Was that really the labaz?

[amashilu]

https://dyatlovpass.com/there-was-no-labaz?rbid=18461

Just posted by Teddy a couple days ago, this very interesting piece is a big relief for me to read. I always thought digging a hole in the snow and piling your extra food in it, is the most amateur cache idea ever. Would they really have done that? I don't think so.

[Ziljoe]

https://dyatlovpass.com/there-was-no-labaz?rbid=18461

Just posted by Teddy a couple days ago, this very interesting piece is a big relief for me to read. I always thought digging a hole in the snow and piling your extra food in it, is the craziest, most amateur cache idea ever. Would they really have done that? I don't think so.

I'm confused. I thought that it's been suggested that the last photos of them digging the hole for the tent on the slope 1079 was potential for the labaz?

Also, thinking laterally, the labaz for the Mansi v the hikers are of different concepts. If it's packaged food. Salt, sugar, along with mandolin, boots, socks etc, it's to lighten the load. Not fresh meat to be eaten by animals. Given the fact that Wolverine's climb trees and can chew through most things , I'm confused by Mansi labaz. Maybe smells had been added to the gator as suggested?. If Igor had left his ski boots at the labaz then it may be the reasons for marks around his ankles ?. Also to bury the food adds insulation ? The were so close to their destination and return that to carry supplies any further would surly be a waste of energy?

[Teddy]

This is most probably teh labaz form the photos in 1959 but i don't believe it was left by the Dyatlov group.

I'm confused. I thought that it's been suggested that the last photos of them digging the hole for the tent on the slope 1079 was potential for the labaz?

If you don't have trees and nothing but a slope you dig a hole in the snow. But not if the labaz was in the forest.
If you look at the Dyatlov's intended route back if he wasn't sure if he is going to have the time to continue to Oyko Chakur to meet with the Karelin group then where the tent was found makes a perfect spot for the labaz so no matter which way they go they don't have to loose altitude to recover their supplies.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ir_5s1TxKPbmckWlLdNRzfqb5ZE&usp=sharing

[eurocentric]

Where's the snow spoil if this was a hole being used to bury something?

The hikers are digging with ski poles, and would remove material with their hands (18 skis are shown planted in the snow above them). There's at least 4 others in that trench besides Yuri K, which allowing for a turning circle, bending room, equates to a length appoaching tent proportions.

They would attempt to lever up chunks of snow and then lift up large pieces of the snow crust, this isn't freshly fallen stuff which is 95% air, it's denser, and had lain there most of the winter. The rescue photo's show such chunky stuff further down the slope from the tent.

These should be retained when burying something, piled up near the edge of the downhill side, or they are making more work for themselves. Instead Yuri K is able to stand on that very area and his feet sink only a couple of inches. Therefore the snow seems to be being rolled away downhill, out of camera shot.

Making a labaz at 3000ft risks so many things, the ground could freeze solid if temperatures drop and be like concrete to dig up again upon your return, or the weather deteriorates to the point where you are risking your life trying to do so in high winds or a whiteout. It makes far more sense to make a labaz near where you intend to make a return camp.

[Ziljoe]

This is most probably teh labaz form the photos in 1959 but i don't believe it was left by the Dyatlov group.

I'm confused. I thought that it's been suggested that the last photos of them digging the hole for the tent on the slope 1079 was potential for the labaz?

If you don't have trees and nothing but a slope you dig a hole in the snow. But not if the labaz was in the forest.
If you look at the Dyatlov's intended route back if he wasn't sure if he is going to have the time to continue to Oyko Chakur to meet with the Karelin group then where the tent was found makes a perfect spot for the labaz so no matter which way they go they don't have to loose altitude to recover their supplies.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1ir_5s1TxKPbmckWlLdNRzfqb5ZE&usp=sharing

I'm a bit of a mixed bag on this. Let me try to explain. The distances are somewhat negligible. If you suggest that the last photos (2) was the labaz being dug. I would not climb the slope to gain 1.5 km distance to leave the the cache.on a random slope where, given weather conditions on the return journey could leave you searching. There is no guarantee of the conditions where you have to dig up supplies, exposed. This means digging snow for the cache, ( if you can find it). Unpacking your back packs, repacking in unknown return conditions for the sake of 1.5 km. To me it's illogical to leave yourself vulnerable. The wood/ treeline is more sensible , as you return, you settle for the night. Logs for the stove , food, repack where the cache is., You don't add that work on an exposed slope, re pack and then find a new camp for the night. You are adding work and unnecessary variables that could be to your detriment. ,

Secondly, if we can believe that the last two photos are from the DP9 expedition. That hole is way too big for storing 55kg of supplies given at least 4 hikers are  waste high and the trench is over a minimum of 2 meters long?

The distances are now really small. 1 mile to forest, 6 miles to the intended return point?

I'm not sure where the last indented pitch would be in the woods to climb Mt Otorten. Surly they wouldn't carry everything with them?

[Ziljoe]

Where's the snow spoil if this was a hole being used to bury something?

The hikers are digging with ski poles, and would remove material with their hands (18 skis are shown planted in the snow above them). There's at least 4 others in that trench besides Yuri K, which allowing for a turning circle, bending room, equates to a length appoaching tent proportions.

They would attempt to lever up chunks of snow and then lift up large pieces of the snow crust, this isn't freshly fallen stuff which is 95% air, it's denser, and had lain there most of the winter. The rescue photo's show such chunky stuff further down the slope from the tent.

These should be retained when burying something, piled up near the edge of the downhill side, or they are making more work for themselves. Instead Yuri K is able to stand on that very area and his feet sink only a couple of inches. Therefore the snow seems to be being rolled away downhill, out of camera shot.

Making a labaz at 3000ft risks so many things, the ground could freeze solid if temperatures drop and be like concrete to dig up again upon your return, or the weather deteriorates to the point where you are risking your life trying to do so in high winds or a whiteout. It makes far more sense to make a labaz near where you intend to make a return camp.

My thoughts a similar , posts crossed..

[eurocentric]

Where's the snow spoil if this was a hole being used to bury something?

The hikers are digging with ski poles, and would remove material with their hands (18 skis are shown planted in the snow above them). There's at least 4 others in that trench besides Yuri K, which allowing for a turning circle, bending room, equates to a length appoaching tent proportions.

They would attempt to lever up chunks of snow and then lift up large pieces of the snow crust, this isn't freshly fallen stuff which is 95% air, it's denser, and had lain there most of the winter. The rescue photo's show such chunky stuff further down the slope from the tent.

These should be retained when burying something, piled up near the edge of the downhill side, or they are making more work for themselves. Instead Yuri K is able to stand on that very area and his feet sink only a couple of inches. Therefore the snow seems to be being rolled away downhill, out of camera shot.

Making a labaz at 3000ft risks so many things, the ground could freeze solid if temperatures drop and be like concrete to dig up again upon your return, or the weather deteriorates to the point where you are risking your life trying to do so in high winds or a whiteout. It makes far more sense to make a labaz near where you intend to make a return camp.

My thoughts a similar , posts crossed..

It must be a British thing.

Just to add that firewood was found in the labaz. Those advocating restaging would probably suggest the restagers placed that there for realism (while at the same time breaking the realism with cardboard, which the hikers may well have taken to use as insulators to lie on, rather like homeless people do).

I'd say the firewood made ready in the forest labaz bolsters the idea they made it there, close to where they'd camp, because they'd be pushing it to walk to Otorten and back in the same day and be knackered and cold so wanted everything prepared and to hand when they got back.

"Labaz is located at a group's camp site well hidden packed with fire wood, covered with planks and spruce debris. In the storage one ski is propped in the snow and a torn gaiter is slipped onto it,"
https://dyatlovpass.com/labaz

[Ziljoe]

Where's the snow spoil if this was a hole being used to bury something?

The hikers are digging with ski poles, and would remove material with their hands (18 skis are shown planted in the snow above them). There's at least 4 others in that trench besides Yuri K, which allowing for a turning circle, bending room, equates to a length appoaching tent proportions.

They would attempt to lever up chunks of snow and then lift up large pieces of the snow crust, this isn't freshly fallen stuff which is 95% air, it's denser, and had lain there most of the winter. The rescue photo's show such chunky stuff further down the slope from the tent.

These should be retained when burying something, piled up near the edge of the downhill side, or they are making more work for themselves. Instead Yuri K is able to stand on that very area and his feet sink only a couple of inches. Therefore the snow seems to be being rolled away downhill, out of camera shot.

Making a labaz at 3000ft risks so many things, the ground could freeze solid if temperatures drop and be like concrete to dig up again upon your return, or the weather deteriorates to the point where you are risking your life trying to do so in high winds or a whiteout. It makes far more sense to make a labaz near where you intend to make a return camp.

My thoughts a similar , posts crossed..

It must be a British thing.

Just to add that firewood was found in the labaz. Those advocating restaging would probably suggest the restagers placed that there for realism (while at the same time breaking the realism with cardboard, which the hikers may well have taken to use as insulators to lie on, rather like homeless people do).

I'd say the firewood made ready in the forest labaz bolsters the idea they made it there, close to where they'd camp, because they'd be pushing it to walk to Otorten and back in the same day and be knackered and cold so wanted everything prepared and to hand when they got back.

"Labaz is located at a group's camp site well hidden packed with fire wood, covered with planks and spruce debris. In the storage one ski is propped in the snow and a torn gaiter is slipped onto it,"
https://dyatlovpass.com/labaz

If I remember correctly, they talked about the wood being bad, it would make sense to spend time at the labaz, cache to return to the same location. Have wood prepared and reorganize their kit . Refresh and move on in the return journey. Packing and and unpacking is a laborious job. Less is more. I do not think they would plan to build a labaz on an exposed slope mid journey and continue only to do the same on the return. It's a lot of extra work for no gain.

Thinking along those same lines. If they decided to camp on a different path/route on their way back . It would be easier to send two or three people with empty back packs to get the cache stores whilst others pitched the tent. (Although splitting the group is never a good idea) .

The loss of any navigation is a bit confusing. I understand in the woods and I don't see them as lost but navigating trails by the Mansi. A bit like a maze. Other than that, they only have up and down gentle slopes, n,s,e,w. And a tree line. Easy to navigate ....?

[eurocentric]

Where's the snow spoil if this was a hole being used to bury something?

The hikers are digging with ski poles, and would remove material with their hands (18 skis are shown planted in the snow above them). There's at least 4 others in that trench besides Yuri K, which allowing for a turning circle, bending room, equates to a length appoaching tent proportions.

They would attempt to lever up chunks of snow and then lift up large pieces of the snow crust, this isn't freshly fallen stuff which is 95% air, it's denser, and had lain there most of the winter. The rescue photo's show such chunky stuff further down the slope from the tent.

These should be retained when burying something, piled up near the edge of the downhill side, or they are making more work for themselves. Instead Yuri K is able to stand on that very area and his feet sink only a couple of inches. Therefore the snow seems to be being rolled away downhill, out of camera shot.

Making a labaz at 3000ft risks so many things, the ground could freeze solid if temperatures drop and be like concrete to dig up again upon your return, or the weather deteriorates to the point where you are risking your life trying to do so in high winds or a whiteout. It makes far more sense to make a labaz near where you intend to make a return camp.

My thoughts a similar , posts crossed..

It must be a British thing.

Just to add that firewood was found in the labaz. Those advocating restaging would probably suggest the restagers placed that there for realism (while at the same time breaking the realism with cardboard, which the hikers may well have taken to use as insulators to lie on, rather like homeless people do).

I'd say the firewood made ready in the forest labaz bolsters the idea they made it there, close to where they'd camp, because they'd be pushing it to walk to Otorten and back in the same day and be knackered and cold so wanted everything prepared and to hand when they got back.

"Labaz is located at a group's camp site well hidden packed with fire wood, covered with planks and spruce debris. In the storage one ski is propped in the snow and a torn gaiter is slipped onto it,"
https://dyatlovpass.com/labaz

If I remember correctly, they talked about the wood being bad, it would make sense to spend time at the labaz, cache to return to the same location. Have wood prepared and reorganize their kit . Refresh and move on in the return journey. Packing and and unpacking is a laborious job. Less is more. I do not think they would plan to build a labaz on an exposed slope mid journey and continue only to do the same on the return. It's a lot of extra work for no gain.

Thinking along those same lines. If they decided to camp on a different path/route on their way back . It would be easier to send two or three people with empty back packs to get the cache stores whilst others pitched the tent. (Although splitting the group is never a good idea) .

The loss of any navigation is a bit confusing. I understand in the woods and I don't see them as lost but navigating trails by the Mansi. A bit like a maze. Other than that, they only have up and down gentle slopes, n,s,e,w. And a tree line. Easy to navigate ....?

Yes, and that is why I believe the logic of why they took the stove with them, which most witnesses said had no no fuel, only kindling, is as an insurance, in case they need to drop down from the high ground and make a camp. Otherwise it would be left in the labaz. Igor Dyatlov always took a radio with him on hikes, and one was listed on the provisional inventory for this but not taken. Had he done so he may have been able to tunr into a regional weather bulletin at altitude and learn of the approach of a low pressure front delivered lethal winds and would never have been up there, but they must have been experiencing a period of calm in order to get away with hitching the tent only on 2 end poles while sat inside eating.

They wouldn't need to head back immediately to their labaz if they did camp somewhere else on the return journey from Otorten, not if they had enough dried loin, toasted bread rusks and their bucket of porridge to get by, and with their saw and wood axes in tow they could get fuel anywhere.

I think Dyatlov developed a masterstroke plan to overcome all the difficulties they'd been facing and get back on schedule, and it was viable due to low wind at the time, and it may well have worked out but something happened on 1079, and without any evidence of an event or third party outside the tent it's all about what happened inside of it IMO.

As regards the loss of navigation, I have 2 ideas, one if that their ground compasses were thrown by a magnetic anomaly, which I've read can affect up to 150 yards, where iron rich rocks overcome the Earth's magnetic field and redirect the compass needle to the direction the iron particles set in before either a magnetic flip (every 100,000 years) or geological movement across millions. We now know the area is peppered with these, including the Dyatlov Pass itself. Or there was something already wrong with Captain Kirk, so he led them up the wrong pass and in his final diary entry his last sentence appears to suggest he has lost his bearings and thinks they are almost at the North Pole.

[Ziljoe]

Where's the snow spoil if this was a hole being used to bury something?

The hikers are digging with ski poles, and would remove material with their hands (18 skis are shown planted in the snow above them). There's at least 4 others in that trench besides Yuri K, which allowing for a turning circle, bending room, equates to a length appoaching tent proportions.

They would attempt to lever up chunks of snow and then lift up large pieces of the snow crust, this isn't freshly fallen stuff which is 95% air, it's denser, and had lain there most of the winter. The rescue photo's show such chunky stuff further down the slope from the tent.

These should be retained when burying something, piled up near the edge of the downhill side, or they are making more work for themselves. Instead Yuri K is able to stand on that very area and his feet sink only a couple of inches. Therefore the snow seems to be being rolled away downhill, out of camera shot.

Making a labaz at 3000ft risks so many things, the ground could freeze solid if temperatures drop and be like concrete to dig up again upon your return, or the weather deteriorates to the point where you are risking your life trying to do so in high winds or a whiteout. It makes far more sense to make a labaz near where you intend to make a return camp.

My thoughts a similar , posts crossed..

It must be a British thing.

Just to add that firewood was found in the labaz. Those advocating restaging would probably suggest the restagers placed that there for realism (while at the same time breaking the realism with cardboard, which the hikers may well have taken to use as insulators to lie on, rather like homeless people do).

I'd say the firewood made ready in the forest labaz bolsters the idea they made it there, close to where they'd camp, because they'd be pushing it to walk to Otorten and back in the same day and be knackered and cold so wanted everything prepared and to hand when they got back.

"Labaz is located at a group's camp site well hidden packed with fire wood, covered with planks and spruce debris. In the storage one ski is propped in the snow and a torn gaiter is slipped onto it,"
https://dyatlovpass.com/labaz

If I remember correctly, they talked about the wood being bad, it would make sense to spend time at the labaz, cache to return to the same location. Have wood prepared and reorganize their kit . Refresh and move on in the return journey. Packing and and unpacking is a laborious job. Less is more. I do not think they would plan to build a labaz on an exposed slope mid journey and continue only to do the same on the return. It's a lot of extra work for no gain.

Thinking along those same lines. If they decided to camp on a different path/route on their way back . It would be easier to send two or three people with empty back packs to get the cache stores whilst others pitched the tent. (Although splitting the group is never a good idea) .

The loss of any navigation is a bit confusing. I understand in the woods and I don't see them as lost but navigating trails by the Mansi. A bit like a maze. Other than that, they only have up and down gentle slopes, n,s,e,w. And a tree line. Easy to navigate ....?

Yes, and that is why I believe the logic of why they took the stove with them, which most witnesses said had no no fuel, only kindling, is as an insurance, in case they need to drop down from the high ground and make a camp. Otherwise it would be left in the labaz. Igor Dyatlov always took a radio with him on hikes, and one was listed on the provisional inventory for this but not taken. Had he done so he may have been able to tunr into a regional weather bulletin at altitude and learn of the approach of a low pressure front delivered lethal winds and would never have been up there, but they must have been experiencing a period of calm in order to get away with hitching the tent only on 2 end poles while sat inside eating.

They wouldn't need to head back immediately to their labaz if they did camp somewhere else on the return journey from Otorten, not if they had enough dried loin, toasted bread rusks and their bucket of porridge to get by, and with their saw and wood axes in tow they could get fuel anywhere.

I think Dyatlov developed a masterstroke plan to overcome all the difficulties they'd been facing and get back on schedule, and it was viable due to low wind at the time, and it may well have worked out but something happened on 1079, and without any evidence of an event or third party outside the tent it's all about what happened inside of it IMO.

As regards the loss of navigation, I have 2 ideas, one if that their ground compasses were thrown by a magnetic anomaly, which I've read can affect up to 150 yards, where iron rich rocks overcome the Earth's magnetic field and redirect the compass needle to the direction the iron particles set in before either a magnetic flip (every 100,000 years) or geological movement across millions. We now know the area is peppered with these, including the Dyatlov Pass itself. Or there was something already wrong with Captain Kirk, so he led them up the wrong pass and in his final diary entry his last sentence appears to suggest he has lost his bearings and thinks they are almost at the North Pole.

I agree with the logic of taking the stove, at least one more night was expected before returning from mt Otorten..the kindling I suspect would be good wood to get not so good wood burning.

I'm not sure about the radio but the weather changes easily and their experience would or should make them aware of the potential. ( UK weather forecast is rubbish to this day,lol)

I agree with your observation that there must have been a period of calm to get the tent up without the skis holding up the middle of the tent. Plus the snow had to be firm to hold the ski poles. Canvas tents are heavy and especially if it's over 4 Meyers long. I would have to say it was calmish at that moment. I often think there's two options of the incident occuring. 1) it's not long set up , enough to take outer clothes off and have some food. With possible plans to nip down to the tree line to get wood for the night? And then hang the stove but for some reason things changed, or they had slept the night, used the stove and they were getting dressed and people were taking down the outlying ski's etc. ?

To me, they can't get list, at least not in a big way. Snow slopes, valleys, tree lines, sun in the sky. They only needed to be accurate by 0.5 miles or skirt along the tree line.

Depending on how accurate their maps were for height , I can't see a problem. I avoid the UK mountains in winter, mostly because if you get it wrong you will fall off an edge and get hurt. I always take a compass but rarely use it. Part of that is not getting lost in the first place .... However I can see them getting disoriented in the woods because of the trails?

The photo of Igor and Zolotaryov in his thinking man postion is an indication to them not knowing where they are. It looks humours enough  but indicates that they were unsure.

Could it be as simple that they just got lost????

[GlennM]

If you get above the tree line, I line of sight would be sufficient to get to Otorten and the lake. I thought that owing to the group having to break a trail in deep snow and having the extra burden of anything Yuri Yuden contributed, a cache would be a natural thing to do. If the group knew of boot rock, they might have put it there instead somewhere else.Under any circumstance, they needed to pick up their pace having essentially lost a day.

I believe they camped on 1079 that last night simply because of Rustem. No other explanation is needed. He was warm when he fell for the last time and he was headed in the direction of the tent. That precludes relocation of the tent by conspirators.

Something that does seem strange in that while sheltering in the forest they all could have made for the labaz, but did not. Perhaps it was thought inadequate or inaccessible when approached from the back side.

[Manti]

This thread diverged a bit from the original "There was never any labaz" topic, but it's interesting.

However I think we should also discuss what's in that article. Several statements that go against the commonly accepted version of events, such as

• Their last diary entry was from Feb 2 not Jan 31
• No skis were returned to UPI even though they were UPI property. The skis found were said to be not the Dyatlov group's skis
• Contradictory statements about the labaz, such as "there was no labaz" but also that their diary mentions they set up the labaz in upper Auspiya, which no currently known diaries mention, and also that their route plan didn't involve going to the upper sources of Auspiya.

Also above in this thread it's mentioned that they were behind schedule and were trying to catch up. From my reading of their planned schedule, they were actually ahead.

If you get above the tree line, I line of sight would be sufficient to get to Otorten and the lake.

Unless there is a blizzard, or fog, or low visibility in general. Which is, quite often

That precludes relocation of the tent by conspirators.

This article is not about the tent site on Kholat being or not being the actual labaz. That's not even considered an option. It's about the cache site found in the forest in upper Auspiya being an ersatz labaz (counterfeit, substitute, faked).

Could it be as simple that they just got lost????

Lost as in ending up at the cedar when actually looking for their cache near the stream Auspiya?
Maybe but this implies they went to Otorten, several days of diary entries were lost or never disclosed (which is what the article suggests), and the group that searched Otorten and didn't find any tracks were mistaken?

There is also testimony from Mansi saying the group were "lost and wandering for 5 days"...

Or if you mean lost on their way to Otorten, maybe but that doesn't explain what happened, the abandonment of the tent, etc.

[GlennM]

I suggest a comparative inventory be made. If the cache is fictitious, the discrepancy will be revealed. Compare total inventory before the expedition to inventory of tent contents to inventory to cache to inventory of recent finds at the cedar. Include alleged stolen vodka, factor stomach  contents.  It should be instructive.

[Ziljoe]

Quote:  "In last entry of the group diary on January 31 Dyatlov wrote "I can't even start thinking of setting up storage here".

I would not use the term "setting up storage" if what I meant was "digging out." But maybe this is a translation issue. Anyone who reads Russian, can you translate more exactly what Igor wrote? Page scans here: https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-diary

Below is the translation to English from dyatlov pass.

31 January 1959
Weather today is a bit worse – wind (west), snowing (probably from the pines), since the sky is perfectly clear.
Started relatively early (around 10 am). Got back on the Mansi trail. (Up to now we are following a Mansi trail on which not so long passed a hunter with deer.)
Yesterday it seems we stumbled upon his resting stop. Deer didn't go any further. The hunter took the beaten trail by himself, we are following in his steps.
Had a surprisingly good overnight, air is warm and dry, though it’s -18°C to -24°C. Walking is especially hard today. We can't see the trail, have to grope our way through at times. Can’t do more than 1.52 km (1 mile) per hour.
Trying out new ways to clear the path. The first in line drops his backpack, skis forward for five minutes, comes back for a 10-15 minute break, then catches up with the group. That’s one way to keep laying ski tracks non-stop. Hard on the second hiker though, who has to follow the new trail with full gear on his back. We gradually leave the Auspiya valley, it’s upwards all the way but goes rather smoothly. Thin birch grove replaces firs. The end of forest is getting closer. Wind is western, warm, piercing, with speed like the draft from airplanes at take-off. Firn, open spaces. I can't even think of setting up storage here. It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.


Below, I tried to take a photo of the text and translate in to English using yandex and Google. There are slight differences.( I gave up to be honest) however , I will highlight in bold some slight differences.


Yandex translated.

January 31 , 1959

Today the weather is a little bad-Wind (west), snow (view from the fir tree) because the sky is completely clear. We left relatively early (about 10 am). Ideas on the proven Mansi nom trail. ( ( So far we have been walking along the Mansi Trail, along which a HUNTER rode deer not very long ago ). Yesterday, apparently, his overnight stay was damaged, the deer did not go further, the hunter himself did not follow the notches of the old trail,we are following his trail now.

Today was an amazingly good night, warm and dry. at a low ambient temperature (- 180 - 24 °). Walking is especially hard today. The trace is not visible, we often get lost from it or ideas by touch. Thus we pass 1.5 - 2 km per hour.

Develops new methods of more productive walking. The first one drops the backpack and goes for 5 minutes, then returns. he rests for 10-15 minutes, then catches up with the rest of the group.



Google translateted

January 31, 1959

Today the weather is a little bad - wind (west), snow (view from elell) because the sky is completely clear. We left relatively early (about 10 am). Ideas on the trace of the Mansi. (Until now, we have been walking along the Nancy Trail, along which a HUNTER rode on reindeer not very long ago). Yesterday, apparently, his overnight stay was fixed, the deer did not go further, the hunter himself did not follow the notches of the old path, following his trail and ideas now

Today was a surprisingly good overnight stay, warm and dry. to low ambient temperature (- 180 - 24 °). Walking today is especially difficult. The trace is not visible, we often stray from it or feel our ideas. Thus, we pass 1.5 - 2 km per hour.

Develops new methods of more productive walking. The first one drops the backpack and walks for 5 minutes, after that it returns. rests for 10-15 minutes, then catches up with the rest of the group.



This is what I could get from the line about the labaz.

Об устройстве лобаза даже и думать не приходится.



Google

You don’t even have to think about the device of the lobaza.

Yandex

You don't even have to think of the lobaz device.


So to place this different translation in to our one fro DP.com ,reads.

"Thin birch grove replaces firs. The end of forest is getting closer. Wind is western, warm, piercing, with speed like the draft from airplanes at take-off. Firn, open spaces. .You don’t even have to think about the device of the lobaza. It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.


Tried translating it again and got this for the last part.

with a backpack. Gradually rises from Ausnia, the ascent is continuous, but rather smooth. And now the spruces ran out, a rare birch forest went. We came to the edge of the forest. The weather is western, piercing green, the wind speed is similar to the air speed when the plane rises. Nacs. bare places. You don’t even have to think about the device for the base. About 4 hours. You have to choose accommodation. We descend to the south - to the Aneliya valley. This is probably the snowiest place. The wind is light on snow I, 2-2 m thick. Tired, exhausted, they set about arranging an overnight stay. Firewood tax. Sickly raw spruce. The fire was bred on logs, reluctantly lynx pit. We leave right in the tent. Warm. It's hard to imagine something like this somewhere on a ridge, with a piercing howl of wind, a hundred kilometers from populated areas.

Another slight difference?

.with a backpack. It gradually separates from Auspiya, the rise is continuous, but rather smooth. And now the spruces ran out, a rare birch forest went. We came to the edge of the forest. The weather is western, warm, piercing, wind speed similar to the air speed when the plane rises. On the. bare places. There is no need to even think about the device of the storehouse. About 4 hours. You have to choose accommodation. We descend to the south - to the Aneliya valley. This is probably the snowiest place. The wind is light on snow I, 2-2 m thick. Tired, exhausted, they set about arranging an overnight stay. Firewood is needed. Sickly raw spruce. The fire was bred on logs, reluctantly lynx pit. We dine right in the tent. Warm. It is hard to imagine a similar one somewhere on the ridge, with a piercer

Yandex , different again.

with a backpack. Gradually separated from the Auspex, the ascent is continuous, but quite smooth. And now the spruce trees have run out, a rare birch tree has gone. We came to the border of the forest. Weser is western, warm piercing, wind speed is similar to the speed of air when lifting an airplane. On. bare places. Dana doesn't even have to think about the arrangement of the lab. About 4 hours. You need to choose a bed for the night. We descend to the south - to the valley of Anelia. This is probably the snowiest place. The wind is small on snow I, 2- 2 m thick. Tired, exhausted, they set about arranging a bed for the night. We need firewood. Frail raw spruce. The fire was built on logs, reluctantly trotting the pit. We have dinner right in the tent. Heat. It is difficult to imagine such a thing somewhere on the ridge, with the piercing howl of the wind, a hundred kilometers from populated areas.

Reverso translate

with a backpack. Gradually it is separated from Ausnia, let’s go continuous, but rather smooth. And here we ran out of fir trees, went a rare birch. We have reached the border of the forest. Weser west, zeple-piercing, wind speed is similar to the speed of the air when lifting the plane. Nacs. Naked seats. It is not necessary to think about the device and do not think. About 4 hours. You need to choose a bed. We go down to the south - in the valley of Anelia. This is probably the most snowy place. The wind is small in the snow I, 2- 2 m thick. Tired, exhausted started to arrange a place for the night. Drov nalo. Weak raw spruce. The fire was bred on logs, reluctantly trolling the pit. Ukinaem right in the tent. Heat. It is difficult to imagine such a thing somewhere on a ridge, with a piercing wind, a hundred comets from settlements.

---------------------------------------------------------------

So.....they all read slightly different, does it mean they were at a bare / naked / barren place, they had come to the end of the wood and there was no where to make a store? Was that the decision to backtrack ? Were they looking for the deeper snow to bury there non essential items for the stores?

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, very good work sir! You have certainly highlighted the confusions in the subtleties of language. It reminds me the two versions of the Bible, one saying " peace on earth, good will toward men" ,the other saying " peace on earth to men of good will".

I read these translations to mean, we don't need to use the labaz or alternately,  we don't need a labaz ( at all).

However, the smoking gun here is they backtracked and lost a day. That, for me makes the matter moot. There was a cache, irregardless of whether they did it when they first passed the location or later when they returned to it. Further, to the disappointment of conspiracists,  it was found. In the great scheme of this tragedy, the lava is of interest to me only in that the  Rustem could have made for it or the tent during his final push. He chose the tent.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, very good work sir! You have certainly highlighted the confusions in the subtleties of language. It reminds me the two versions of the Bible, one saying " peace on earth, good will toward men" ,the other saying " peace on earth to men of good will".

I read these translations to mean, we don't need to use the labaz or alternately,  we don't need a labaz ( at all).

However, the smoking gun here is they backtracked and lost a day. That, for me makes the matter moot. There was a cache, irregardless of whether they did it when they first passed the location or later when they returned to it. Further, to the disappointment of conspiracists,  it was found. In the great scheme of this tragedy, the lava is of interest to me only in that the  Rustem could have made for it or the tent during his final push. He chose the tent.

Thank you GlennM. The post could be better but I was getting annoyed with the going back and forth.

Hopefully our Russian friends can polish it off. I think some of the finer details of the letters may have not been picked up from the photo's of the text

However, subtle wording can change our perception and anything might help.

It does make me wonder that they were looking for snow to bury there extra kit. It also suggests they were wandering aimlessly to the edge of the tree line with an hour to go before setting up camp. The 31 of January notes a number of things , they were off the Mansi trail, had to employ a skiing method of the leader dumps his pack etc, rests for 10-15 minutes and so on. If they were doing this they would be split up along their ski trail.

It also , to a certain extent, validates teddy's theory. That the store was to be made on the slope. If we read the diary , when the say the ground was bare, as the turning point back to the tree's, it suggests they wanted or expected to find an area to bury their store. All possible....

[Ziljoe]

And....... It's got me thinking, the translations say, you, I ,they etc. Is this because it was translated for the case? It doesn't read like a diary written at end of day. It's written in bits as if and when the happened , like continuous notes at that moment in time??

For example.it says.

"We gradually leave the Auspiya valley, it’s upwards all the way but goes rather smoothly. Thin birch grove replaces firs. The end of forest is getting closer."

Should it not read.

We gradually left the Auspiya valley, it's upwards all the way but goes rather smoothly. Thin birch grove replaces firs. The end of forest  got closer.?

And again for example,

"Firn, open spaces. I can't even think of setting up storage here. It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow."

Is the author writing as he goes?
If they were writing at the end of the day it would be more like this below.

 "Firn, open spaces. You can't even think of setting up storage here. It's nearly 4. We had  to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We went south into the Auspiya valley. This this place has the deepest snow."


Just a thought,  it even gives some merit to those that think that the diares were rewritten....it just doesn't read right?

[RMK]

Ziljoe, here's a tip: you can toggle between English and Russian text on the webpages for each diary by clicking a little link next to a flag (American or Russian, as the case may be) at the top of the webpage.  Here is the text of the group diary, in Russian: https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-diary-ru?rbid=17746 .

To get good the results the way you were doing it, you would need to get accurate output from the OCR (optical character recognition) AI as well as from the translation AI.

[Ziljoe]

Thanks RMK. You are a star.

Agree about the AI from the OCR.

My caution  by your suggestion , is that the the Russian translation is from the English translation . Not the original transcript from the photos in Russian.

If the translation from russian text to English  is incorrect or has variabilities then so will the  the jumping between the two. If that makes sense. The translation needs to be from the original transcripts. Hence why I tried using the OCR .

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, here's a tip: you can toggle between English and Russian text on the webpages for each diary by clicking a little link next to a flag (American or Russian, as the case may be) at the top of the webpage.  Here is the text of the group diary, in Russian: https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-diary-ru?rbid=17746 .

To get good the results the way you were doing it, you would need to get accurate output from the OCR (optical character recognition) AI as well as from the translation AI.

I had a go , and it reads better.

pretty smooth. And now the spruces ran out, a rare birch forest went. We came to the edge of the forest. The wind is from the west, warm, shrill, wind speed similar to the air speed when the plane rises. Nast, naked places. You don’t even have to think about the device of the storehouse. About 4 hours. You have to choose accommodation. We descend south to the valley of Auspiya. This is apparently the snowiest place. The wind is light on snow 1.22 m thick. Tired, exhausted, they set about arranging an overnight stay. Firewood is scarce. Sickly raw spruce. The fire was built on logs, reluctance to dig a hole. We dine right in the tent. Warm. It is hard to imagine such comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing howl of the wind, a hundred kilometers from settlements.
Dyatlov


Many thanks RMK

[eurocentric]

This thread diverged a bit from the original "There was never any labaz" topic, but it's interesting.

However I think we should also discuss what's in that article. Several statements that go against the commonly accepted version of events, such as

• Their last diary entry was from Feb 2 not Jan 31
• No skis were returned to UPI even though they were UPI property. The skis found were said to be not the Dyatlov group's skis
• Contradictory statements about the labaz, such as "there was no labaz" but also that their diary mentions they set up the labaz in upper Auspiya, which no currently known diaries mention, and also that their route plan didn't involve going to the upper sources of Auspiya.

Also above in this thread it's mentioned that they were behind schedule and were trying to catch up. From my reading of their planned schedule, they were actually ahead.

If you get above the tree line, I line of sight would be sufficient to get to Otorten and the lake.

Unless there is a blizzard, or fog, or low visibility in general. Which is, quite often

That precludes relocation of the tent by conspirators.

This article is not about the tent site on Kholat being or not being the actual labaz. That's not even considered an option. It's about the cache site found in the forest in upper Auspiya being an ersatz labaz (counterfeit, substitute, faked).

Could it be as simple that they just got lost????

Lost as in ending up at the cedar when actually looking for their cache near the stream Auspiya?
Maybe but this implies they went to Otorten, several days of diary entries were lost or never disclosed (which is what the article suggests), and the group that searched Otorten and didn't find any tracks were mistaken?

There is also testimony from Mansi saying the group were "lost and wandering for 5 days"...

Or if you mean lost on their way to Otorten, maybe but that doesn't explain what happened, the abandonment of the tent, etc.

It's not off-topic to challenge the idea a labaz was made at 3000ft, because the entire premise of the article is to make the idea of one in a forest seem extraordinary, when that is where hikers and Mansi typically make them, so that the reader accepts the former.

The two photo's of the hikers digging in the snow is the Achilles' Heel of any restaging theory. There's many potential explanations, though none of them strong, but not only did the book choose to go for a logistically pointless labaz at 3000ft, it even suggested that 4 men pushed a sled laden with the tent and contents up the mountain at night to dig up this labaz, found in the dark via a pennant, and expanded it into a tent trench, set up the tent, put all the gear inside, and then returned down the mountain with the labaz contents to the cedar.

Their uphill tracks were missing, as was any sled tracks up or down, they pushed this sled through all the rocks which jutted out the snow level as it was back then, and somehow 4 men went up yet 8 or 9 came down, with a Bulgarian expert recently tasked with giving his opinion on the downhill footprints and saying they were 'probably' made by shod feet - to imply this proves restagers left them.

Those men would have spent at least 5 if not 6 hours outside in the freezing night doing all this, defying frostbite. I doubt the Soviet winter decathlon team of the time would have been capable of pulling off this superhuman feat, let alone a bunch of Ivdelians, who elsewhere in the book are invariously described as drunks, desperate to hold on to their lifestyle of wine, women and gambling and not be blamed for a tree collapsing during a hurricane on a group of sleeping hikers.

It's important to highlight this and ask which is the more credible cache site and when and by whom would it most likely be made.

They had gone the wrong way up a pass and returned back down, and they were struggling to wade through deep soft snow at lower elevation. To keep things on schedule they needed to go higher, and pitching overnight up 1079, the wind speed allowing, provided for an early start, so they set off refreshed and made every use of a window of opportunity in the weather.

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, very good work sir! You have certainly highlighted the confusions in the subtleties of language. It reminds me the two versions of the Bible, one saying " peace on earth, good will toward men" ,the other saying " peace on earth to men of good will".

I read these translations to mean, we don't need to use the labaz or alternately,  we don't need a labaz ( at all).

However, the smoking gun here is they backtracked and lost a day. That, for me makes the matter moot. There was a cache, irregardless of whether they did it when they first passed the location or later when they returned to it. Further, to the disappointment of conspiracists,  it was found. In the great scheme of this tragedy, the lava is of interest to me only in that the  Rustem could have made for it or the tent during his final push. He chose the tent.

Thank you GlennM. The post could be better but I was getting annoyed with the going back and forth.

Hopefully our Russian friends can polish it off. I think some of the finer details of the letters may have not been picked up from the photo's of the text

However, subtle wording can change our perception and anything might help.

It does make me wonder that they were looking for snow to bury there extra kit. It also suggests they were wandering aimlessly to the edge of the tree line with an hour to go before setting up camp. The 31 of January notes a number of things , they were off the Mansi trail, had to employ a skiing method of the leader dumps his pack etc, rests for 10-15 minutes and so on. If they were doing this they would be split up along their ski trail.

It also , to a certain extent, validates teddy's theory. That the store was to be made on the slope. If we read the diary , when the say the ground was bare, as the turning point back to the tree's, it suggests they wanted or expected to find an area to bury their store. All possible....

That one is easy, They needed to settle on a place to bury the suitcase bomb. LOL

[Manti]

Hmm,   maybe I misunderstood the article. To me it was about suggesting the cache site in the forest (Auspiya valley) was staged. That doesn't suggest the site on the slope of Kholat (at ~3000ft) is also staged. But maybe that was the intention and it just missed me.

To me it seems what was suggested is more like a scenario where the hikers went past the search area, perhaps even reached Otorten. They never made a cache. Instead, something happened to them there. The presumed stagers relocated their bodies and the tent to where these were found. But when it became apparent that there is scrutiny, they decided the return some items they pilfered (mandolin etc.).

But who knows. In general I agree with your sentiment. The book just raised more questions in my head - posted these back then, never got a reply, it didn't spark a discussion. That's ok. I think there are several plausible scenarios, staging a scene so someone isn't held responsible for a falling tree... is not one of them.

However, there are the Ravine 4's trauma injuries. Falling tree could neatly explain that, and is perhaps the "Occam's razor" simplest / most probable explanation, in general, if you are dealing with major trauma suffered in a forest. Certainly more plausible than rocket debris or a snowmobile? Maybe not more so than rib fracture due to resuscitation attempts.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, very good work sir! You have certainly highlighted the confusions in the subtleties of language. It reminds me the two versions of the Bible, one saying " peace on earth, good will toward men" ,the other saying " peace on earth to men of good will".

I read these translations to mean, we don't need to use the labaz or alternately,  we don't need a labaz ( at all).

However, the smoking gun here is they backtracked and lost a day. That, for me makes the matter moot. There was a cache, irregardless of whether they did it when they first passed the location or later when they returned to it. Further, to the disappointment of conspiracists,  it was found. In the great scheme of this tragedy, the lava is of interest to me only in that the  Rustem could have made for it or the tent during his final push. He chose the tent.

Thank you GlennM. The post could be better but I was getting annoyed with the going back and forth.

Hopefully our Russian friends can polish it off. I think some of the finer details of the letters may have not been picked up from the photo's of the text

However, subtle wording can change our perception and anything might help.

It does make me wonder that they were looking for snow to bury there extra kit. It also suggests they were wandering aimlessly to the edge of the tree line with an hour to go before setting up camp. The 31 of January notes a number of things , they were off the Mansi trail, had to employ a skiing method of the leader dumps his pack etc, rests for 10-15 minutes and so on. If they were doing this they would be split up along their ski trail.

It also , to a certain extent, validates teddy's theory. That the store was to be made on the slope. If we read the diary , when the say the ground was bare, as the turning point back to the tree's, it suggests they wanted or expected to find an area to bury their store. All possible....

That one is easy, They needed to settle on a place to bury the suitcase bomb. LOL

Oh my love for my sarcastic friend 

[GlennM]

Labaz or no labaz. I don't think they had or needed one...so long as there were two mandolins.

[RMK]

Hmm,   maybe I misunderstood the article. To me it was about suggesting the cache site in the forest (Auspiya valley) was staged.

That's what I took away from the article, too.

[eurocentric]

Hmm,   maybe I misunderstood the article. To me it was about suggesting the cache site in the forest (Auspiya valley) was staged.

That's what I took away from the article, too.

Yes, that is what the article is about. But the objective of the article is to suggest the hikers could not possibly have made the labaz in the forest, restagers must have done that, and therefore the hikers made a labaz on 1079, as the book suggests, before restagers moved it and used that site to resite a tree-damaged tent.

I'd say that if it's a game of questioning the credibility of a labaz site, focus on the entire idea the hikers would make ever one on 1079, and look for the complete absence of the snow spoil in the 2 photographs, which they'd need to retain to use to backfill a hole if intending to bury anything up there, and it becomes obvious where the hikers actually made their labaz.

[GlennM]

It defies credulity to believe the tent was relocated to the slope and the contents of the tent were parsed and planted in a made up cache. Someone with an inordinate amount of time ( and magic shoes) supposedly makes all this happen, botches the mocked up tent and cache, then chooses to leave nine dead bodies far away from either one of the phony props. This is more indicative of frustration in the forum than anything else. It's not about the tent and the supplies, it's about the people.

Rustem's body can not be explained away. He was headed while alive to the tent. It was not a post mortem prop. Ice confirms this. He succumbed to the elements. Too, the tent was inventoried as was the cache. Just because after 64 years,somebody claims to not like the way the hikers did things doesn't mean that they didn't do it. Their hike, their choice.

[amashilu]

Rustem's body can not be explained away. He was headed while alive to the tent.

Hi GlennM, you do repeat this quite often, and every time, I want to ask you (so I finally am), couldn't it be just as likely that he was headed away from the tent? On his way down the slope? Why are you sure he was headed back to the tent?

[GlennM]

Rustem's body was found 480 m from the cedar on March 5, the day after the autopsy of the first four bodies, covered with 50 cm of snow, face down, head towards the tent. He was better dressed that the previously found hikers. He wore a long sleeve undershirt, shirt, sweater, two pairs of pants, four pairs of socks, and one felt boot (valenka) on his right foot. His watch stopped at 8:45 am. On the chest under the sweater were two shoe insoles, in the shirt pocket - 310 rubles and his passport. In other pockets were found small folding pocket knife (penknife), pencil, pen, comb in a plastic sleeve, box of matches with 48 match sticks, and one cotton sock. His autopsy was performed on March 8 by Vozrozhdenniy alone.

GlennM