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Author Topic: Slobodin's Injuries  (Read 38127 times)

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February 13, 2023, 12:06:36 AM
Reply #30
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Ziljoe


Dam the lack of editting . I sent this before I had finished.


This is a better explanation than I can do. I have translated this for ease. From forensic examination.


With a long stay of the corpse in conditions of low temperature (below 0 ° C), tissue freezing occurs. It is superficial and complete. Freezing of brain tissues in some cases leads to an increase in brain volume with subsequent cracking of the skull bones.and seam separation. When cracking the bones of the skull, post-mortem ruptures can occur, the skin in the area of ​​​​which is saturated with hemolyzed blood, which can be mistaken for intravital traumatic brain injury. Divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to glaciation of the substance of the brain occur in those cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze through (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold). In other cases, the “wedging” of the freezing brain into the large occipital foramen occurs (if there is no headdress, and the neck is wrapped in a scarf), while the divergence of the seams is not observed.


A case study below.

Mr. N., aged 18, froze to death in a field during a snowstorm. His body was found 26 days later.

The posture of the corpse is typical of death from cold - the head and torso are slightly tilted forward, the arms are bent and the fists are located below the chin, the legs are slightly bent at the knee and hip joints.

There were many small brown-red abrasions and scratches on the face and back of the hands. No other damage was found on external examination.


In the soft integuments of the occipital and adjoining parts of the parietal region on the right, there are two moderate hemorrhages 3 × 4 cm. On the bones of the cranial vault, from the right parietal tubercle to a point located 2 cm above the outer end of the left superciliary arch, there is an arcuate fissure with uneven edges 17 cm long, the bulge of which was, on the left, slightly below the upper temporal line. The greatest width of the crack was 0.1 cm. The thickness of the bones along the crack was 0.3–0.4 cm. There were no additional cracks along the edge of the inner bone plate. There were no hemorrhages in the soft tissues along the crack.

According to the crack, there were ruptures of the dura mater: 0.7 cm long, 2.5 cm and ... cm long, separated by narrow bridges.


to continue

Diagnosis of the postmortem origin of cracks in the bones of the skull can be difficult, especially in the presence of significant putrefactive changes.

In this case, the following were taken into account: the localization of the crack, the remoteness and insignificance of hemorrhages in the soft tissues of the head, the absence of additional damage to the inner plate of bones along the edges, cracks and hemorrhages in the surrounding tissues in the presence of ruptures of the dura mater.

This led to the conclusion that an isolated crack in the bones of the cranial vault arose posthumously, due to the freezing of the corpse.

I would say it's similar to Rustem injuries
 
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February 13, 2023, 02:15:17 AM
Reply #31
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anna_pycckux


By all indications, Rustem died in a fight: his face is completely covered with a hematoma. 2 cracks in the skull, traces of dried blood are visible from the hole in the nose. Hemorrhage under the bones of the skull, the brain looks like a shapeless mass. These injuries were sustained during life.
On the face - dog bites (?) and traces of dog claws??


 

February 13, 2023, 02:25:12 AM
Reply #32
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anna_pycckux


photos for comparison

.

 

February 13, 2023, 04:33:19 AM
Reply #33
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Ziljoe


Hi Anna

Which photo is this? When did Rustem get two cracks in the skull? I don't see dog bites unfortunately and I definitely can't see the brain.?
 
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February 13, 2023, 07:09:24 AM
Reply #34
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GlennM


There were probably not the same dogs that took exception to exiting the helicopter.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 
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February 13, 2023, 12:28:40 PM
Reply #35
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eurocentric


How someone can suggest a man had a broken nose, a bite to his face and his brain was a shapeless mass, just from looking at an old photo is a bigger mystery than the DPI itself. The pathologist would make these observations if they applied, but significantly, he did not.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 13, 2023, 01:21:55 PM
Reply #36
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anna_pycckux


Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
 ….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color
 

February 13, 2023, 01:29:10 PM
Reply #37
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anna_pycckux


Which photo is this? When did Rustem get two cracks in the skull? I don't see dog bites unfortunately and I definitely can't see the brain.?
А я не вижу в Рустеме человека мирно замерзшего из-за плохой погоды.

I don't see Rustem as a person peacefully frozen due to bad weather.
 

February 13, 2023, 01:53:29 PM
Reply #38
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ilahiyol


Yes, there is a bite mark in the photo. But there is only the upper jaw bite. No lower jaw bites??? However, bites must have both upper and lower jaw bites. Or did the dog have no lower jaw teeth? Or how does it bite? Assassins didn't need dogs to kill them either. They just had to have weapons. And the dog reveals the presence of assassins from afar. And dogs are useless if tracking isn't necessary. And they reveal your presence. So the dog version is a very remote possibility.
 
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February 13, 2023, 02:07:52 PM
Reply #39
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Ziljoe


Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
 ….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color

Hi Anna, could you give the link for this quote?
 

February 13, 2023, 02:12:58 PM
Reply #40
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anna_pycckux


And dogs are useless if tracking isn't necessary. And they reveal your presence. So the dog version is a very remote possibility.
The liquidators need dogs so that tourists cannot escape. Zina, Igor, and Krivonischenko have dog bites.

.

 


February 13, 2023, 03:04:41 PM
Reply #42
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RMK


Hi Anna, could you give the link for this quote?
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-slobodina-rustema
Ziljoe, she's just quoting from Slobodin's autopsy report.  However, she's not quoting Teddy's translation of same, to which I link in the preceding sentence.
 

February 13, 2023, 03:38:01 PM
Reply #43
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Ziljoe


Thank you again RMK, your more useful than Google!

The reports do not talk about dog bites Anna. Plus the brain being a shapeless mass is nothing to do with an attack.

Rustem only has one fracture.
 
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February 13, 2023, 05:21:26 PM
Reply #44
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GlennM


There is a science experiment which dramatically proves the point. A hollow iron ball can be filled with water, sealed and frozen. It will break, loudly.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 
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February 13, 2023, 10:08:52 PM
Reply #45
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anna_pycckux


The reports do not talk about dog bites Anna. Plus the brain being a shapeless mass is nothing to do with an attack.
Yes, the medical examiner does not write anything about dog bites. Don't forget, he wasn't independent, although he tried to write the truth. The presence of dogs on the pass is my unique research, which was included in the book ©, which explains the many lacerations on the hands and faces. And this proves the presence of outsiders during the tragedy. And proves the criminal version. The military, of course, had fighting dogs.
Please refer to my name when repeating the material. ©
 

February 13, 2023, 10:14:50 PM
Reply #46
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anna_pycckux


There is a science experiment which dramatically proves the point. A hollow iron ball can be filled with water, sealed and frozen. It will break, loudly.

Why didn't the other guys' skulls burst under the same conditions? Why is Thibault's skull smashed into meat?! Because there was a "BATTLE AT CEDAR" with liquidators who carried out the order to freeze tourists.©
 

February 14, 2023, 04:52:45 AM
Reply #47
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Ziljoe


There is a science experiment which dramatically proves the point. A hollow iron ball can be filled with water, sealed and frozen. It will break, loudly.

Why didn't the other guys' skulls burst under the same conditions? Why is Thibault's skull smashed into meat?! Because there was a "BATTLE AT CEDAR" with liquidators who carried out the order to freeze tourists.©

Read this Anna.

With a long stay of the corpse in conditions of low temperature (below 0 ° C), tissue freezing occurs. It is superficial and complete. Freezing of brain tissues in some cases leads to an increase in brain volume with subsequent cracking of the skull bones.and seam separation. When cracking the bones of the skull, post-mortem ruptures can occur, the skin in the area of ​​​​which is saturated with hemolyzed blood, which can be mistaken for intravital traumatic brain injury. Divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to glaciation of the substance of the brain occur in those cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze through (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold). In other cases, the “wedging” of the freezing brain into the large occipital foramen occurs (if there is no headdress, and the neck is wrapped in a scarf), while the divergence of the seams is not observed.

The link to the above.
http://www.medical-enc.ru/sudmed/obshhee-ohlazhdenie-2.shtml

In this part, it explains what can happen by logical science.

 

"Freezing of brain tissues in some cases leads to an increase in brain volume with subsequent cracking of the skull bones.and seam separation."

The brain and fluids expand when freezing forcing the skull to crack or fracture.


"can be mistaken for intravital traumatic brain injury"

This means it can be mistaken that injuries happened when the individual was alive

"Divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to glaciation of the substance of the brain occur in those cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze through"

In this part it explains that it happens when the neck freeze's first, before glaciation (freezing) of the brain. It so happens that Rustems neck was exposed whilst he was wearing a hat , his hat will be an insulator to heat loss, thus allowing the fluids in the neck to freeze first. The ice bed was recorded under Rustem which again evidences that he died where he was found.



Mr. N., aged 18, froze to death in a field during a snowstorm. His body was found 26 days later.

The posture of the corpse is typical of death from cold - the head and torso are slightly tilted forward, the arms are bent and the fists are located below the chin, the legs are slightly bent at the knee and hip joints.

There were many small brown-red abrasions and scratches on the face and back of the hands. No other damage was found on external examination.

In the soft integuments of the occipital and adjoining parts of the parietal region on the right, there are two moderate hemorrhages 3 × 4 cm. On the bones of the cranial vault, from the right parietal tubercle to a point located 2 cm above the outer end of the left superciliary arch, there is an arcuate fissure with uneven edges 17 cm long, the bulge of which was, on the left, slightly below the upper temporal line. The greatest width of the crack was 0.1 cm. The thickness of the bones along the crack was 0.3–0.4 cm. There were no additional cracks along the edge of the inner bone plate. There were no hemorrhages in the soft tissues along the crack.

According to the crack, there were ruptures of the dura mater: 0.7 cm long, 2.5 cm and ... cm long, separated by narrow bridges.

There were no hemorrhages in the substance of the brain and under its membranes. The brain retained its appearance only on the surface, while its main substance inside turned into a easily soiled spreading mass without a putrid odor

Histological examination of the brain revealed multiple small voids of round, oval and irregular shape, spasmodic vessels, in places with hemolyzed blood. From the side of other internal organs, no pathology was found. There were no Vishnevsky spots on the gastric mucosa.

Diagnosis of the postmortem origin of cracks in the bones of the skull can be difficult, especially in the presence of significant putrefactive changes.

In this case, the following were taken into account: the localization of the crack, the remoteness and insignificance of hemorrhages in the soft tissues of the head, the absence of additional damage to the inner plate of bones along the edges, cracks and hemorrhages in the surrounding tissues in the presence of ruptures of the dura mater.

This led to the conclusion that an isolated crack in the bones of the cranial vault arose posthumously, due to the freezing of the corpse.


The link to the above the case study.
https://www.forens-med.ru/book.php?id=1693
( I give all give all credit to Igor B )


@Anna, the other guy's skulls didn't burst as they didn't freeze the same way. Hope the above helps. It gives us a plausible explanation. 
 

February 14, 2023, 06:19:33 AM
Reply #48
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amashilu

Global Moderator
" ... The brain and fluids expand when freezing, forcing the skull to crack or fracture."

I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system.  afraid7
 

February 14, 2023, 06:40:46 AM
Reply #49
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anna_pycckux


The divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to the glaciation of the brain matter occur in cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold).
.

Zina had 2 warm hats and no scarves. The skull is intact.
Rustem was not wearing a hat (according to the medical examiner), there was no scarf. Slobodin, in addition to a crack in the skull, has discrepancies in the bones of the skull. Look at Rustem's posthumous photo - he was killed in a fight, beaten, bitten by dogs.
 

February 14, 2023, 06:51:13 AM
Reply #50
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Ziljoe


" ... The brain and fluids expand when freezing, forcing the skull to crack or fracture."

I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system.  afraid7

For you amashilu thanky1 obviously this is the extreme

 

February 14, 2023, 07:01:53 AM
Reply #51
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Ziljoe


The divergence of the sutures of the skull and even fractures of the bones of the cranial vault due to the glaciation of the brain matter occur in cases when the organs and tissues of the neck first freeze (for example, there is a headdress on the head of the deceased, and the neck remains unprotected from the effects of cold).
.

Zina had 2 warm hats and no scarves. The skull is intact.
Rustem was not wearing a hat (according to the medical examiner), there was no scarf. Slobodin, in addition to a crack in the skull, has discrepancies in the bones of the skull. Look at Rustem's posthumous photo - he was killed in a fight, beaten, bitten by dogs.

It's not an exact science Anna. You like using photos , Rustem is wearing a hat where they find his body. There is no evidence of dogs or being bitten, as for a fight there is no direct evidence.

Zina's neck was covered by her clothing/hood and it doesn't happen everytime. Read the links. It explains that caution must be given when assuming cause of injuries. Things aren't always what they seem.
 

February 14, 2023, 07:28:10 AM
Reply #52
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GlennM


The elephant in the room is that if you wish to escape from soldiers with their barking dogs, you recede into the woods, not climb onto a barren slope day or night. Dogs, and even their handlers are smarter than that.

If a DPI researcher thinks the hits he and others recieved were from assassins, then follow the money. Someone spent and someone earned money. There is a paper trail.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 14, 2023, 10:19:12 AM
Reply #53
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RMK


I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system.  afraid7
Water is really unusual in that it expands when it transitions from liquid to solid state (really, it starts to expand as it cools from 4°C to 0°C).
 
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February 14, 2023, 10:32:52 AM
Reply #54
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anna_pycckux


The elephant in the room is that if you wish to escape from soldiers with their barking dogs, you recede into the woods, not climb onto a barren slope day or night. Dogs, and even their handlers are smarter than that.
If a DPI researcher thinks the hits he and others recieved were from assassins, then follow the money. Someone spent and someone earned money. There is a paper trail.
1. от собак не убежать! Ребята бросились к  кедру и какое-то время спасались на кедре. Но пришлось спуститься. Думаю, Зина осталась на кедре и кедр ее спас. Она погибла последней от замерзания.

2.насчет денег вы правы на все 100!!!! Свердловская власть со страшной силой боялась потерять свою денежную должность!! Если бы в УПИ повторилась конференция 56 или туристы сбежали на запад (как было указано  в ЛОЖНЫХ доносах - то Кириленко потерял бы должность и деньги и власть и карьеру!! Я об этом много раз повторяла!!!

1. there is no getting away from dogs! The guys rushed to the cedar and for a while escaped on the cedar. But they had to go down. I think Zina stayed on cedar, and cedar saved her. She died last from freezing.

2. you are 100% right about the money!!!! The Sverdlovsk authorities were terribly afraid of losing their money position!! If UPI had repeated the conference 56 or the tourists had fled to the west (as indicated in the FALSE denunciations - then Kirilenko would have lost his position, money, power and career!! I've said it many times!!!
 

February 14, 2023, 10:43:53 AM
Reply #55
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anna_pycckux


about money.
The head of the Sverdlovsk region Kirilenko in 1962 rose to the very top of power in Moscow, in the Kremlin.
Being old, he didn't want to retire. Quote from Kirilenko: "I fought for my place every day until the last!!" He didn't want to be ordinary, poor and disenfranchised. Kirilenko's words are underlined in the screenshot.

 

February 14, 2023, 10:50:55 AM
Reply #56
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anna_pycckux


Кириленко А П. - в 1959 году - глава Свердловского обкома. Отвечал за все, что творилось в его области.
Kirilenko A. P. - in 1959 - the head of the Sverdlovsk Regional Committee. He was responsible for everything that was happening in his area.

 

February 14, 2023, 11:04:28 AM
Reply #57
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amashilu

Global Moderator
I am so accustomed to thinking of cold as contracting, and warmth as expanding, that this concept is hard for me to fit into my logic system.  afraid7
Water is really unusual in that it expands when it transitions from liquid to solid state (really, it starts to expand as it cools from 4°C to 0°C).

Just amazing. I feel like I should have known that, but I was probably sleeping in physics class when the subject came up.
 
Does brain tissue act the same as water? I know there is "some percentage" of water in the brain, but is there enough to make the whole brain expand and crack when freezing?
 

February 14, 2023, 12:28:15 PM
Reply #58
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eurocentric


Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
 ….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color

Context is everything. You have been posting photo's of Rustem's frozen face to suggest that he had been so badly beaten that he was unrecognisable. You then suggested he had a broken nose, which he didn't. You've suggested he had a bite to his face, and any pathologist would identify such a wound as a bite, even if they sometimes cannot determine if it was human or animal. And then you're trying to imply that Rustem's head was so badly caved in that his brain was an unshapen mass, physically brain damaged, beaten to a pulp.

The pathologist didn't find this, it is true that he recorded the lack of shape (in English it's translated as an unformed mass, which means broadly the same thing) but the pathologist also describes the rest of Rustem's skull as intact, apart from his fracture so external impact cannot explain that. Some of the other hikers had brain tissues described as a jelly-like mass, this is because the brain soon turns to mush after death, and this was 3 weeks on, it doesn't mean they were all beaten about the head with a KGB baseball bat to mishapen their brains - which is implicitly what you are trying to suggest.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 14, 2023, 02:00:51 PM
Reply #59
Offline

Ziljoe


Forensic examination of R. Slobodin.
LD 97
In the area of abrasions and scratches on the face, hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues is noted…
...on the back of the nose and in the area of the tip of the nose, soft tissues of a brownish color. At the tip of the nose is a soft tissue area under a dry brown-brown crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm ....there are traces of dried blood secretions from the nasal openings.
LD 99
 ….the frontal bone section has a bone crack with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, the crack length is up to 6 cm. The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm, from the swept seam. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the area of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right ...
The substance of the brain is a shapeless mass of greenish red color

Context is everything. You have been posting photo's of Rustem's frozen face to suggest that he had been so badly beaten that he was unrecognisable. You then suggested he had a broken nose, which he didn't. You've suggested he had a bite to his face, and any pathologist would identify such a wound as a bite, even if they sometimes cannot determine if it was human or animal. And then you're trying to imply that Rustem's head was so badly caved in that his brain was an unshapen mass, physically brain damaged, beaten to a pulp.

The pathologist didn't find this, it is true that he recorded the lack of shape (in English it's translated as an unformed mass, which means broadly the same thing) but the pathologist also describes the rest of Rustem's skull as intact, apart from his fracture so external impact cannot explain that. Some of the other hikers had brain tissues described as a jelly-like mass, this is because the brain soon turns to mush after death, and this was 3 weeks on, it doesn't mean they were all beaten about the head with a KGB baseball bat to mishapen their brains - which is implicitly what you are trying to suggest.

The brain expansion is in the links in this post . Forensic science.

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1378.msg22258#msg22258