Rustem and Zina going up or down?

[Manti]

Rustem, and also Igor and Zina, could have been heading either way. I also don't think his body was staged (not even Teddy's book suggests this), but the ice doesn't confirm anything.


Stagers could have kept the body warm. Also, another in my opinion more likely explanation for the ice is that his clothing was soaking from falling into the stream. ...Or because he froze to death, the stagers found him, and he started to defrost in their helicopter...

His watch stopped at 8:45 am.

Could also be 8:45 pm, in fact it's more likely, given that they only hiked for an hour that day:

• suppose they woke up really late: 11am
• made a rudimentary labaz, basically just dig a bit, and bury some things in snow. max. 3 hours.
• hike up to the site where the tent was found. this is very close to the Auspiya labaz. it probably took an hour but let's count 1.5 hours due to the blizzard conditions.
• it's now only 3:30pm. for some inexplicable reason, they set up the tent there (taking 2.5 hours because they had to dig) and start their meal but abandon the tent shortly afterwards
• if Rustem fell on the way down, it's around 6pm. Freezing takes a couple of hours...
• if instead he fell after going to the forest and then deciding to return, this means we have to believe he survived for 12+ hours.

[GlennM]

The point is he ,, Rustem ,and others were in transit. I contend they were approaching, not retreating from the tent. He was alive when that happened. I find it repugnant to believe that were they going the opposite way, that they would leave a woman to die in the snow. I find it improbable that they would not strip her of her clothes if indeed she died before Rustem. Most importantly, Rustem confirms the antemortem existence of the tent on 1079.
The UCF was at the tent, not the woods. The force was weather, nothing else.

[amashilu]

Устройство лабаз means building the labaz, not "device".
 
You can't even think about building a labaz. - this how I read it.

Yes, I agree. Tired as they were, it would be exhausting just to think about building such a structure. Not sure that it would qualify as exhausting to think about digging a hole in the snow.

[amashilu]

The point is he ,, Rustem ,and others were in transit. I contend they were approaching, not retreating from the tent. He was alive when that happened. I find it repugnant to believe that were they going the opposite way, that they would leave a woman to die in the snow. I find it improbable that they would not strip her of her clothes if indeed she died before Rustem. Most importantly, Rustem confirms the antemortem existence of the tent on 1079.
The UCF was at the tent, not the woods. The force was weather, nothing else.

I agree with Manti that Rustem, Igor, and Zina could have been headed either way.

Certainly there is nothing to indicate that Rustem abandoned Zina to die in the snow. I find this curious and wonder why this is part of your thinking? (Perhaps they were both moving away from the tent and the UCF struck them both within seconds or minutes of each other, so neither had time to strip the other of their clothes, as you mention.)

[Ziljoe]

The point is he ,, Rustem ,and others were in transit. I contend they were approaching, not retreating from the tent. He was alive when that happened. I find it repugnant to believe that were they going the opposite way, that they would leave a woman to die in the snow. I find it improbable that they would not strip her of her clothes if indeed she died before Rustem. Most importantly, Rustem confirms the antemortem existence of the tent on 1079.
The UCF was at the tent, not the woods. The force was weather, nothing else.

I agree with Manti that Rustem, Igor, and Zina could have been headed either way.

Certainly there is nothing to indicate that Rustem abandoned Zina to die in the snow. I find this curious and wonder why this is part of your thinking? (Perhaps they were both moving away from the tent and the UCF struck them both within seconds or minutes of each other, so neither had time to strip the other of their clothes, as you mention.)

Zina, Rustem and Igor could have being going either way but to run the scenario both ways, if they were going down the slope , would the group leave each to drop to their death one by one?

The ice below Rustem suggests that is where he died. I've forgotten the name of who noted the ice, if my memory serves me correctly , the investigator wasn't at the discovery of the other bodies and ice under the others may have not been reported. I believe it was also noted that Zina had an ice beard or something to that description, when found, again suggesting exposure to the elements or was alive where she was found.

I think GlennM is thinking , why would they leave Zina if they were going down hill. 

[amashilu]

Yes, but why would he leave Zina if they were going uphill either?

I guess these things need to be folded into one's favorite theory and considered from that perspective. For example, 1) a bad man was forcing them away from the tent, and Zina and Rustem both began to fight and were whacked, falling and dying. In that case, Zina should have an ice bed also, but no one seems to have noted that. Or 2) since I think you prefer the avalanche theory, the avalanche overtook them both as they were fleeing down the slope and they both were overcome and fell.

I remember reading a few times -- different searchers -- that Zina had a broken head.

[GlennM]

The thing about human nature is that any fact can be argued, just for the sake of arguement. An arguement may be logical, but the basic premise may be false. For example you can argue about the number of trolls in a troll family, but since trolls do not exist, the arguement, though logical is not based on truth, nor reality. In DPI, this is why there so many unlikely scenarios put forward.Assasins, Yeti, UFO's all apply. They all have a certain logic, but no truth. Additionally, there is a strong tendency for forum members not to want to be on the wrong side, as opposed to being correct. This is expressed by the " I'll wait and see" position.

I reason from the facts. The single most compelling fact is about Rustem. His position and condition indicate he was moving between locations. Therefore he was alive. His orientation, and that of his companions is upslope. The only thing upslope was the tent, exactly where it was found. It is illogical to think he and others were ascending the slope for any other purpose.

The corpses were not stripped as opposed to those at the cedar. This is indicative of a weakened condition and an urgency. I find it more likely the trio would leave Igor rather than Zina in the snow, again supporting an uphill attempt. My conclusion is that the tent was not in the forest and the UCP affected them at the tent, not the forest. Someone will surely say " what if" and argue an opposing idea that is logical, but not the truth. My conclusion is the UCF was weather.

[amashilu]

The thing about human nature is that any fact can be argued, just for the sake of arguement. An arguement may be logical, but the basic premise may be false. For example you can argue about the number of trolls in a troll family, but since trolls do not exist, the arguement, though logical is not based on truth, nor reality. In DPI, this is why there so many unlikely scenarios put forward.Assasins, Yeti, UFO's all apply. They all have a certain logic, but no truth. Additionally, there is a strong tendency for forum members not to want to be on the wrong side, as opposed to being correct. This is expressed by the " I'll wait and see" position.

I reason from the facts. The single most compelling fact is about Rustem. His position and condition indicate he was moving between locations. Therefore he was alive. His orientation, and that of his companions is upslope. The only thing upslope was the tent, exactly where it was found. It is illogical to think he and others were ascending the slope for any other purpose.

The corpses were not stripped as opposed to those at the cedar. This is indicative of a weakened condition and an urgency. I find it more likely the trio would leave Igor rather than Zina in the snow, again supporting an uphill attempt. My conclusion is that the tent was not in the forest and the UCP affected them at the tent, not the forest. Someone will surely say " what if" and argue an opposing idea that is logical, but not the truth. My conclusion is the UCF was weather.

Of course I agree with you about reasoning from the facts. I hope we all do.
 
I think the "single most compelling thing about Rustem" is not his position, but the crack on his head.

We have somehow diverged almost 100% from the topic of this thread (labaz). If you are interested, you could start a new one about this uphill-downhill dilemma.

[Ziljoe]

Yes, but why would he leave Zina if they were going uphill either?

I guess these things need to be folded into one's favorite theory and considered from that perspective. For example, 1) a bad man was forcing them away from the tent, and Zina and Rustem both began to fight and were whacked, falling and dying. In that case, Zina should have an ice bed also, but no one seems to have noted that. Or 2) since I think you prefer the avalanche theory, the avalanche overtook them both as they were fleeing down the slope and they both were overcome and fell.

I remember reading a few times -- different searchers -- that Zina had a broken head.

There's a question amoungst many .

If they were getting attacked going downhill , enough that the realisation by the group that one of them is being left for dead or is/has been beaten up, the fight to death starts there. Guns or no guns , overwhelming numbers or not. It's fight to death there and then. ( In my mind anyway) and it isn't a slap around the face fight, it's no rules fighting, which includes head butting , bitting, gouging eyes , it's game on.

If they were going up hill it still raises the question of why leave Igor . To me this implies that reaching the tent is the most important thing. If there's been the snow collapse at the Ravine, the 2 Yuri's are trying to warm up , cold is now their enemy. To sit by or carry Igor up the slope is also death . Reaching the tent and what can be collected from it for survival is the last option?

 the observer that noted the ice, was only at Rustem's body I believe and not the others. Again, people were not investigating with suspicion at that time.

I favour the Wolverine theory, closely followed by a small snow slip / bad weather(giving the impression of an avalanche or potential for one).
I do not think they were swept anywhere by an avalanche. I have to start from a base assumption, that there were no outsider's and it can all be explained from the environment.  In parallel , I, like everyone else and even the searchers and friends at the time only have speculation as to what else might have happened,

I read that too, about the broken head, it's been discussed somewhere in our forum.if I remember correctly it was a generalisation , regarding the marks on her face. We can see for ourselves in the frozen  pictures and thawed photos.

[Ziljoe]

I think the "single most compelling thing about Rustem" is not his position, but the crack on his head.

We have somehow diverged almost 100% from the topic of this thread (labaz). If you are interested, you could start a new one about this uphill-downhill dilemma.

The crack on his head may have been from freezing. The fluids in the skull would expand and he was wearing a hat. If he died there , which the ice bed suggests , then the cooling of the body and various parts exposed  would freeze at different times. This has been clinically evidenced but usual fractures  the inside part of the skull above the roof of your mouth . It's thinner there ..

It always goes off topic, everything seems connected . Lol

[RMK]

I remember reading a few times -- different searchers -- that Zina had a broken head.

That appears in Maslennikov's first notebook.  I am not sure if it appears elsewhere in the primary sources.

[eurocentric]

If Rustem collapsed heading down the mountain where did his head injury come from? I suppose in his case it could come from a tumble and his head connecting with one of the many rocks which jutted out the snow. Contemporary winter photo's usually show the Dyatlov Pass as perfectly smooth with snow, not a rock in sight, but in 1959 it was a minefield.

However, unless he had sat down and passed out and died, he should have attempted to continue crawling downhill given his location and would have been found dead with his head facing towards the bottom of the mountain. It seems obvious from Tibo that he suffered such a serious head injury that he would never regain consciousness. If this is supposed to have happened at the tent, or during descent, the others must have dragged or carried Tibo to where he was found. Why would they leave Rustem? And why didn't they reapprorpiate his clothing after he died?

Zina had frostbite to her fingers, but not her face. If she ended up collapsing half way down the mountain this would come some 20 minutes from leaving the tent, on what must've been a windless night if the tent was hitched only on 2 end poles while hikers were sat inside eating, so such a short exposure is unlikely to have only affected her fingers. What would is attempting to crawl back up the mountain, dipping her fingers into cold wet snow while her dry face exposed only to air wasn't affected.

If she was heading down the mountain when she died her bruise to her side and gash to her hand needs explaining. If all the injuries are supposed to have happened at the tent how did those with flail chest and head injury make it down the mountain but she did not when she didn't have life-threatening injury.

[amashilu]

I read somewhere that Rustem would have died very quickly after receiving that whack.

[RMK]

I read somewhere that Rustem would have died very quickly after receiving that whack.

Do you mean Thibeaux-Brignolle instead?  Vozrozhdenniy determined his Cause of Death to be head trauma.  In contrast, recall what Vozrozhdenniy wrote regarding Rustem Slobodin:

The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma. When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. The absence of explicit bleeding under the meninges allows for the assumption that Slobodin’s death came as a result of his freezing.

In other words, Vozrozhdenny observed intracranial hemorrhaging.  But, because the hemorrhaging was all external to the meninges, he concluded that it was, by itself, not life threatening.  However, it did incapacitate Slobodin outdoors in the freezing weather, hence, he determined Cause of Death to be hypothermia.

[Ehtnisba]

Устройство лабаз means building the labaz, not "device".
 
You can't even think about building a labaz. - this how I read it.

Yes, I agree. Tired as they were, it would be exhausting just to think about building such a structure. Not sure that it would qualify as exhausting to think about digging a hole in the snow.

In my language when you are tired we use expression like this" Not a word can be mentioned about doing it" , this is as I see it in Russian with this expressions. It doesn't mean you won't do it. If you must you will, if there is a chance to leave it for later than you leave it for later. So only djudging from me, I would have left non eatable heavy things, as easy as possible, in a pile around or hanging on a tree and f digging hole.  So the file documents labaz with tamburine, fire wood, skis in the forest for me is believable rather than digging on a slope exhausted, af and tent next. No way 😆

[amashilu]

I read somewhere that Rustem would have died very quickly after receiving that whack.

Do you mean Thibeaux-Brignolle instead?  Vozrozhdenniy determined his Cause of Death to be head trauma.  In contrast, recall what Vozrozhdenniy wrote regarding Rustem Slobodin:

The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma. When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. The absence of explicit bleeding under the meninges allows for the assumption that Slobodin’s death came as a result of his freezing.

In other words, Vozrozhdenny observed intracranial hemorrhaging.  But, because the hemorrhaging was all external to the meninges, he concluded that it was, by itself, not life threatening.  However, it did incapacitate Slobodin outdoors in the freezing weather, hence, he determined Cause of Death to be hypothermia.

No, I meant Rustem. And you found it: " ... it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing."   Thanks for finding that.

[GlennM]

From the comments recently posted, there is overwhelming consensus that Rustem ( and others) were alive while on the trail. There is consensus that it was indeed a trail as in a directional path. Additional supporting arguements for determining the direction of the three hikers has been added. It is clear to most that the trio's posture and Rustem's ice indicate a deliberate effort to climb the slope. The question of Rustem's head injury was brought up. It is of secondary importance. His friends would not drag his corpse up the hill and then each die subsequently in the process. It is clear that he moved himself in the direction of the tent and died in the attempt, whether he had a broken skull or not. This should firmly establish the existence of the tent on 1079. We may speculate with some assurance that the tent was safe to approach. We may then conclude that what caused them to leave the tent was transitory ( assassins would stick around, yes?).  The UCP which is transitory are weather induced events, animal attack, falling natural or man made objects. Finally,with regard to the idea that it was the labaz on 1079 and the tent in the forest, there is no practical reason for three injured hikers to travel such a distance uphill to retrieve less than what they had at their tent. Food, clothing and medical supplies were at the tent. It would be idiocy to not go to the tent if it were already in the forest. The tent was on the slope of 1079. No, inspite of the peculiarities of the UCP and their reaction to it, there was no staging post morten. There was no need because there was no conspiracy.

[tenne]

The question of Rustem's head injury was brought up. It is of secondary importance.

Considering the fact that:

 " Medical autopsy further states that Slobodin probably suffered loss of coordination due to initial shock right after the blow that could speed up his death from hypothermia.e,"

how is it secondary when he was found away from anything that could injure him? whatever cracked his skull directly influenced the way he fell so it is of primary importance to where he is and how he is facing.

[GlennM]

Tenne, I submit he was not alone on his hike and he was oriented to the tent. It is of primary importance.It confirms that (1) the tent was on 1079 (2) there was something worth getting (3) the UCF posed a lesser risk or no risk for the three who wanted to get to the tent. (4) he was alive when he finally succumbed to the elements (5) all behavior is motivated.He was motivated to get to the tent.

The fact that he and others were hurt is a consequence of leaving the tent. It is something that occurred secondarily. Leaving the tent was primary. I trust we are not going to explore the idea of Rustem suffering a cranial injury in the tent ,then walking a mile in the snow, only to turn around and go back.

That is the way I spin it. You are free to spin it your way too. Thanks for the comment.

[tenne]

so just to get this right, you believe the way his body was laying proves they set up the tent that night?

[GlennM]

Yes, glad to help.

[Ziljoe]

The question of Rustem's head injury was brought up. It is of secondary importance.

Considering the fact that:

 " Medical autopsy further states that Slobodin probably suffered loss of coordination due to initial shock right after the blow that could speed up his death from hypothermia.e,"

how is it secondary when he was found away from anything that could injure him? whatever cracked his skull directly influenced the way he fell so it is of primary importance to where he is and how he is facing.

We don't know if his cracked skull influenced the way he fell.

It suggests that the crack could have come from falling....not that he fell because he received a blow to the head.


"The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma. When this happened it would have caused Slobodin to become stunned and allowed for his rapid freezing. "

The crack of the skull could have been posthumous.

[GlennM]

So long as we have some agreement that Rustem was going somewhere when he succumbed. His direction as that of his companions are not headed to the forest behind them, not to the cache on their left. If there was a tent pitched in the woods,  they did not make for that either. His remains and those of his companions demonstrate that he and they were trying to attain the tent on 1079.. If we can all agree on that, then we can accept the major findings of the investigation and rule out the more exotic explanations for the injuries. Fights, murder, bombs and rockets sell books. Accidents happening while trying to survive are not so glamorous and worse still become a,criticism of the victims. Still, everything that happened to them all needs no further embellishment.