of sastrugi, other factors such as the wind direction and speed, and the consistency of the snow play a more important role.

@Ziljoe you can try it here, it's a fascinating piece of tech: http://chat.openai.com/

[Manti]

Oh well, I can't edit my own posts now so can't fix the formatting... sorry about that ~ I should have used "Preview"...

[Ziljoe]

Thanks Manti, I appreciate it and the link .

[RMK]

Q: what are raised footprints?
Raised footprints refer to footprints that are elevated or raised above the surface on which they were made. This can be due to a variety of factors such as the type of surface, the weight of the person or animal making the footprint, and the amount of moisture in the soil or surface. Raised footprints can also be artificially created, such as through the use of molds or casts to preserve the shape of a footprint for scientific or forensic purposes.Q: I'm referring to those made in snowAh, I see. In the context of snow, raised footprints refer to footprints that are elevated above the surface of the snow. This can happen when the snow is soft and the person or animal making the footprint sinks into the snow, causing the snow to compress and form a raised edge around the footprint. The amount of compression and the height of the raised edge will depend on the weight of the person or animal, as well as the temperature and consistency of the snow. Raised footprints in snow can be useful for tracking animals, as well as for identifying and following the movements of people in snowy environments.Q: how about "footprint columns" that form when the surrounding snow is blown away by wind? what conditions are needed for these?"Footprint columns" or "sastrugi" are formed when strong winds blow over a snow-covered surface, eroding and shaping the snow into ridges and furrows. These can take the form of parallel lines or geometric patterns that resemble footprints, hence the name "footprint columns".
The conditions needed for the formation of sastrugi are:

• Strong winds: winds of at least 30-40 km/h (19-25 mph) are needed to erode and shape the snow.
• Consistency of snow: the snow needs to be hard and icy, as opposed to soft and powdery, as the wind can more easily blow away the softer snow.
• Direction of wind: the wind needs to blow in a consistent direction over a long period of time in order to create the parallel lines and patterns of sastrugi.

Sastrugi are commonly found in the polar and high altitude regions, where the snow is often hard and icy and the wind is consistently strong and blowing in a consistent direction. The formation of sastrugi can make it difficult for travelers, as the ridges and furrows can make for difficult terrain to traverse and can also hide crevasses in the snow.Q: can they form if the temperatures are mild ~ barely below freezing that it?Sastrugi can form under mild temperatures, but it is less likely as the formation of sastrugi depends primarily on the consistency of snow and wind conditions. If the temperatures are just barely below freezing, the snow is likely to be softer and more powdery, which will not support the formation of sastrugi. Sastrugi are typically formed in regions with colder temperatures where the snow is harder and more icy, and the wind is strong and consistent.
However, it is still possible for sastrugi to form under milder temperatures if the wind is strong and consistent enough to erode and shape the snow, and if the snow has a hard and icy consistency. But it will be less common than in colder regions where the snow is already hard and icy.
In addition, it is important to note that the temperature alone is not a determining factor for the formation of sastrugi, other factors such as the wind direction and speed, and the consistency of the snow play a more important role.

Interesting.

[GlennM]

So, what this gets down to is (1) were the conditions right for the DP9 or (2) were the conditions right for someone else.

Next, if Teddy is right, are raised prints made by boots, and when? We need archival weather data for Feb. 1959.

[Missi]

The first indication could be this: https://dyatlovpass.com/burmantovo-weather-february-1959
I must admit, that I don't understand much of it.

As for the wind: From what I've seen in pictures and videos, I'd say that the conditions necessary by the wind, are always met...

[Manti]

Basically I used to believe that it was very cold, around -30, that night and because they had a single layer canvas tent, stove was not used, they had no sleeping bags, and no possibility of a campfire near the tent, trying to spend the night on the slope in itself would have been deadly. This is why I was interested in conditions needed to form the "raised footprints", as some have suggested that it needs "warm" / near 0C temperatures so the snow is a bit wet. Well, some sources on the internet suggest otherwise, although it looks like raised footprints form in some of the dryest as well as wettest cold places on earth, from Antarctica to Scotland...

However, given the current weather near the pass, which is "warm", it looks like my original assumption might be wrong and maybe spending a night without a stove was not in itself that dangerous.

[RMK]

I had a good chat with ChaptGPT:

Q:  Do you know anything about "raised footprints" in snow?

A:  "Raised footprints" in snow could refer to a few different things, such as tracks left by animals or people in snow that have been compressed and raised above the surrounding snow surface. It could also refer to a technique used in tracking wildlife, where a person will walk in a specific pattern, such as a zig-zag, to create raised footprints that are easier for others to follow. Can you please provide more context or clarify what you are asking about?

Q:  I am talking about human footprints that, due to snow and weather conditions, end up sticking above the surface of surrounding snow.  The reason why they form is that the weight of the person compacts the snow underfoot, and then, wind blows away the loose snow around the compacted snow.

A:  Yes, that is a common phenomenon that occurs when someone walks on snow that has not been compacted or has only a small amount of new snow fall. The weight of the person will compact the snow under their feet, creating a denser area. Then, if the wind is blowing, it will blow away the loose snow around the compacted area, leaving the footprints raised above the surrounding surface. This can make it easier to track someone's movements through a snowy area.

Q:  Do you know anything about raised footprints in the case of the Dyatlov Pass Incident?

A:  The Dyatlov Pass incident refers to a tragic event in which nine hikers died in the Ural Mountains of Russia in 1959. The hikers, all students and alumni of Ural Polytechnic Institute, were on a trek to Otorten mountain when something caused them to abandon their tent in the middle of the night and flee into the snowy wilderness. Despite an extensive search, the hikers' bodies were not found until several weeks later, and the circumstances of their deaths remain a mystery.

There were raised footprints found near the site of the incident, which some have suggested may have been caused by the hikers fleeing in a panicked state and stamping down the snow as they ran. However, the exact cause of the raised footprints and their relationship to the incident is still a subject of speculation and debate among those who have studied the case.

It's worth to mention that the official explanation for the incident was an 'unknown compelling force', but there are many theories about what might have happened, from an avalanche to a military accident to an attack by the indigenous Mansi people.

Q:  Do you know anything specific about the snow and weather conditions that are required for raised footprints to form?

A:  The specific snow and weather conditions that are required for raised footprints to form are generally characterized by a few key factors:

• A relatively thin layer of freshly fallen snow, typically less than a few inches, covering a harder, more compacted layer of snow.
• A strong wind blowing in the direction of the footprints, which will blow away the loose snow around the compacted area, leaving the footprints raised above the surrounding surface.

The snow has to be a certain type of snow to form the raised footprints, the snow needs to be powdery, not wet and heavy. The wind should be blowing in the direction of the footprints, which will blow away the loose snow around the compacted area, leaving the footprints raised above the surrounding surface.

It's worth noting that the conditions have to be right for the phenomenon to be visible, raised footprints can form even if the wind is not blowing, and the snow is not powdery, but in those cases, the phenomenon would not be visible and the footprints would look like any other footprints in the snow.

It does not seem to give a consistent answer about the snow conditions.  Also, the last sentence betrays some degree of misunderstanding the concept of "raised footprints."

I then invited it to speculate about what caused the Incident, but its reply is noncommittal:

Q:  What do you think caused the Dyatlov Pass Incident?

A:  The exact cause of the Dyatlov Pass incident remains a mystery and is still the subject of speculation and debate among those who have studied the case. The official explanation for the incident was an "unknown compelling force", but there are many theories about what might have happened.

Some of the most popular theories include:

• An avalanche: Some have suggested that an avalanche may have caused the hikers to flee in a panicked state, leading to their deaths.
• Military accident: Some have suggested that the hikers may have accidentally stumbled upon a secret military testing site and been killed as a result.
• Attack by the indigenous Mansi people: Some have suggested that the hikers may have been attacked by the indigenous Mansi people, who were known to be hostile to outsiders.
• Hypothermia and panic: Some have suggested that the hikers may have become disoriented and panicked due to hypothermia and other harsh weather conditions, leading to their deaths.
• Infrasound: Some have suggested that the hikers may have been affected by infrasound, a low-frequency sound that can cause disorientation, panic, and other symptoms.

It's worth noting that many of these theories have been debunked, or lack solid evidence to support them. Despite the many theories, it is still unknown what exactly happened on that fateful night in the Dyatlov Pass.

[Manti]

It mentioned a theory to me I haven't heard of before: wet snow avalanche:

Q: how can an avalanche kill 9 people but leave the tent they were sleeping in intact?

An avalanche can be a powerful and destructive force, but it is not typical for an avalanche to kill multiple people while leaving their tent intact. In the case of the Dyatlov Pass incident, the hikers were found dead outside of their tent, and the tent itself showed no signs of damage from an avalanche. This is one of the reasons why the official explanation of hypothermia as the cause of death has been called into question.It's possible that the hikers were caught in a slush avalanche, which is a wet snow avalanche that can happen when there is a rapid warming and the snow becomes heavy, it can move with less energy, and can be less destructive than a dry snow avalanche. However, this is just one of many theories that have been proposed to explain the incident, and there is no concrete evidence to support it.
Another theory is that the hikers were caught in a "dry snow slab" avalanche. This type of avalanche, typically caused by a layer of weak snow on top of a stronger layer, can cause a sudden collapse of the snowpack and can be very destructive. But even in this case, the tent should have been buried or destroyed by the avalanche.
It's important to keep in mind that the death of the Dyatlov hikers remains a mystery and the true cause of their death remains unknown.

[Missi]

That's interesting. I watched some videos on youtube to get an idea, what a slush avalanche is. That sound would definitely get me out of a tent and at least look at what's happening.

[Tony]

Noticed a lot have already stated that wind plays the most significant role in raised footprints (something the ai fails to mention). There is a trail near my house that I often walk. It's about a 2-mile long stretch of dirt road that ends near a canyon that sees a lot of high winds. In the winter there is significant snow fall. If the trail hasn't seen snow for a while, the high winds will blow away loose snow leaving compressed footprints of those walking the trail. Below is a close-up of a raised print.




When the conditions are right there are hundreds of these leading to and from the canyon (high wind area) and disappear the further you get from the canyon.

[Manti]

Based on that footprint, I wouldn't be able to tell if it was left by someone wearing a boot or just in socks.

[Missi]

Based on that footprint, I wouldn't be able to tell if it was left by someone wearing a boot or just in socks.

I wouldn't be able to tell in which direction they were going, either.

But maybe it's possible if you're more acquainted with foodprints in general and snow prints in particular...

[GlennM]

Geddie paid an expert who opined that a boot heel strike was among the DP9 prints. Do we have any member examples of a boot heel strike in a raised print? I am always skeptical about snow prints. I keep recalling the abominable snowman prints that actually were from a snow leopard.
 

[GlennM]

If ChatGPT was given a query like, " how can I differentiate a violent assault on a person by an animal from a violent on a person by another person?" Do you think something novel may emerge?